I have watched the threads on brake cylinders develop with alarm. What started as a request for help, sorted by Colin Springall, has revealed a shocking ignorance of basic Routemaster systems. Anyone who owns such a vehicle should bloo*y well own the manual and try reading it, along with the compendiums produced for OUR benefit by RMOOA. They would then know what brake fluid to put in the bus, and which hole to put it in. It absolutely shocks the hell out of me that people do not know these basic facts. How have people been checking and maintaining their brake systems since owning their buses if they don't know what or where to look at, or what to use?

So come on, how many people have topped up their brake systems with "universal brake fluid"? If you have, wait for every rubber seal on your bus to swell, split, allowing your bus to crash in potentially spectacular and fatal fashion.

People should try learning about the vehicles they own or desire to one day own, it's a steep learning curve, but if you don't, your apathy may prove fatal, and ignorance is not a mitigating circumstance in court.

Sorry to go off on one, to all those owners who do their business properly, but for the fly by nights, owning on a wing and a prayer, don't ever drive your vehicles on road anywhere near me or my family.

Well said (again) Steve!! Regardless of anything else, the fact that it says "OIL" on the flap ought to be an indication that brake fluid is not appropriate........

This is precisely why I asked for what should have been in Alan's entry.

It was clear that some simply don't know and new owners cannot all be experts

It's all very well being 'in the know' but this is life or death safety we are talking about and the correct fluids and their brand names and iso/BS/ec specs should be mentioned every time and not kept as some smug secret.

I completely agree. Every privately owned bus should not be sold without a basic manual and every cab should have a checklist of oils, fluids, fuse positions and ratings, bulb types, tyre pressures and so on that should be never removed. As should the carrying of a warning triangle, spare bulbs and a couple of hi-vis jackets.

Tony
You are completely missing the point. Nothing is being kept as any smug secret, all the information the owner could ever require is in the manual and in the compendiums, be it brake oil, gear oil, grease, flywheel oil or bloo*y elbow grease. It is up to the owner to get off their lazy ar*e and find out this information, the same as they have to find out tyre pressures, fluids and capacities or really important stuff like paint codes and number plate fonts.

And it certainly isn't up to the dealer who supplies the bus to provide novice owners with workshop manuals. If people want to own these vehicles they need to do their homework, put their hands in their pockets and buy a manual, or leave every aspect of the bus maintenance to a competant individual or company. It has been said before, these are 7.5 tonne killing machines in the wrong hands.

I don't think I am missing the point.
Cars, bikes and almost any item of transport can kill.
How many car owners know where to put the oil, screenwash and inflate the tyres?
How many know the difference between DoT3 and DoT4 brake fluid or what 20W50 means?

It's going to be the same for some bus owners too.

Point is, a bus including the RM is more specialised and whilst you and I might know what goes where and what it should be, it is hardly mainstream stuff.

All sorts of people now use Routemasters. PR companies, and pipe dreamers. Some love the nut's and bolt's stuff.
But others use them with hired in drivers and get them serviced by people with no experience.
Quite rightly Steve, It's scary.

Whether that's right or wrong is probably another argument but I do not think that holding back the name and type of correct fluids helps matters.

Tellus should be a synonymous with RM brakes as Hypoid is with car diffs.

Yes, every owner should have a manual but there is no quick online access for details for the trade like there is for a 1948 Land Rover or a Toyota Prius.
All I'm suggesting is that the correct fluids are referred to clearly so it is as clear and accessible to those who don't know.

Steve,



Tony has a very valid point. I have just looked through the manual and there is nothing regarding brake bleeding. In fact the manual was written for a reader that has more than the basic knowledge of the bus so anyone that has a bus and hasn't that basic knowledge will finish up more confused than when he/she started.



Writing plain english descriptions of how to carry out tasks will help those new owners quite a lot and give them a better understanding of their bus whether they do it themselves of have a suitable garage do it for them.



Standing on your soapbox and ranting won't help those new owners one iota but plain english descriptions will.



