As you all know by now, I do not normally involve myself in discussions which involve anything other than pure Routemaster matters but in view of the controversy regarding John Morris's perceived political views, I felt that I should have my ten penneth.

Steve, as Moderator of this (or any other site) you have to be seen to be COMPLETELY IMPARTIAL and above any political viewpoints or opinions - in other words when you take on a position like this, just as when you become a committee chairman, or Speaker of the House of Commons, you effectively disallow yourself of having any views of your own and have to be seen to be 'above the fray.' I learned this very quickly when I was moderator of a now-defunct cricket forum (and yes people try and squeeze politics into sport as well as bus forums!)

John posted what were seen by some people to be 'extreme right political views.' Fair enough, whether you think the views are right wing or not - this forum isn't the place for political views of any sort, especially when they involve another country.

However Steve, you have then fatally flawed your own position by disallowing John's political views and then espousing your own (what could be seen as) liberal/left wing views. In other words, you have sent a message stating 'we don't want right wing viewpoints on here but if they agree with mine, then it's ok!'

This simply isn't good enough Steve. As Moderator, you MUST be impartial and by expressing a view - your view, you have fallen into the same trap as the former Mr Speaker Martin in the House of Commons by showing favouritism of one viewpoint over another.

It's obviously up to you whether you think you have rendered your position as Moderator untenable but I think that in future, the only way to avoid a repetition of this situation is to REMOVE - not lock but remove the 'offending' posts and to expressly forbid any further similar posts - this must include any views on Livingstone, Johnson and Uncle Tom Cobbbley and all.

This is going to make the Moderator's job harder and this forum potentially a duller place but we cannot allow any sort of favouritism to be seen.

I will say no further on the subject and will in future go back to my usual type of posts.

Steve H ,

Got to be careful here with so many STEVEs I might get confused ..

1] It was me who removal Johns offending post of open political content, based simply on private emails of complaint about it.

2] As forum owner I override everything IF & WHEN NECESSARY and answer to no one , as owner my decision must be final as I might be held legaly responsible if anything goes wrong .

3] In this case I believe you refer to that Mr Anderson has reacted & locked the thread then I will support this action BUT not necessarily agree with as hes the moderator and makes the decisons not me unless reqired to.

4] Yes I agree with much of what you say/suggest and it must be remembered that to undertake such a position is both demanding/difficult and much of the time impossible to satisfy everyones preferred direction within the discussion or arguement.

5] AN example I often use is this when responding to private email complaints ..... on another very big 'LT' forum based on YAHOO groups,
I know the owner and we often correspond, back several years ago a debate began on there and within couple of days it had turned into an open public personal arguement being one against the other challenging the rights & wrongs of 'their' accurate information. One of the participants who does NOT live in UK but NOT far away either carried the arguement on & on & on, it got seriously boring with posts 2 or 3 times a day , as he said he was right and simply wouldn't listen to the other side given by someone who had as much right to have his say as the main party -- yes he, the main party, still reads this forum almost daily but will not post, I can track his activities here -- The final result was that the MODERATOR STEPPED IN AFTER 5 LONG DAYS OF BORING ARGUEMENT that was going nowhere + becoming heated at times. I was sent by 'cut & paste' the entire thread via private email so I know the 2 main parties involved. The moderator of the forum - NOT THE OWNER - finally took exception to this arguement, closed it dead but was hard pushed to keep out of the debate in his summary of why he'd stopped it simply because he saw both sides of the arguement. It is a very very thin line we tread as both OWNER and MODERATOR and sometimes our own private thoughts do get involved simply because we have no other way of making a point whilst trying hard to be fair. The problem this other forum had at the time was this ... the main antagonist on there had already made his name as he had then and still does to this day prowl around almost every LONDON BUS FORUM giving his views / opinions of whats right and whats wrong with any debate he takes a dislike too IF it happens to say anything against his PERSONAL held VIEWS and feelings gained from his years at LT ESTABLISHMENTS. He does indeed have much sound knowledge and input capability BUT YOU MUST NEVER ARGUE AGAINST any of HIS side of things as he'll turn the debate back against you to strengthen his own case == very arguementative which is a shame really as he can be quite sensible .. when reads this later I'll be even deeper in the poooo, never mind, broad shoulders...he doesn't like me because I occasionally challenge TFL in public on here simply because we have NO say in what THEY do as they are NOT ELECTED yet act like dictators .. nuff said on that !

