Well, I guess it's time to say this, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one thinking it...
...it's possible to vote a lot more than once. I'd love to trust the integrity of my fellow musicians, but when a guitar is on the line, I can't help but wonder if people are voting several times for themselves. I have asked my friends not to, but has everyone?
In my view, there are a few songs that really deserve to win, including "Ode to Todd" and a couple of others. But right now, "Fight" has the most votes. And, no offense to the guy who made it, but I can't even understand the lyrics as they're sung through that distortion processor or whatever it is. I really have trouble sitting through the entire song.
Let's say it's not even about people voting several times... then doesn't it really come down to an internet popularity contest?
I wrote Todd and mentioned that I think it's overwhelming for people to listen to 16 songs and try to pick the best one. I suggested that next time, he (and perhaps a team of judges) might pick their top three, and then let people vote from among those. That way, there would be no chance that the winner wouldn't be a top quality song. Even if it were somehow a bit rigged, it would still be a top three song, which would make me feel a little better. After the contest, he could post all the original songs and let people listen to them and comment on them, maybe on a board like this.
Anyway, I'm not trying to complain, but I truly did spend a lot of time on my song, hoping to win a guitar, and I honestly don't feel like the contest is set up in a way that really puts the best songs against each other. If this is how contests are run, I won't spend my time putting a song together next time, since I always have projects I need to work on in my studio.
I'd really like to hear some feedback on this. Am I the only one who feels this way?
Ben Travis
("Hey Jude, Fight for Your Right to Party!")
Just to let you know, I didn't intend to accuse you of voting more than once, and I want to say, for the record, that I think your song is good overall. I just think you used an effect on the vocals that saturated them almost beyond recognition. In a contest like this with so much competition, that leaves me surprised to see you so far ahead of many of the other submissions. Whether you personally voted more than once isn't really my concern either... I'm more concerned about the overall way the contest is set up. It just doesn't seem like a way to end up with the best song at the top.
I suspect that if Todd did pick a "top three" or "top five" and let people vote for those, he would also end up with a more likely set of people who wouldn't be hackers. In my experience, high quality musicians aren't at the same time hackers, and they are also typically professionals who would have little interest in making themselves win. I know that, for myself, I only want to win if I genuinely get the most votes. I truly want to know if people think mine is the best. The guitar would be nice, but knowing people thought my song was the best would be an even greater reward.
In your defense, CRash, I think it's possible that you just happen to be the person who has a whole lot of extra votes, and there doesn't seem to be a clear reason why your song is that much better than the others. I would be saying the same thing to anyone in your position (having a song that is far ahead in votes without having a clear lead in quality), and it's nothing personal. Keep up the good work, and if all those votes are genuine, more power to you. Maybe the people are seeing something I'm not seeing that makes your song that much better than the rest (maybe some of you voters could fill me in on what made "Fight" your choice above the others?).
Thanks for not taking it too personally. I think I'm just annoyed about the structure of the contest, and not at any one person or song.
You are most definately NOT the only one who feels this way. Shortly before reading your post, I was debating wether or not to send an email or post along those same lines. There is something a bit strange about the rapid spike and climb in CRash's votes. While I understand that opinion is subjective, I would like to think that at the end of this contest the best entry would prevail on it's merit alone. I have no problem being bested by the best. There are better songs in this contest, but it's decided by numbers. How those numbers are generated is anyone's guess. I'm sure there are plenty of ways to circumvent the one person/one vote rule.I like the idea of a judging panel for future contestamundos, but that doesn't stop me wondering about this one...
Screw you. Who died and made you King of rock and roll? You seem to forget that rock and roll, overall, is not made by "high quality" musicians. It's made by working stiffs who work at loading docks, playing out at night, most times just to get the chance to play. To just be heard. It's not made by people, who sit around all high and mighty, talking down to people about how "typical professionals" act and what "typical professionals" would do. I recorded a song and entered a contest. I'm thrilled to be in the lead of that contest, but Friday is a long way off. Will I still be in the lead by then, who knows? Probably not. But I do know one thing. If I'm not, I'm damn sure not gonna be all whiney and start a thread and accuse someone else of cheating.
Rather than responding to you in kind, I'll just reiterate my main points:
-I think your song is good overall
-I'm surprised to see it so far ahead because it's difficult to understand the lyrics
-I would like to see the contest set up in a different way. If yours was winning and the contest was set up in the way I have proposed, I would have no problem with it at all.