Regards



Claire

Yes Tony, maybe I should have made certain points in my reply a bit more openly understandable BUT I was in the belief that perhaps those who read, and kindly post as you do, that the operating system ++ Correct fluid in the brakes on our toys is understood by those who OWN the things.

Over multiple various times on here the ROUTEMASTER braking system has been explained etc etc until it SHOULD BE PRIME NOT SECONDARY KNOWLEDGE in the use and indeed safety of these toys .

So yes in public I'll put my hands up and admit to an assumming error of judgement - namely failing to make certain those who read the response actually knew what I was talking about, I assummed wrong.

I cannot help but agree with Mr Anderson when he says every owner should know OR LEARN FAST FROM DAY ONE about such things as vehicle brakes when taking ownership, if he has gone a bit 'OTT' It might be with good reason, possibly outside bus ownership as he has a wide ranging vehicle knowledge.

Perhaps we should all take this as a reminder note and share his concerns about such vital things as in todays 'Blame/Claim and indeed Shame' world we live in its no bad thing to be reminded of OUR RESPONSIBILITY to ALL those others on the roads INCLUDING PORTUGESE LORRY DRIVERS on the M6 !!!

As far as I'm aware to this day there has NOT YET been a FATAL CRASH INVOLVING a PRESERVED BUS, lets keep it that way with safe buses responsibly maintained and driven with pride of ownership irrespective of what it might look like and its safety in our hands overrides everything else.

Claire
My point was about correct fluids and where to put them, not about brake bleeding which I would not advise anyone who isn't sure of what to do to attempt. I have never done it on a bus, so can't comment on it.

This was prompted by posts asking what the correct brake "fluid" was, and where to put it.

Tony
We all know there are "technical owners" and "driver owners". One understands the bus (or tries to) the other does not even own a screwdriver and just drives the thing. The latter is fine provided the vehicle is regularly looked at by someone who knows what they're doing. The problem is when it is not. An owner with no manual, no tools, no knowledge, no planned maintenance and no idea what to do. This is a recipe for disaster. A bus is not a car, with a car many idiots cannot even change a wheel let alone take the head off to change the gasket. A bus is different, personally I don't think its acceptable that someone should be let loose without even a basic understanding of maintenance. This is up to the individual, their background, and their mechanical knowledge. Owners should at least know what to check before setting off on a long journey, and when carrying out those checks, what to do if something is amiss.

Steve, I am in total agreement with what you say.

With Routemasters now in all corners of the planet, it does beggar belief that so many have no knowledge of it's peculiarities and just use fluids that go in whatever else that's around.

My point is we should not be blase about being in the know as there are always those who want to know and are willing to learn and now that they cannot pop into an LT garage and find out have to rely on good clear accurate information.

This is the place to find it.

This is why I feel it is important to state the correct oil/brand every time.
For example, I know about Tellus oil but can't always remember which grade number. I have no idea what the alternatives are called.
The anti-freeze/coolant types also vary for different engines but I have to admit not being clear as to which type and brandnames should be used in what and avoided in what.
Sure it's monotonous for those in the know but we all have to start somewhere.

As for a manual, It's a shame there is not some kind of Haynes type manual. Using it's long tested style that is easy to grasp is a great entry level manual cheap enough to keep on on the bus. The proper manual, good as it is, does assume you already know a lot about mechanics.

Every car is sold with a handbook and usually a check card which lists all fluids and routine maintenance.

I do believe that with something as large and potentially dangerous as a bus should only ever be sold with such a handbook or reference card as part of the vehicle. Especially for export.
An accident is not desirable whether it be in the UK or anywhere else.

