Thanks for that. The lables are off a little so I will detail them. The first two groups are at 50 yards with Hunters Supply 190gr lubed. The second picture is the 130gr bullet I recovered from the pigs head mushroomed on the skull. The third is a three shot group at 70 yards with the 130gr pure lead bullets that failed the pig skulls. All out of my Benjamin Rogue set on HIGH/170gr setting.
This message has been edited by L3Outdoors from IP address 184.108.40.206 on Dec 11, 2011 11:33 PM
Thanks for posting those. My computer thinks photobucket has a virus I have to look at them with my phone. My Rogue shoots good and I bet I could shrink those groups with a regular scope and not night vision. My Rogue likes a 3100psi fill and .358 bullets. I think the heavy bullets shoot good because of the longer bearing surface. The lighter bullets will shoot some tight groups but tend to have flyers that the heavy bullets don't. The heavy bullets also seem to have less change when the pressure drops. For example the 130gr shoot three really tight shots then will really open up the 4th and 5th shots. The heavy bullets don't do this in my gun.
Re: Curious if this Rogue came to you directly from Crosman.....
December 12 2011, 4:00 PM
My rifle came from Crosman in the box with 9psi in the tube and had never been shot that I know of. Not that it would matter or they would take the time to test a bunch of rifles before they sent me one. Bad news travels fast and all the bad reviews I have read on this rifle have been in the first 100 or so produced. I see people comment all the time on those reviews about how there Rogues are shooting 1/2 groups and they must have just got a bad rifle. Witch is how I feel too. The one thing I noticed is the people writing the bad reviews show pictures of poorlly rested rifles and never talk about cleaning the rifle. My rifle shoots dirty 20 shots and it's time to wipe down the barrel.
Heres what I do know about my Rogue. It shoots dirty and I never go more than 30 shots without wipeing down the barrel. It likes a 3100psi fill and uses 110psi per shot, it likes heavy bullets above 170gr, and doesn't shoot any 158gr or 160gr bullets good that I have tried. Light bullets shoot good for the first three shots then really open up. Heavy bullets wont open up but will vertical string slightly. My new Chrony will get here on Wensday and I will get some velocities of the heavy bullets. I also have 500 115gr hollow points to try from Hunters Supply.
Re: WOW! That bullet got stuck on that pigs skull? Do
December 12 2011, 8:57 PM
Dont take this the wrong way but that video will never be posted. I am not a fan of posting videos of animals that are wounded and run off. And it didnt just happen once it happened four times in the same night. There the bullet was flattened on the temple. The funny thing is that when I talked to several well know bullets manufactures they knew exacly what I was talking about with pure lead on head shots and said that the old settlers of Alaska knew never to shot Grizzly in the head with black powder rifles because the bullet would loose all it's energy expanding and not penatrate the skull. Same as shooting steel targets even thin ones. Your not going to shoot a hole in a steel target just by adding a few more FPS. If that where the case African guides would carry 22-250s ans 220 swifts. The FPE on a 22-250 is far more than some of the slow moving double rifles used in Africa. But we all know thats not how bullets really work. TKO is a much better scale for judging a bullets ablity on head shots.
Quote by L3Outdoors "The FPE on a 22-250 is far more than some of the slow moving double rifles used in Africa. "
22-250 muzzle energy 1772 fpe 470 nitro express muzzle energy 5132 fpe So what caliber double rifles are you referring to that have less fpe than a 22-250. You can save yourself if you want to change fpe to fps. LOL
This message has been edited by denskin from IP address 220.127.116.11 on Dec 13, 2011 9:41 AM This message has been edited by denskin from IP address 18.104.22.168 on Dec 13, 2011 9:39 AM
Here is the quote I was refering to when comparing bullet energy.
"TKO is found by multiplying bullet weight x muzzle velocity x caliber and then dividing everything by 7,000 which happens to be the number of grains in a pound. Muzzle energy is skewed towards muzzle velocity, while TKO emphasizes caliber and bullet weight.
A 55-grain bullet at 3.800 fps from a .220 Swift has a muzzle energy of 1.764 ft/lbs or the same as a 405-grain .45-70 at 1,400 fps. ME tells us they are equal; common sense says no. One is a long range varmint load while the other feels very comforting when up close on something that can bite back.
If we could apply TKO to both loads, which we cannot do because they are so different, the .220 Swift load comes out at 6.6 while the .45-70 scores 37.1. Taylor's formula makes quite good sense when comparing apples to apples; that is, .444 Marlin to .45-70 to .50 Alaskan."
I wonder what it causing the need to clean every 30 rounds.....I take it accuracy diminishes at that point? I am a bit baffled by that (along with the lead flattening on the skulls), as many of us shoot hundreds of rounds without cleaning with no loss in accuracy. There has to be something going on that is causing that......very unusual.