I'm sorry you have taken offense, because that wasn't my intention. I wish you and your song the best, and, like I said, if all those votes are real, more power to you.
Bent Ravis has a good point about CRash's distorted vocals, but believe me there is a good reason for it. He can't sing. He can, however, mix a tune and I, and apparently many others, like it. Better than Bent's tune. So quit yer bitchin and let's see who wins.
Since you voted for him, perhaps you could tell me what it is you like about his song that made you vote for it above, for example, "Taxgirls". What is it specifically about it that makes you feel it is better? I'm really interested. Maybe I really am missing something about that song, so help me out.
For the record, I don't necessarily think my song is the best. I think "Taxgirls" and "Ode 2 Todd" are my current favorites. But I don't see what it is about "Fight" that makes it better than those two songs. From what I've read, I'm not the only one.
So help us out, if you don't mind, and explain what you like about "Fight," and what makes it the best song in your opinion.
I agree. I don't think the song Fight's climb to #1 has anything to do with an honest contest. For the record I voted once on the first day for my song. That gave me a whopping total of two votes on that day.
CRash:
I'm not saying that you voted more than once for your song but did you call all your buddies and ask them to vote for you? Can you guarantee that one of *them* didn't repeatedly vote for your song? Look, I listened to the songs and I can honestly say "what the fück!" when I see your vote count versus listening to the song. In theory, you might have won if "Ode 2 Todd" and "Taxgirls" wasn't in the contest or even "Get Back To Fighting..." and also about five other songs which all are much better songs than yours. Heck, my own song kick's your's butt and *mine* sucks rocks. Just track down which one of your friends bumped your vote, tell everybody here that so-and-so was messing around and we'll all be cool with that. But don't sit there and play like you didn't "ask for a little help on that vote count".
I can only reiterate that I have not cheated, nor have I asked anyone to cheat for me. I cannot control other people and what they may or may not do. If I were to find out that someone cheated on my behalf, I would ask that these votes be removed from my total. But as it is, I have no more control of the voting than you do.
Ben,
Seriously lighten up. This elitest attitude of yours is making me sick to be a part of this contest. I agree that Ode2Todd is one of the best here, but you sound like a real jackhole. Just because you have an understanding of music doesn't make your opinion any more valuable than anyone else here. Who knows, maybe Crash has his co-workers voting for it as well. I know I told all my friends that my song was up and that they should vote for it.
Cut your freakin bitching, you have a good song...You know that, we know that, you sound like a freakin child who isn't getting his way. Its a Waterstone...Not a freakin Gibson we're playing for here. I think we all agreed that making the songs was more fun than actually winning the contest anyway. But obviously you are in it to win it.
Ben,
Seriously lighten up. This elitest attitude of yours is making me sick to be a part of this contest. I agree that Ode2Todd is one of the best here, but you sound like a real jackhole. Just because you have an understanding of music doesn't make your opinion any more valuable than anyone else here. Who knows, maybe Crash has his co-workers voting for it as well. I know I told all my friends that my song was up and that they should vote for it.
Cut your freakin bitching, you have a good song...You know that, we know that, you sound like a freakin child who isn't getting his way. Its a Waterstone...Not a freakin Gibson we're playing for here. I think we all agreed that making the songs was more fun than actually winning the contest anyway. But obviously you are in it to win it.
MyClumsySymphony,
I'm sorry it's coming across as an elitist attitude. I certainly don't think my opinion is any more valuable than anyone else's. That was my whole point, actually... that it seemed like some votes were being cast a lot more than once, which would in effect make those people's opinions count more than the rest of ours.
It's interesting that you said you agree with my point that "Ode 2 Todd" is one of the best, but you also say I'm in it to win it. If I were in it to win, it seems like I'd be saying my own song should be at the top, and not someone else's. I genuinely want the song that is the best to win, and it doesn't look like that song is mine.
And as far as your point that it's "not a freakin Gibson we're playing for here," does that make it okay for votes to be cast more than once? In other words, if it _were_ a Gibson, would you suddenly agree with my points?
I want to be clear on something that CRash has said that I agree with: people could be voting more than once or hacking, and he might not know it at all. Half the time, when I start up my computer, it gives me the option to vote again, so I know how easy it would be. And I can't control what my friends are doing either. For all I know, some of them might be planning to get me 1,000 votes by the weekend.
That's why my overall point is that I would like to see future contests done a bit differently... I'm not actually upset... but I do hope it can be a learning experience.
