This article is an answer to the article entitled “BIG Greek Lie # 19 ‘4,000 years of Greek Civilization’" and published in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RMDigest/message/6320 and in
http://www.maknews.com/html/articles/stefov/stefov107.html by Risto Stefov at October 2006.
Below, the term Macedonian has its proper meaning that was and is “Greek from Macedonia” and the term Macedonia refers to the land from Pindus to Strymon and from Olympus to Ohrid-Gevgelja line. Skopje never was in Macedonia.
My apologies to the SlavoSkopian people. My objective here is just to show how your state’s propaganda machine violated and still violating your right on truth by telling you lies and half truths. As long as your state denies the fact that Macedonians were always Greeks, we will not stop exposing those SlavoSkopian lies.
That definition of civilization by Oxford, excludes many peoples around from having their own civilization. Civilization is the amount of measures and means a people use at any given time to make people happier.
That Glenny Misha obviously confuses ethnicity with origin. And you confuse ethnicity with civilization. The more I read him, the more stupid I get him. Doesn’t he know that ethnicity and civilization are for educated people? Doesn’t he know that ordinary people usually follow their scholars’ choices and ways? It is called education; tell him about.
Physical resemblance? Hey, blood and dna are not related to ethnicity. We are Greeks not because of our eyes’ color, face’s ratio, nose’s width or penis’ length. We are Greeks because we want it and we shine this will by having Greek names, toponyms, ways, heroes, gods, dialect and we are proud of that campaign that Macedonians did to spread Greek Language and Civilization to the World.
“Civilized European principals?” Oh God!!
We Greeks, be it ancient, medieval, modern or future ones, have ONE thing in common: Mother Greece. She is really a shining and attractive mother and thus very demanding. She always captures us in her hands and asks from us to prove that we are proud of her by sacrifices, sometimes hard ones. Usually we don’t care about our fathers, that is, we don’t care about our blood, we let medicine, biology and you to care about it.
Ethnic or racial?? Ethnic is not racial and racial is not ethnic. We Greeks do know that from the times of Herodotus and Issocrates who stated that ethnicity is not a matter of blood, but a matter of education. That’s why Loring Danforth wrote “I belong to an ethnic group if I want it and they accept me”. Well, we Greeks stopped doing blood tests for ethnicity (genealogy) since the times of Issocrates. Be sure, that Alexander had no such test to recognize his Macedonian soldiers. He simply asked them to say Thessaloniki. If they said Solun, he knew that they were anything but Macedonian.
“re-Hellenization” by whom? Slavs, Albanians, Venetians, … ??
Yes, the term Hellene was used by some Byzantines as derogative term for pagan peoples. But, the Greek Language was always called Hellenic. And Byzantine Empire was a Greek Empire with Christian Religion. Christian Leaders had early seen that Greek Philosophy was not trash, so they attempted to “marriage” Christianity and Ancient Greek Thinking”. The Fathers of Church (Vasileios, Ioannis, Grigorios) did the job successfully and step by step Christianity had done a compromise with Greekness. Greekness is obvious within Christianity (read Pope’s speech in Germany).
Read carefully the paragraph about “Canning”. He could not do anything but try to bend Greece in Britain’s influence. Greek independence was inevitable, due to Philhellenic movement in ALL Europe (which was due to Greek Struggle of Independence). There was an antagonism of Great Powers of the Era not against Greek Independence but against to one another to take influence over Greece.
Philhellenism: All loves have such a dreaming dimension.
“Stable idea of Greece”? hahahahahahaha !! Bre Risto, do you love to read idiocies?
Yes, Greek nation-state was a product of Renaissance. But Renaissance itself was a product of Greekness.
We are Greeks because we have Greek names, toponyms, ways, heroes, gods, dialect and we are proud of that campaign that Macedonians did to spread Greek Language and Civilization to the World. In fact we modern Greeks differ from Greeks of Jesus’ times less than they differ from Greeks of Homer times. The evolution (change) of Greekness was more rapid between Homer’s and Pericles’ times than the times after Alexander to today. BUT THERE WAS NO CUTTING POINT OF GREEKNESS. We Greeks have always been able to understand the language that our ancestors spoke, lets say, 500 years earlier. In fact, it’s very easy for a Greek to read and get New Testament’s Greek dialect. The older poem written in modern Greek Language is the poem of Digenis Akritas written at 9c AD. You cannot imagine how much that poem still influencing us even now!
'natural development' !! Suppose that Greece teaches to all Macedonian pupils that the Macedonian name of Thessaloniki was and is Thessaloniki. Is this natural process or not? This is what Greece did and doing mainly because Greekness is closer to light and truth than any other civilization.
Yes, modern Greek state is ethnically homogenous. As I said several times we are sure that our blood is not ‘pure’. But whose blood was ‘pure’ Greek? Achilles’? Alexander’s? Thucydides’? Herodotus’? Demosthenes’? …..