Personally, when sending a rifle to a prominent outfit/hunter with a healthy list of sponsors who owns a hog removal business featured on the Discovery Channel (that is some BIG TIME exposure there), I would expect ANY company to go over their product with a fine tooth comb before sending it off to them. Seeing as you dealt directly with Crosman, I have to lean towards thinking that they likely knew you are L3 Outdoors. You would make for an ideal field staffer for any outdoors-related company.....why would they NOT be certain you got their best? That wouldn't make a lick of sense.
Where are all the other Rogues doing 1/2 inch groups? Got any links? I'd like to see how the tide is turning with these Rogue rifles.....I think they would make for an ideal marmot/grey digger rifle.
Your video of the Nosler bullets seemed to do the job quite well. Why try to reinvent the wheel with a new projectile when you already have a tried and true? Secondly, speed coupled with mass increases KE no matter how you cut it, thus the 22-250 will never be the devastating round that the big bores will, in fact they should never even be compared as the principles are not apples to apples. Your Rogue with a smaller faster projectile may deliver the same fpe as a larger slower bullet at certain ranges. However, that threshold will be overcome at increased yardage and the larger will prevail. Bullets flattening on the side profile is a new one to me, I would love to see it. Furthermore four times in one night, after the second time the light should have come on! It does sound as if Crossman did have their best interest in mind when they sent you the gun as all other reports are sub par at best. If it were me I would go back to the tried and true and call it good.
This message has been edited by ucnttchtis from IP address 22.214.171.124 on Dec 13, 2011 5:03 PM
It was the only ammo I had with me on that hunt is why I didn't switch ammo during the hunt. To answer your other question as to why I don't keep using the Noslers is because I don't like head shots. The Nosler ammo was designed for head shots only and is not going to expand at airgun velocities and is a poor choice for body shots.
that I do is depredation work and am not shooting Whitetails or trophy game animals. If that once in a lifetime shot was on the line I would be shooting a 72. cal. But that is not needed in my line of work. What is needed is a rifle that can be carried several miles from my fill tank without the trouble of running out of air. My gun gives me 4 full power shots on HIGH the I have 6 shots left on MEDIUM setting. Even shooting at large groups of pigs you rarely shoot more than 10 times without going back to a truck or camp. I shoot two bullets right now for body shots 170gr Keith bullet from Rim Rock, and a 190gr WFN LBT from Hunters Supply. I shoot a lot of pigs in the head as well but try to keep head shots under 50 yards since they are tricky at best. And the behind the ear shot most people call a head shot is not a head shot but is a neck shot. A pigs skull stops about midline of the ear and doesn't come to the back of the ear. A shot in the ear usualy breaks the neck, and the only brain shot on a broadside pig is between the eye and the ear. Here is to videos to prove what I am saying. The first is a neck shot the bullet entered the base of the ear and didn't touch the skull at all. The second is a perfect brain shot. Notice the large amount of blood shooting in the air. This is because of the arteries feeding the brain. Hit the brain dead center and you will also hit the arteries in the center of the brain.
No` I haven't seen a 202 get 22 shots at over 700+fps with a 145gr and 160gr bullets on LOW setting. I have never seen the Korean 9mm guns on HIGH come close to the velocities the Rogue gets with heavy bullets on it's LOW setting. Not even the new Recluse. You know pig anatomy but many on this site don't or live in an area without pigs. One thing I notice on the pigs in your pictures is that they look like true ferals and not the Euro hybrids in my area. I killed the first pig this year that lacked the hybrid tooth in the last 11 years. For those that don't hunt pigs European and their hybrids have a useless tooth between the cutter and grinding teeth. True feral pigs decending from domestic pigs lack this tooth. In my area several high fence operations imported these pigs from Europe for trophy hunting. When they couldn't sell the hunts they turned the pigs loose or went out of business and the fences rotted. Most of the pigs I my area look like they came straight out of Europe.
This message has been edited by L3Outdoors from IP address 126.96.36.199 on Dec 14, 2011 6:22 PM
Josh please remember if you don't already know, that you are preaching to the choir here. There are some very experienced hunters and shooters here. Please be respectful of the veterans here. There are things that can be learned. I as well as others here have been to Texas hog hunting.
This message has been edited by denskin from IP address 188.8.131.52 on Dec 14, 2011 6:37 PM
Not trying to be disrespectfull to other pig hunters or anyone else for that matter. I try to be discriptive when I write so that people that dont know will be able to understand. There are also a lot of people that read the site that are not members and never comment. I for one have been following the site for over a year before I joined.
I am also not trying to sell anyone on the Rogue. My reason to choose the Rogue is it will almost match the balistics of a subsonic 308 supressed rifle and will out do a subsonic 6.8 or 223 all day long. Key word is subsonic. I am not saying they will out do a full power supersonic load in a 6.8 or 223. Now the Rogue will do this off the shelf and is already set up with a LCD without the paper work that goes with a supressed rifle.
