church of God forum

Contact Us-IVox Populi blog
 


  << Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Forum  

What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 5 2007 at 12:31 AM
Gentile  (no login)

 
Sophia wrote: "AMEN to reading the Word. That is where the Greeley congregation began finding that God was calling them, individually, to something 'other'. I have asked many where they felt that this first became clear - and the answer was in the Bible Studies that were being held in homes throughout the week in small groups. Reading and delving into the Word - and praying for understanding. No wonder Bible Studies were a 'no-no' at that time. I don't know if they still are or not. But I know it caused much consternation that Bible Studies were taking place without ministers being present- and outside of the church building.

Even as a child this struck me as truly ironic since it was Menno Simons belief that 'the people' should have access to the Word and not just hearing it through the mouths of the priests of the RC church that got him into so much hot water...er...fire. Any discouragement from reading the Word - in ANY setting - with ANY people - is - in my opinion - a sure sign that it is not of God."

What really happened in Greeley, Colorado? Just curious, as a preacher who had relatives there, recently said his congregation was going the route of Greeley, to be a Greeley #2.

 
 Respond to this message   
AuthorReply


(Login gskoehn)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 5 2007, 2:00 AM 

So - who ya askin'? I'm sure the story from the ministers of the CGCM (Hey! Fred! I did it! ) would be a bit different than the story of an ex-member from Greeley. I was 8 years old - so am not so comfortable answering this as a whole - but would be more than happy to get a 'I was there' from my dad for ya!

As for another congregation going the way of Greeley - to be a Greeley #2. Hmmm - gotta say - what I know is that an entire congregation except for 4 families were expelled - and later excommunicated - and resulted in some of the strongest - most beautiful Christians I know. If the results were to be the same - a congregation of people alive in the love of Jesus and ready to share that love - than I must say 'Praise the Lord'.

That said - I had a cousin's spouse (kind of distant family - rarely saw them growing up because of that little thing called avoidance) - do a GASP quite literally after we had met at a family reunion - and in the chitchat she asked where I was from. I said 'Greeley'. She looked TERRIFIED!! I asked her what she knew of Greeley as I was aware that Greeley had a reputation for smelling like feedlots from the many years of that (thank goodness now further out of town!!) - but that I had never had quite her reaction before. And she asked - I kid you not - whisper - "Is that the place where they were having orgies and had to excommunicate the entire congregation?"

Folks - I lost it. I'll admit it! I cracked up laughing - and my laugh is NOT a silent lady like tee-hee-hee. Nope - I bust a gut. Had LOTS of people looking our direction. And of course she looked even MORE aghast. I quickly reassured her that I was laughing only because I had NEVER heard such a thing - and that this had NEVER occurred - and that while yes - an entire congregation DID get excommunicated - that it was a congregation of God-fearing Christians who had continued to worship together for years after and that in fact the congregation still existed though it had merged with another Old Mennonite church in town. And I tried to ask more questions about what she had heard - and where she had heard it - but of course she was quite ready to move on to a less, uh, scary relative.

So...there really is a question of 'what really happened in Greeley'. What's agreed upon is that a congregation was Ex'd - and that 4 families almost immediately moved away from the area to other congregations. The charges - well that's documented. Pretty sure my father in law has his - he mentioned it not too long ago. But WHY the charges - and what was truly done to deserve them? Well - I'm sure that depends on whether you're asking one of the ministers who rolled up in the four-door and piled into each home one after another - or those who were subjected to the questioning. And yes - I remember them showing up.

I also know that Gerald Mininger quite literally STOPPED the revival minister from preaching one night because of the direction things were going. Gerald was our minister. He is a precious man to me. And yes - he stood - in the middle of sermon a, b, c or d - and stopped it and told the minister he would not be continuing to preach in that church. I'm sure that made him none-too-popular.

Hank - if he's around - can help with some details as well as he is good friends with many of the X's from here. And shortly after (this was 1976) - the purge began its sweep. 30 years. wow.

So - who ya askin'? And who will be the first to ask...but...did it REALLY happen that way???

 
 
Scott
(no login)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 5 2007, 7:05 AM 

" Gerald Mininger quite literally STOPPED the revival minister from preaching one night because of the direction things were going."


Do they even give lip service anymore to the idea of a pastor protecting his own flock? Even if they do, please don't try it at home without CGCM supervision.

Perhaps Gerald's life would have been better served by helping the bailiff line all the sheep up in the chute so the cloak and dagger boys,i.e., the revival ministers also known as the Elite Guard, SS, Gestapo, etc. could impregnate the woolies with the semen of nicolatianism.


 
 


(Login bawar)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 5 2007, 7:25 AM 

Don Millsap must have been involved with that situation. He would speak on it as if it happened yesterday. Speaking to him, you could sense the turmoil he had to wrestle in his own heart to keep himself on track to justify what they did. It doesn't take much prodding to get him to become uneasy in discuss in this matter.

About 3 weeks after I joined the H, I spoke to man from Colorado, and became fast friends with him. He is the guy that taught me how to fix ammonia fridges, so I spent hours speaking to him.

Any how, he was raised a old Mennonite, but sort of went by the wayside, however his best friends were exed out of the "Greeley problem".

He spoke on the phone to me for 5 minutes and knew I was an H! And I thought woe! He described what the h ministers did to them, and I knew I made a wrong turn in the narrow way.

It took me 8 years to get off that little wayside retreat and may never get completely over it!

(Scarred for life)


 
 


(Login gskoehn)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 5 2007, 12:01 PM 

By the way, Gentile - in case you're new to the forum - I'm Sophia Koehn. Daughter of Ken and Margaret Wiggers. My grandfathers were Min. Arnold Wiggers - Halstead KS and Min. Jake H. Loewen - Glenn, CA and then Phoenix, AZ. I married Glenn Koehn - son of Billy and Viola Koehn. His Grandfathers were John B. Koehn - uh - I think Atwater (Livingston???), CA - and Henry Giesbrecht - Glenn, CA.

My parents and Glenn's parents were among the first couples to settle in Greeley to start the Majestic View Mennonite Church here (yes - we all still live here). I was the first baby born in that congregation (collective...awwwwwww). My parents moved here in 1966. Gerald Mininger was the only Minister of the church during the entire time the congregation was part of the CGCM. (Fred's going to be so proud of me!! lol)

Here's a cut and paste from Hank regarding the charges, etc. I'll bump my 'Who was that masked woman' thread up to the top - it was my intro of myself to the forum - and there is some discussion on there about Greeley.

"Thank-you Sophia. for sharing. It is interesting to hear the story from a second generation Greeley person. Yes my friends, gsk got it right about the happenings and I know what specifically happened that lead to revivals being shut down after 4 days.

I should add that the congregation ( at least 90 + % of them) were offically expelled enmass for "an incorrect view of justification by faith". However, several yeras later CGCM issued a letter apoligizing for that, saying that G. Mininger in fact was preaching the truth on this subject; and they (cgcm hiearchy) were wrong. But of course, the congregation refused to "blend spirits" with cgcm (some of you would specifically call it the holdegod issue) in the struggle that was going on during the purge."

 
 


(Login gskoehn)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 5 2007, 12:04 PM 

Gentile, any chance we could know who this minister is that said his congregation is going the way of Greeley? Since they 'reversed' their decision on whether it was a rightful decision or not (by that time, the congregation had moved on - bluff called) - I would be surprised if the charges were the same. Thus I have to assume that this person is either speaking in generalities as in 'an entire congregation like in Greeley' - or possibly has bought into some sort of rumor as to what occurred. I can't quite imagine the CGCM expelling an entire congregation on the same grounds of the 'heresy' of justification by faith.

If you can share more - I'm of course curious.

 
 
Kevin
(no login)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 5 2007, 7:01 PM 

Gentile, I'm curious as well.

 
 
Gentile
(no login)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 5 2007, 10:23 PM 

Thank you for sharing your memories Sophia! Some of the predictions from this preacher may have come about when families or the youth in his congregation would have evening devotions in their homes (without a staff member) which included singing, a Bible quiz, sharing of new birth experiences, and prayer. From what you wrote, this makes sense that these would be classified as 'Home Bible Studies' and therefore promoting a "Greeley Spirit"...

I'm amazed about the apology too. A good sign. Did they apply Jesus teaching on the bruised reed and smoking flax (Matthew 12:20) before "casting out" so many?

What did these home Bible studies consist of if I may ask?

 
 


(Login gskoehn)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 6 2007, 12:08 AM 

Now that's funny!! I didn't know there was a 'Greeley spirit'. Sure am glad I only have to worry about one Spirit in my life - the Holy one!

As for the bible studies content - I do not know. I would have to ask those who were, ahem, a bit older than I was! I just emailed dad to ask.

I also sent him your question about the broken reed scriptural reference.

I was curious enough on that one to go digging. Found an excellent write-up (agreed to or not agreed to - it's well done) - on the topic of the parable teaching of the bruised reed to not be broken nor the smoking flax quenched. I'll paste it in its entirety - with source reference - on a separate post here so as not to confuse what is my writing vs. that documentation. (though probably obvious! That one isn't filled with cute yellow smilies!! ).

