Zimmerit had zilch to do with what battlefront a tank was used on. It was factory applied and the German's didn't say ok this chassis is going to France and this one to Russia... Based on that rationale you would not see any tanks with zimmerit in the West but we know that is not true.
Zimmerit was applied uniformly between specific dates. It was used from IIRC Decemer 1943 through September, 1944. So, any gun tank, or tank destroyer built in that time period had it. The Germans were really pretty thorough and strict about it too. You don't see many exceptions to the rule. For example, every single Tiger I late had zimmerit since they were all built in this time period.
I am not a StuG IV expert but I think production started in November or December 1943 which would put them at the start of the zimmerit period.
This message has been edited by djnick66 from IP address 24.26.0.98 on Jul 8, 2012 9:29 AM
battle front had nothing to do with what vehicles got zim or not. But production of Zimmerit started in Sept. of 43 and ran to Sept of 44. A year. Early production Stug IVs would have zimmerit.
He was asking a legit question. Maybe he wants to build it CORRECTLY which is why he asked? And citing a restored museum resto-botch reconstruction is not a great way to prove a point. Few if any museum concoctions have original zimmerit and many that should do not, or that do have it added shouldn't
What if he DOESN'T want to add zimmerit? Does that make him an "incorrect" modler? No. I just said it's HIS model and he can build it any way HE wants..
Rather than the cop out its YOUR model do whatever you want. Usually if someone asks a question they care enough and want a good answer so they can decide for themselves. It looks like it is YES the early StuG IV has zimmerit. After that, its his choice, of course, to add it or not.
Prove to me that every tank and SPG had zimmerit comming from the factory.
It a simple request. Just provide the proof.
I've seen the Main Battle Tanks had zimmerit but I've also seen some of the mediums also carrying it but, very few pictures of the spg carring it. IT varies... So blasting me and pointing your anger in my direction is ok with me, as long as it makes you feel better...
You and I were NOT there so we can't make assumptions that "every" tank or spg that rolled off the factory floor had zimmerit. They needed tanks on the field and not have them sitting untill the zimmerit dried. Unless, they did it right before they boarded the trains heading to EITHER front.
Lots of SPG's had zimmerit... The StuG IV, StuG IV, Jagdpanzer IV, Jagdpanther and Jagdtiger can all have zimmerit.
Likewise, production runs of those tanks made before or after zimmerit was in use did NOT have it. It isn't that zimmerit was applied hap-hazzardly it was applied according to GUIDELINES.
We can make assumptions based on evidence like German documentation, production records, photographs, etc. Those carry a lot of weight.
Just because anybody and their brother can look it up on line doesn't make it correct. YOU have to go back in history, check all the files locked up in the very depts of Germany, and be able to translate it correctly, and provide substantial proof that "EVERY" vehicle that Krupp-Gruson at Magdeburg (chassis number 89324 to 89382 and 100001 to unknown) had zimmerit on it.
TD's were in short supply on BOTH fronts and some had zimmerit and others didn't.
Dan, we don't need a hall monitor on this site, he's just as capable as we are at seeking out 'proof' as you call it, and I'll answer questions but I'm not here to hold his hand. But if you have an emotional investment in it then you go right ahead and do it yourself.
You talk a good game but when your back is against the wall and I'm requesting "PROOF", YOU come up with some "lame" excuse.
Prove to me that every tank or spg that rolled out of the factory during those harsh conditions had zimmerit on it.
It's a simple request, make me want to believe that it did. But, without any proof, we are up to build these models to the best representation possible from the research we have.
And if it came "Pink and blue stripes", then paint it...
The problem with your notion is that it defies what evidence IS known.
We know the StuG IV was produced starting at a specific date.
We know zimmerit was in use by that time
We know that the Germans were very strict in following rules, even during Wartime conditions.
We know that other tanks like the Tiger I, King Tiger, Jagdtiger, Panther, have very spedific zimmerit applications (or not)
So with all of that PROOF on one side, its hard to say well I think they could have made X number of vehicles without zimmerit. Maybe they did? You can build YOUR model that way (thats a different story). But based on all evidence the vehicle in question probably had it unless someone can come up with PROOF it did not.
