Hi Guys

I have the chance to buy a RML but am unsure of the price as I'm a relatively new enthusiast! Can't remember it's number exactly but it's RML 25XX? It's in the condition it was when taken out of service and as such has the obligatory few scrapes and dents that aren't too major but to be nice will need a complete rub down, fill and respray. The interior's pretty tidy considering what it's been through and it all seems to be there apart from the headlight surrounds and a smashed indicator. The asking price is £14,000. Is this average, cheap or dear?! Any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks

Karl

You need to know a LOT more about it to judge the price. On the face of it £14,000 sounds expensive if it is just as it came out of service and has been stored since. No doubt given the number of the bus, someone here will know something about it, by Monday afternoon you ought to have quite a few replies. Normal advice would be to look at several buses before deciding which to buy and to get someone in the know to look over the vehicle.

I agree that the vehicle will need a thorough inspection to determine the true condition and obviously that will dictate the value but on face value I am inclined to agree that 14,000 is somewhat steep for an out of service vehicle that will obviously need as a minimum some repanelling and paint to put it back into a reasonable condition. Some of the ex service vehicles that we have seen come through Busworks while structually sound have been decidely rough and scabby both internally and externally. With the current economic downturn I would regard 14,000 as overpriced.

Thanks for getting the ball rolling for me guys, I really appreciate it! Actually there are 2 routemasters at this place but I'm interested in the better condition one. I came across them by chance on my local industrial estate and aren't advertised as such, just sitting there. I'll get the numbers of them next week and post them here. My family is in the accident repair business so a few battered panels aren't that much of an issue but as you said I don't want one that's too scabby.

Are routemasters in an un-restored condition like these getting rare because I can't find any for sale, that's why these seem appealing because they're on my doorstep. As you rightly said though I don't want to impulse buy a nail! I don't know if I'm looking in the wrong places but does anyone know of any other routemasters for sale? I can't find any?!

Thanks again

Karl

You've done the right thing firstly by asking advice before buying. £14,000 is very steep for a scabby ex service bus.
You ned to know more about its mechanical condition than its body and interior condition. If the bits you can see are rough, what hope is there for the bits you can't? You need firstly to know what engine it has, and its condition. It may be Scania (desirable, worth more), Cummins, (again desireable, worth a tad less) or Iveco, (least desirable, worth least, more difficult for DIY work because all the important bits are down the side of the cab). Sheet aluminium and paint for cosmetic improvements cost pennies in comparison with some mechanical units.
Is the vehicle MOT'd? Class 5 or class 6? Or has it stood deteriorating for 4 years?
I know a short RM (which tend to command higher prices due to them being more desirable to some enthusiasts than the RMLs) which was a well maintained although not perfect, Class 6 MOT, requiring a respray, with an Iveco engine, but a fully restored interior with origional moquette and rexine, and it sold for 13,000 and it struggled to reach that figure. That sort of puts a comparison for what may be a bit of a nail.

I have been thinking about taking the 'plunge' as I am about to retire and, financial manager willing, have been looking at an RM/RML purchase.
Major problem seems to be reliable and safe storage but once that is sorted then finding out about buses up for sale seems to be a bit of a hassle too.
From what I know of buses that have actually sold about 10 -11k should buy you an ok RML (maybe needing cosemtic stuff but mechanically sorted)but then at least half as much again for an RM in really good nick. One wonders where 20-25K for butchered RMLs or 22 -28k for a really good RM comes in the world of reality but Ive seen such prices advertised.
If nothing realistic turns up I might well go down a different 'route' and BTs and Ms certainly have loads of character;very small initial outlay,cost very little to renovate, lots of spare bits and I thoroughly enjoyed driving both in service......we'll see!

A lot of good stuff has been posted on this thread and just to add my little bit

First off you MUST have somewhere to keep the bus , preferably undercover and secure to stop the vandals and thieves or you are facing an uphill battle,accomodation isn't easy to find !

You need to make sure you can afford to keep the bus after you have purchased it , its not a cheap hobby . If you buy an unrestored bus that needs mechanical parts to restore it again you may struggle with obtaining the parts you need (see older posts on this forum) . If you find a working but unrestored example double what you are buying it for and you will be getting near to how much you will spend to get it in a reasonable state. The last option is to get a restored example which will be more expensive to buy but will only need routine maintenance .

14K does sound a bit dear , but that said there don't seem to many routemasters up for sale at the moment and market force does determine prices . There have been a couple of near original RM's for sale in the mid 20-28k recently which were advertised on carandclassic.co.uk so perhaps 14k isn't that much overpriced .