I agree absolutely with Steve,Tony and Alan on the subject of safety and making sure as owners that we take the time and trouble to learn about lubricants etc. It surprises me greatly that an owner may not have a copy of The New Routemaster Maintenance Manual, and even with its shortcomings in many sections it is essential reading. A good idea is to buy a pack of plastic sleeves (Staples etc) to keep the pages clean. I also bought another cover for the manual and divided the sections 1-16&17-35 as the pages take up more space with covers on. One of my first tasks after acquiring 2335 was to set up 2 files, one of which remains on the vehicle at all times. In the files are contained all the details of lubricants and where they go, along with telephone numbers of suppliers etc. A list of all the bulbs with location and wattage are also noted for reference, and a set of spare bulbs are carried and various sizes and lengths of cable in case of the need for a roadside repair to get you home. Whilst on the subject of electrical items, did any of you take any notice of Alan a few months ago when he made the very sensible suggestion that you obtain spare relays.
I do not carry a spare wheel, instead I carry the contact details for a major tyre fitting company, whom I would call immediately for assistance. I would suggest that if you do carry a spare wheel, make sure it is completely serviceable. Again in the 'drivers file' is a copy of the jacking point locations, handy if someone without RM experience has to jack the bus up.
A further essential requirement is for you to carry out a walk round check before driving your bus anywhere, check all exterior lamps are working. It is common sense mostly, does the vehicle look safe, are the tyres ok, the glasswork free from cracks etc etc etc!. When using your vehicle at night make sure you can be seen, upgrade to halogen headlights, increase the wattage of tail/stoplamps. These are simple yet effective ways to increase your safety and the vehicles safety at little cost.

Ed

I originally posted the question as I thought it might be a good idea if Sam had put a brief description of what Colin the Doc told him was the correct procedure of how to bleed the brakes. I also pointed out that Routemasters are quite complex vehicles and any commercial garage working on them should only do so with the correct information.

Over the last 30 years I have been responsible for maintaining an assortment of trucks and plant machinery none of which are the same as a Routemaster but in some cases are a lot more complex. As the saying goes a mechanic who thinks he knows it all actually knows nothing!

My main business now specialises in Land Rovers from new to very old. We constantly get people, including other garages, asking our advice of how to best carry out certain work, even though there are of course manuals, these will not always tell them the best or the quickest way of doing something, therefore talking to us can save somebody a hell of a lot of time. Which brings me back to the point that after being away from the computer for the weekend I was flabbergasted to find some of the unhelpful nonsense that was being written.

In response for a request for simple information from myself and others we get smart ar**d questions about how many of us don't know what we are doing and have dangerous buses.

If the forum reacts in this way every time someone asks a question then it is going to make people frightened to ask, which leaves only the manual and no first hand experience. As there are experienced people out there, such as the Doc, this would be a great shame. For example the threads went off at a complete tangent about which fluids to use after Alan had simply, quiet rightly, pointed out that if you topped up the system by putting ordinary break fluid in you would contaminate the the whole sytem and wreck all the seals. Simply having an answer to a question would be nice without having the "I'm alright jack" attitude.

As John Morris has suggested, if anybody thinks it is a good idea, then when I next have my vehicle on a ramp I am more than happy to do a demonstration on the break bleeding procedure listing the correct fluids and their equivalent and I will also include checking and recharging the accumulators. I could post this on You Tube for future reference.

I do take the point and completely agree that there are some buses that probably are unsafe and do not come up to scratch as I do know of some owners who have not touched their buses mechanically at all - not even serviced - since they were withdrawn from service. When I was looking for an RM myself I came across one RM and an RML which both had flag drop as soon as you applied the breaks and one of these was actually used for commercial use. In both cases I was told flag dropping was "nothing to worry about" and in fact the accumulator clunk was nothing to do with the breaks. The accumulators were clunking every 30 seconds and I was told that it was simply that the power steering fluid needed changing and there was nothing wrong with the breaks!!

I initially tried to source somebody who would have more knowlege of a Routemaster than me, I failed miserably as I could not find anybody who knew anything about them. For those of us who are not in the London area we do not have the advantage of using local expert knowledge.

I will finish on this point - Any competent mechanic or owner who does his homework properly, which is most imperative, is able to keep their bus safely on the road as they are not over complicated just very well engineered vehicles which need to be treated with the respect they deserve and maintained properly on a regular basis.

