Here's one I hadn't heard before...April 14 2017 at 11:48 AM
|Dave Dunn (Login daved20319)|
Had a powder burner for sale on a different forum and wasn't getting any interest, not only no responses, but not even much in the way of looks. I've only just gotten back into firearms after a nearly 20 year hiatus, so I'm not nearly as familiar with pricing as I am airguns. So I put up a post asking why. Only got one response to that post, guy said yes, I was over-priced, I don't agree with his comparables, but we're all entitled to our opinions. But then he said part of the reason it was over-priced was "it's a short action (.308 Win.), and they're not as desirable". Really?!
As far as I understand it, action length is determined by cartridge choice, and that choice is based on intended use. And from research prompted by his statement, depending on the list, of the top 10 most popular current rifle cartridges, somewhere around half are short actions, with the .308 consistently in the top 5. Based on other stuff he said, I wrote the guy off as either a newb that just had to say something, or a wannabe gun "expert" that was repeating something he thought sounded profound. So did I do him a disservice, are short action rifles "less desirable"? And if so, why?
On a related note, I've decided NOT to sell that particular rifle, instead, I'm going to try a muzzle brake, see if that helps with my recoil sensitivity. I've read that it can reduce the recoil significantly, making the .308 feel more like a .223/5.56. Just recently built my first AR and am thinking about a second, but if I can get the .308 down to a similar recoil level, I'd be a happy camper. Later.
Agree with you...
|April 14 2017, 12:39 PM |
...on what "short action" means.
Regarding recoil, I'd try a recoil-absorbing butt pad. Check out www.Brownells.com. Even if your rifle already has one, you may be able to find a better one there, one that actually works. Many are now just for looks: One thing I loathe about modern airguns is that they seem to inevitably come with recoil-absorbing butt pads. I think they look silly on anything other than centerfire rifles and shotguns.
Is your .308 very light? That could explain the harsh recoil. I've heard of folks putting lead shot hidden in the forearm and butt (taking care to ensure that the rifle is balanced) to fix that.
then guy is misinformed or a dork..story,When I was a kid,I
|April 14 2017, 2:03 PM |
read all I could about the 30-06, I memorizes all loads,ft.lbs and velocity for each load...that is the cartridge the military used;then they went to the .308...guess what,almost all the 30-06 could do the .308 could do..
A short"throw" bolt action is a great action..I do not see any problem with it as far as price and intent go; FACT the brand of rifle would have more effect on prices than the action...
|This message has been edited by boscoebrea on Apr 14, 2017 2:20 PM|
If recoil in a .308 bothers you....stay away from springers!
|April 14 2017, 2:23 PM |
Just to be clear for the overly sensitive: I AM NOT SELLING ANYTHING HERE. In fact....you might want to make the same statement in your OP before you get banned.
Ok, in some calibers there are short actions and long actions. That is in the SAME caliber. Yes, the same caliber. I am thinking of Remington model 700s at the moment. In .243 they were produced in a short action and a long action. The wonderful 22-250 also came in short and long actions from several makers.
Don't hold me to this, but I think the reason is simply: modified calibers/parent cases. Kind of like when I put one of my jackets on my son. Take your .308. To some it is really just a short .30-06 (actually it is a LONG .300 Savage). So if you have a .308 that was built on a .30-06 action you would essentially have a long actioned .308. I have two Garands (not for sale): One in .30-06 (not for sale) the other in .308 (not for sale). Same action. The not-for-sale .308 would be considered a "long" action just because it is longer than needed for the .308 cartridge. (Don't even get me started on .38spec vs .357 or .44spec vs .44mag)
Which one is more desirable? Lets see: I once asked a whitetail deer: "Do you prefer the short action or the long action?" He said "I refuse to answer on the grounds that I am dead as a doornail and have no freaking idea which one killed me."
Now...before you toss your .308 (not for sale) because of recoil, and before you ruin it with a muzzle break....consider lighter bullets and lower velocity loads. I make my own loads for .30-06 (child of the .30-03 and grandchild of the .30-01 (not for sale) that feel like a .22 (not for sale) when shot from my Springfield (not for sale) or my M1 Garand (not for sale). These are used for target competitions where precision and not power are key....but I sure as heck would not want to catch one down range.
If you don't reload....get into it. Its fun and frustrating! I will meet you over at the ReloadBench.com and keep you from killing yourself.
John in FL.
|April 14 2017, 3:03 PM |
Agree with John. The guy is a dork who
|April 15 2017, 9:48 AM |
probably is willing to take the gun off your hands for 50% of its true value. I am also a recoil wimp. Often have thought it might be caused because I've worn glasses since I started grade school. Being very active, I was always getting my glasses broke. Thus I am very sensitive to anything near my face. Now that I am a tottering old man I am not so sure that is the reason.....but even an R7 requires my concentration not to flinch.
