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24 kugel

December 31 2017 at 2:06 PM
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Shaun   (Login metromoppet)
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Having built then lost my original effort at making a girandoni, girardoni et al replica, well not quite, then re making a better version, hoping to leave no stone unturned I was going over the gloating nature of D.T.s comments of Natale de Beroaldo Bianchinis work on the previously mentioned thingy.24 kugeln
Well it occurred to me that with 22 balls in the tube, one in the transfer port and one in the barrel, that adds up to ??
Sorry boys just couldn't resist.Bye

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DT Fletcher
(Login DTFletcher)

Re: 24 kugel

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December 31 2017, 11:04 PM 

I think that using the magazine count for identification purposes is extremely limited. For one thing, there is always the question of including a ball in the barrel or not, so, any count can go up or down depending on how you want to count it.

Also, I think that Beeman misread Haller, because the reference to 20 shots in Haller has nothing to do with magazine capacity it's about how many shots the gun had to achieve with a single air tank. Each gun had to be tested to prove that it achieved the required 20 shots, before being accepted. For whatever reason, this has been interpreted as the magazine capacity.

Regarding Beroaldo Bianchinis, I'm not sure that he had an original Girandoni to work with; the 24 ball magazine count being one of the reasons to suspect this. It appears that "Girandoni" became a generic term for any magazine fed airgun of the Girardoni type.

Can't recall if I brought it up on this forum, but what appears to be a true Girardoni-made example appears to have been located in Germany. The reason we can be pretty sure that this gun is a true Girardoni is because it is inscribed "Girardoni - inuenit et fecit" Inuenit et Fecit is latin for "I invented it, I made it."


And, as expected from the original documentation, this gun, according to the museum, is a 14mm gun (probably 13mm in reality, with the 14mm measurement being made at the muzzle) Magazine count, according to museum, is 22.

The gun described in Baker/Currie is almost without question based on the design of Nemetz; for an improved Girandoni. This is based on the information provided in the article by Hummelberger. Hummelberger clearly made an error in judgement when he wrote that this clearly noted later design was something other than the Nemetz design (proof of this is contained in part 2 of Hummelberger).

Sorry if it seems that I am "gloating" about finding more information on the Girandoni; from my perspective, it is more a case of marveling about all the information that is available to a researcher willing to dig into the subject. I was amazed at how little had really been done. Note that this is the exact same thing written by Arni Hoff in the preface to his wonderful book.

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(Login metromoppet)

re 24 kugel

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January 1 2018, 8:01 AM 

Ok D T maybe gloating is too strong a term . Apologies. I appreciate the efforts you go to in order to source the info. We would all probably be less informed without your diligence, so thanks and Happy new year to all!

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DT Fletcher
(Login DTFletcher)

Re: 24 kugel

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January 2 2018, 5:32 AM 

"...with 22 balls in the tube, one in the transfer port and one in the barrel, that adds up to ?"

Note: a ball in the transfer port is, by the very nature of the design, in the barrel, so, there is only one possible addition to the magazine count not two as your post suggests.

Thinking about it, magazine count should only be the number of balls that the magazine (and the magazine only) can accept. Counting a ball in the barrel is adding to the magazine count and really is not a valid count.

Just now reviewed my notes concerning the airgun used by colonel Bianchini and the ball diameter is described as 5 Linie = 0.432” (10.97mm) which strongly suggests that this would have been a example of the later Nemetz design (as seen in Baker/Currie) and, since this all took place in the 1820s, any airgun in the Vienna arsenal would most likely have been the later improved model.

Remember that the original Girardoni was handmade ("Girardoni - inuenit et fecit") and all reports are that it consistently failed in the field and was impossible to repair. On the other hand, the improved Girandoni (Nemetz design) is reported to be an outstanding airgun, very reliable, and repairable.

It's pretty clear in other Austrian military texts that the armory guys (like colonel Bianchini) did not much like airguns. See Geschichte des K.K. Bombadier-Corps, der K.K. Artillerie-Hauptschule und der K.K. Artillerie-Akademie, 1786-1869 Friedrich Gatti, Albert Edler von Obermayer, 1905 see pages 74, 75, 88.

page 74
Obstlt. Vogelhuber and his small team of professional officers, who could hardly meet anyway the duties imposed upon them and had in 1790, taken over command of the main armory office, conducted lengthy trials with an air rifle invented by University adjunct professor Nemetz in Pest.

page 75
Meanwhile was Obstlt. Vogelhuber not only by his actual professional duties, but had also still by other affairs intensely been occupied with.
Joseph Nemetz, the already mentioned inventor had indeed lost his job at the University of Pest, but improved his airgun so that, after a single filling of the flask with highly compressed air, it supposedly fired 60 balls successively a distance of 150 paces. Also the weight of the weapon had been reduced by the inventor, but was still 6 pounds and 1 Loth. On July 11, Nemetz, who had become Doctor of Philosophy, a new project presented by which prevented the burning of firing holes and the repair of already burned could be effected more rapidly than before. The proposals of this tireless constructor do not seem to have been completely worthless, for he received a remuneration of 100 ducats and worked thereon for a long time in a laboratory of Bombardier Corps, for which he was paid 2 fl. daily, this was for the price relationship at that time exceptionally high amount to receive.

page 88
On 17 May 1799 sent FM Count Kolowrat, on behalf of the Archduke Charles, the drawings provided with a description of a project that originated from a French emigre and former colonel of hussars, Dedouchet*, which was intended to end the danger from charging the Girandoni’schen airgun with the air compression mechanism.** After the Archduke for such proposals always put keen interest in the day, was the submission of an appropriate model to practical tests requested. But the matter was no longer of consequence, because the air-gun Girandoni’sche the initially discovered valuable properties that they had hoped for, it did not possess. The Tyrolean sharpshooters expressed against this weapon an invincible repugnance that one already had to deal with the intention to make them disappear into various depots.

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DT Fletcher
(Login DTFletcher)

Making a Girandoni

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January 2 2018, 10:43 PM 

Of course, I have no idea the legal entities that you have to deal with, but, I had the thought that perhaps if you put a scientific spin on your project that the authorities might take a kinder view of your project.

1) there is a fascinating Girandoni type airgun in the Cortina d'Ampezzo town museum. It is inscribed with the name of Girardoni's assistant and has the fascinating feature of variable power (full -med - off) by use of an lever on the left-side plate. This is the only known example of a variable power Girandoni and the variable power function has never been demonstrated.

2) Amazingly, we still don't have a video of a Girandoni discharging when the hammer is decocted and the tank is still attached and pressurized to some degree. We can see people talking the sequence through and giving their opinion on what will happen but nobody has yet had the guts to actually demonstrate this well-known inherent danger of this battery type. This is almost without question the safety problem demonstrated by M. Lewis at Bruno's Is. with his Girandoni. Famous, historical incident that has never once been demonstrated on video.

If you think that selling your airgun project ask a scientific/educational project to the authorities might make a difference, I would be happy to help anyway I can. I'm reasonably sure that I understand how the variable power feature works and it would be wonderful to get a real world demonstration. I could also put together a paper on the M. Lewis Bruno Is. incident, along with a description of the history of the safety "de-cocking" feature found on later Girandoni's, including the Austrian and English variations of this safety feature.

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