But it brings to me a question. The document I found interpreting and illustrating this scripture - in full context not just the one verse but within Jesus' addressing issues with the Pharisees and the key timeframe for fulfilling the law that this scripture comes from - refers to this being in reference to the state of Israel. Makes sense to me. And I'm not making the jump from how that refers to Greeley - or any congregation of any Christian denomination???

Is the reference you are making that Greeley is similar to Israel in the parable and was found broken and 'smoking' and then cast aside and quenched without....well that's where I get lost on that theory of my trying to figure out what your question meant.

Or were you perhaps referring to God's actions towards Israel and how the CGCM should have handled things with a congregation?

I'm quite puzzled as to how a scripture referencing specific events and words spoken by Jesus as fulfillment of prophecy - and part of fulfilling Moses' law - ties in to CGCM's actions towards the congregation in Greeley. Can you shed some light on what you are asking there? I guess I wouldn't expect the CGCM to be attempting to put themselves into the spot of either God (allowing Israel to become broken in order to have prophecy fulfilled), Israel (since we certainly were all Gentiles!!), or Jesus (speaking and doing the specific acts to fulfill prophecy). So I'm not sure which 'part' CGCM plays in this parable - and which part the Greeley Cong. played. Englighten me please!!

Gentile...your pseudonym gives me no idea whether you're tied in with the CGCM now or in the past - or whether you have just found us through curiosity - all I know is you're not a Jew! lol So I'm assuming I'm not speaking to a staff member of the CGCM who would have access to some of my questions here - if that is not the case and you can indeed answer these questions for the CGCM - by all means - please jump in!! But I don't wish to put you in a spot to say 'who' you are either. I respect the anonymity that this forum provides. So I'll address some of my other thoughts/questions to the forum at large - hoping that perhaps some CGCM members can elaborate...

To the forum:
In order for there to be 'rightful cause' under CGCM's guidelines to expel or excommunicate - obviously charges had to be set against the people being expelled. What's greatly puzzling to me (and Hank??? perhaps you can shed some light here??) - is if there was an apology - and an attempt to draw the congregation back 'into the fold' later - and the congregation - or - I'm guessing - each individual expellee - turned down this offer for reinstatement of membership - since the CGCM basically admitted to an invalid expelling/excommunication in this case - how then does the CGCM stand behind avoidance/shunning of those wrongfully expelled? I'm sitting here a bit stunned tonight for this is the first time that this thought has come to me...that if the CGCM indeed admitted to wrongful expelling - and would have reinstated - then how does the church support avoidance in this particular case?

Hmmm - thinking this through further - I'm guessing that the answer is 'Well - if they had come BACK to the fold - forgiving us as we apologized - then of course there wouldn't be shunning/avoidance'. Yes - I'm not likely to win a debate on the idea of members willfully expelling THEMSELVES - and no longer wishing readmittance under any circumstances still being held to membership 'rules' which include agreement to be shunned or avoided if you are under repentance. Once under repentance - ALWAYS under repentance...until reinstatement? Am I wording that correct?? I think it's a load of manure headed for the fields to be spread on thick - but hey - I don't get to write the CGCM doctrine - only question it.

 
 


(Login gskoehn)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 6 2007, 12:14 AM 

Here is the material I referenced above:

St. Matthew having given an account of some precautions which Christ made use of in order that the people at large might not know him; quotes the above passage from Isaiah, as being fulfilled by Christ….

The house of Israel is here represented by the similitude of a bruised reed, by which is meant the low condition in which Christ found it when he came. The prophet looked forward from his day, and beholding the house of Israel in a low state of servitude, represented it by a bruised reed, and then prophesied of the Messiah and his coming, and said he would not break what little strength it retained, (which was then only in the scepter of Judah, or ‘staff’, or reed of his tribeship,) until he had fulfilled the law and made it honorable which I understand by his sending forth judgment unto victory. The continuance of Judah’s scepter until the coming of Shiloh, was spoken of by Jacob, See Gen. 10. It was to continue until Shiloh should come, after which it was broken: Observe, the bruised reed was not to be broken, nor the smoking flax quenched, until judgment was sent forth unto victory; which intimates that the reed would then be broken and the flax quenched. Flax is extremely combustible, and quickly consumed by fire, and as it smokes a little after the fire has passed it, before it is entirely gone; so the house of Israel is represented as almost wholly exhausted of its strength, and dying like the wick of a candle after the blaze is extinguished; but it should not be entirely quenched until righteousness should gain the victory over sin. Then was Judah’s scepter broken, and the light, strength and glory of the legal dispensation vanished forever.

ILLUSTRATION.
It is remarkable that notwithstanding the low condition of the Jews, and their servitude under the Roman yoke, yet they were preserved, and retained their ecclesiastical order until they had an opportunity to exercise that power in fulfilling the scripture prophecies concerning the Messiah. Had the scepter departed from Judah, or a lawgiver from between his feet, before Shiloh came, and that people had been broken up and dispersed as they were immediately afterwards, they would not have been in a situation to fulfill all that the prophets had written concerning Christ; they could not have said “We have a law, and by our law he ought to die.”

If we duly consider that all the other tribes of the children of Israel had become extinct before the coming of Shiloh, and even that of Judah was reduced to contemptible weakness, yet preserved for the fulfillment of Jacob’s prophecy, and the many other prophecies concerning the Messiah, it must operate as a very forcible argument in favor of the divinity of those scriptures which were so remarkably fulfilled. What power of human wisdom, can we reasonably suppose, could discover to the dying patriarch that Judan would be the only surviving tribe, and that he would survive until the coming of Shiloh? If we attribute this to the sagacity of human wisdom, with a design to avoid the idea of divine inspiration, we only defeat our object, by giving to human wisdom that prescience which amounts to as much as divine inspiration.

Source for this material is:
"Notes on the Parables of the New Testament"
Scripturally Illustrated and Argumentatively Defended
by HOSEA BALLOU
Author of "Treatise on Atonement", "Candid Review"
re-published 1860 (hmmm! Wonder if J.H. ever read this?? ) by author revision. First published 1831
Book was in the Harvard Theological Library (digitized now)

And here is the Internet link if you're interested in the full book! I typed the text I referenced above - so please excuse any typos I might have made. I did work to copy it word for word and it does NOT include any comments by me within it.


 
 


(Login gskoehn)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 6 2007, 12:36 AM 

Gentile (and anybody else interested in hearing testimony of one coming out of Majestic View Mennonite in Greeley) - here is a link to Weldon Koehn's story. He titled it Coming out Deception and Spiritual Bondage. I know he speaks to what happened in Greeley in here - though his focus is on testimony of Christ's work in his life and not just re-hashing what happened here in Greeley. It may give some insight though. It is referenced on the Stoppel's site - but in case there are those on the forum here who avoid going there due to CGCM bias - here's Weldon's audio:

http://www.theholdemans.com/realaudio/KoehnTestimony.ram

In addition - there was a documentary done in Quebec in the late 70's. My father was part of that. I know that Kimma has copies of it if you would like to contact her for that.

Steve - didn't you have this located somewhere on the web as well, or am I thinking of something else???

 
 
meg
(no login)

What really happened in Greele, CO?

August 6 2007, 2:43 AM 

The documentary was done in Manitoba, I believe - Roy Bonasteel was the interviewer. It was called, "The New Way". One of those interviewed was Ken Wiggers from Greeley. (I have wondered if Jane Wiggers is his wife?) The "staff" shown in this film are ones who are presently and have been in the past, here in our area. Watching that film cleared up a lot of our questions and gave a very clear portrayal of how the purge affected and changed the church. Excellent film.

 
 


(Login gskoehn)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 6 2007, 3:22 AM 

Meg - thanks for clarifying - I thought it was Quebec. Hmmm - I think I'm mixing up a Quebec business trip with the Manitoba trip.

Ken is my father. And no - Jane is not his wife - but is an aunt by marriage (not to be confused with his sister Jane who was a Wiggers UNTIL she married!

I'm glad that documentary was helpful to you. I remember dad going to Canada - but that's about all I remember personally of that happening.

 
 
Gentile
(no login)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 6 2007, 1:17 PM 

LOL! Only a staff member of my 'earthly' business Sophia...a fellow pilgrim and stranger.

 
 


(Login gskoehn)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 10 2007, 10:39 PM 

Ya'll want more?

Okay - my dad being my dad (i.e. detail oriented and specific) - I have an almost two page reply from him - typed out - along with his answers to more questions I asked as I read through it. Unfortunately - he didn't save the document and just handed it to me - so I'll have to retype it in. I'll do that here - with some of my notes in parantheses on questions I asked for clarification as I read through this. But I have a lot more notes and will save those for another time to lay out in writing - maybe tomorrow?

"My daughter Sophia,

I'm going to respond to your question regarding the "Greeley Experience". I don't mind if you quote me on any of this, anywhere, I just don't wish to get involved in discussing it on the forum.

Orgies? I missed those, unless what is meant is group involvement in excitement regarding Jesus (my note...can you tell where part of my sense of humor comes from? )I've heard that rumor also, but it's been some time ago. Incidently, no one, whether friend, acquaintance, church official, or even family member, ever has asked me what my perspective on those events is. I think that is an amazing case of assuming that the "wrong" person has no valid input.

