This photo was kindly sent to me on 10th MARCH 2009, I was asked not to publish until a certain date. It is RM 5 very nearly finished with all her rebuild work, there are bits and pieces remaining to fully complete the job so here for the first time is the bus, I hope you all enjoy it ..

I take it that the chrome rear wheel trims are merely to sparkle in the sunshine!
Yes looks very good

she looks stunning i cant wait to c her and give her my love after many years of travling on her on the 29 38 73 and the last 159

What a cracker! I was expecting "She looks the nuts!" from James but this one is obviously REALLY special, eh James?! The chrome trims are puzzling - what's all that about? - shouldn't it be dustbin lids?

Roy ,

There are special reasons for the rear wheel trims - actually from a COACH - which I'll go into later. They are NOT so obvious on the finished bus which I've seen recently.

WOW !! Park Royal would be very proud of this I'm sure.
Shame about the wheel trims -as already mentioned, but that must be down to not being able to get original spec' tyre's so they've used those horrid metric wheels - if thats the only concession then so be it. Otherwise it looks bloody fantastic!

A really, really, REALLY nice, sensitive restoration. Arriva are to be congratulated, and everyone involved should be rightly proud of their efforts.

BUT! If originality was truly being aimed for, can I offer the following, which are in NO WAY criticisms, just observations from first day in service shots of other RMs. (the rear wheel trims have already been mentioned)

1. Split rims. But I suppose these were replaced for ease of tyre replacement, although 900s are still available if you look.

2. The bonnet handle and its 4 bolt body should be chrome, not polished brass.

3. Why have chromed sidelamp rims and painted headlamp rims? Either/or, of course red is original.

4. Origional mirrors...of course, like rocking horse poo now.

5. The legal lettering on my photos is on two lines, but "centered" rather than "aligned left".

6. Original photos again show the legend "Speed: 30MPH" adjacent to the legal lettering, which is missing here.

7. Is the mesh in the brake grilles correct? It appears the same as the grille in the photo, this may be just an illusion.

8. The front grille.....originals the same as the mirrors now of course....it appears painted silver rather than stainless steel, is it a modified "later" grille, as it appears to stick forward too much.


These are not criticisms, so please don't take them as such. (I know Arriva people use this forum), its just that when no doubt such a huge amount of time and money has been spent, which is to be massively applauded, some little detail changes could make it even better!

PS- forgot to add the pressed aluminium number plates, transfers on black would be much better.

After that, anyone is welcome to come and criticize and nitpick my bus to their hearts content, Arriva included, its far from perfect, and will be at Manchester on Sunday!

Well worth the wait indeed, certainly raided the piggy bank didn't they. Yes there are a few details slightly wrong, but looks a hell of alot better than before when carrying arriva logos. Do you reckon if i swap the number plates over from mine they would notice, probably yes. Will be nice to see in person, perhaps North Weald? Although i think there will be no chance of getting near with all the photographer's shouting abuse for there usual desired alien landscape photo of course! (Maybe i should stand in background with my high vis vest on, haha...)

O, and nice to see the upper plain windows too...

Many observations here are correct and as I said I'll do a complete story of how WE became involved ++ our contribution of information and parts sourcing for the project in an RMA newsletter for the future.

Suffice it to say here that at some time during the project time SOME LOWLIFE SCUMBAG STOLE the ORIGINAL Style radiator GRILLE STRAIGHT FROM OFF THE BUS which does not help so imagine the dissapointment of Arriva as that was a cherished item ... IT SEEN or IF TURNS UP AT SOME RALLY ON A ROUTEMASTER BUS ------- be warned IT WAS IDENTITY MARKED !! with what and where is for those who need to know and the thief to worry about !! Remember ALL Arriva London garages HAVE 24 HOUR CCTV AND THEY DO WORK...

The other part I will tell you about is the WHEELS which have been so observed as different -- In order to keep the bus as SAFE as possible the entire wheel set have been changed to 1000x20 tubeless tyres so the split rims have gone. The rear wheel embellishers as seen are purely there enabling the fitting of 'dustbin lids' which do not fit the new wheel sizes, A coachmaker made the binlids spiders and had to extend them by approx 1.5 >> 2 inches to include the welds so that the lids would fit the rims as closely as possible, so what you now see is NOT fully what you see when the lids are in place, then you will only see a bright metal rim working with the lids to complete the wheel centre coverup . This does in no way look odd or even out of place , personally I think having seen the completed item it does look 'the nuts ' , courtesy of our James.