Martin D

Yes ok its Brakes & breaks as in the Last post.

I think i need Break myself.
MartinD

Martin

The comments made were only highlighting certain points that it was felt owners should already be aware of, and you have indicated that you viewed 2 vehicles with 'flag drop' before purchasing yours. Therefore a degree of ignorance must exist amongst quite a few owners. I agree a full answer should be given when someone asks a question like Sam did, and you may find the answer as in this case is given off forum by Colin or another experienced person. It is surprising that with the number of owners out there, relatively few questions are asked. I do not see the harm of individuals speaking their minds, but acknowledge it may come across in such a way that prevents some owners contributing to the discussion for fear of being made to look foolish. The question of brake bleeding is an interesting one, and I have not done it myself on a Routemaster. I am quite happy to be made to look a fool, so as the system is a full flow type, I assume the engine has to be running and with someone in the cab to operate the brake pedal the bleeding is carried out starting at the rear brake cylinders first, then moving to the front. With the oil capacity of the reservoir, I suppose you will not have to keep topping it up during the procedure as you do on a smaller vehicle. It will though be essential to have regard to safety with the pressure of the oil in the system. Perhaps now one of the more experienced guys will enlighten me as to how it is done properly, in more detail.
It is not uncommon for discussion to go off on a tangent, again there is nothing wrong with this, it adds to the general liveliness of the forum as a whole, and if it makes us think a bit more then that is a good thing.

Ed

"As the saying goes a mechanic who thinks he knows it all actually knows nothing!"

Oh Boy, there are a lot of them about! They can always do the job in half the time. Arrogant, useless idiots who of course NEVER make mess of anything, and if something does go wrong then it was always someone else's fault.

If you are sitting behind the wheel you must naturally be pig ignorant and require a lecture from him on the Highway Code: specifically the "section on steering" which states that pommel handles on the steering wheel are illegal. Now I hate these things and was pleased to see it removed, but it comes under VOSA not DSA.

He was a bit upset, as I'd just made him lie in three inches of slush underneath the trailer to repair the side marker light wiring and he'd been scratching his head and blown the fuse.

Martin ,
Fully agree with your comments !
I think it would be an excellent idea if you could possibly put your RM on the ramps and produce some sort of video . Why not take it a bit further and get it on to a cd , perhaps if rmooa were approached they could assist and fund some of the costs of doing it , make good use of some of the cash in the bank ! I'm sure most of us would only be too glad of some sort of cd we could use for reference and be willing to contribute to the cost.

Mark 2391

Thanks to ED the first inklings of how to do it in understandable english so abhorred by so called fitters who only consult the manual after they've cocked every thing up. Fitters don't read manuals 'cos they know it all!

SNIP from ED:
... so as the system is a full flow type, I assume the engine has to be running and with someone in the cab to operate the brake pedal the bleeding is carried out starting at the rear brake cylinders first, then moving to the front. With the oil capacity of the reservoir, I suppose you will not have to keep topping it up during the procedure as you do on a smaller vehicle. It will though be essential to have regard to safety with the pressure of the oil in the system.


Well 'experts' lets have some more in readable english please

Regards

Claire

Hi All

What a fantastic discussion!

As I have posted years! before, if you don't maintain pressure in the accumulators and you suffer an engine 'stop' for any reason (and even diesels driven through auto gearboxes can stop sometimes) you will have no brakes!!!!

Likewise, as I have posted years! before, there is another safety issue with the RM which really needs to be understood by all those who drive them. The absence of a 'PARK' facility on the transmission (a dog clutch arrangement to lock the transmission when the vehicle is stationary) means that the only thing that will arrest the motion of the vehicle (apart from a convenient kerb) is the hand brake. (Leaving it 'in gear' has no effect on an automatic and, in any case, the gearbox on an RM is air operated so could not be relied upon to stay in gear as air pressure leaks away over time.

So, putting these nuggets of information together it is possible to deduce that maintenance of the parking brake mechanism takes on a whole new level of importance!

