Here's a stock I just restored for a Diana 27 that is about 50 years old ( Just a Guess ).
The stock had extensive denting and chipping, and some scratches. It also was suffering from a fair bit of cracking of the finish.
It's a pretty non-descript piece of beech. The original finish and stain was removed without using caustic ( and destructive ) strippers, then a VERY light sanding was done with 220 grit in a couple areas where the seasoning of the wood over the years had left some ridging in the grain. Other than that, no wood was removed. Dents were raised and the few scratches were restored to sucjh a slight line that they stained up without telegraphing their presence and were then hidden and leveled with finish.
The color was custom mixed using Coronado Paint Dye Concentrates.
Beautiful job. From the looks of your 27 stock, I'm guessing mid to late 50s. I'm surprised you didn't find a date stamp on the butt in your refinishing process. Look again, it might be there. I redid my '59 27 stock with transtint dye and Royal London Oil, and I couldn't be more pleased. Mine doesn't have quite as much beech flame as yours does, but it does have some pretty neat black streaking.
As an aside, I recently redid a Slavia 620 stock (for the older gun with the round threaded endcap) and I was amazed by the amount of irridescent flame. It is without a doubt the prettiest piece of beech I've ever seen. In the sun, it flashes on and off as you move it. Unfortunately, I don't have a gun to put it on, since the donor was toast.
Knobs, the stock is absolutely beautiful, please expound on the materials and methods used a bit?
You have described a very typical post-war, German production model 27, maybe around 1960 to 62-vintage. These guns used a lot of leftover pre-war parts, including the complete receiver tube, breech latch, and many screws and such, though the ball-sear trigger was totally new. The sights were initially very similar to pre-war guns as well (although the hood you mention is a bit unusual, I'd like to see that!).
The unfailing key to distinguishing pre- from post-war 27's, is the rear receiver cap. On pre-war guns its aft face is flat. On post-war guns it is bulged, a result of fitting the new "ball-sear" trigger design into the old receiver tube.
The alloy trigger, and various subtle variations of the finger-groove stock, (I have had 6 post-war 27 stocks at various times, and NO TWO are exactly alike) lasted until the early 60's. Lack of date stamps and serial numbers are also common (unfortunately!). The more familiar newer 27's with simplified stock, stamped trigger blade, scope dovetail, ball-bearing breech latch, click-adjusting sights, etc., came with a rationalization of the whole Diana sporter line, that seems to have occured around 1964 or 65.
The Milbro model 27 actions were exact copies of the pre-war German ones, of course, with a much different trigger design. Again, some of the small parts probably are old German ones IMHO. Their stocks have a distinctly "English" flavor though.
You may find other info relevant to dating the little guy here:
This message has been edited by MDriskill on Apr 15, 2008 6:17 PM This message has been edited by MDriskill on Apr 5, 2008 1:56 PM This message has been edited by MDriskill on Apr 5, 2008 12:02 PM This message has been edited by MDriskill on Apr 5, 2008 11:51 AM
It's almost impossible to explain what I'm doing. There are three reasons.
First, I've been studying stains, finishes, and solvents for at least four years now, and I am still just a student. I will be a student for years.
Second, there's just no substitute for experience. Technique plays a BIG role in results. That means someone interested just has to get out and try it, and there's no absolute right way.
Third, I gave my word to keep some of what I've learned off the net. There are people who make a living using some of the restoration techniques I was taught, and my teacher, a person who once made a living restoring antique furniture, insisted that I respect that.
I was blessed to build a house for a fellow a few years ago who was a retired paint chemist ( he was 82 at the time ) and I pestered him incessantly about varnish chemistry, lacquers, shellac's, and oils. He also built and finished his own furniture and was a great resource for a wood finish junkie. The problem I have now is I can't remember who taught me what.
I'll explain what I think I'm at liberty to discuss.