You have to fully appreciate that some genuine original parts / items are simply not available any more, even Arriva could not find the wanted stuff and so with the huge amount of research including many visits to LT Museum archives by the project managers that has gone into this bus rebuild as such then what has been achieved is without doubt a credit in no uncertain terms to the numbers of companies / individuals + Arriva for undertaking the project to get to this level of effort.

I am aware of some of the major companies who have been involved and indeed the full local input from Arriva primarily in their South London garages and one of the 3 most important garages being ARRIVA ENFIELD for the magnificent paint job they've achieved.

Its inevitable that many will question this and argue about that BUT remember this level of rebuild has never been undertaken to this extent before so the finished bus will contain some things of question so if those who know care to think about it then you will know one major debate point has not yet been identified which is ?????????????????? I'll leave that open for now , just enjoy whats been done and try to learn something from it if you are interested.

Great to see the (almost) finished article. Apart from the very small exceptions named above, it's a wonderful job and the explanation regarding the wheels from Al makes sense. Also, what a shame that the lowlife scum have nicked the original radiator grille. Let's hope that greed gets the better of them and they try to sell it at some point.

I think that this restoration is truly exceptional and I have no doubt that the minor points raised earlier will be gradually attended to wherever possible.

One final request Al, is there any chance of some pics of the interior just out of interest?

Hi Alan

Some time ago you had a moan about posters putting piccys on the site that were too big and therefore making it difficult to read the text accompanying them.

Now your doing exactly the same and whilst piccys are nice, for those of us that can read and write English, being able to read the text is a tad more important.

Therefore can the piccy sizes be limited to a size that does not expand the page size please.

Regards

Claire

i cant wait to c it at the ltm also dose anyone or alan knows where it be garaged beacsue i dont like her being down south when she is north london rm

Claire ,

Thanks , I know exactly what you say and yes I also experienced that very phenomenon of TEXT outrunning the picture size ... That wa annoying for at the time I had a small screen of jusy 14 inch .... So eventually off I went and bought a super APPLE IMAC dual core processor machine with a huge - by comparison - 20 inch screen and NOW no size problem as its all on the screen .. BUT that doesn't get over your hickup of size same as I had.. All I can do is either resize down a bit OR it is also cleverly resized down automatically in the PHOTO BUCKET website to a predetermined maximum 1 megaByte size before I post it ... at this time the size is just right for PHOTO BUCKET as it did the automatic resize not me ..

James , Thanks for the observation , unfortunately for you RM 5 will stay in her South London home for some considerable time yet so make the most of everytime you see the bus out and about ..

Steve , Once I begin the article as mentioned I have been promised some EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS taken during the rebuild that may never reach the public and that will be like ice cream in the summer == just right

EVERYONE .......

The 'sponsor' of RM 5 is happily reading the your forum and enjoying the variety of comments being made so far .. Thankyou from the 'sponsor'

I thought I would take a back seat this time as daring to point out details on near perfect restorations seems to upset people!
So I'm glad to see so many others have a keen eye and have picked the small details out, including a few I had not known about.

It's a shame about the wheels but there is logic behind the reason and safety has to always be paramount. A good set of split rims and tyres
can always be sourced later and used for shows.
That said, split rims in top condition and decent tyres are just as safe.
The grille is such a shame, Having had parts stolen off a bus I was restoring, I know how infuriating it can be and I, along with others
have mentioned several times, the importance of marking easily removed parts from buses. Having rebuilt several original grilles for people
in the past, I might be able to help solve that in the winter. Someone must know who is doing this as I am beginning to think that it must
be the same individuals doing this.

I would love to know the full extent of the rebuild and trust that there are a set of good images fully documenting it which will be
valuable for all interested in doing anything to their buses.

Nonetheless, the quality of work looks excellent and hat's off to all those who have contributed.

I was studying the photo of '5' again earlier this evening, i've now saved it as my screensaver! Something i did notice was the blinds, set in early block capitals for the via points. I believe this is correct for when these vehicles were first introducted? I'm far too young to remember back then of course.. Do i win a gold star Alan? I do hope the understair destination blind box is still there as well. Some of you have probably noticed what i have done to solve that one on mine..
I can't believe she going to be a resident of South London. Thats just not on. As James said being a North of the river bus and all that. I do remember seeing her often parked up in the entrance of Palmers Green garage with the RNLI adverts many moons ago when i was a lad, passing on the North Circular on the 102's. No not on a RM, but a Metro..
Nice to know will have dustbin lids fitted (at special times i would have thought?) I totally understand the opinion of more modern wheels too.
Roll on the first event then to have a ride on??

why why why all that money wrong wheels which is very offensive wrong number plates pollished bonnet handle when it should be chromed.don't get me wrong it's nice someones making the effort but what annoy's is in years to come there's a danger someone will think it's a faithfull restoration and it's not.not even nearly.sorry to burst the bubble guys and girls.regards tim.