It does really depend on what you wish to do with a routemaster , some people love to strip them down and rebuild them , some keep them as they are and other want one that has had everything done for them.

You could always make an offer to an owner of one you like , they might say yes ! I'd consider an offer for my RML2391 if the price was right !! (m.allin@sky.com)

Mark 2391

Now plenty of people are not going to like this but the reality is that emotion and sentiment are creating false values for the vehicles that are really priced pie in the sky.

RM/Ls are not really rare.

But the fact is the RM is now an obsolete vehicle, it has no real use for it's original purpose. It is unlikely that we will ever see another serious fleet use of the type in the UK and what exists as working service vehicles has probably peaked and levelled off. It's a tiny figure of what is out there and all over the country there are RMs stashed away for a rainy day, or starting to fade away.

The reality is that an ordinary scruffy out of service Routemaster is not worth much more than scrap value (which is not much) A much modified/converted one is worth even less.

A nicely restored one is worth a lot more but it will never be valued at anywhere near the true cost of all the time, effort and cost of getting it to that condition.

The only thing pushing prices up is the fact that it has huge sentimental value and being the last of a breed, has become an icon.

But with storage becoming a nightmare across the UK (not just in London) and all manner of restrictions from the EU in the pipeline, storage and upkeep of the bus will probably annually exceed the value of the vehicle.

It's just as big a problem for owners of classic cars, but the RMs (or any bus or truck) sheer size compounds the problem.

Sooner or later, RMLs will be getting broken up in increasing numbers, not because anyone wants to do that but it will be inevitable as spares diminish and overheads render buses an extravagant surplus.

At some point the worthless value will become a reality and the prices will drop. Only then when the number of vehicles drops to the point of genuine rarity will prices recover.

It's a real shame as many preservationists, some with great skills and who bring much to the table will be financially forced out of the hobby.

Hi Ropey ,
As usual very good points and I agree with more or less everything you say . Routemaster prices are inflated because of the points you mention . I would have thought prices would have crashed by now . The madness when they finished is fading into the past but people do still want one (or 2 or 3 or more !!!) Hence why high prices are still with us and its well worth mentioning that you will never get back the money you spend on them , unfortunately some will want to sell and make a profit (I don't see how you can when you add up storage , servicing , restoration , fuel costs etc) They will fall eventually but there's not much sign of it just yet despite the slowdown.

Mark 2391

Interesting stuff indeed.

Not sure about the term obsolete being used to describe a Routemaster, factually they are still used, even in service in Central London. The realistic point is that a vehicle is worth only what someone is prepared to pay for it. I would also think it highly likely a scruffy out of service Routemaster may be worth considerably more than scrap value. This may seem somewhat naive, but I have not met anyone yet who has purchased a Routemaster purely on the grounds of sentiment only. If that were to be the case, I imagine the shock of facing the reality of costly ownership issues would very quickly dispel any previous notion of sentimentality a person might have had for the dear old Routemaster. At this point the genuine preservationist is there ready to step in and secure a bargain.

I am surprised Mark you may be thinking of selling, if the price was right. That is the real issue here, and as far as I can see judging from vehicles for sale, prices remain around where they have been for some time. I do agree with Ropey that RML's will be getting broken up in increasing numbers, and that is why I think ownership may have to change, with an increase in multiple ownership of a single vehicle.

Steve beat me to it, mechanical condition is probably far more important than appearance for instance. My own bus looks scruffy, with a just out of service look. However I have spent a tidy sum of money on her mechanicals such as brakes and servicing by the 'doc', so one must not assume a bus that looks a bit jaded and faded is a mechanical basket case. Funnily enough when at rallies etc, it is often the pretty ones that reveal less attention to the underside in comparison with the outward appearance of the body. Then again a look inside a drivers cab on an otherwise pretty bus, and a untidy and dirty interior is often found so I suppose it all depends on ones priorities. Anyway who cares really about what an old bus looks like, well quite a lot really so onward and upwards to those who remain committed to the strange world of Routemaster ownership.

Lastly to the guys who want to own one, the best advice I can give is to take someone along with you when you go to see one, who is genuinely knowledgeable about our beloved icons.

Ed

Just a quick note for Ed , I've got some ideas in my head at the mo . Nothing I want to put on the forum at present but it could mean I will have to part with 2391.
Mark 2391

they are very over priced even the models are going through the nose now

Hi guys

Thanks very much for all the advice and info, it's much appreciated! I've been to have another look at the RML today and its number is RML 2528, does anyone have any info on it? Mechanically wise the brake accumilators need re-charging (or replacing!!!) but apart from that it was pretty sound. Again, if anyone has any info on the bus I would greatly appreciate it.

Cheers

Karl