Papandreou = Pericles !! Oh God (again)! My dear Risto, you do hate Greece that much! You will be sick by this hate, my chum! At the times of Pericles, Kleon was leader of the opposite party. Very similar to Papandreou. Was he Greek? At the times of Papandreou, Elytis had the Nobel Price for Peotry. Was he equal to Thucydides? (The Sunday Telegraph? What a reliable source !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hey, Greeks have an adverb: “m’ opoion daskalo 8a katseis tetoia grammata 8a ma8eis”)
There was no Greek state until the times of Alexander. And because Macedonia was the first Greek state we Greeks deny to any non-Greek people to call their state as Macedonia and themselves as Macedonians. Macedonians have always been Greeks and they are still around in Greece. They deserve and they called by all Greeks as Macedonians. NONE HAS THE RIGHT TO STEAL THEIR NAME.
For us Greeks, whoever defends Greece’s Independence with his blood is Greek if he wants it. Sorry, we have no more hard proof of his Greekness to ask from him. If you have anyone (proof) we are here to talk about it. Whoever is against Greece’s Independence is not Greek by definition. Whoever calls you Macedonian is not Greek either.
Great Powers supported Greek Independence because they claimed that Greece represented ancient Greece? Give us a break, will you?? Not to barrier Russians exit to the sea?
Greek classical past belongs to its admirers and lovers. Such as Victor Davis Hanson who wrote “ Who killed Homer?” book. At 198x a French photographer DENIED to take a photo of and “organ” (ecclesiastic instrument) in Peloponnesus because he wouldn’t believe that ancient Greeks has discovered the organ, instead of western Europeans. In contrary, there is a huge amount of Greekness’ admirers (the Philhellenes) who recognized the value of ancient Greek civilization. If they want it, we accept them as Greeks. We don’t monopolize ancient Greek culture; we did and do spread it to the World. As we have done with you Slavs at 9c AD. If you really want it we are here to help you to get closer to ancient Greek culture. Now, there are many persons around World who do the job we do.
The fact is that if you are in touch with Greek Spirit, you will be a passionate fan of it for ever. For instance read Thucydides “Melean dialogue” or “War pathology”. Read first passages of John’s Gospel; (the one that Pope read in Germany recently: a hymn to Greekness!!)
Yes, it’s a pity that all those regional Greek identities are partially lost. But this is globalization. Today Greek regional identities are visible in music and dances, especially in marriages and other social events. In a marriage you may dance Macedonian (kori, eleni), Thracian (paidoushka), Pontian (letsinas), Cretan (pentozalis), Epirotan (o giatros), Vlach (menousis), …. and many other local dances and music !! All Greek!! Greek regional identities are visible but they are not separating as like ancient Greeks any more.
There was no Greek state but Greeks were there.
Sinas!! And maby others! Vlachs do have heroes!!
Oh Falmereyer!!
We are Greeks because ….. you do know the rest, don’t you? Do you disagree? Well, meet me at any place on the net to talk about it. Look: getting Hellenized > become Hellene > be Hellene > nobody shall distinguish me from other Hellenes. It is called assimilation and if it is voluntary is a blessing for humanity, especially when it leads to Greekness.
Macedonians had always Greek names, toponyms, ways, heroes, gods, dialect and spread Greek Language and Civilization to the World. Macedonians named after Greek names all the cities they built or renamed. Thus Macedonians have always been Greeks and we Greeks CANNOT allow any foreign people to be called Macedonian. We owe this to our ancestors. You SlavoSkopians are Macedonian NOTHING. In fact, you are the death of Macedonia:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/415923/message
Why do many people dispute our past? To getting money. Our past is so famous for humanity that some (many-many) take money by haunting it and some others (few, like you) by humiliating it. And, let me tell you something: As long as any body argues about our past we have no problem with him. We do know that he is ignoramus or idiot (for instance, he confuses blood and ethnicity). But we have big problem with actions such as you SlavoSkopians take in order to argue against our past. In fact we will let you free arguing about our past as loudly as you want if you abandon the name of Macedonia.
Yes, we do believe (in fact we are sure and very proud) that our nation is as old as 4000 years and maybe more. What thing pushed Sinas to pay that amount of money for Greek Academy ?? Greekness. What thing pushed bilingual speakers to die for Greece and the survival of Greek Language? Greekness!!
If a civilization cannot live for 4000 years for how many years could live? Tell us your thoughts.
This barrier for Russia could be Turkey, much more effectively than Greece. But Greeks’ will (a self-counsiousnessed Greek cannot live as slave, Greekness = Freedom, read “funeral speech” in Thucydides ) pushed Europeans to help Greece ( we do honor all Philhellenes, even Polish, Russians .. ) for its independence.
You, dear Risto, love to love anti-Greek thoughts, we do know why.
Istor
Solun or Thessaloniki?
Conflict about Macedonian name