I have never been able to verify any sort of apology being made regarding our excommunication. If it happened, we were certainly not made aware of it. It seems to be true that there has been an adjustment on the Holdeman's part regarding 'justification by faith'. It is now taught, at least in the Messenger of Truth, that we are all justified before God by faith in Jesus Christ alone. The critical issue has shifted from 'faith and workds' kind of thinking, at least among many, to 'the church decides if you have a "valid" faith'. I'm not sure which has the most baggage.

(my note. Dad has gotten the MOT 'forever'. His parents paid for it to come to him. He never made a big deal of it. In some cases, it is communication of things they would not otherwise be aware of - including relatives deaths, marriages, etc. I have wondered but always forget to ask dad - whether he still gets the MOT since Grandma died last November. Not sure if it was a subscription for life - or if it is inheritable. Hmmmmm)

The BIG issue in our excommunication was the question of, "what is the church?" That is the issue that sealed our doom, and the issue that I'm sure they never apologized for, and likely never will. It is the issue that their church system stands or falls on, and they know that very well.

I was one of four persons who comprised an advisory board for Gerald (Mininger) in our congregation primarily because he was the only minister here (my note. Dad told me tonight that Gerald never intended to be the only Min. He and Kenneth Koehn (wife Betty) had both received permission - or whatever it is called - to start the church in Greeley. Geralds moved here first - and Kenneths were going to follow soon after they had their affairs in order in California. Kenneth and Betty were both killed in a car accident, tragically. That is how Gerald came to be a sole minister here. Gerald asked for the advisory board because of this. My father (Ken Wiggers), Orlan Koehn (came from Missouri), Bill Smith (from California - eventually ordained to Deacon) and...oh shoot - I forgot who the fourth was....sorry!! made up this advisory board). What brought things to a head that revival time was the fact that the church problems committee notified us that they would be choosing the two brethren who would be coming to lead the 'revival effort' that year. Since we had always been able to call whoever we wished over the years, and since that is the way it is expected to be in the Holdeman church, their taking over the process was, to say the least, attention getting. Leading up to the start of the series of meetings Gerald shared his concerns regarding this with the advisory board.

What was especially telling was that year after year, after our 'revival meetings' the ministers who had been here with us would go back home and be interviewed by other ministers. You know, "How did you find things at Greeley?" And, always they would say, in effect, "we were prepared to see major problems that would require major changes in things, but, you know we really sensed a joy and excitement regarding the Lord. Don't know what the deal is." Obviously the big guns would have to be 'moved to the front'. Hand picking our revival ministers seemed to be the first step.

Before the fourth meeting, Gerald called the advisory board together at the church and told us that he had become aware of their strategy, and as I remember it, Gerald was to be no longer in charge of the revival effort, the visiting ministers would be. (my note: I asked dad more about this as this seemed rather, uh, interesting. He said that the ministers were overheard talking over their plan. The person who heard them took this information to Gerald - who then went to the revival ministers and asked them outright about it. From dad's understanding - they acknowledged that this was their plan) With great reluctance Gerald informed us that he just could not let this happen in our congregation, that he was well aware of the consequences for him, and asked us if we were with him or not. We unanimously agreed with him and spent time in prayer for him and the congregation. We then joined the congregation assembling for the evening meeting, and when the 'visiting ministers' had arrived, and the service was to begin, Gerald got up and announced that, in consultation with the board, it had been decided that this series of meetings was over. It was done humbly, even brokenly, and with respect for the 'visiting brethren'. We were all aware that 'the excrement was about to engage the blades'. It did.

(my note. I have a lot more notes from tonight regarding how exactly this all went down - and will write more of that up another time. If you have questions - please ask. I had also asked my dad about the 'smoking flax' comment that Gentile had made...and about the Bible studies question that was posed. Here is his response on those...)

The 'smoking flax' account was often, and perhaps still is, preached about at revival times when I was growing up. Since the church was seen as having replaced Israel as the people of God, and since the Holdemans are the church, it was seen as applying. The message was, "God has taken note of the fact that the fire has gone out with at least some of you, evidenced by your lukewarm condition, and perhaps even the congregation as a whole has a 'condition', but God has said that since you're still smoking there's a chance that you can be fanned into flame once more." I think smoking flax doesn't apply very well when there is rank heresy involved, so, no they didn't teach on that one with us.

(my note: In my trying to understand this more, mom mad a comment to one of my questions with 'our hose didn't get blacker during revivals'. Obviously I looked confused - and she said 'during revivals it was expected that rather than nude or suntan hosiery color, that they would get darker and become even black to reflect condition. Yes. I was stunned. Then dad commented that it was even said at one point 'it would certainly help your position if the women were to wear darker hose'. Yes. I laughed. Pretty sure that was unimportant to Jesus. )

Finally, the Bible Studies that we first used in our home groups was from Campus Crusade, and came about as a result of getting acquainted with a young lady from Greeley who was joining the staff of Campus Crusade and moving to their headquarters which was at Arrowhead Springs, CA at that time. It was very basic stuff, but the kind of material that would allow young and old to meet together and learn. We also did more praying together during those study times than any of us had done with others in all of our lives.

If you have any further questions, ask.

Love, Dad"

So - Gentile - there you have the story from one who was not only there - but was right in the thick of it. I pray that this congregation you referenced indeed HAS the "Greeley spirit". It may well be the most enlightening experience in their Christian lives.

I just want to add here - though as I said I'll post more on this later - that I am extremely blessed to have grown up in this congregation. Over the years - people moved - people were called to worship at other churches in the area (as my parents and my husband and I were eventually as well) - but I very well remember growing up knowing that Jesus loved me - and that he died for me. I became a Christian at the age of 8. While that occurred at a Billy Graham crusade (and yes - I have no doubt that would have been a problem for the church problems committee as well to know that much of the congregation not only WENT to that crusade - but participated in the choir as well!!) - it was in this Greeley spirit that I came to know my Lord and Savior. And it was the intercession of my father and Gerald with an action I knew nothing of for 30 years that prevented my becoming a member right before that revival session which would have made me a VERY young excommunicated member. Or not supposed to eat with my parents. Or something. I look at my daughter who just turned 10 yesterday - and became a Christian herself at 7 - and I am overwhelmed once again for that loving act of my father and Gerald in protecting my young psyche.

So fire away with the questions - I'll ask dad if I don't know the answers. Gotta say - I'm very very tempted to go seeking out the other members at that time and get more testimonies from them of what occurred. The memories talking with dad brought up for me tonight of bible studies in our home - of singing - and praying - and bibles open on every lap - precious, precious memories. Praise the Lord for these wonderful Christians!

 
 
Hank
(no login)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 10 2007, 11:55 PM 

Thanks Sophia; I know you nudged me a few times but I have been busy with other things and I felt that someone like your dad could really answer the questions. You/he did a fine job.

We have very fond memories of quite a few vists to Greeley; we desperately motored up there in winter of 1975-76, for 24 hours of non-stop question asking, trying to find out what was going on in the Holdeman church at large. The changes were puzzeling and up-setting to say the least, and I had confidence that Gerald Minninger would be able to help me keep my mind in balance. I will be forever grateful for the clear, steady and loving (without any malice) words that he ministered. And Sophia, along with that, we appreciated clear testimony of the gospel and love of Christ that your parents and others you referred to, left with us.

I believe we realize that we are "Christians" individually, however fellowship within a "culture of peoples" does give certain inspiration that one may not be quick to accept elsewhere, coming from a pretty much closed church society. It takes time to obsorb that God is no respecter of persons or culture and so the shared disappointments/inspiration with those we trusted was vital for us. Thanks to your dad and others for standing for truth and not being ashamed or afraid to do so.

Perhaps one reason why this forum interests some, is for the very reason I have referred to above. It is very normal that cultures, families or regional residents stick together, and share common feelings of their roots. There is nothing wrong with such fellowship, if we do not lose sight of the bigger picture.