I also don't like loud noises. Many muzzlebrakes increase the noise so that is something to consider. The correct stock and a 4 foot long varmint barrel should help significantly with recoil.
We don't seem to be able to check crime, so why not legalize it and then tax it out of business? - Will Rogers
Hmm...is that for me? Or did you make a typo? nt
|April 16 2017, 6:28 PM |
|This message has been edited by CuomoSux on Apr 16, 2017 6:40 PM|
John in FL.
Don't be so hard on yourself, I'm agreeing with Jesse. Rodney King said... nt
|April 16 2017, 7:43 PM |
|This message has been edited by gratewhitehuntr on Apr 16, 2017 8:52 PM|
OK, now you owe us
|April 14 2017, 4:10 PM |
What is it? Curious minds gots to know! If a Savage 110, it might come into play for someone looking to rebarrel since that could limit cartridge choices. However, you would only lose one or two prospective buyers. You action is sized correctly for your cartridge and, since most folks buy to shoot as-is, isn't a problem. Some guys have to throw in their two cents. Now tell us what you've got.
|April 14 2017, 5:06 PM |
My Rock River LAR 10 shoots like a dream. If you go down the AR style 308 road make sure you understand which magazine it takes.
Remington 788 .308 in lefty,Remington 760 30-06..
|April 14 2017, 5:49 PM |
not for sale...but forget all the BS,.308 is short action, 30-06 is long action, because the shells are different lengths.. many different cal. can be chambered in either action.Had a 788 in.222,accurate as anything..how accurate Jesse,1/2" at 100 yds...which is about as accurate as my .22 rimfire ...which rimfire could that be Jesse, guess.
Sorry I changed the subject,but my goodness there is so much tension that I feel like sharpening some butter knives...
John in FL.
Other than for the prospect of a rebarrel, I don't see a problem with short actions.
|April 14 2017, 6:36 PM |
Matter of fact, IF I were after a .308 (not in the market) it would only be in a short action.
Same goes for any progeny of the .308 such as 7mm-08, 243, 338 Federal, etc etc, (none of which I'm in the market for at this time)
Mostly because I have a 6.5 Swede, light kicking not too loud and great external and terminal performance.
Oh yeah that reminds me, 260 Rem also .308 based... AKA 6.5-08...(but I wouldn't buy one)
|This message has been edited by gratewhitehuntr on Apr 14, 2017 6:40 PM|
I got one of those Swede 6.5 Mausers..nice...nt
|April 14 2017, 9:12 PM |
To satisfy the inquiring minds...
|April 14 2017, 9:29 PM |
The rifle in question (which is NOT for sale!) is a Remington SPS Tactical with a 20" heavy barrel. To cut to the chase, I'm a wimp when it comes to rifle recoil, always have been. Don't know why, I can spend all day on the trap range with a Remington 870 12 ga., but the .308 is right on the line for me, some days it doesn't bother me, most days it does. I fell in love with the feel of this rifle, and was in the market for a do anything shooter, so I bought it, but I don't think I have 100 rounds through it in the 5 or 6 years I've owned it. To put that in perspective (?), I've owned my AR for about a month and already have more than 200 rounds through it, and will be going to the range this weekend with my first reloads for it.
Muzzle brake vs. recoil pad, it actually has a very good, very effective pad on it, so refer back to my previous comment about being a recoil wimp. It does a good job of soaking up recoil, but I would still like something that actually reduces the felt recoil. As to "ruining" my rifle with a brake, I discovered that there are bolt on brakes available, no machining required, so no rifle mods needed, and at less than $100, surprisingly inexpensive. That's the way I'll be going, if it works for me, great, if not, I can always put it back up for sale.
Reduced recoil reloads, on my list, but for now, I intend to focus on the .223/5.56 and my 9mm. If the brake works out, reloading for the .308 will move to the top of the priority list.
Was actually considering a .308 AR, but after doing some research, I discovered the 6.5's, Creedmore for the AR10 and Grendal for the AR15. For my purposes, I think the Grendal will win out, but the ballistics are shockingly good for just about anything in that caliber. But this, too, is somewhat dependent on how the brake for the .308 works out.
So, as always, one thing leads to another. I love the AR platform, which surprised me, and I really want to love my .308. I've already thrown some money at the AR, first building it, then getting setup to reload for it, now I'm going to throw a little at the .308 and see if it can be the rifle I hoped it would be when I bought it. If not, it'll get to finance my next AR build
! Later, and thanks for all the responses.