Although making the song really was the fun part, I have a feeling if the guitar hadn't been offered, there might not have been nearly as many people taking the time to get involved. I might be wrong on that, I'm not sure. I'd be interested to hear what other people think about that. But if people figure the voting won't work very well anyway, they may choose not to participate in the future, which would rob all of us of some great music.
I do apologize if I have come across as elitist. I think there is some great talent represented here, and it's neat to hear all the different songs. I will walk away from this contest feeling that I had a good experience, even if I don't get motivated to get into a future contest on this site. And I apologize to CRash if I have seemed to be accusing him of cheating--I'm not. I frankly have no clue what's going on behind the scenes. All I know is that my mom, who has very little knowledge of computers, told me I can vote more than once if I want to. If my mom can vote several times, anyone who is experienced with computers can vote many, many times. It just seems a little pointless to have voting if the voting can be manipulated, that's all.
I'm sorry if I've come across that way to anyone else. I think the contest was a great idea, and I've gotten to hear some great musical creations that would never have existed without this contest. I'll try to just focus on that in the future.
"Anyway, I'm not trying to complain, but I truly did spend a lot of time on my song, hoping to win a guitar, and I honestly don't feel like the contest is set up in a way that really puts the best songs against each other. If this is how contests are run, I won't spend my time putting a song together next time, since I always have projects I need to work on in my studio."
Everything that is making you seem like a Jack MeHoff is in that paragraph. It seems like you think your song is better than other people's and shouldn't have to go up against songs like "Fight". This contest IS an internet popularity contest. It's all about how people can rally the troops to like their song.
Think about how obscure the "Odd Todd" site is. I've been a fan of it for years. But 9 out of 10 of my friends have no idea that the site even exists. So of course I've told a bunch of people to come here and vote for my song. Do you honestly think my friends are going to come here and listen to all the songs and then vote for one thats not mine? Ain't gonna happen bud. I'm sure thats why you have as many votes as you do as well.
"...it's possible to vote a lot more than once. I'd love to trust the integrity of my fellow musicians, but when a guitar is on the line, I can't help but wonder if people are voting several times for themselves. I have asked my friends not to, but has everyone?"
You'd love to trust the integrity of your fellow musicians? Ta hell does that mean? Pardon us for liking our songs enough to tell people to vote for them.
Here's another line that flagged you as a dick. What if Fight legitimately has all the votes it has? Just because you don't like it means that it can't possibly be a decent song and other people shouldn't like it? What about my song? Right now I have 73 votes. I put a lot of time into mine, Do I deserve to compete with you, would I have made the top three? Who gives a shit?
Your attitude sucks because you come in here...Piss in the mouths of everyone who composed a song...of everyone who voted for a song...then say "well not to piss in your mouth but..." You don't think you're being a dick but you are...Just relax...This an OddTodd contest for god sake...It's for fun...I know you say that but from your writing I don't think you know it. You're getting me worked up for no reason because I'm reading everything you write as..."There should have only been a few songs to vote for...and mine should have been one of them." Why would you suggest todd pick 3 or 5 of the best if you don't think yours is one of them and Fight definitely isn't.
And no my attitude wouldn't be different if this was a Gibson that was being given away. I think everyone who actually submitted a song should get a chance at the guitar...Not just 3 or 5 songs that are supposedly the best.
My two cents...I'm out...Not worth discussing this any more.
Deep, you just not smart. You don't even get the purpose of why Ben started this posting. It isn't about the songs. Its about the way the contest is set up. The sad thing is though that you will probably never understand.
From one Anonymous to another. I don't think YOU actually get IT. Ben is suggesting that the voting sucks while at the same time suggesting that the song that is in first place shouldn't be there. The reason he is saying the voting sucks to begin with is because a song that HE thinks sucks is in first place. He actually asked "Mike" to explain why he likes Fight. How bout I explain why I hate "Hey Jude, Fight for your right to Party".
If Ben actually followed the rules to the contest maybe he'd have a legitimate point. But he re-recorded Hey Jude...Without bringing anything new to it except a sample from a Beastie Boys song. This is a "covermash" contest. He didn't actually mash any songs. He recorded a song that someone else wrote. Yeah he's got a great voice and can play the piano. But he submitted Hey Jude. There's no covermash.