Great test match I assume you watched Mr H

I've been reading the threads evolve on this subject the political bearing on this is not doing the preservation/enthusiast movement any favours at all !
In any hobby these days there is a certain amount of politics,be legal,obligational etc etc. And it becomes off putting to say the least !

We are considered by some as being 'odd' at the best of times for having an interest in buses. Alan I think it was made mention some years back that this forum was viewed by many of the big wigs within the bus industry, We don't want to portray ourselfs as small minded and arragant as well do we !

Come chaps and chapesses lets draw the line under this here and now and move on and get back to more important things -Buses !

For the good of the preservation movement

I have been away so just catching up.

I was beaten to this by Steve H's post but will still say it anyway as it is at least the second time our moderator has done this.

Regardless of what is being said or implied by members the Moderator must only stop the "conversations" not comment on them. At most a single line for justification could be shown. E.g. Too political, Too libelous, Too many idiots etc etc.

Having a final say and then locking the thread is rather "it's my ball" like.

David

Steve, regarding the Ken Livingstone/Boris Johnson debate. Alan has made his views plain about former Mayor Livingstone and his broken promises which saw the uneccessary removal of Routemasters from London's streets. Current Mayor Boris Johnson has promised a 21ST Century Routemaster and as this is a forum about Routemasters then surely the politics of what has happened to Routemaster operation in London over the past six years should be debated.

Alan - agreed, yes I think we should draw a line under this and yes the test match was fantastic - unfortunately, I wasn't lucky enough to be there 'live' this time so had to be content with listening on the radio!

Graham - I agree with you regarding comments made by Alan and others (including me probably) about Livingstone's broken promises. I think that comments such as this, provided that they aren't libellous or abusive are fair enough as we are talking about historical fact, likewise Johnson's plans for 'son of Routemaster' without promoting or abusing those particular individuals political viewpoints.

I think where we would have a problem is with people coming on here saying 'Vote for Ken, he's a great lad!' or 'Boris for P.M. - the Tories are best!' This is the sort of politicking we can do without and as Pete Carter has eloquently said, let's get back to the important stuff like buses!

Hi All

Many thanks for the supportive comments - in the end common sense (and courtesy) holds everything together.

Firstly, let me say that my politics are not extreme. That is merely the label applied by those who were unhappy about my post. I suspect that they are the same people who were simultaneously claiming to be tolerant whilst making derogatory remarks on this Forum about my wife and children and the other people featured in the photographs showing RML2603 at the Fort Collins Tea Party last Saturday the 22nd August. But extreme is not the label that I would apply to myself. Just a little eccentric...?

As my politics seem (hopefully, very briefly) to have become a topic of conversation on this Forum, for your information, but not that its anyones business, I see my politics as somewhat left of centre. Society should care for the less fortunate. Where I differ from some is in how that care should be delivered. The NHS is the third largest employer in the world - after the Red Army and the Indian National Railways - but still it cannot deliver what is required. Why? For every soul delivering care there is a bureaucrat sat in the shadows waiting to collect his pension, paid for, yes, you guessed it - by us! Such a calamity of planning is the product of socialism. To object to that is not extreme - it is simply common sense. Drive socialism out of health care and with it the politically correct nonsense that it seeks to wrap itself up in and let people get on with the job of caring. Thats when people will begin to see change, not before.

After speaking to a Romanian Baptist minister whose wife had her arm had been broken by the secret police and who lived in fear for his life and those of his family, nothing surprises me in the views people hold. He told me, "Whether it be by the surgeons knife or the secret policemans boot I know Gods timing will be perfect." During that trip we smuggled a Romanian man out of the Communist hell hole in which he was imprisoned and through two borders, eventually getting him into the refugee programme in Austria. He was given a passport by the United States of America.