Tim, i will lend you my spare tin hat mate. I sense you might need it with the incoming..

This is something that has been mentioned before - as those that remember the correct visual look disappear off the scene and knowledge is lost, buses get altered either through lack of original parts availability or innocence and everyone starts arguing over what portrays the true original look (how many remember the correct spec for RT's now ?) - at least we have the Ken Blacker bibles - It's possible the the wheels have been changed as Arriva's tyre contractor can't entertain tubed tyres anymore - especially roadside punctures ?

Mark , Tim ,

Its rational for what you say BUT you must clearly understand that first and foremost it has NEVER been said this is 100% original rebuild to ORIGINAL SPECIFICATION as thats impossible. What has been done is something that has NEVER been attempted or achieved before and will probably never be done again so live with it.

There is precisely NO vaild reason that anyone can address for insisting on historic SPILT RIM wheels which can be extemely dangerous in more ways than one , age and physical condition being prime consideration , this case has been proven on many occasions, reason why so many buses had theirs replaced years ago + tyre size availability .

The number plate issue is irrelevant when compared to the rest of the bus and yes consideration was given to using a style very similar that of yesteryear that is well documented, one simple reason its been done with pressed alli is the rest of ARRIVAS heritage fleet are likewise treated so keeps that trend.

These wide varying observations are no doubt going down very well with all those who have read the story so far so please keep it coming but remember what I've said in para' 1 and please enjoy the skills / time / effort / enthusiasm thats been aimed at this unique project.

All the information I have given was offered to me as a thankyou for keeping those of you who knew something was going on but not exactly what + dispelling 'sale of RM 5' 'rumours and for the overall way this forum has dealt with this project and your responses.

I think it looks superb, what's the problem if something isn't quite original, it's their bus and they can do what they like with it!

It's a great shame some people always have to look for the little wrong things in a restoration rather than how good the whole thing looks.

It would be interesting to know how many of those who have criticised the finished result actually own a fully restored preserved bus themselves?!?

Gary

Mark - you are quite correct re the destination blinds, as the early RMs would certainly have been fitted with Upper Case 'via' blinds. The lower case versions weren't introduced until early in 1961. As I'm a tad older than you, I do remember seeing RMs with these blinds, although obviously they were old ones which were well looked after rather than new ones - most vehicles had the lower case versions and it was always a point of interest to see the old Upper Case ones occasionally. As regards RM 5, I guess that she has the correct rear blind showing - i.e. number and 'via' points as per the side blind. The large number only blinds didn't come about until much later.

Tim - I know where you're coming from but I think you're being a little harsh in saying that it's not even nearly a close restoration. Steve A, myself and one or two others have pointed out some small points, some of which Al has explained the reasons behind but let's get them a chance - ti's very early days and I'm sure that given time - and having read this forum - that as many of these details will be corrected in the months to come. Personally, I am very impressed with this restoration and whilst we know that it isn't quite 100%, it's a bl**dy good effort.

One detail that I really do like are the adverts. I can't tell from the pic, but are these hand painted?

Its also a shame that people cannot respond to critique in a sensible way.
I always think that there are 2 types of criticism, neither of which the recipient may wish to hear, but completely different in their intent. First is positive, constructive criticism, which is aimed to help and inform, and maintain or raise standards. This is what I have tried to offer. The other type is offensive criticism which is purely to condemn, and offers no solutions. Then there is also the frankly oddball comments about which garage the restored vehicle is to be kept in. Does it make an iota of difference? Good lord, what would have been the response if Arriva were to transfer the bus to its North West division and base it at Laird Street garage in Birkenhead?!

While no-one has said it was aimed at being 100% origional, the degree of accuracy attained in some areas, (blinds, top deck windows, fleet number font etc etc), IN MY OPINION is slightly let down by details such as the legal lettering, bonnet handle, painted and chromed lamp surrounds and so on. These details could have been sorted with the same attention to detail as has been applied in other areas. A conservative estimate could put the cost of the rebuild at £150,000 in terms of man hours spent on the project so small details make big differences in ensuring the finished result "looks right".

My personal pet hate is pressed aluminium numberplates which have no place on a routemaster.

I have never said my vehicle is 100% origional, it has a Scania engine for a start! It will be at the Manchester museum on Sunday, feel free to come and constructively criticise it to your hearts content, you will find plenty you don't like I'm sure!.