Now he's getting pissy because he thinks he's a real musician because he can play a Beatles song.. and a song with an actual mash (Fight) that would be wicked awesome without the filter on the vocals is beating him. If he's not attacking Fight, then why did he ask "Mike" to explain why he liked it? "Mike" doesn't owe him a damn thing.
So if he actually followed the rules in the first place maybe people would vote two or three times for his song. But sadly, he has a large amout of votes and only put about 15% effort into this contest. You'd think for a musician as "professional" as he is, he'd come up with a better idea.
Ben is going out of his way to insult Fight and pretty much every song that he doesn't like and then say its about the voting. If it was up to me I wouldn't let any of the artists vote or even comment until the contest is over. Because its shitheads like you and Ben that make everyone else feel like an asshole for submitting a song. He even said he feels that only a few songs deserve to win.
Maybe if he gets the treatment he's giving Fight he'll change his attitude. Why does Ben's song have so many votes? How can we trust that Ben's not voting 20 times a day? Because he says so? Thats the exact reason he's saying the voting sucks in the first place. Because people can't be trusted. Why do YOU trust Ben? Because he gave a weak example from his mother? Because he was the first person to say something about the voting so he's got to be trusted?
What's getting my goddam goat is that Ben said:
"And, no offense to the guy who made it, but I can't even understand the lyrics as they're sung through that distortion processor or whatever it is. I really have trouble sitting through the entire song"
No offense? Are you kidding? Who wouldn't take offense to that? What an ass. I hope his piano catches on fire.
Well, the first thing I'd like to say is that it's easier to sling the mud when you're listed as "anonymous," rather than talking as your real identity. I also find it interesting that several people have come on this message board (also anonymously in most cases) and said how much the song "Fight" completely stinks, but no one has really said much to them. The anger seems to be reserved for me, and I feel I have said things as cordially as possible while still saying what I think. Maybe it's because I am writing as my real identity and not hiding behind the "anonymous" login, I'm not sure.
I think I've been clear in saying that I do not think the song "Fight" should win. That's my opinion, and I have a right to it. If you don't agree, that's fine, but assuming I'm a jerk seems a little presumptuous. I haven't assumed anything about anyone's character on this board, yet mine has been attacked various times. I have heard that called an _ad hominem_ attack... attacking the person rather than the argument the person is making. It doesn't prove anything.
I am mainly writing to respond to one rather strange thing that the last anonymous poster said, which was that I really didn't fulfill the rules of the contest. Here are the rules, cut-and-pasted from Todd's rules page:
"Then pick a Beatles song AND a Beastie Boys song and MASH them together and record something semi-coherent.
Acoustic? Kazoo? Keyboards? Rock opera? Whatever format you want. We're talking bout an original covermash."
Uh... yeah. I didn't do that? I took a Beatles song and a Beastie boys song and put them together. I didn't use any samples... everything on there is my own work. And this doesn't fit the rules how? Of all the accusations I've heard, this one seems to have the least grounding in any kind of reality, so I thought I'd mention it. Maybe you (whoever you are) can clear up what you mean when you say I didn't go by the rules.
Anyway, it's sad to me that all this hostility is happening on Todd's site, because Todd is such an easy going guy. Whenever I've talked to him via email, he is always friendly and laid back. Nothing seems to get to him, and I know I could take a few lessons from him. I don't want to fuel any more of this kind of angry posting on his board, but I feel I have a right to defend myself, especially when my motives and my very character are challenged over and over.
I've said what I wanted to say regarding the voting... I simply think there might be better ways to do it next time, since what's the point of having voting if it isn't limited to one vote per person? I think if everyone stepped back a little from all the emotion, they would all agree with my main point. Todd has implied that he sees a problem with it too, and is working to resolve it.
I do not even know the person who recorded "Fight"... it could be Billy Joel for all I know. I just know that the way it was recorded makes it seem like it would be hard for it to win against songs that are easy to listen to. But, as I've said all along, that is my opinion, and anyone is welcome to have another opinion. Keep in mind that saying something about how someone's vocals are mixed is not the same as attacking that person. I do not know CRash, nor do I claim to know anything about him. All I have to go by is one song. He may have a best-selling album out for all I know.
I would appreciate it if, whatever your opinion, you could have the decency to give me the benefit of the doubt and try to discuss my points with me rather than attacking me personally. I would also appreciate it if anyone who is attacking me would post their real name and email address as I have. Otherwise, it's awfully easy to just let yourself spew forth all kinds of emotional attacks because you know it will never be associated with who you are in real life.