Edward Spaide (Login pzkfwmk6) HyperScale Forums 174.49.243.21
Just to throw in another aspect......
July 9 2012, 4:32 PM
Some of the armor had zimmerit applied in the field as well. While not as durable or "neat" a job as factory applied, it was still done. My opinion, and we all have one as proven here, is if you are building a specific vehicle gather as much photo evidence as possible to recreate that one. If you want to do a general representation of the vehicle, go by average sources. Of course, if you do the generic version, there will be someone who picks it apart and says it is wrong. This is a hobby, if you are doing the piece for a museum or consignment you'd better get it right, otherwise it's your build, have fun!
Older books talk about this but are there really any documented records and sources that this was ever the case. There has been a lot of discussion about field applied zimmerit on Missing Links and it seems thats another modeling myth that has been debunked along with the return of the use of grey paint at the end of the War.
What is interesting are the few oddball vehicles with zimmerit. I have seen a 251D halftrack with it, and the Russians captured a French Somua S35 with a full layer of zimmerit from the Germans on the Eastern Front.
Mark Cockbain (Login MarkCockbain) HyperScale Forums 174.88.214.186
What took a dump in your cornflakes this morning?
July 9 2012, 6:16 PM
You made your point that you just dont believe what you see in pictures of early Stug IVs and in existing German documents about production and Zimmerit application.
Now go get back on your meds and prehaps try to calm down a bit before you have a frigging stroke.
The OKH order was directed on December 29th of 1943.
Give or take a couple of weeks to get that order to the floor.
Finding the correct material for the order and then start putting it on tanks which by-the-way took 2 to 3 days to do.
The first layer, 5 mm thick, was allowed to dry for 24 hours. The second layer was 3 mm thick and its surface was formed into an uneven pattern with a metal comb. After drying for four hours, it was hardened with a blowtorch. (Without a blowtorch, it took eight days to harden.)
alot of you have blasted me with such wonderfull phrases, names and someone even called me "a 2 year old!"
Hey, if it makes you feel better belittling someone whom volunteered to defend this great country of ours for 22 + years, then go for it. Let me be your sounding board. If it makes you feel superior, then go for it.
All I asked for is one thing, proof. Some of you provided links and some other visual aids to steer me in the right direction to get the data I was looking for and I just posted it. To you individuals, thanks from me to you.
To those others whom blasted me, don't worry. I don't hold grudges or get even. Nor will I even blast back at you for making mistakes. Hey, we are all human and we ALL make mistakes from time to time. Hell, even I'm not perfect but I'm the type of person that will not quit untill I get all the facts, data and PROOF that I need to ensure my answer will be as correct as possible.
Good job. I am truely happy for you trying to improve your intelligence by name calling and accusing me of acting like a child. And yet, you just can't stop. To me, it sounds like someone needs a hug and a little time to figure out what his life is all about.
I've said this before, it's all about the research and I've found the answer that I wanted to hear..
Not all SPG that came from the factory had Zimmerit..
Did you do the research to find the answer? No, you didn't so I suggest before you posting a "Negative" thread, do your research on the subject at hand because since this is an open threaded forum, any body can see your "childish like" behavior and most likely will not believe anything you will write again.
The M60A1/A3 had cut away turret trainers as did the M48A5 when I was a young lieutenant. I also had ITV/FIST-V cut away turret trainers at my maintenance school.
Brian Jones (Login tbljones) HyperScale Forums 65.205.71.60
Not sure this Stug dosent have it
July 11 2012, 10:17 AM
I have better shots of this vehicle at home. I am pretty sure it has zimm on it .
I agree that there are exceptions to every rule especially when researching german armor in WWII and the existence of a few early Stugs devoid of zimm is certain ly possible as I have seen it with several other vehicles that fell within the time time frames.
"I defended this country so if you disrespect me you disrespect this country." Well lol you didn't 'defend' MY country pal, and even if you did I'd take you task for that dumb remark. Grow up. And furthermore you were a volunteer looking for a career not a conscript, so that BS doesn't wash with me, especially is it's used to defend a ridiculous talking point.
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