As I said before, Arriva and everone concerned are to be congratulated for spending time and money on the vehicle. I only hope that as many young people as possible, particularly apprentices, the lifeblood of our skills base, had the opportunity to work on the project to ensure the skills are passed to new generations rather than being just the "old hands" who knew how to work on Routemasters!

I'm sorry but I have to say this.

Firstly, this is not to dress down the obvious hard work that people have done. The bus looks superb. but....

It is not impossible to carry out a full visual restoration of a Routemaster. It may not be easy, it might involve painstaking searches and attention to detail, but it is not as difficult as some classic cars and other buses.
Several private owners have achieved this, inside and out and some with minimal resources.


What is understandable is a total restoration to original as that would in theory entail removing all the 1000 odd modifications carried out along a 50 year timeline.
That would compromise safety, reliability and probably would be impossible for sourcing some parts. (and maintaining them).

Obviously it's a lot easier for those with a bus removed from service many moons ago than with a later one to return to original, as many more prominent mods were recent.
RM5 had been a show bus at AD for a long time and was fairly original in appearance for quite some time.

Clearly, like one or two other buses of late, great lengths or expense have been reached for, to achieve 'good as new' restoration.

But, if it is intended to depict a period and style why are certain simple to get right details changed when other details are painstakingly reproduced?

The number plates are one example. Production RM plates were always simple white on black transfers and always in one particular font.
It can be done, the East London Heritage RMs carry the correct font plates as do several privately owned RMs including those with the early larger font.
Alan and myself have even source the original manufacturer, identified the font and the sizes. It will cost to update the production method but it can be done.

Stolen/missing and unavailable components are a different issue. They can always be put right as and when.
The correct grille is the same as currently as on RM1 with a thicker trim surround with a dull silver trim.

Split rims are only dangerous if mishandled or in poor condition. Properly maintained and fitted they are safe enough for VOSA to approve.
But from a regular use aspect, for a class 6 this may be a safer option and at least trims and dustbin lids will hide the difference as best as possible.
I have not seen RT/RF owners having this issue - I may be wrong.

Again, like a bus I mentioned a few weeks back, the standard is really high and the detail so very, very close, I cannot understand quite why these little details get altered.
The information is out there and dated photographs exist for almost every aspect.

Another classic example of no matter how much restoration work is carried out by whoever, it will never completely match up to the original in every aspect of detail. I am curious to know whether in fact there is a Routemaster out there that is claimed by all the experts to be 100% original in appearance. Does it matter so much, when the result of this particular restoration gives so much pleasure to most who view it. Arriva will like any commercial company still operate within the restrictions of the Health&Safety Act, with this in mind it is not surprising that they have a set of new metric wheels fitted with the correct tyres. I for one do not like split rim wheels, they are potentially dangerous, more so if many years old. We should be thankful Arriva have put the time and effort into RM5, in particular as they are a frontline service operator with numerous public responsibilities but have carried this work out with total enthusiasm.
This thread has been very interesting to read, however from my observations at Wisley there are some who would have you think they have all the knowledge, but strangely the appearance of their own vehicles does not quite match up their rhetoric. I would not wish to upset anyone with my comments, but lets remember not to expect 100% for vehicles all the time, just enjoy RM5 for what it is and the work that has been carried out on it by craftsmen.

What a load of old rubbish about safety and traditional wheels. Every bus, coach and lorry ran on these for over 60 years in the UK.

The only reason for the change was the invention of tubeless tyres and well based rims for commercials that were and are cheaper than traditional tyres with their tubes and flaps fitted to 3 piece wheels.

The owners of this bus run a fleet using tubeless tyres and as this bus has to earn its keep in that fleet its no different to any other bus they own and if the owners are using road safety as an excuse to keep operating and maintenance costs down its a poor excuse for one of the many anomalies apparent in the presentation of this bus.

The craftsmen that did the work made a very good job but whoever directed the work did not pay enough attention to detail which would have made such a difference to its overall presentation. Very much spoiling a good ship for a haporth of tar.

As a working bus in a heritage fleet it looks very good, as a restoration to original condition it falls very short on the visible detail of the period.


Claire

RM5 shares the problem with most Routemaster restorations that the current body is not the original. According to Ian's Bus Stop, RM5 is currently body B319, which when new as RM319 would have had opening upper deck front windows.

Body B5 is currently RM47 (GVS492), which is in a slightly sorry state overseas, as seen athttp://britishbusesabroad3.fotopic.net/c767421.html

Having said that, as a non-owner I applaud all efforts to put surviving RMs in such beautiful shape, as shown by RM5 here, it really does look great.