The first decision is when to refinish, touchup, or just leave it alone. For me, I try to guess what will have the best result in preserving the wood for posterity. It's a personal decision. I haven't lived a few hundred years and been able to observe wood over that period of time, so I can only guess.
As far as finish removal and replacement goes, the first step is to ID the finish. Most air rifles have lacquer finishes, but there are different types of lacquer. They can be acrylic, nitrocellulose, or catellized lacquers. I had to learn how to ID the material. I did that by getting samples and studying them, and it's take a while to write about it.
Restoration experts resort to chemical strippers as a last resort. I'm afraid I can't go any farther than that. There is an enormous amount of BS on the net that is contrary to what I've just said.
Dent and scratch repair. The best thing is to start with a stock that doesn't have any broken wood fibre. I use water and heat on beech, but you have to be very careful for changes in wood color. I never use steam. I don't want to alter the stress in the wood and have it change shape. The rest would take too long to explain, but if you go slowly and carefully study what's going on I think anyone can arrive at their own techniques.
Dealing with the darkening of wood that has been exposed to daylight and air for years is an area I'm just starting to understand. I use a couple techniques to lighten it or "camoflage it" in the new finish. I don't think I'm strong enough here to offer anything illuminating.
I use oil based dye concentrate because it's as close to the factory original process as I can get. There's a discussion over on Airgunadvice.net that covers it a little more. I thin the concentrate about 3 parts dye to 7 parts solvent and spray apply it. I find it more useful than anilene dyes because it will partially dissolve into the sealer. This allows me to thin the tone of the color in areas that may have broad age darkening so they don't show up in the restored piece. I do this by using 0000 steel wood on the cured sealer. It works for me.
The finish is just the appropriate spray applied lacquer, which has been leveled up and buffed with a paper towell. Lacquers have limitations for application which are common knowledge, but if you've never used them it's helpful to practise until you see a fault, such as blushing, appear so you have some idea of what your environmental limits are.
Well, I'm tired of typing and I've just brushed the surface of what this beginner has learned.
....for not telling me, obviously you would had to have killed me later!
Seriously, I appreciate your notes very much. It's so tempting to over-simplify complex things (an attitude which has become a destructive American obsession IMHO....but, I digress). The thought, effort, and skill you apply to these old treasures is something we can all learn from, and savor looking at.
This message has been edited by MDriskill on Apr 5, 2008 2:39 PM
The main Dyes I use are Black, Brown, Yellow, and Red. They are primary colors, except for brown ( red, yellow, and black )
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These dye concentrates are products from Insl-X /Coronado Paint. It's tough to find any information about them on their web site. They are meant to be used as lacquer toners, but can be thinned for use with other solvents such as acetone. They do not raise grain.
I mainly use brown and tint it with red and yellow. It takes VERY little red to change the cast of brown into a "red mahogony" and I'll use yellow to brighten it up, or turn the cast to an "orange". A little third grade color theory goes a long way LOL.
Other easier stains to obtain are the NGR stains. There are a whole range of products that can be used as spray on stains and toners, and many of them come in premixed colors as well as primary colors. It doesn't take much messing around to figure out how to emulate amodern HW brown, or an old dark "HW 55" amber.
There are compatiblity issues with the dye solvents. Some solvents will cause color separation and others can coagulate, so be sure to find out what solvents are compatible with any dye.
The key to getting stains right is to know how they gain depth and richness of color once the finish has been applied. You have to experiment a little to get a feel for it. They spray on looking like a dull thin paint. You think you've lost all grain definition until you hit the stock with the sealer. You also need to get a feel for how much to apply, as they will "muddy up" your work if overused.
I got a chance to look over your response in detail this morning. I'd like to post some completed pics but I haven't got around to working on the gun yet. I took some time this morning to look at the action closer, and I my uninformed WAG is that this is a later gun. The reason I say that is that what I thought was an anodized or blued trigger appears to be plastic, ( or possibly a powdered metal mass produced item ) but I don't have time to look at it further. Here's a couple pics of the two stage trigger.