Your post, although I know it was meant to be mocking, got me thinking about what it really _is_ about, which I think here is Odd Todd's web site.
I know this board is supposed to be about the music, but I thought I'd take a second and say how many laughs this site has brought me. I have passed this off to many of my friends, and all of them love it. Comedy is all about timing, and somehow Todd has amazing timing while using Flash, which I think must be incredibly difficult. I always remember the timing of the phrase:
"and...stared at the wall."
I just started thinking about that when I read that post, so I thought I'd mention what brought us all here in the first place, which is the offbeat, hilarious wit of Odd Todd.
Regardless of how any of it turns out, hopefully this contest will draw some people to the site who have never been. I know some of my friends had never heard of it, but they came to vote, and I encouraged them to stick around and catch a video or two.
I also figure this is the bottom of a long thread, so most people aren't going to even read it, much less care that I'm changing the subject. I thought about making a new post, but I've started too many new threads already.
Eh... I DID NOT submit any songs for the contestamundo BUT I did listen to ALL of the songs. My personal opinion is that both Fight and Hey Jude, Fight blah blah blah... are neither in the top 10. Sorry. SO with that said, when I saw the reults for FIGHT; the same thought went through my mind as well. Someone cheated. The best song on this is taxman/girls then ode 2 todd or A Day in Jimmies Life is pretty cool. The fact of cheating in contests such as these is unavoidable. We can only hope that enough honesty prevails to give us the true winners.
Crash's is actually better than your Ben. I've mixed better songs when I was 12 years old, so quit your whining. At least CRash's has some ingenuity about it.
Uh. I'm gonna have to agree (or disagree). Fight is terribly mixed (phase on EVERYTHING?! wtf?!) and musically uninventive. Now for opinion, it also just plain sucks. I'd comment on the lyrics (perchance they could reveal some level of quality), but i don't have the patience for extended periods of such sonic torture as would be required to decipher them.
Harsh? Yes, but honest.
Do a majority of people like this song? Well, perhaps yes; there are no facts to the contrary, just a lot of gut feelings and mixed opinions. What can be done? Nothing. The "losers" just have to suck it up, know that they did their best (and if not, then...) and try, try again.
Dear "Anonymous" (again, I think it's easy to make rude comments under the shield of anonymity),
You are certainly welcome to your opinion about my music. Not everyone has the same taste.
I'd enjoy hearing some of the songs you mixed when you were 12 that are better than mine. Feel free to email me one so I can hear what a well-mixed song sounds like. I'll never learn anything from you as long as you put me down and remain anonymous. So help a guy out who apparently needs work on his mixing skills. Send me a song or two, and feel free to post any specific comments you have on how I could improve the mix.
I do appreciate your kind words. I did try hard to make the song as good as I could without spending a huge amount of time on it, so it is disappointing to hear so many negative comments. While I see some of the others as better submissions to this contest for various reasons, it's always nice to hear a positive comment like that. Thanks very much.
If many people vote multiple times then it's totally unfair. If each one votes once, that's fine already. I suggested each vote should only from an account that is at least a few days old. In fact, since many here have been around for a long time, why not let only accounts that are at least 1 month old be allowed to vote? (that unfortunately excludes me from voting but I think it's better)
Although I'm not crazy about Crash's song, being that you're a contestant, I think you should have kept your pie-hole shut. If you're going to accuse someone of cheating, you might want to have some actual evidence! It's not Crash's fault that you have no talent and no life and no one sucking the pathetic worm you call your cock.
I'm going to place a vote for Crash's song, because no one deserves to be accused of something without evidence, particularly when it's coming from a whining little douche bag like you.
Hey loser, Have you ever been accused of something you didn't do, when the people accusing you had no evidence whatsoever? I have and it isn't fun. You need to come up with some hard evidence of cheating or shut the fuck up. Or better yet, make a public apology to Crash.
First of all, your hostility is old news. This thread was regarding the old voting, not the current voting. I think the current way the voting is being done is much more fair.
Second, if you read all the posts I wrote and are reasonably intelligent, you surely understand that I did not accuse CRash of cheating. I simply said I thought some people were voting more than once for his song. Whether he personally did anything of that nature I have no clue. (Furthermore, I have several times been quick to admit that I only _suspected_ that this was happening)
Third, since you are asking for evidence, here is some:
-the song "Fight" in the intial voting was far, far ahead at first, and at the very top even at the end.