Here is one of the pictures some people do not want you to see:

It is of an immigrant to the US from Serbia, with her family on RML2603 in Fort Collins, Colorado. Wow! Happy People! The reason for their patriotism: They simply do not want the US to be drawn into the socialised health care in which Britain has become mired. The lady's family lived and suffered under Communism. She is delighted to be free of it. Her son is pleased to be in such a loving family. Her husband is a very lucky man. Is that so controversial?

We see pictures of Routemaster buses in all sorts of settings on this Forum - sometimes they are standing in someones garage looking very well cared for. Sometimes not! Other times they show up at weddings - there have been some recent postings of immaculately turned out examples which, sadly, attracted very little praise from Forum members. And I am sure that an RM has turned up at a funeral or two. There are some even being converted for use in promoting Veganism. (The estimate put on the value of these converted vehicles does, perhaps, show that it is better to travel in hope than to arrive, but that is an entirely different matter and I for one hope for those involved that their estimates are correct). These uses do not seem to attract any controversy. Why then is a Routemaster turning up at a political rally any different?

The above uses all occur because the owners of these wonderful iconic machines also have other lives! The presence of such information on the Forum enriches the experience for all and makes for some interesting exchanges of views. The key, as someone has already very wisely said, is for the discussion only ever to be tampered with if it has become libelous or some other serious difficulty has been encountered. The alternative is for us all to become anoraks and rivet counters. I, for one, will never become that. (Not to be confused with the real enthusiast who is technically competent and very knowledgeable). .

In the UK at the moment we have an un-elected Prime Minister, who seems to share running the country with an un-elected member of the Cabinet (Mandy), representing a party that attracted less than 16% of the vote at the last opportunity the British public had to express any opinion on the matter. But supporters of that outfit deflect criticism by denouncing their critics! Perhaps theirs' is the extreme politics in modern Britain? Enough said.

We hope to take RML2603 to another rally today Thursday, August 27th at 1:00 p.m. (protesters are being asked to arrive early), at Fossil Ridge High School, 54000 Ziegler Road, Fort Collins, Colorado. Anyone in the general vicinity is welcome to put in their five cents worth. We will be exercising our First Amendment right to free speech.

In closing I would mention how much I value the wisdom and good input of so many in the RMOOA. Thank you, Alan for your wisdom in keeping we reprobates in some sort of order! Also, thank you to co-moderator, Steve. Many of the nicest people I have known have been on the other side of the political coin and I share your frustration in trying to get things done properly but not getting any thanks for it.

We can take a lesson from the House of Commons: After engaging in heated debate on the topic of the day, the Members all retire to their favourite watering hole together. In our case, of course, we go and play with our buses and if we're very lucky we get to meet up at rallies, political or otherwise.

Thank you

John

Its got to be the hardest task for the moderator - That of being completely neutral and impartial.

It is simply not acceptable to have a moderator lock a thread and then justify it because he or she has a different view.

The moderator simply must not express any view and the simple 'Too Political' - 'Not Routemaster relevant' or 'poor use of language' type of restriction or warning is all that need be required.

Sure, the antics of the GLA or TfL should be reported and commented upon as they do have a relevance. London is the home of the Routemaster and few that they are, they do still operate here.
Furthermore, a Routemaster is a bus and therefore it's followers are likely to have a few views on London buses and it's operations as well as whatever passes through the intestines of TfL and emerges as the new Routemaster.

So opinions. comments, observations and views do have some relevance.

John's views did overstep the point of relevance but his views are no less valid than anyone else's as long as they are not offensive.
We all have views on the NHS and given that the present population is the healthiest and longest living and that most major medical advances have been incubated in the UK over the last 60 years, has to say that it is not a total failure. Making money out of it is a different issue. Having a large part of my family live in the US for over 90 years and hearing of their demise when chronic illness occurs shows the US system is far from perfect there as well.

It's only a thread and you don't have to read it or take part in it.

But as it is a little off the route the best solution is probably to carry on the debate via direct emails as debate is always a healthy thing.

But to censor and then add an opinion is not so healthy.