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You had also asked for a look at the globe sight, so here's a few pics of it.
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And the rear sight
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The breech seal appears to be leather that has been so heavily greased up that is become almost like putty, deteriorated, and no longer of any value. I'll probably turn a synthetic replacement on my lathe.
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And a shot at the markings
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I have to agree with you. I personally favor the Diana 27's over the R-7 as a walkabout plinker. It's got the zip of the HW-50S and it's very light cocking for the power level. A fantastic handler also.
Now it's time to get to work! LOL It's already 10:15 am.
Knobs, thanks for the great pics! This rifle has a combination of details I haven't seen before.
As I previously mentioned, Diana's "big" sporting rifles--models 25, 27, 35, and 50--seem to have undergone a major simplification sometime around 1964 or 65. 27's made after this time typically have the familiar stamped steel trigger blade with small exposed adjuster screws; click-adjusting plastic rear sight; rear sight/scope dovetail; and non-finger groove stock. Your gun has the last style of trigger used before the "big change," which was basically a plastic copy of the previous solid alloy blade.
The dovetail-mounted stamped rear sight and leather (?) breech seal, are other details I associate with "pre big change" model 27's. BUT, the clamped hooded fixed post front sight, and breech jaws without the flat area on top, are "post big change" details. All of which proves that all these things did not happen at once, I suppose.
Another interesting detail is that the trigger has only one screw in it, I would assume this is the sear adjustment, with the usual additional lock screw omitted? I'd never noticed that one before....perhaps the plastic was deemed to generate enough friction that the lock wasn't needed.
So I would guesstimate its production date as between 1962-65.
Question by the way: does it have a wedge or ball-bearing breech detent?
This message has been edited by MDriskill on Apr 15, 2008 6:21 PM This message has been edited by MDriskill on Apr 14, 2008 11:24 PM
But I'm guessing that front sight is not original. Your 27 seems to be somewhat of an enigma. That particular rear sight SHOULD be matched with a cross-dovetailed simple front post. I don't understand the longitudinal dovetails, combined with what appears to be mounting holes for a screw-on front ramp. Is the hole under the front sight threaded? Like I said, I've seen that particular front sight before, and it was on a fairly late model 24 and 35. Your stock profile is similar to an early 80s 27 I used to have, but it had the red rubber "butt-pimple" and no finger grooves. The '59 version I got from Mike has a much more slab-sided butt, and the finger grooves, and mine has a wedge detent and an alloy trigger with two adjustment screws accessible from beneath.
Interesting gun. Tell us more.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
This message has been edited by 144man on Apr 14, 2008 8:41 PM This message has been edited by 144man on Apr 14, 2008 8:36 PM
Jim, I would bet the front sight IS original. While anything is possible, the longitudinal grooves, or swapping the barrel within the breech block, are certainly beyond the average home hobby gunsmith! As for the hole between the grooves, that's a new one on me! It's really a fascinating transitional gun, I think, with the ball-bearing detent probably confirming the date I guessed earlier.
FWIW, after looking at a lot of 27's and 35's on German auction sites, etc., I've seen just about every combo of detail features you can imagine, including quite a few with finger-groove stocks and late scope-rail, stamped-trigger actions. Some may not be original of course--easy enough to swap stocks--but a lot of weird things happen when you change a given model's details while using up stocks of old parts, etc.
My buddy Lance recently got an 50's-vintage model 35 which has the breech block longitudinally grooved for the classic "two-position" target sight, but ALSO with a stamped rear sight mounted in a transverse dovetail! I hope to post some photos of this one soon....
This message has been edited by MDriskill on Apr 14, 2008 11:26 PM
She's back shooting. The stock will likely be rubbed out to a satin. I still don't know if i like the gloss.
I'll put a few hundred rounds on the new OEM internals, check the seal for fit and wear, and then install custom guides, and lilely put some JM Old School buttons on the rear of the piston skirt.
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