-although Todd has removed the totals, probably as a further prevention against hacking, the last time I checked, "Fight" was in last place. In a situation like this, the best evidence I can offer that the initial vote was probably hacked is that the current voting should match the initial voting if that many people love his song. And the current voting doesn't match by a huge margin.
Fourth, it would sure be swell if you could stop being so belligerent toward me. It makes your points carry a lot less weight when you surround them with profanity and insults. If you can communicate like an adult, I will be happy to discuss any points with you that you'd like to discuss.
Fifth, my being in this contest makes it even more important to me that the voting is fair, since my song is one that people can vote for, and I want an honest representation of how I did, whether good or bad. So to say that I shouldn't comment on the voting _especially_ as a contestant in the contest doesn't make much sense to me.
Since I would like to hear your responses, please try to keep them cordial enough so that Todd doesn't have to remove them.
<<<In a situation like this, the best evidence I can offer that the initial vote was probably hacked is that the current voting should match the initial voting if that many people love his song. And the current voting doesn't match by a huge margin.>>>
And with fewer contestants, one would think each would have *many more* votes, assuming that the same people voted in this round.
Ben's STILL whining? Ben, once again, you're beating around the bush and half heartedingly accusing me of cheating, which I did not do. Either be a man and say the words, or like Mevin has asked, shut the fuck up. You think I cheated, step up, say the words. Or continue to crawl around and whine like a woman. It's up to you.
Look, how about this: you guys just think whatever you want about my motives. Obviously, my words mean nothing because you've already decided exactly what I think, despite my trying to explain myself on various occasions.
I've said everything that can possibly be said about what I think on this issue, so if you're still confused (apparently you are), go back and read my earlier posts.
In case no one has noticed, I'm no longer in the contest... the voting problem has basically been fixed, and I haven't really made any comments since all of that changed. My main problem was the way the voting was set up, and that is now remedied. Whoever the "Mevin" person is brought this thread back to the top for no apparent reason other than for everyone to use all the profanities in their vocabulary on me again.
So if you don't want to talk about this, it's pretty simple... don't respond to an old thread that is dealing with irrelevant information and problems that have been fixed.
Interestingly, I've already noticed several people accusing others of cheating this time, and I don't see the surge of anger toward those people. For whatever reason, I must seem like a fun target.
So have your fun... insult me... tell me what a jerk I am. If that brings you pleasure, go for it. From what I know of Todd, this is exactly the kind of thing he hates, but do what you want. I'll leave you to your own devices.
If I had made a serious entry into this contest and I had to be right next to some monkey grinding ass wank, I'd be pretty annoyed--especially if I could tell that their song was musically shitty and it somehow mysteriously got a bajillion votes.
It wouldn't even so much be that I was losing to a clearly shitty song, but more that I'd spent time on a contest that seemed rigged so that ass hats without any semblance of talent could win.
If I had known THAT, (in theory) I wouldn't have bothered to put any effort into my song at all. If I had known that it was amateur night at the mike, I probably wouldn't go up there trying to upstage them with professional quality stuff.
The truth of the matter is that Fight really does suck, regardless of all the whining and protesting to the contrary. It just is not musically interesting, and I don't think it would be musically interesting to the MAJORITY of people, but yet somehow it managed to take home a majority vote...
just a random wee comment here......some you must have great lifes if all you have to worry about is this insane post... personally i would be lmao if my song
(if i had entered) was winning and iwould certainly not care if people were saying it was crap....some of you forget that sometimes the crappest thing is the best....in this case im not keen on the so far winning song but it has that whole cheesy thing going on and i think the whole mentality of odd todd site and its fans enjoy that kinda thing...rather than being peoplewho discuss reverb and
phase and wtf!!! is this the reason it has soo many votes? personally iwould vote for the worst possible one i could find and maybe a lot of people do the same.
IF YOU THINK THE VOTING IS DODGY THEN RETALIATE BY DOING YOUR OWN DODGY VOTING
AND LET THE DODGY VOTE RACE BEGIN :P
hey big thruster... we discuss reverb and phase because this is fun for us. people who really like playing golf talk about golf clubs, swings, slices and junk like that. and we're bothering to care about the way the voting works because it's a shame when things are unfair. there's always one of you on these threads... enjoy being you.