Phil.

for those who don't know my back ground i spent over ten years restoring classic cars and nearly two years restoring an rm which is i'm glad to say more historicly correct as to me it's the attenion to detail that matters.but i feel everyone has missed my point the money they've spent it should be right.and why bother going to the trouble of putting plain windows back in it and then leaving those they notice as much as the window 13 foot up in the air i'm sorry i'm gutted as i had high expectations for the money but other than changing the grill and putting the wrong mesh in the brake cooling grills it looks much like it did at worthing when i last saw it.regards tim.

Thanks Phil for the observation over and above some of the other rhetoric, Eds word and rightly so.

For those think they know .... here are 2 FACTS you probably don't know

1] yes RM 5s BODY is not its original as this was fitted with OPENING FRONT TOP windows being higher numerically than 254 in RM sequence.

2] RM 47 carries BODY 5 so kindly donated its top front CLOSED plain WINDOWS AND RM 5 was the receiver of them == this simple swap that was done many years ago before RM 47 was condemned for SCRAP by NORWOOD garages then engineering manager for the following reason .. the bus had a nasty habit of causing premature uneven wear [from memory believed nearside] on one of the front tyres, nothing to do with any of the following -- shocks / springs / suspension in general / alignment / steering gear OR EVEN LOOSE BODY BOLTS causing unnnecessary vibration, during its later life at Norwood and based on the numbers of buses being sold on or scrapped by whats was left of LT then rather than go get another 'BOAT' from Southall or Fulwell and do an exchange on the bus then because RMs were generally coming out of service left right and centre, at whoever was the last resting place at the time RM47 WITH BODY 5 WAS OFFICIALLY SENT FOR SCRAP . The story changes again ... those at the 'resting place' gave the bus the 'usual' viewing with scrapping in mind as per instructions from 'N' Garage engineering manager the bus was reprieved and found its way into the SALES LIST regardless of the fact that it was knackered at the front end which was highlighted in the scrap note giving the order to scrap.

So boys and girls RM 47 with body 5 is very nearly alive with this knackered 'Boat' having found its way to its current home when in fact it should have been scrapped years ago, apart from the Boat refferrd to the bus was in good condition in other respects.

As regards the current bus and its 'restoration' , many can critise all they like .... those with most to say are also those with least FACTUAL KNOWLEDGE of the work and effort that has gone into this project and to be fair I don't have the fullest of info --- yet

I was more than honoured to be asked on behalf of the Routemaster Associations membership and as a member of the committee if WE could help with this project and our combined input has been extremely well received certainly by some of ARRIVAs TOP ENGINEERING MANAGERS so please do not belittle this effort especially if it contains the SKILLS YOU PERSONALLY DO NOT POSSESS combined with knowledge you think you have. The Project manager is a TIME SERVED LT trained engineering former apprentice who was and has worked in many garages so knows RMs as well as our DOC but unlike Doc chose to move into management some years back, his hours of research in the LT MUSEUM ARCHIVES have paid off magnificently and I for one am proud to have done my part combined with much appreciated help from Our Brian Lewer and the archive info we have used to great effect...

and finally .... the side adverts are VINYL as are all - the first side ones applied failed to stick as there was something wrong with what was used and they were remade this time they have stuck. Due purely to the original companies adverts being copyrighted which would have been good to use they could not so an alternative was found to be suitsble ..

I think there is absolutely no doubt a lot of work has gone into this bus and the results look splendid even if some details differ from spec.

But it cannot be described as it has been in several quarters as a 'restoration to original'.

In part, this is because RM5 was, and has been for quite a long time, a garage restored showbus and not a bad one at that.

But also, this also cannot be held up as an accurate restoration as obviously it visually isn't quite. This muddies the water, making it harder for those who are striving to get their projects as accurate as physically possible.
and there are several out there that are good benchmarks.

There are already arguements over accuracy of details and I am quite surprised at how many memories are fading and the reluctance of many to open their eyes, and do their homework, which,
given the wealth of accurately dated and captioned photographs on this bus type, is a lot easier than for many other vehicles. This is why real benchmark(s) is (are) needed, that is wholly accurate for the year(s) depicted

The range and choice of period and livery for owners is pretty varied but if that is the objective to go for a given period, then the challenge (and the frustration, sweat and tears) is to get it right.
Obviously, this only applies to those who are striving to achieve that. Those who don't and want to do their own thing is fine too. The problem is when some insist upon others that their effort is correct when it is not.

No, it is not nice to find this out at a show or rally and it is a real shame that so many will say nice things to someone about their bus and then walk off and tell all and sundry about the imperfections.

I for one would far rather be told what is wrong and given constructive details than just be slagged off behind my back. Even if sometimes it's a little hard to take.
I learnt that from restoring classic cars at a young age, that palming something off as 100% when it isn't will soon get rumbled. But strive to achieve that and no end of help and advice gets offered.