"... Titus, a true son in OUR COMMON FAITH. Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior." Titus 1:4

 
 
meg
(no login)

What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 11 2007, 5:48 AM 

Hank said:
>>I believe we realize that we are "Christians" individually, however fellowship within a "culture of peoples" does give certain inspiration that one may not be quick to accept elsewhere, coming from a pretty much closed church society. It takes time to absorb that God is no respecter of persons or culture and so the shared disappointments/inspiration with those we trusted was vital for us...
Perhaps one reason why this forum interests some, is for the very reason I have referred to above. It is very normal that cultures, families or regional residents stick together, and share common feelings of their roots. There is nothing wrong with such fellowship, if we do not lose sight of the bigger picture.<<

Speaking as a convert to the Holdeman church, and one who later defected, I am quick to understand what Hank has suggested here. Since we knew no Holdemans before meeting the small group who had recently moved to our previously non-Mennonite area, having no references nor methods to check them out (nor at that point no obvious cause to do so), and being somewhat rebels from the broader mainstream culture, we were quite drawn by the stable, defined church society. We experienced a strong sense of identity and security within that system, so unlike the freedom of the mainstream. Because a set of circumstances led us up to the H. church (isolating factors such as our homeschooling), it seemed a natural solution to our dilemma. We had in some ways ostracized ourselves from our own society or culture. At first it was a great comfort to discover the benefits of such a close-knit system.
However, leaving it is more traumatic than arriving, because there is nothing to "go to", unless one takes up with another church. And unless it is another "closed society", a heavily rule-based one, chances of replacing that intense sense of security are slim. I ended up joining another Mennonite church - this one defined most specifically by it's German language and Spanish cultural influences - and although it has, surprisingly, been a much easier place to meld into as it lacks the demands "to blend", at the same time, it is more difficult to feel as strong a sense of "community" as we experienced with the Holdemans.
When we left the church we felt quite adrift, and the trauma suffered by that separation was a severe blow to all of our family. In part the problem was made greater because we didn't understand the dynamics of our experience. And that is where Holdeman Survivors became a life line. I had always been puzzled, after we left and started voicing our opinions, when a Holdeman would say something like, "Oh you must have been talking to someone who left the church." We did not know anyone else who had either come or gone, nor did we know anyway to contact anyone who had! Then, through Holdeman Survivors and individual contacts I met through that group, we found ourselves armed with access to all the factual information we needed for the healing process to begin.
At times I think that I have taken Anabaptism more seriously than many born-to defectors from the Holdemans. I have noticed a trend to abandon the whole Mennonite culture for the freedoms of the mainstream, and not always do those in such a position chose the better elements of the mainsteam either. Not for me to judge another (it took quite some time for the affects of that judgmental system to wear off, I admit), but I have wondered why more people don't chose to follow the Anabaptist faith in some other Anabaptist-related church - whether this is akin to throwing the baby out with the bathwater, or if I have missed something and have something more to learn? For the present I feel very blessed to have been accepted so warmly as part of this new group. It seems ironic to me that an outsider could feel more comfortable and welcome merging with a strong German-language culture who actually make the Holdemans look quite "worldly". Perhaps it is that my own family come from German stock originally that contributes to my ease in feeling at home there..whatever the reason is not as important as the sense of peace and comfort that it brings.
At the same time, I have continued to feel a sense of identity with you who have also left the Holdeman church. I am shunned equally with you and there remains a sense of kindred spirit between us all. I feel confident that healing has taken place, but the effects of the Holdemans in our life will always be felt. A trust broken is a trust lost forever. And there is nothing more painful than broken trust. I read an aritlce on forgiveness (I think it was somewhere on this site) that put it all in good perspective for me - forgive, but never forget. I encourge everyone here to seek healing and move on in life, taking the lessons as a blessing.

 
 


(Login Pianisimo)

What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 11 2007, 8:08 AM 

Sophia: Read your informative post with interest and has helped fill in some of the blanks and questions I have had about that sad affair. I have been interested over the years in that situation as I had made several trips to Greeley, shortly before everything fell apart. Norman Toews also offered me a job in his business as I was a friend of Burtan sp
his son. I was a very rebellious young man and far from the Lord at the time, although a member, but I was doing a lot of singing and I sang in Greeley church several times before the break up. Once at a wedding for good friends and also for a special evening. What I distinctly remember when I would visit is a feeling that troubled me and it seemed to me from what I was witnessing with the youth group was that they were living very carnally, (much like me) pretty much whatever, however. I remember one really wild party I went to while Burtan was still in the church and as far as I know most of the other kids were also. Loud music, dancing, Burtan had his guitar with him and between trips to his car to take a smoke, we'd make a little music. The difference what I could see, is that I was an exception where I came from, at Greeley I would've been more normal, if you catch the drift, just part of the crowd. I think the Lord had a hand in my life even tho I wouldn't have been aware of it at the time. I was given health issues that prevented me from moving to Greeley. That's how I feel today, but I'm sure others would probably feel different. And Sophia, don't get me wrong, I loved Gerald then and I still love and respect him, however it did appear that things were moving to a showdown with the rest of the H conference. I believe if things were to be relived today, there would've been much more patience in trying to understand and try to come to some agreement w/0 getting the big guns involved. And as far as the congregation went, I do believe as you stated they were excited about serving the Lord and were trying to do what they thought best. However I could see some cracks forming, and for me not being very spiritually astute, was a real eye opener. I have heard over the years a tremendous regret expressed by ministers and how that thing was handled. I just wonder how it would be done today?
I believe you to be an honest, fair person Sophia, and I'm not trying to deduct from what you said, just giving another perspective from someone who just observed. Maybe I even ran into Hank at Greeley? However, he was probably hanging onto the arm of his sweet young thing and didn't notice me!
Such is life, aye? This has about tapped my info. about this whole ordeal. Forreal


 
 
Hank
(no login)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 11 2007, 8:43 AM 

Thanks Forreal; you are right about my "sweet young thing" but I am older then you. I have no idea who you are but we may well have crossed paths.

I will be gone for several days but an interesting discussion would be what is the best and biblical atmpsphere to raise/bring up young folks, to prepare them for life. How much "force" should be applied ? How much trust should be allowed them ? What social skills do they need to leaarn and where can they get them. Does the Bible teach a closed church society as H represents ? or should there be more open mixing with others in a community ? or does this mixing happen already ?

 
 
Barb
(no login)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 11 2007, 9:33 AM 

Hank,
I'm not Forreal although I am "for real"

I believe it is as simple as this... whet their appetite for God and the rest will take care of itself.

And that is best taught by example.

 
 

(Login Laura45)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 11 2007, 12:13 PM 

>>>I believe if things were to be relived today, there would've been much more patience in trying to understand and try to come to some agreement w/0 getting the big guns involved.<<<

Forreal, could you translate this strange language for me? What are "big" guns? How do they differ from (presumably) "little" guns? What kind of "agreement" would be sought?

 
 

(Login Laura45)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 11 2007, 12:40 PM 

Sophia, a few years ago when I was still H, the buzz going around was that the guy who was the minister at greeley when they were expelled was trying to rejoin the H. Is this true? Just curious.

 
 


(Login gskoehn)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 11 2007, 1:24 PM 

Forreal - thanks for sharing your experience. Being a little kid then (oops - did I make you feel old? ) - I couldn't begin to comment on what the youth situation may have been. They were OLD! lol Hey - I even thought my now husband was OLD at that time - and he was only 13 at the time. For what it's worth - I'm all for guitar playing and singing and praising Jesus - though not sure if that's the kind of music you were referring to!! lol

In case you didn't stay in touch with Burton - he is a doctor now! Yup - Casper Wyoming - neat guy. His brother Russell was MY youth group leader years ago. Russell and his wife Cyndi are now missionaries on a Hopi reservation in Arizona. Norman's old house is actually just across the street and up three doors or so from where I live. Yup - small world. Have not seen Norman and Elsie in years - actually since they moved to Idaho and retired where Rosalie is. Thanks for bringing back memories of folks I haven't thought of in quite some time.

 
 


(Login gskoehn)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 11 2007, 1:30 PM 

Laura - Gerald is retired and living in Kansas now on his daughter's place - near Copeland. I know there is a great effort underway to get him back into the church which I find immensely sad as he has been made to feel guilty (NOT by anyone at Majestic View in Greeley - but by CGCM members) for what happened in Greeley. Greeley was not Gerald's 'fault'. It was Jesus' fault. I truly wish they would leave him alone - but unfortunately - they are fearing for his soul unnecessarily and are trying to 'save the old man'. I know that Wayne (his son) dealt straight up with some of this at Gerald and Connie's recent wedding anniversary - stating that he sees his father as a hero for standing up for what he believed. I believe the same. Gerald is a precious, precious man to me. I was HONORED to be able to call him 'Uncle Gerald' after I married into the Koehn family.

All that said - my only concern is that he not be made to feel guilty about Greeley and the cong there getting ex'd. I'm thankful he is with his daughter and son in law - and his other daughter and SIL are nearby as well. Gerald is mostly blind now which is very disconcerting as well as unless somebody tells him who they are - he cannot recognize. If Gerald were to re-join the church tomorrow - it would not change my opinion of him one iota. He is a fine Christian man whether he is a member of the CGCM or the old Mennonite church conference - and either way I will be happy to rejoice with him again in heaven one day.

 
 


(Login Pianisimo)

What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 11 2007, 1:36 PM 

Gene: From what Sophia was saying, (I hadn't heard that angle before) is that they were sent revival ministers that the cong. didn't vote on or even invite somewhat against Gerald's wishes. Seems to me that was getting big guns involved, as those ministers probably felt more responsible to the committees and their peers than about actually what could possibly happen with that approach. That in my mind was really overreaching Gerald and somewhat usurping his own authority. How would it be done differently now? I've never heard anyone give a definitive answer to that, Gene. I have thoughts about how it could've been resolved without losing an entire church, but everybody has thoughts in retrospect and we all make good arm chair quarter backs. My wife and I got to be fairly good friends with one of the ministers who was involved and I personally know that he made attempts to contact most of the ex members and just simply open up to them and share on a level basis. I think, (but I don't know this for positive) that he did intend to apologize personally. He has passed away now, so won't know just what he got accomplished. I do know that about 4 or five years ago Gerald sent a letter to the H ministers and deacons seeking some kind of reconciliation. I faintly remember people talking about it, don't know what he said but I was impressed with his overture. Hank: You ask a very good question about youth, why don't you start a thread on that very topic? I would like to hear!!!! Forreal

 
 


(Login gskoehn)

More from dad - via my notes

August 11 2007, 2:08 PM 

Okay - let me get my notes into more coherent thought here before I forget details from talking to dad last night. This part will be a bit disjointed as it was just my asking a question - jotting down notes - and then sometimes we would tangent off a bit. But it fills in some blanks.