None of what you mentioned is evidence. It's suspicion. Evidence is tangible things like IP addresses. Learn the difference. As far as my criticism that you didn't have a right to complain, I stand by that. You have (or had) a vested interest in the outcome of the vote. By complaining to Todd and writing about it here, you were trying to manipulate the vote. In essence you're doing the same thing you accused Crash of. And I don't buy for one minute that you weren't accusing him. You complained about the quality of "Fight" and about the integrity of the other contestants. So basically you just accused him indirectly.
And to those who think it's about the quality of the music, I'd like to point out the fact that Mariah Carey's song, "We Belong Together" is currently the biggest gainer on Billboard's top 100.
Before security measures were added, CRash's song rapidly grew to be in first place, having earlier gotten an unimpressive vote count just like several of the other songs, including my own. And then suddenly his song out of nowhere was winning. If you've ever studied statistics or the stock market or marketing or anything remotely similar you'd know that this wasn't normal or a natural occurrence. I formerly tutored college level MBA-type students in statistics and I don't think that CRash's song's rise to fame was a normal distribution of votes after the first 48 hours of the contest.
Further, if you look at the sheer volume of voting across the board instead you'll see that it underwent an unnatural increase a few days into the contest. In the first several days of the voting there was only a mere trickle of voting coming in. I was rather unimpressed by the number of votes overall and attributed it to the fact that nobody really wanted to download the songs themselves, especially 20 or 21 of them. Who really had that much time to spend on a contest? But then, boom, it was like someone strapped on a little jetpack onto CRash's song. And *that's* when Ben posted this thread.
Now after the security measures were added we see that CRash's song went from 20% of the votes (over a field of 20 songs) down to now 6% (over a field of only 5 songs).
Evidence: n. your basis for belief or disbelief; knowledge on which to base belief. (WordReference.com)
Evidence: n. Any observable event which tends to prove or disprove a proposition, see scientific method and reality. (Wikipedia.org)
I submit my observations here as evidence that there were voting anomalies. My proposition then is that there were voting anomalies and an unnatural distribution of voting in the period three days into the original contest.
CRash has indicated that he himself did not cast those votes for his own song. He has further indicated, when pressed, that he did not ask others to vote for his song.
All this is the evidence. Choose to believe whatever evidence you are comfortable believing. I provided a rather lengthy email to Todd and Jacob (from PurpleGuy.com) before this second round of voting and I have a good deal of confidence that they now won't be fooled this time by any unnatural voting distributions like we saw in the first round.
First of all, I want to genuinely thank you for changing the tone of your posting to me. It really is difficult to think logically when someone is calling you names, etc. But let me respond to the points you made in your most recent post:
>None of what you mentioned is evidence. It's suspicion. Evidence is tangible things like IP addresses. Learn the difference.
Well, in a situation like this, it's the closest thing I could provide when asked for evidence. I realize it wouldn't stand up in court, but then again, I wasn't asking anyone to accept what I was saying as fact... I was just asking if other people felt the same way or if I was crazy. Several people agreed, and several didn't. Those who agreed seemed to have a lot of the same reasons I did. And although I know you think I'm not shooting straight with you, I sincerely was not accusing CRash specifically of cheating. When I said I'd love to trust the integrity of my fellow musicians, I really did mean "musicians," not just him. I wouldn't ask anyone to trust that I would be honest in a contest where an expensive guitar is at stake, so it was hard for me to place that kind of trust in others in the same situation.
>As far as my criticism that you didn't have a right to complain, I stand by that. You have (or had) a vested interest in the outcome of the vote. By complaining to Todd and writing about it here, you were trying to manipulate the vote. In essence you're doing the same thing you accused Crash of.
I'm not sure I understand how talking about the vote affects the vote. The only way I could affect the vote would be to go and vote several times for myself. If I write a message explaining that I'm concerned about how easy it would be to manipulate the vote, I don't see how that affects the vote at all.
I do know what you mean on some level, though, and that's why I waited a while to post that message. I hoped someone who wasn't in the contest would bring it up.
Keep in mind that I could have done it anonymously and avoided the whole problem, but I didn't think that would show much integrity, so I put my real name. It would have been much simpler for me to just post those same comments, but not let anyone know it was from a contestant in the contest. I realized at the time how much better that would look, but it didn't feel right. Perhaps I should have done it that way and avoided all the controversy.
> And I don't buy for one minute that you weren't accusing him. You complained about the quality of "Fight" and about the integrity of the other contestants. So basically you just accused him indirectly.