As far as I understand, RM5 is to work for a living, so, it is understandable for certain criteria to be met. This is where it is different as I don't think there is a full service class early RM in as near to original
condition available for general work.

So to conclude,
I think it would be far fairer to describe the bus as having had a 'Major Overhaul to the highest standard and sympathetically outshopped in as close to original condition.'
That is still something to be very much proud of.

Well done Arriva , No. 5 is alive !! She looks fantastic , we should remember its 2009 not 40 odd years ago when she was new and enjoy her for what she is today . Top marks Arriva !
My only other comment , will RM6 get the same makeover , imagine a near identical 5 and 6 parked side by side.......!

Mark 2391

hi al just a small point rm 47 still has plain windows rm 5 had openers in 07 and rm 275 seems to of gained opener when it did have non openers till very recently very odd don't you think.see a patern appear.

Tim ,

Thanks for the note , I have not seen RM 47 since it left NORWOOD all those hears ago so can't comment beyond what I've quoted as and when last seen, I know the 'window exchange' I quote is accurate as I know the 2 coachmakers who did it, these 2 chaps ++ their Dad were also responsible for RMC 1464 full rebuild / retrim after it was retrieved from the 'scrap department' following a LOW BRIDGE ' oooop's !!!' , it never actually got to the scrappers only on paper. To be fair I must say having seen the entire set of photos of RMC 1464 opentopped 'overhaul' then RM 5 has its works cut to compete in certain ways which will be very very interesting to compare once the Photos and VIDEO etc of RM 5 are publicly released and it will be.

The much questioned here 'cooling' grille mesh will be looked at later, the current situation is simply down the original grilles THEFT ...

The WHEELS & TYRES situation is NOT NEGOIABLE for this reason ..... as a major bus operator safety is a prime consideration COMBINED with this logic - if the bus is out on a day trip or whatever then as you ALL KNOW '' SPLIT RIM WHEELs '' MUST BY LAW be dealt with inside a safety cage which is clearly NOT practicle on EASTBOURNE SEA FRONT so by using TUBELESS tyres the bus company can quite easily call for help from its tyre contractor or their agents and have the tyre problem dealt with 'on site' == everybody is then safe including the Tyre fitter which I'm sure you'll agree is a high level of common sense. At least they are still 20 inch wheels so all is not lost.

NOTE for above ........ BOTH LONDON CENTRAL and TRAVEL LONDON have been in court recently to answer for WHEEL FITTING FAILURES and they claim the problem has been dealt with, beyond that can't comment other than its a documented fact.

Steve,

Being busy as usual I can now do a bit more on this signage thread ...

The 'L T E' -55 BROADWAY. S.W.1.[Full postcode never existed then anyway] - signage will eventually be corrected, positioning change required and was accepted as needed.

The 'SPEED .. 30 M P H ' ++ bus weight above it will also be added correctly once I've given the Project manager a couple of new -- UW 7ton 5 cwt 0 qtr -- to play with.

Both the above have been noted as required, but no doubt someone will say its not legal to use such signage, I'll say read your VOSA Bible !!

One more piece of well forgotten signage was found recently and has been made up as near as appears correct for size / spacing etc ... Font is defintely correct - Johnston medium lower case - signage is ' Light luggage and parcels may be left under the staircase by permission of the driver but at owners risk ' .

And almost finally as there may be more we find ....... Drivers Cab requires the vehicle weight signage to be displayed between cab door rubber edge closing channel and 'bell board' door side edge.

We have one more very rare sign available and I have yet to show this to the P/manager for their decision on use or not as it will not be cheap to produce due to 'artwork cost' involved.

Alan - Shouldn't sign read by permission of conductor ? as a bit awkward to go round the front and ask the driver if you want to leave a parcel under the stairs ?

I am not suggesting that this is necessary, but a large enough wedge of folding ought to secure a pair of fixed front windows and rubbers.

Tubeless rims were originally introduced for lorries in the late 60s with advertising campaigns promoting their weight saving advantage. Super single rims were not in popular use at the time and five axles were required to run at 32 tons GVW. That normally meant 16 individual wheels so the weight saving was worthwhile; it made the difference between carrying 20 tons or only 19 and in some cases 21 tons was now possible. As palletisation and standard unit loads were spreading the advantages of being able to carry one extra pallet or not being allocated the load were obvious.