I asked who the ministers were that came to Greeley. There were 7. It was the church problems committee at that time and the Chair was Milford Wenger. Tobe Koehn was part of the group - and there was a Toews - but neither mom or dad could remember a first name right off. They interviewed each family/couple of the church - four in one car - three in another - so two meetings going on at all times. Their questions were 'what is your understanding of justification by faith and what is your understanding of the church'. Dad said that after he stated his understanding - they turned to mom and asked her - and she stated that she agreed with dad. They then said 'I guess you're aware then that this is not how the church views these things and that this is a serious matter'. Mom and dad agreed that they were aware of that. Dad specified that the justification by faith issue was NOT the biggy. The biggie was the OTVC doctrine - the understanding of what the 'church' is in scripture. Their belief extending beyond the circle of CGCM was what sealed their doom. Wait. DOOM?? RELEASE!!! Yeah!

After they met with all of the couples - they asked Gerald if they could call a meeting - and if everybody would show up - they did. They shared what they had learned - no surprises for anybody I'm sure. They said that everybody had been very - don't remember the word dad used - but gracious and cooperative. They said that everyone had the same understanding on justification and the church. The 'wrong' one - but the same.

They then went back to council - and flew in 300 ministers to meet on this. This was not done in a vacuum folks!! This wasn't a few ministers who made a decision and then it was done and couldn't be undone. THREE HUNDRED ministers flew in to have a council meeting to deal with 60 members and what to do about Greeley. Ironic that nobody in Greeley was wondering what the action would be - or what the right thing to do would be. They knew full well what the 'consequences' were to their membership. Nevertheless - 300 men discussed it. It's not known whether all the ministers/deacons were involved or not. But mom did say that there were 'no or very few' from California - and her father did not attend. I asked if he would have attended if he'd been invited - she said no.

So coming back to Greeley - the cpc brought the letters. Dad still has theirs. They were hand delivered. Mom said she was home alone when the ministers came onto the yard. Four in the car - but only one came to the door. Mom said she was shaking she was so nervous. I found that very very sad. I would never feel nervousness in greeting staff from my church - or nervous about what was about to transpire.

There were four couples that were never expelled. Just a note - there was no repentance period. It was just a short period of a few weeks from the meetings in the homes to excommunication. Maynard Koehns (my uncle by marriage), Ken (Anita) Schmidts and Sam (LaVonda) Schmidts were never expelled. There was some confusion as to who had moved out of the area before this all occurred. There was a Smith family that moved right around this time - it was thought before this all occurred - and then another single man I believe. Somebody else may be able to fill in the holes there. These four couples were never involved in the bible studies either. Of course MY little suspicious mind wonders whether they contacted the cpc diretly - but who knows.

My dad said he felt sorry for Milford Wenger having to deal with this as Milford was good friends with his dad (Arnold Wiggers) and Milford hated having to do this to 'Arnold's son' - and dad hated that Milford had to be in the middle of it as well.

Interesting note on the church building. As is usual, the church building had been purchased with donations from other congregations and a pledge to purchase. However - it was not titled in the manner that churches usually are in Kansas!! It was solely in Colorado!! The ex'd congregation expected to lose the church building - but did offer to purchase the church building from the CGCM which was of course turned down. That confused me - but dad said that a member (or the church conference) could not do a 'favor' for excommunicated. That would be a no-no. So basically, it was owned by the congregation that was left with it. Providence? Or coincidence? Things that make you go hmmmm

After the ex'ing, the four couples that were not ex'd were meeting in homes. Several times there were evangelical attempts made with a building/meeting room rented and ministers were brought in to evangelize. The X's were invited. They didn't go and after a couple attempts at this - they gave up. The four couples eventually moved out of the area. I don't know where they all moved.

There were three other parties that were not immediately X'd. Inez Unruh - who is a very special woman to me. Just saying her name makes me smile. She's SUCH a cantankerous lady - but she's smart - and loving - and I love her even though she's a bleedin' heart liberal! lol She's retired in Phoenix now where my grandma lives - and we have stayed in her home quite often when she is here in Colorado for Christmas visiting her adopted daughter and grandchildren and we're in Phoenix for Christmas. Inez had an unusual life for even an H. She went to college while a member. She was an 'old maid'. She adopted a Navajo girl and raised her on her own. She was a social worker for the county that Greeley is in. And dad thinks that she was left alone (she had her meeting with the ministers - they just didn't deliver a letter to her immediately) because of a bit of, uh, male thinking that she might not know what she was doing - being a single woman and all. That cracks me up - and for any of you that know Inez - you understand why. I can't IMAGINE anybody convincing Inez to do something that she hadn't made up her mind she was going to do, first of all, nor can I imagine anybody thinking she might not know what she wanted. Hilarious. Anyway - she ended up being expelled for a different reason - not remembering what that was right off hand. Shoot. Thought my notes were good.

Keith and Michael Johnson were also not expelled immediately - but after they continued to worship with the X's at Majestic View - and didn't show up to be evangelized - they got their walking papers as well.

Another note that I found amusing in my twisted humor kind of way is that dad noted that most of the people that were drawn to move to the area had been in 1W service in Denver together. They had become friends there - for life - and had not wanted to move away from Colorado. Wayne Mininger (Gerald's son) was one of these. This had a lot to do with Gerald and Kenneth then deciding to work on starting up a congregation in Greeley. And many who had served 1W service in Denver ended up coming to Greeley - and staying. And here's my twisted humor - if it weren't for that durned little pacifist/C.O. issue - "Greeley" would never have happened!! I suddenly find myself thankful for the Anabaptist pacifism.

So that's the rest of my notes. thanks for sifting through it all!

 
 


(Login gskoehn)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 11 2007, 2:19 PM 

"Gene: From what Sophia was saying, (I hadn't heard that angle before) is that they were sent revival ministers that the cong. didn't vote on or even invite somewhat against Gerald's wishes. Seems to me that was getting big guns involved, as those ministers probably felt more responsible to the committees and their peers than about actually what could possibly happen with that approach. That in my mind was really overreaching Gerald and somewhat usurping his own authority. How would it be done differently now? I've never heard anyone give a definitive answer to that, Gene. I have thoughts about how it could've been resolved without losing an entire church, but everybody has thoughts in retrospect and we all make good arm chair quarter backs. My wife and I got to be fairly good friends with one of the ministers who was involved and I personally know that he made attempts to contact most of the ex members and just simply open up to them and share on a level basis. I think, (but I don't know this for positive) that he did intend to apologize personally. He has passed away now, so won't know just what he got accomplished. I do know that about 4 or five years ago Gerald sent a letter to the H ministers and deacons seeking some kind of reconciliation. I faintly remember people talking about it, don't know what he said but I was impressed with his overture. Hank: You ask a very good question about youth, why don't you start a thread on that very topic? I would like to hear!!!! Forreal"

Forreal - dad would definitely agree with you that Gerald's authority was being usurped - not just with having revival ministers 'assigned' - but also with their staged plan then to handle the entire revival not just bring the messages and then Gerald would handle his own congregation's revival experience. Definitely out of the ordinary. I'm not aware that Gerald had sent a letter. Given his physical condition - that frankly surprises me. But I do know that I have heard the same rumblings about Gerald being in communication with the CGCM - and - well - I already said what I said!

Would you mind telling me who the minister was that made attempts to contact and intended to apologize personally? I'd be happy to ask my dad - and FIL - if they ever got a chance to meet with him. I know my FIL well - he talks with EVERYBODY. lol He's regularly late for events if Jehovah's witness happen to come by because it's HIS turn to share his beliefs. Of course that's all very confusing as my FIL's beliefs don't fit the usual Christian/protestant belief system. New Age. As for dad meeting with somebody - probably depends on who it was - how long ago - and what the 'reason' for the meeting was. If it was somebody he knew he would probably do so. If it was somebody making what appeared to be an attempt to bring him back into the fold - he likely would have declined rather than sit through that process. As I've mentioned in other threads - dad is not a patient man (thanks dad!! You passed THAT gene along!!) - and could be quite argumentative in past years. So he would probably have avoided a 'pointless' conversation with somebody he did not know. Since I'm guessing Hank heard from my FIL that an apology was given...and dad was unaware of any apology...I'm speculating that this minister DID meet with my FIL - but not with my dad. Anyway - we could probably clear up that small mystery if you're willing to say which minister that was - I'm happy to ask the question on this end.