This message has been edited by L3Outdoors from IP address 184.108.40.206 on Dec 14, 2011 6:50 PM
I for one am one that has to temper my thoughts before I type the post, cause when your not face to face things can be taken out of context. I have no doubt that you picked the correct air rifle for the job, given the power and suppression values. For those of us where sound doesen't matter, then the DAQ .457 or .50 works nicely. Do you work in urban areas, cause I was wondering if a shroud was necessary ?
Yes I shoot pigs in HOA's, golf courses, airports, and city parks plus farm and ranch properties and state parks. The airports will let me shoot the air rifle and said heck no to a supressed rifle, same answer we got from the citys. Any place I don't need a supressor I use regular firearms.
Even if you buy the big custom 45s with an LCD you still don't have the cost and hassel in owning a supressed firearm. The best prices I have seen on supressed rifles has been around $1800.00 for cheap rifle, $250.00 for the paper work, and four to six months wait. Been there done that wont do it ever again. Thats even before you add night vision to the dang things. The Rogue and a few other customs are at the highest end of the price range on big boar air rifles but still several hundred dollars cheaper than a cheap Supressed firearm. No paper work, no wait, no hassel if pulled over traveling, and more accurate. Also times that by five employes and you have burned up half a years profit in one investment. Now do the same to a Korean gun or Corsair and you are only in about $750.00 and still produce less decibles of sound. The only advantage I can see with a supressed rifle is well nothing. Maybe a few more FPS. Subsonic ammo wont cycle the action on semiautos so you have to cycle the action like a bolt action, or build the gun around a bolt action. Even if it will cycle the action like say a 45acp the accuracy sucks so bad your gunna need those extra shots. I have shot thousands of rounds through Supressed rifles and a 1 1/5 groups at 50 yards is pretty dang good for those guns. WHY because they didn't design the bullets and powder to function at 900 to 1000fps. And if they do shoot better your are going to pay dearly for it. If you dont hand load then we are really talking big bucks. Custom supressed ammo is around $35 to $55 dollars for 20 rounds. Compair that to a airgun and you have $30 to $60 dollars for 500 cast bullets. Even adding the cost of tanks or pumps and it's still cheaper and easyer to go the airgun route.
If you have never seen it happen then I don't know what to tell ya. I have seen it happen many times with high powered rifles let alone an air rifle. Hell just ask trappers that have shot a lot of pigs with pistols and they will tell ya some horror stories and that is at point blank range.
I was using my phone and responded to the other post about the 300 Whisper. Not the price of airguns. Thats the problem with forums. If you where talking to someone on the phone they would understand you completely, but forums bounce around so much that things get miss understood.
No such thing as 5 full power shots if you do not have a regulator in the gun,get a chronograph you will see. The shots maybe almost the same but with each shots the air psi will go down. I am NOT a fan at all of the Rogue,but it has a regulator some what. Bob
This message has been edited by 909bob from IP address 220.127.116.11 on Dec 15, 2011 3:16 AM
If it directed towards me; I think it was on the Yellow......might have been GTA. We asked a Rogue owner to record shot strings at a known fill pressure, and record the end fill pressures. He did so, and the resulting air efficiency ("seen") compared to other bigbore airguns ("did" when it comes to my own tuned bigbore) was quite poor all things considered. Seeing as he was looking for help with his Rogue, I have no reason to suspect the numbers to be anything but accurate.
The Crosman claim is 20 shots@150fpe (EDIT:changed 180 to 150) using a ?140?grain slug on low power. No one has come anywhere near displaying that type of shot string yet. Personally, I can't wait to see such a string become reality even from a Rogue that is straight from Crosman, let alone an off-the-shelf version.
There has never been any such claim of 20 shots on low using the Nosler 145gr. Current data has us getting the following:
145 High = 3 shots
145 Med = 9 shots
145 Low = 16 shots
After 3 shots on high the PSI is around 2500. That's plenty of air for a few on Medium. Shift to Low and the Rogue will deliver same POI all the way to 1465 PSI.
Every single Rogue gets the same love, whether it's going to a retail customer, reviewer or sponsored advertiser. If you know of a recent negative review from an *actual owner*, post the link because we want to know about it.
thus the question marks. I do know that you made the claim that the Rogue would produce 20 shots @150fpe.....what weight of slug is used to get that type of performance?
Chip, if you know of a 20 shot string produced by a Rogue ANYWHERE please post a link. I'm sure we would all very much like to see it.
I am happy to hear that the bugs are being worked out, and would like to (at long last) see the 20 shot string performance we've been hearing about for so long. I think you will wind-up selling more of these rifles based on the low power/high shot count strings than the high power/low shot count strings, as the large platform seems geared more toward high-volume, low mobility-type shooting such as P-dogs and ground sqwerls and such.