The spread in popularity came when cabs started to get heavier when fibreglass, aluminium and wood framing gave way to stronger pressed steel and the later sleeper cabs, as drivers changed jobs to those fleets with vehicles that did not require one to share the working day with a smelly, horrendously noisy 12 litre engine that took up most of the cab. Great fun to drive for a day nowadays, but not for 60 hours a week with no power steering, constant mesh 'box, a rock-hard fixed seat, no heater, a heavy clutch pedal, almost non-existent springs and, as for the brakes: least said the better. After the rare legal 12 1/2 hour day of that, a filthy dormitory in some transport digs or 'cab hotel' on top of the engine cover.

Now for my two bob's worth.

It's their bus and they can do what they like with it.

The fixed upper deck windows came from RM 275, it's owner told me and also said he had done very nicely out of it thank you very much.

It's a shame that attention to detail has been somewhat lacking, for instance, have they put Mod 67 under the canopy, have they re-instated four bolt seat fixings to the gangway side, has it got a CAV switchbox with the kickdown and light throttle range connected? I doubt it.

Tubeless wheels were introduced during 1968 to Routemasters. They were of the AEC 'razor-edge' variety and 25 buses from AW and HT were so equipped as an experiment. They were the same as the wheels used on the production Merlin's. These wheels have a vintage look to them and we have fitted them to both our buses. It's very easy to criticise but you only have to look at the wheels on most RML's to see that they are wrong because although a lot have been changed to tubed tyres they should have 10 hundreds on the front and 9 hundreds on the rear but I have never seen one that has. So you lot, before you start chucking stones you might want to get your own house in order.

The danger, as has already been pointed out, is that in the future someone might use RM 5 as the definitive article on which to base their restoration.

The knowledge and detail that Chris has, is exactly what is in danger of being obscured.

I have no problem with what any one wants to do with their property, It is the definition that is a problem.

This is where Restoration, preservation, refurbishment and overhaul need clearly defining.

As Chris says, there are so many variations (most quite recent) even with wheels that it is confusing.
I did not know about the Merlin wheels but looking at original pictures, early RM wheels look like RT wheels.
And although I had always been led to believe RT and RM wheels were always different. What Chris reveals is different. So were the pre 1968 wheels the same as RTs?

Just as a point of interest, Garage Engineering Managers did not have the remit to commit any bus for scrap. Each bus was inspected at Bus Sales and it was they who decided what went to Barnsley, not GEMs.

Although it's no my practice to encourage 'anon' posts this point is important and deserves a reply.

RT and RM wheels are different, RM wheels have a deeper dish and so can only be used on the outer rear of a RT. Using them on the inside rear on a RT will probably give you tyre rubbing problems and certainly will on lock on the fronts unless you adjust the lock stops to compensate and loose some of the turning circle.

RM wheels are ok on a Reliance but not the other way round because the Reliance wheels don't have the 4 holes for the nuts on the back drums.
Reliance wheels can be used on the fronts of a RM.

This info only applies to original equipment wheels not the modern tubeless ones now fitted to modernised RM's

Claire

I have to agree that the bus looks shiny..

It cant be a true restoration cos it aint RM5, well actually it is RM5 but only as far as the bonnet number goes.

Full marks to Arriva for allowing this standard of presentation and indeed I played a small part in it however it just isnt correct but then again who actually said it was..

Modern engineering maintenance standards required prohibit the use of certain items such as split rim wheels etc etc. Lets not go ga ga over something it isnt, but someone has taken a lot of trouble to try and get as close as possible to restoring to original appearance of this vehicle.

We could all split hairs over how many srews have been replaced but at the end of the day its done and looks fine.

For those of us who worked for LT, LTE, LRT or even LBL will concour that the management were hell bent on destroying any enthusiasm an employee showed. Mortlake was a prime example, best kept buses in the fleet and the garage was shut.

So well done Arriva management

Graham,

I agree that seems logical , we worked to a photograph of a sign in situ as nothing original was available to copy and it definitely says ''Driver''. With this particular sign we did the best we could to interpret overall size and letter spacing based on the photograph and will happily admit it probably needs 'tweeking' , otherwise the font & colour are correct.

Andy H,

RM 47 was destined for the scrap man via Southall OR Fulwell for the reasons explained, One of the prime considerations at the time being that as LT wanted all useable mechanical parts back from the breakers yards for reuse at that time then it was decided no exchange was practical + the bus would yield other much need parts and the GEM also decided that he would NOT fund the costs of an exchange even if one was available so the bus was thats another reason why it recommended for scrap, another consideration as I understand it is that it was also LT policy to get shot of as many RMs as possible which was working to great effect as we know.