Like Claire, I have found the Maintenance Manual very interesting but missing a trick in key areas.

Looking at safety in general, the first thing we did with RML2603 was put her in for a Class VI test. Having bought the bus the next objective was to make sure it was a safe bus and, dare I say it, a complete bus. We had bought ours from a reputable company so we didn't have any real concerns but there is no substitute for a test. After changing a couple of light bulbs she passed!

The liveliness of the discussion on this subject shows that there is a lot of interest. So let's get the information flowing. One of the things about clubs (thank goodness ours is not a club but an Association!!!! ) is that they can polarize into the 'knows' and the 'know-nots'. Quite why this should be is a mystery. Isn't the objective of a club the enjoyment of one's chosen hobby and exchange of information and expertise to assist others in the same? As it says in a recent car commercial in relation to some of us who show road rage: Aren't we all simply trying to get somewhere?

Cheers!

John

BTW Not only do we have the highest RM in the world but I think we have the only RM which has been shot! I was doing some target shooting a few weeks back and a ricochet from a 1911 .45 hit the bus shed. Fortunately, the shed was hit in the corner steel seam where it is strongest and so no fragments went through, I think. But it just shows how careful one has to be.

Hi,

Quick note to Ed -

My posting certainly wasn't aimed at you as your posting wasn't there when I started mine. Took me so long to do it by the time I posted it yours was already on there so it looked as though I was actually replying to you, sorry if it looked that way. What you said, and a lot of the others, made good sense. I guess we are all a little bit odd to own these buses in the first place and that is probably why passions run a bit high but at the end of the day we all want the same things - to keep these great iconic vehicles on the road safely.

Mark -

Thanks for your kind words. My bus does actually have its own website but I won't list it here as obviously it breaks the rules of the forum (but there is a clue in this posting).

All -

It could be a good idea to create a separate website, which I would be happy to do for no charge, where you could have detailed pictures and instructions how to do certain things. Obviously I would need the people with the right expertise to contribute as sadly I do not know it all, far from it. This would be purely a technical website for maintenance information which could be built up over a period of time.

I await your thoughts.

Martin D

Hiya all



That sounds like a brilliant idea and will enable those that shy away from posting on here for whatever reasons to have a go!

(edited by me C.))



Regards



Claire

Martin

That is a very good idea, and we have had similar very useful knowledge placed on the South Devon Railway website referring to work carried out on RM1872. The more information from experience gained by others and shared is perhaps one of the most important factors for private ownership, and for those companies purchasing a Routemaster for promotional or other types of work.
Unfortunately we do not have the benefit of a Haynes type manual, and a long while ago I was in contact with their publishing group questioning whether the Routemaster might be a good subject for a manual. The final letter I received was signed by John Haynes himself, and in it he explained that they did not have the facilities for it to be kept inside a building. Having quickly looked at the manual they have produced on the Spitfire, it just reinforces how interesting a Routemaster manual from Haynes would have been.
The Walker manual is good, but is more of a condensed version of the LT maintenance manual.
There is a lot of discussion about safety critical systems of the vehicle and rightly so, but in private ownership the individual has to be pro active in seeking out locally based workshops where work can be carried out. Much of the 'basic' maintenance can be tackled by the average owner, but this does not negate the responsibility to have the vehicle checked over by someone more knowledgeable. That for me is a good excuse to make a 600 mile round trip to the RM 'Doc', so that an expert eye can be cast over it and an accurate MOT pass gained.

Ed

I've read this post with mild interest.

All these comments I have echoed form the day I brought my RML. Strangely I find that I'm distancing myself from the general ownership crowd, because of the b@llocks I've heard over, the down right stupidity and ignorance over the last couple of years from other owners.

I was 16/17 when I stupidly purchased my first vehicle, BL49. I had not the foggiest on what to do with it, nay could I drive the bloody thing. I was lucky that I had enough connections to get into a bus depot, then finally Wandsworth Bus Garage when I worked there. Only then was I able to even get any advice on mechanical issues.