And just gotta end with...ARMCHAIR QUARTERBACK???? ForREAL!! You haven't been watching gasp TV have you??? :D

 
 
Nas
(no login)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 11 2007, 2:26 PM 

Sophia, thanks for all of you infro, I never heard what went on at Greely, thanks. Now, I wanted to ask you about Inez. Isn't that Abe J. Unruh's daughter? If it is, I'm trying to remember the girls name she adopted, is it something like Shotzie? Now I know, I really butchered that spelling, but I'm not certain I'm even on the right track here, or if this Inez is the same women from Monte that I remember.

 
 


(Login gskoehn)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 11 2007, 3:09 PM 

Nas - yup! Same Inez! Her daughter was called Shotzie - yes. Mary is her actual name. Shotzie is actually just a term of endearment - German for sweetheart - had to ask mom! I don't know what her Navajo name was.

So did you know Inez? Or know her now? She's a delight. She recently published another book - smart too!

 
 
Forreal
(no login)

What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 11 2007, 3:19 PM 

Sophia: If I recall correctly, it was Cecil Unruh who mentioned that he was working with contacting people from Greeley. It seemed like he said something to the affect that there were several of them that would be visiting, not just him. This was probably 15+ years ago and I'm very foggy as to the details. I faintly remember him stating later how things were going with that endeavor. I recall very little how things actually turned out or his own experience. In reference to what I said about Gerald M. and the letter he wrote. If I recall correctly the letter was more of an acknowledgement of willing to take his share of blame and I feel he was just wanting to put the whole thing to rest. If you thought I meant that he was trying to find a way to come back to the church, I don't think that was the case as far as I know.

 
 


(Login gskoehn)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 11 2007, 5:44 PM 

"Sophia: If I recall correctly, it was Cecil Unruh who mentioned that he was working with contacting people from Greeley. It seemed like he said something to the affect that there were several of them that would be visiting, not just him. This was probably 15+ years ago and I'm very foggy as to the details. I faintly remember him stating later how things were going with that endeavor. I recall very little how things actually turned out or his own experience. In reference to what I said about Gerald M. and the letter he wrote. If I recall correctly the letter was more of an acknowledgement of willing to take his share of blame and I feel he was just wanting to put the whole thing to rest. If you thought I meant that he was trying to find a way to come back to the church, I don't think that was the case as far as I know."

I'll ask Dad and Bill about Cecil.

Re: Gerald and the letter - you made me smile. Yes - I did think you were saying he was trying to find a way to come back to the church. The term 'reconciliation' is one that even in my 'only H for a few childhood years' ears sounds like a 'back to the fold' type thing. Often heard the 'although she had xxxxx in her lifetime, she had reconciled with God and church and died in peace' or such. So yeah - that threw me!! lol And I didn't want to pull a 'did it really happen that way' on you with Gerald writing a letter to get back in because I certainly couldn't picture that - but hey - I'd have to ask him - and I WOULD have the next time I saw him!! Glad we have that cleared up so I don't confuse him totally with that coming out of left-field.

So yes - I can imagine him writing a letter to clear the air between himself and the other ministers. I can imagine that while the entire process sounds like it was handled with quite a bit of grace after that revival fiasco since everybody knew that excommunication was inevitable - that there were still things likely said in the high emotion of those times that were regretted later - on both 'sides' - and it is good to hear that steps for reconciliation of relationships are being taken.

I do also know that Gerald has had visitors now that he is back in the hotbed of CGCM (Kansas) that are certainly pressuring for him to return. I understand that. Truly. I understood 'why' my grandparents asked that of my father for so many years as well. If one believes that a loved one is going to burn in hell - why would they NOT do that? I reiterate that my only concern for Gerald be that he not be led to feel as though Greeley wouldn't have 'happened' if it weren't for him.

To do a bit of armchair quarterbacking myself - I firmly believe that even had things been handled differently - even if the smoking flax had been 'fanned' - even if only half the congregation were put on repentance and so there were greater numbers encouraging the lost to come back - I still believe that those who were excommunicated would have eventually 'x'ed' themselves. If the church had not taken action when they did - and brought it to a head with the revival meetings - I have no doubt it would have come to a head within a year or two anyway - with the same end results. Because the true issue was that the members who were X'd no longer believed that CGCM was the OTVC. Yes - they were X'd for that. It happens!

I also understand the concerns that CGCM has for its members being on a forum such as this - and that they actually like it better when it's contentious rather than Christian sharing and discussing scripture and praying for one another. Because it is exactly that 'fraternizing' with others who professed a faith in Jesus Christ that led the congregation here in Greeley to recognize that in fact Jesus' gift of salvation extended far beyond the circles of the CGCM to ALL who would believe on Him. That's why there was such harsh action. How could they let this spread? Seriously - there's no way that this could have been handled differently as long as 95% of the congregation no longer believed that CGCM was the one true church. To do so would have been to sully the bride of Christ, in CGCM terms and views. As dad said yesterday to me - excommunication isn't done in order to bring somebody back that has any faith in the church left in them - it is done to remove from the 'body' those who have already removed themselves through action or belief. This congregation did just that. There was no weeping or wailing or accusations of wrongful expelling. No - it was seen as inevitable - and while the CONSEQUENCES of that are hated (the avoidance/shunning) because of the grief that brings in loss of relationship with family members and long-time friends - it was a welcome release to no longer be tied to that which they did not believe. There was also not the ability to create financial burden through this as there was nobody left here to cut off these excommunicated members from doing business, etc. Life simply went on!

That's why when the purge idea came out of (Haiti?? I think it was?) that it was picked up with relish. It was applied in AWFUL ways - particularly in Canada - and to people who were not in anywhere near the same mindset as the congregation here. Instead of a group of people knowingly walking into the situation - there it was people who wanted desperately to stay in the good graces of the church and were truly torn apart over this. I know that Hank has shared his story - and that he would never have wished that experience on himself or his dear wife.

If not for the purge and the tightening of the controls to prevent any more slippage of OTVC doctrine - it's a possibility that some of these online forums such as this would never have come to pass because the Greeley congregation simply moved on and I doubt any of them would spend much time on this issue 30 years later. It's ironic that by clamping down controls - the very thing feared and attempting to stop through that control - is coming to pass. X and H entering into friendly relationships - talking scripture - sharing experiences of faith - and praying together. God moves in mysterious ways.

 
 

(Login erv123)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 11 2007, 6:45 PM 

Sophia, Wasn't there an Eldon and Judy Koehn that also lived there and moved away? I understand that Judy wanted to stay in the church so they moved away? Nas and Forreal know who they are. They live in Paaris, TX now. calledoutPTL

 
 
Forreal
(no login)

What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 11 2007, 6:58 PM 

Sophia: You have interesting thoughts. I'm trying not to speak Holdie speak here as I know lots can be read between the lines. I guess I never really understood so clearly as I do now how my somewhat common metaphor, (which I've tried very hard to break) can be translated in ways that I never intended, because other people have used it so often and I guess the meaning has become distilled through time. As you may well know, Scott has really worked me over on the use of some of these sound bytes and I'm trying to learn to be very concise and speak very clearly so that nobody misunderstands.
Interesting as well your comment about the forum and greater threat to H if there was civilized discourse versus contentious. You're maybe right with that, but who's to say who will change? If you change and I change we still wouldn't see the same, as you would've changed to my side, and I would've changed to yours I would just argue from a different perspective, aye? (No I'm not Canadian, that aye just slipped in there) Well anyway, things have kinda calmed down today on the forum, everybody must be taking naps! I have (to me at least) an interesting topic that I may broach in the near future. See if I can figure out what make of car you drive by the personality shown in your posting. Do this on a number of posters and see if we can put together personality profiles and match it to transportation choices. I have a number of posters matched to their ride already, hmmm well maybe!! You're somewhat of a puzzle! What do you think of that idea?

 
 


(Login gskoehn)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 11 2007, 7:06 PM 

Forreal - talked to dad. He doesn't recall a minister EVER contacting him and asking to speak with him since they received their letter - almost 30 years?? So I guess he got left out?? That - or I told dad 'Maybe Grandpa was assigned to talk to you and you just didn't recognize that it was something other than a talk with your dad?' He laughed and said maybe that was the case. In any case - if there is a list being kept out there of Majestic View members who have been met with and apologized to for how things were handled - there is no checkmark next to dad's name - and he said he would absolutely have talked with them. Anybody have that list??? lol

Ervin - Yes - while I was on the phone with dad your post came through and Eldon (Aldon?) and Judy Koehn were the fourth couple that mom and dad couldn't remember for sure last night. So the Smith family had moved before this took place - and Eldon and Judy Koehn were the fourth couple. They're in Paris, huh? That's my Uncle's congregation - Min. Roger Unruh's (dad's sister Jane's husband...not to be confused with the Jane who posts here who is a cousin of dad's but not a sister!! lol)

I of course know Maynard and Brooks as they're relatives through marriage - and they've visited here before - Brooks is a dear. I remember the Smiths because they had a whole passel of adopted/foster children who were rather a wild bunch. In fact my mother's wallet was stolen out of the church nursery one Sunday and could never be found - but a few years later when the Smith's barn was being cleaned out for the move - there was mom's driver's license...mystery solved!! lol

I do not recall the other couples. Though I believe my in-laws were good friends with Sam Schmidts - I seem to recall them mentioning that name. But then... in our culture...there are a lot of Sam Schmidts, Jane Koehns, etc. etc!!