Had the garage GEM wanted another bus in exchange for 47 from the growing pool of withdrawn RMs his choice was wide, he didn't bother. Sadly this very well respected GEM died some years ago, and it is to him I own so much for encouraging the hobby + his decision to turn RM 1000 into one of the original 'showbuses' at the beginning of the era, and not forgetting of course the 'NORWOOD PRINCESS / RMC 1464' as she was affectionately known whilst based there.

A change to the bus signage that was considered as shown on originals is that the use of the sign 'SPEED :- 30 MPH' will now NOT be used due to the bus being 'refitted' with a 4.08 diff unit, so such speed is not quite what you would expect as you pass it at around 50 mph which shes quite capable of achieving.

Chris S,

Thanks, NO MOD 67 is not reinstated If its the one I think you mean that IS on RM 6, neither is the similar mod under the conductors area.

dose anyone know if rm 6 will be done next and al how comes rm 5 is staying down south

Our tyre contractor always used to bring out a small portable safety cage for dealing with split rims.

James ,

The main reason RM 5 and most of the others are staying South is simply this..... The garage engineers are a great bunch who can be very helpful & friendly with an engineering manager who has a Routemaster passion for what he calls 'his babies' , there is also some space available to have the RMs located there + they are now building up a 'specialised' collection of RM related goods such as tools/parts [ other than what Arriva already have ] and anything else they can lay their hands on to keep the buses going. On thing on the grapevine is this -- its possible that at some time in the future if RM owners need attention to such things as a 'B'frame change required then with permission they may be able to help. Don't forget that these chaps did all the mechanical work - including B FRAME CHANGES - on the final 6 TFL RMs for service re-entry ++ RM 5 has the engine from RM 1292 [ first one of the last 6 RMs refurb'd ] which has been fully overhauled by a specialist company which is well known for such engine work.

The North London 'outstationed' RMs - RMC 1464/1453 & RML 901 as far as I know do visit South London for mechanical work when required.

As I understand things RM 6 WILL stay gold for some while yet.

oh rite i have only seen rmc 1453 and rml 901 here in the north. y is 6 staying gold its had its time

''Prestige and uniqueness'' are main reasons +++ costs to ' undo ' quite large as well , ALL Arrivas RM fleet belong to the ' HERITAGE ' fleet business side and thats a consideration which is outside the normal operations business.

This has been an interesting read with a variety of views that RM5s overhaul has thrown up.

I see that yet again, facts and details are somewhat divulged in the usual cryptic way as though it was some sort of nuclear bomb official secret.
I find this so childish and it seems to blight bus enthusiasm, but more so it damages it, as it sparks arguments that are unnecessary and does set
about confusing what is and is not accurate.

It is now just about clear that RM5 is not a restoration but a thorough overhaul for an intended working bus. And included, a practicable as possible return to the vehicles original presentation.
In that vein, it really is a fine example.

This is no mean feat. Those who are or have carried out restorations to make their bus an accurate depiction of whatever era they choose, all know how difficult it is in just obtaining
certain parts and reinstating certain features. And thats just the cosmetic side. Then there's the mechanical side, at what point to 'undo' certain modifications that may well affect the
performance or safety of the vehicle.
Those who do strive to produce a thoroughly accurate restoration are not going to be too keen to see their bus in service. A scuff here and a chip there will entail a load of angst.
So with some materials and even once common parts and services scarce, some compromise for a working bus in particular, will have to be made.

There are a few details on RM5 and several other buses that do, as someone else pointed out, stop short of the vehicle being at least a 100% accurate visual restoration,
all of which from my observations, could easily be put right.

I hope those involved with RM5 are not offended by constructive criticism. It is usually intended as goodwill to see the end result as a total success and a credit to those who
actually provide the elbow grease.

Tony ,

Thanks for the input , as usual most welcome.

From my own side -- what I have put out as public information on here has been sort of controlled by the company/Arriva and very private persons involved until the various deadline dates had been reached. For example the 'public' annoucement that RM 5 had undergone such a huge amount of work was supposed to, as I was informed, be on the same date as the 'Friends of the LT Museum' newsletter was posted to members - I am one such person -- In fact Arriva went public via the Heritage fleet website news section about 5 days before that date so I was given the ok to follow with some of what I knew , then as more info became public then within virtually hours on the same day I followed on with Forum input ... ie The photo of RM 5 that I'd privately had for about a month prior and was asked not to publish so didn't.

I know from information I have been given that keeping quiet as I asked to do was indeed much appreciated by both Arriva and the sponsor who I will say has been more than generous and helpful with information as and when available for public consumption.

even though she is not the orgianl girl she still looks the nuts i cant wait to c her at the ltm also al do u know where rm 1124 rml 2360 and rml 2403 is mate baceuse i cant find them mate.