Roll that on to 2003/4 when I finally took ownership of my big red girlfriend, "Wow, what do I do with it? Sh!t!!!"

Only then did the fullest weight of owning a classic vehicle drop on my shoulders. As a former Traffic Manager, and Assistant Operating Manager at London Coaches. I was full PCV'd and understood the rules and regs about operating a bus. But I question how many owners, do proper walk round checks, log the mileage, and keep a defect checklist book? I never leave without this basic check, just incase VOSA stop me, the evidence of basic driver inspection is there.
Moving along, how many owners keep basic maintainance logs? Every bit of work to my vehicle is logged, and kept with it's documents for arse covering and a historical reference. When she was given an extended rota check, greasing, and componant replacements. Everything logged.
How many owners know how to grease their motor up, or where the 200+ grease points are on an Routemaster?

I know I'm sounding sanctomonious but it sounds to be a given that, oh it's MOT time the once a year check up, it'll get through...

I've learnt bloody quickly how to do things, and do them properly at my own cost. I'd recommend other owners get on the band wagon and learn too.

Good luck with your big toys everyone!

Liam

It would be a shame if you distanced yourself from the 'general ownership crowd' as you have a lot to offer in the way of encouraging others with the benefit of your experience gained so far. We older ones need younger guys to take more interest in the ownership movement, it is the only way the Routemasters are going to survive. There is always a certain amount of 'b@llocks' in every walk of life, but you just have to see through it and except that not everyone approaches things in the same way, or has the same level of knowledge that you possess.
I agree with all you comment on the subject of vehicle checks, but it would seem that only a few owners are involved in a professional way, and their ownership of a Routemaster is viewed much like owning a classic car would be. The idea of keeping records is a very good one, and I do so myself but what is needed is encouragement and more advice from the RMA to members. Why don't you for instance produce a list of all the 200+ grease point locations, that would be really helpful. With regard to the MOT, it probably is the only time of the year that does tend to focus an owners attention more and fingers crossed hope it will pass. I do not think you are being sanctimonious, rather it shows the interest you have in the subject and thats what we need from the younger owners.

Ed

There's a myriad of what people own a Routemaster for (or any other bus)

For some it's the bit of history, others the appreciation of an engineering era lost in Britain, for others its a toy which provides endless hours of fun cranking destination blinds.
Each to there own, I suppose.

But, when it comes to road use, restoring or maintaining, what Keiran and others say is true. Too much stuff and nonsense is spouted around and getting the facts, correct information and techniques is far harder than it should be.

Above all common sense and safety should come first.

I've been amazed at some who won't even carry a safety kit because it's not original. (even though most of their bus is not original either!!

A small kit of an collapsable warning cone (from Lidl for less than £5) Hi vis vests, spare fuses and light bulbs, a torch , at least one wheel chock, a basic tool kit that fits the most likely items and so on is all simple easy to stow stuff. A spare wheel is the only real bugbear.
A full log book for each vehicle and details of fluids and where to put them would also be simple common sense. Hardly rocket science.

Hi All



As the saying goes: There are old pilots and there are bold pilots but there are no old, bold pilots.

No substitute for safety and uncommon sense.

Have a nice day!

John

Hi Liam,
Just to echo Ed's comments , how about sharing your info on the forum or even do an article for the rmooa mag (they allways want articles) .
At least it will help those that don't know and be a good refresher/reminder for those that do know . Its simple jobs like this that the vast majority of owners should be able to do given the correct info.
Please give it a try

Mark 2391

hi all the rm braking system is continuos flow on the front half of the system so the old way in the garages that i know about was with engine running top the tank up well over the mark then place a hammer under the dash board wedging the brake pedal down about halfway then go off for lunch for 45 minutes to an hour then when you get back you only have to do the 2 rear wheel cylinders which you can do with the hammer still in place.there are many ways to skin a cat but this is the way that was used in all the lt garages i've experence of which is quite a few.hope this will help a few of you regards tim.

Tim's method works very well. What is important however is that the pedal must NOT be fully applied.