 
 


(Login gskoehn)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 11 2007, 7:12 PM 

Forreal - hey - don't worry about the Holdie speak. I'm used to it! Most of the time I enjoy it - it's the language of my family - of my aunts, uncles, grandparents - and I don't mind that. But yes - I do try to clarify what is being said and whether it is the language of a small community that I interact with - or the language I would hear at work or church or such.

And by all means, I'd love to hear what you think I drive for a vehicle!! lol But do me a favor - don't go asking my uncles or aunts - that wouldn't be fair!! And does this mean that I don't get to guess 'gray van' for all H's on the forum? hmmmm - that could make it tougher!! We know Scott has a motorcyle...we know Fred's Suburban is a two-tone...why yes - I think this could be fun! Perhaps to make it REALLY interesting - we add in what that person would drive if they could drive whatever they WANTED to drive. I.e. for us worldly folk - what if $$ were not an issue - or kids - or such. And for the non-worldly's - what if there were no rules on flashy or white wall tires (is that still enforced?) or bright colors and such!!

ROFL on the changing sides bit. Yes - that wouldn't accomplish much if I assumed the doke (sp) and you shaved off that facial hair, now would it!?!? thanks for the laugh.

And WHEW - yes - the forum is SO much calmer today. 'Twas beginning to stress me, so I'm glad of that. Wonder if we offended wtk by asking Jerry if he was wtk or WHAT?

 
 
Nas
(no login)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 11 2007, 7:23 PM 

Yes CO, I know who your talking about, I don't recall anything of Judy's church status though.
Sophia, I remember Shotzie from one evening when we were visiting Henry B Koehn place, and Inez was there with Shotzie AND Roy Jim. Roy Jim was a Navajo Indian that was a great artist. He was drawing pictures on their blackboard and the rest of us little Holdie kids just stood in awe at him. He had long black wavy hair swept back in the old duck tail/Elvis Presley style.Roy Jim taught me to draw a picture that night that I still draw occasionally to this day for my nieces or nephews, every time I draw it, I think of that night and Roy Jim.
Inez, it was said that night, was going to attempt to adopt Shotzie and make room also for Roy, but the Roy Jim thing did not pan out, and I don't know the story on it, maybe someone else can take it from here. But, the adoption did obviously, go through for Shotzie.
Inez is indeed a brillant woman. Was unaware she was THAT liberal, but no surprize on that either. Abe J Unruh, Inez's father himself, was a brillant man. I , in my youth, had never encountered such a brillant brain as Abe J, I used to listen to he and others in discussion of world events. One very memeorable discussion was at the Case Tractor shop, owned by Mr.Calledout's dad. Of course, what was Abe doing in the Case shop when his son owned the John Deere shop? Well I dunno! I suppose he may have been out for a walk, it had rained and of course the farmers goofed in town when it rained!
Sorry, I'm not trying to derail here, but I found your mention of Inez and Shotzie to be a trip down memeroy lane.

 
 


(Login gskoehn)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 11 2007, 8:14 PM 

Nas - no problemo - not a derailment - that was neat memories! I never heard of Roy Jim or that there was a second child she had wanted to adopt. I always marveled at her ability to handle the worst of the worst as a social worker and still care. That has to be one of the most thankless jobs.

lol on the Case vs. John Deere. My uncle Perry Koehn is a JD man. When Nicholas - my cousin - was two years old, my brother and I (we had to be in our late teens/early twenties I think?) - were going visiting in Copeland and I had been teasing Uncle Per for years about Fords vs. JD (not that I really cared! Per and I have just always teased a lot) - so I took a little blue Ford tractor with us and my brother and I spent about two hours playing with Nicholas in the other room - all innocent - right? Well - when Nicholas came out of that room with his little blue tractor - and then announced to his dad as we had been couching him for the full two hours "Daddy - Ford tractors are FASTER! WATCH!" and then zoomed that little tractor across the kitchen floor, we about lost it at the look on Per's face. WELL worth it!!

And now that I'm off on my own derailment - our inspiration for that prank came from Darrell Mininger's sons vs. Gerald Mininger's sons' arguments about Ford vs. JD. I don't remember who was for which. Darrell is Gerald's bro. Anyway - while one of the sons was on vacation - the other family took ALL of their kid's toy tractors - from the little ones up to the 'ride-on's' and painted them all blue - applied Ford stickers and 'converted them'. That was where I got the idea to get Uncle Perry - because the kids came home to their brand new brightly painted blue tractors and immediately proclaimed that they all ran better now!! ROFL.

SUCH easy targets!!

 
 
Mark
(Login freeNdeed)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 11 2007, 8:16 PM 

Sophia,

I don't want to derail but I thought you might find it interesting that our oldest son is named after a good friend of ours who lives in Greeley. They are members of the Apostolic church. (sp)

 
 


(Login gskoehn)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 11 2007, 8:25 PM 

Mark- well THAT was clear as mud!! lol

So - how old is your son's namesake? I have no clue how old you - or your chil'ens are - but perhaps I know him...

Then again...there are 100k people here!

So how did you come to know a Greeley-ite?

 
 
savedbyfaith
(no login)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 11 2007, 8:29 PM 

Forreal, you are definitely not Canadian since we spell it "eh"!

 
 


(Login gskoehn)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 11 2007, 8:34 PM 

"Forreal, you are definitely not Canadian since we spell it "eh"! "

Oh great - does this mean the spelling gestapo are back in town?

 
 

(Login freeNdeed)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 11 2007, 8:54 PM 

His name is Verne Lehman and I would guess he's pushing 70. He moved there because of his job then ended up staying.

 
 


(Login gskoehn)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 11 2007, 9:01 PM 

Nope - don't know him! But you know what? I bet I could guess your oldest son's name!!


hey - wait a minute. He doesn't happen to have several sons - all with 'V' names, does he? I went to school with Vince and Vance Lehman...their older brother was Vaughn and I think there was another, but don't remember for sure. All local sports 'heros'...

age would be about right I think. Verne would be old enough to be my dad...so...hmmm??

 
 


(Login gskoehn)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 11 2007, 9:02 PM 

never mind. after i hit post I realized their name was Lechman. So all of that info to you was pure...nothing!! lol

 
 
Forreal
(no login)

What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 11 2007, 9:04 PM 

Sophia: Wanted to correct a serious typo you made several posts back. Roger and Jane, that is Roger Unruh right, instead of Koehn? Am I correct. If so you are as bad with last names as my wife!!
That's bad, bad, bad, bad! Gestapo name brigade, here we come!! And of course incidentally if I am wrong with that name, I'll be eating pie in the face for most of the night, however I do like pie, just let me pick the flavor.

 
 


(Login gskoehn)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 11 2007, 9:26 PM 

Yes, yes, yes. Goodness gracious. Unruh. I'll go correct it so as not to cause further confusion!! lol Thanks for catching that!

uhhhh - you're not Roger, are you?

if family is reading - sorry peeps!!!

oh - and no - I'm not usually bad with names! It's just that my relatives include a Jane (Koehn) Geisbrecht - a Jane (Wiggers) Unruh and a Jane (?) Wiggers! Yes - very confusing. No Jane Doe's though...

It's at least less confusing than when a Kone marries a Kane and then the move to where their name is now Kone and everybody thinks he must have taken her name!! lol

 
 

(no login)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 12 2007, 7:07 AM 

InterRESTing! That last one you have listed there is Jane Giesbrecht Wiggers!

 
 

(Login Laura45)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 12 2007, 7:45 AM 

...the youth group was that they were living very carnally, (much like me) pretty much whatever, however. I remember one really wild party I went to while Burtan was still in the church and as far as I know most of the other kids were also. Loud music, dancing, Burtan had his guitar with him and between trips to his car to take a smoke, we'd make a little music. The difference what I could see, is that I was an exception where I came from, at Greeley I would've been more normal, if you catch the drift, just part of the crowd."..." And as far as the congregation went, I do believe as you stated they were excited about serving the Lord and were trying to do what they thought best."


Very Interesting, Forreal! I've wondered about this for awhile, and your post seems to confirm my thoughts. You were rebellious, apparently towards "the Form" so for you this was living "carnally", however, by your own report the Greeley cong was excited about serving the Lord and apparently this caused them to lose interest in "the Form". I've noticed this same phenomena, that as people become more and more in love with Jesus, the have less and less interest in following the outward 'traditions'.



 
 
grace
(no login)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 12 2007, 8:23 AM 

Interesting point Laura,
Is that what the Bible talks about when it says we cannot serve God AND men?