No need to apologize
|April 15 2017, 12:12 AM |
I can't tolerate much recoil for medical reasons. You might also try some factory reduced recoil loads. I recently bought a Marlin 336 in 30-30 and just picked up a box of Hornady reduced rounds. I don't know how you shoot but you might want to try a Cadwell Lead Sled. Good for the bench. BTW, that's a nice gun you have there.
Have one of those, too...
|April 15 2017, 2:26 AM |
It's an older one, I'm essentially holding it hostage on the off chance my little brother will return some tools he borrowed years ago. Killed two birds with one stone on that, LOP was a little short for me, a slip on pad fixed that problem, with the bonus of reducing the recoil. It's not bad with 150 gr. loads, but the 170's push it over the line for me. I tend to forget I have it, now that you've reminded me, I'll have to pick up a box of the reduced recoil loads to try out.
Looked real hard at a Lead Sled, may pick one up someday, but it really doesn't suit my shooting style, even when bench shooting. I see it mostly as a testing tool, i.e. load/accuracy testing, or sighting in a scope. Sort of like a Ransom rest for handguns. They're both good at taking the shooter out of the equation, but don't have much utility for real life shooting. Later.
I paid $750.00 tax and processing for the 700P back in 2005. Heavy=low recoil,
|April 16 2017, 12:46 AM |
to me. You need to snuggle up a bit more-it's not good to go with the "artillery hold".
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Reduced loads and muzzle brakes
|April 16 2017, 3:05 AM |
A number of big-name manufacturers offer reduced loads with bullets designed specifically for deer hunting. Sorry I don't have the list at my fingertips, but you can google them. If you're not already hand loading, try out the factory stuff first.
I have a factory BOSS muzzle brake on a Win Mod 70 .338 mag and it is very effective. I know, my previous Mod 70 .338 did not have a brake and the recoil was a bit unpleasant when fired over sand bags.
funny you mention this...
|April 15 2017, 9:10 AM |
I have an old Remington model 600 .308 short action hunting rifle I used to shoot with my grandfather. He passed away and left it to me. It is a very short, very light cannon with a ribbed barrel that is perfect for tromping thru thick woods after deer or whatever because it is very light and very short. However like you I do not enjoy the heavy recoil it has. Being a bolt action it is not masked by gas action like an AR and being so very light and short it is about the worst possible situation for recoil. It does wear a rather good aftermarket slip on recoil pad in addition to the factory pad but it does not do much to help. To be honest with you this rifle sits in the case and has been shot very seldom. When I shoot it I usually fire a couple rounds and put it away because it is basically not fun to shoot. I have considered on several occasions taking the rifle out of the stock and trying to refit a new stock to it that is more target oriented in nature and perhaps adding a heavy barrel. My grandfather told me before he died that the rifle was NOT a collector piece and even tho it was his he wanted me to use it however I chose which included modifying it if I chose basically he wanted me to enjoy it. Somehow I have always been torn between modifying it so I would be inclined to actually shoot it or leave it exactly how I received it so I can remember him and how it was when we shot it together. I know he would prefer that I actually shoot the rifle and would want me to do what is necessary to get use out of it. This saddens me having to choose between the two.
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John in FL.
My 300win m70 came with a synthetic stock and slim barrel.
|April 15 2017, 11:04 AM |
It was BRUTAL and left marks (bruises) after a couple shots. Very high recoil velocity!
Gun weighed about 8lbs in original scoped configuration and was generating about 33LBS recoil, with a rock hard pad.....eeeeyyyyyyoooooowwww!!!!!!
I've never been recoil sensitive and rather humorously the guns that no one else would shoot have gone to me. That was fine, and I get a kick out getting kicked!
Having said that, the 300 was just too much for long sessions, particularly when testing handloads!
Stuffing the buttstock FULL of cast bullets helped immensely, you can use a recoil calculator to gauge the exact changes based on adding weight to the gun.
It will reduce free recoil velocity.
Next was a Pachmayr triple magnum recoil pad, and I left if full size LOL.
The real reason I left the pad full size is my intention to replace the stock eventually and there is no point fitting that pad to a crappy plastic stock, but the fittment would remove over one square inch of pad that I'd really like to use.
Edit, looking at Gruntled's post got me thinking about body type and recoil.
The slender folks probably feel more recoil.
My pectoral, anterior deltoid and bicep all get bunched up into the shoulder pocket and the bruises were actually on my pectoral and bicep.
There is no real path to bone with a chuck roast in the way.
Have you tried one of those shoulder pads or some kind of vest? There must be something with lead shot etc to thicken up that area or add weight to be moved before recoil is felt....
|This message has been edited by gratewhitehuntr on Apr 15, 2017 2:32 PM|