I can see how it could look that way, and I did apologize to anyone who felt that I was coming across that way. And I will freely apologize again. I have noticed many times how words in print can so easily be interpreted various ways. I even sent someone a compliment on email one time, and he wrote me back and said, "Are you serious, or are you being sarcastic?" And my compliment was very straightforward, like, "Hey, thanks for being so quick to respond to my email. Many tech support places just ignore my messages altogether. Great job!" Because he wasn't used to receiving genuine praise, he interpreted it much differently than I intended it.
So I will admit that I may have come across as if I was accusing CRash, but I can only tell you that I honestly had nothing against him personally, since I don't even know him. What was happening with his votes made me suspect that something might be going on, but I had no way to know if he was doing it, or if maybe a well-intentioned fan of his was. And regardless of that, it made me wonder if the end vote could ever be right. What I figured would happen is that people on many sides would start to vote more and more, until it came down to whoever could get the most votes in before the time ran out. Fortunately, it doesn't look like that happened, but I certainly wasn't limiting my concerns to what appeared to be going on with CRash's song.
>And to those who think it's about the quality of the music, I'd like to point out the fact that Mariah Carey's song, "We Belong Together" is currently the biggest gainer on Billboard's top 100.
Point taken. And, like I said before, if those votes were real, more power to him. Many people thought Elvis sounded like crap when they first heard him, but now he's the King. It's not for me to judge what songs are the best, and I know that. Now that the voting is fixed, I have no problem whatsoever. And if CRash wins, I'll be the first to congratulate him.
"Keep in mind that I could have done it anonymously and avoided the whole problem, but I didn't think that would show much integrity, so I put my real name."
For the record, I never stated that I did not ask others to vote for me. In fact, I have. I campaigned my ass off. There was no rule against that. I belonged to three mailing lists and damn straight I asked people to vote for me. I e-mailed lots of friends and they voted for me, as well. The only difference between the first round and the second round was, I have moved my residence in the interim. I had no internet access to run my campaign and when I again got to the internet, I found I had been kicked off of two lists for spamming. Serves me right. Ah well, I can always rejoin. It'll be worth it just for the fun of watching you "serious" musicians squirm when someone like me was actually winning. Without cheating. To all you who have accused me of cheating, you can go screw yourselves. To all those who actually believed in me, thanks. Congrats to whoever wins, I had a blast.
"To all you who have accused me of cheating, you can go screw yourselves. To all those who actually believed in me, thanks. Congrats to whoever wins, I had a blast."
April 18 2005, 5:10 PM:
"I can only reiterate that I have not cheated, nor have I asked anyone to cheat for me. I cannot control other people and what they may or may not do. If I were to find out that someone cheated on my behalf, I would ask that these votes be removed from my total. But as it is, I have no more control of the voting than you do.
CRash"
By asking everyone on several forums and your friends via email to vote for your song, this was "campaigning" and not "cheating"? I mentioned this specifically in this thread above and you replied with the quote here. We see that some "70sCat" has asked that people vote for "CRash's" song. Did you once ask anyone to stop voting for you or ask Todd to disallow some of those counts or did you get all huffy that people were rightly accusing you of cheating?
Finally, the truth comes out.
Ben: You're a pretty generous guy with that kind of "leave CRash" alone mentality. Do you realize that one of the other songs didn't make it into the second round of voting because of CRash's altered position in the contest?
I'd have to agree. If I had a large base of online friends, I would have definitely let them know they could come and vote for me. There's nothing wrong with that. The rules didn't say, "Only people who don't know you or like you are allowed to vote for you."
Now that the voting is working more securely, there's really nothing anyone can say to CRash. We can't even see the totals now, which is probably for the best. This thread was started as a reaction to the old way the voting was done, which wasn't secure.
My feeling is: leave CRash alone. I know how it feels when everyone singles you out and you continually try to explain yourself to no avail. Regardless of what happened in the past (which we don't really know for sure), the contest seems to be conducted very fairly now, and the best thing we can all do is celebrate the top five people and ultimately whoever wins.
Wasn't that regarding people who would hack the vote? Getting your friends to vote for you isn't hacking. I'm sure when Todd has contests like this, what he wants is to get a lot of new visitors to his site. So if you didn't ask your friends to come and vote, it wouldn't help Todd very much, and he's the guy who made it all happen.
If all you are saying is that CRash asked his friends to vote for him, and you think Todd wouldn't approve, I think you're wrong. I think all of us told our friends about this contest. I know I did. And I hope Todd's site got a few more regulars out of it.