 
 

(Login Tirone)
coGchat

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 12 2007, 8:47 AM 

Laura, I had also thought Forreal's post was interesting but didn't know exactly how to speak my thoughts, but you said it well. I couldn't see anything wrong with the list of things he came up with. Now he didn't expound on them very well, like what kind of music and dancing, whether Burton was addicted to smoking, etc. so I may not approve of some of it if I knew the details, but David, a man after God's heart danced and many other examples of dancing are given in the Bible. The only question I would have is the smoking part. I still can't understand how a Christian can destroy his/her body like that, BUT, I wouldn't say a person is condemned for 'trying it out' which he may have been doing and I understand that as far as conference decisions are concerned, a person shouldn't smoke excessively (or is it for medicinal perposes). The biggest problem I have with smoking, drinking, etc. is the addiction part. I feel it is wrong to be controlled by anything (especially an object) outside of oneself.

So, Forreal, what are more of your thoughts on this matter?

**And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.**

 
 
Hank
(no login)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 12 2007, 9:14 AM 

"Thanks for the memories" and the history lesson, Sophia. Just spent the last 45 minutes reading this, and my heart is beating, lump in my throat and the good ol' days seem like yesterday. I am excited and praise the Lord for Him allowing me a little part in that historical time for CGCM. But really, the thing that matters is that we "trust" in Jesus , live for Him and let His light and love shine through our lives (I do not do this perfectly).

Someone wrote; "If you don't know where you came from you don't know where you are going". Whenever we think of/realize our past with the nature of Adam, I believe we can be more thankful for the vicarious gift of Christ, who is infused into all by the Holy Spirit who "trust" in Him.

A comment. Someone above made mention of reconciliation. About a year ago I posted a suggestion for reconcilliation. Might it be possible ?

I am sitting in Front Strret Cafe, in Friday Harbor, WA, (getting free internet with my coffee) and looking out over the most beautiful/quaint little harbor in the world. Wish you all were here with me and we would have a praise service here right on the street ??

 
 


(Login gskoehn)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 12 2007, 11:36 AM 

Jane - SEE why I get confused?? lol Four last names in all sorts of combinations - it's enough to make the head spin!

Laura - thank you for wording that so well. Mom shared with me some more about the youth - and a youth retreat that was held - I think this was shortly after the exit. Kevin Mininger - who was a definite partier (and I think Forreals views that this was partying - not rebellious behavior - is the right one - it sounds like it was a pretty wild group!!) - and had brought along a bottle of vodka to the youth retreat just in case he was too bored - was born again at that convention - stunning even Burton. It was the beginning of a turn of that particular group of youth for the Lord - and while, like many of us, some have struggled over the years - many of them are serving Jesus today. Kevin went from 'where to go drink the vodka' to sitting and plunking out the notes to an old hymn on a piano over and over all weekend long - just lost in Jesus' love. Mom says when she hears that hymn to this day - she remembers witnessing Kevin's conversion.

I'm glad God reaches the partiers...else I would not be here.

Tirone - so very true. I have to once again remind that along with the addictive smoking and drinking (for some) - that one of the most insidious addictions loose in this country right now - and one of the most costly in terms of medical care - is the addiction to food. As one who suffers from this particular addiction - I can tell you that I do not wish to have this addiction at ALL. I've never met a smoker who was happy to be addicted - or a drunk who was happy to need the alcohol either. I also do not believe that these are any more or less of sins than other sins. Excess of ANYTHING can replace God in our lives. I will likely struggle with my addiction to food for the rest of my days. It's just how it is. But I am working, with God's help, to bring that under control and to not let it rule my days.

Hank - ahhh - I wanna be there!! I have a friend in Friday Harbor with a one month old son - I would absolutely LOVE to be where you're at and to be able to visit her! A Victoria Clipper tour of the islands up there is on my list for 'soon'. Preferably when Butchart Gardens are in full bloom. ENJOY your day! I'm glad that you enjoyed the trip down memory lane - and please bump that post on reconciliation if you can find it!

 
 
April
(no login)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 12 2007, 11:54 AM 

Sophia,
You said my exact words. I think anything that is bad for our bodies we shouldn't partake of. However, it intrigues me that Christians so often condemn smoking and they themselves are lugging around 40-50 extra lbs. I have an aunt who was a smoker for 30 years (quit cold-turkey after a prayer to God asking Him to help her). She was a mortician for years and often said how interesting it was when her overweight family would give her a hard time about smoking because she saw firsthand the effects of both smoking and overeating on the human body. In America today obesity and obesity related illness have surpassed complications from smoking.
Should we smoke? Probably not- however, to condemn smoking you should probably condemn any overeating in the same breath.

 
 
arm
(no login)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 12 2007, 12:01 PM 

Friday Harbour - Sweet memories. Hank, can you still find the best clam chowder in the world there?

Food Addiction - Such a big problem in our family, though 3 out of 5 family members are as skinny as rails, and the other 2 not fat at all. But it leads to such contention. In the past 5 days I've made an apricot platz, a peach and blueberry platz, 2 transparent apple pies, 1 blueberry pie and its all been eaten along with the regular farmer-hearty meals and healthy snacks of fresh fruit, homemade muffins, and salsa and other relishes. And is the family happy? Not at all. They're all fighting about who got the most, who got the last piece, who got the biggest piece, who deserves the most, who doesn't deserve any, and they are telling me I should be making more, more often. If that's not a family in crisis I don't know what is.

 
 


(Login gskoehn)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 12 2007, 12:19 PM 

Arm- excellent point. I learned well how to binge growing up. I remember competing with dad - almost subconsciously - just showing that I was a 'big girl' because I could eat as much as dad. Uh - yeah. And when I was active in sports - it kinda worked. But just like a bulemic binges - then purges (causing sometimes irreparable damage in doing so) - I know many who still binge - and then starve. It's still the same mad cycle. Personally - I got the binge part of the cycle down pat - but never learned the other side!! :0 Not sure what's worse. Wouldn't want any of it. But this way I at least only have to solve one bad behavior - and learn to eat in moderation - and get my butt MOVING.

Sooooo - this thread has now gone from 'What really happened in Greeley, CO?' to

'What's really happening in Greeley, CO - right NOW!' lol!!

and yes -I'm easily amused! But I plan to still be jolly and slim too!

 
 
arm
(no login)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 12 2007, 12:55 PM 

Sophia - Luckily in our family work and exercise are the other addictions. Once you get your butt moving to a certain point exercise fanaticism kicks in too. And then when you don't exercise, you may be thin, but you won't be jolly. The biggest crouches I know I those that haven't had their morning or evening run after eating their pie.

Back on track - I remember Creeley too. They made an impact throughout the entire Holdeman Nation. I was a teenager only hanging by a thread to the H social network, but I remember hearing that Creeley was a wonderful place. No wonder - all that dance, music, smoking and booze though I didn't hear that part, and the smoking and booze wouldn't have attracted me. If I remember correctly, it was feared that the Abbotsford congregation would become another Creeley. And according to a lady I just had the pleasure of meeting, the possibility was there. She is a christian, but nonH lady that made close friendships with a number of H families. She told me how their H friends would only visit them after 9 in the evening and make up business reasons for visiting, so that H authorities would not find out. She and her husband witnessed to these H and she knew more horror stories from the 70s than I did as a H. So there was an 'underground' nonH support group that only some were aware of.

 
 

Forreal
(Login Pianisimo)

What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 12 2007, 1:22 PM 

Someone was asking me to clarify what I wrote about my experiences with the youth. Let me say this one little thing, I probably put the kindest spin I could've to that experience.
It was very Ungodly, and remember I was quite a jaded sinner by that time. I wasn't trying to put a righteousness to it, or accept it, or reprove. Just my belief. I had already spent two years away from home, working in an environment that was very unchristian and I had seen and witnessed a fair amount of evil. I wasn't a Lilly white Holdeman anymore. To put a little credit on Burton, he and I were in one corner for part of the evening, he with his guitar and my vocals and we were working on the song, "A Farmer Can Not Be Successful without the rain, and it can't rain without an overcast sky" Drawing a blank on the rest, but it was a christian song, but we were trying to compete with a mega loud stereo system belting out The Eagles, The Who, The Beatles and I can't tell you what all. I think I've said all I care to about this topic, because I've done some awful foolish things too in my time and I just don't know enough about that situation to say that was something that happened regularly, or were they doing it to impress me? Don't know, I possibly just have enough knowledge about this topic to be dangerous, you know how that line goes!! Oh before I sign off, I just thought of something humorous that I watched Burton play on a number of unsuspecting people. The time that I was involved with a singing evening at Greeley, Burton recorded this all in stereo with a recorder in the basement. Later he invited people to his house and would give the listener head phones, then proceed to turn up the volumn, waaaaaaaay up to make people believe they were actually hearing the music over the head phones. When people would get relaxed and start really getting into the music, he would kick a switch and all that volumn would be relayed just to the headphones! Iyeahhhhhh
aaaaahhhhhhhhhh, rip, stumble around! No wonder he decided to become a physician, to help repair some of damaged mankind!!!
Forreal

 
 
Stan
(no login)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 12 2007, 5:02 PM 

I spent a summer in Greeeley when I was maybe 19 or 20, back in 73 or 74, can’t remember which. I worked for Bill Smith, a farmer, and also a Koehn who had a landscape business. Kevin Meninger and I shared an apartment together.

I remember the youth much the way Sophia described it. If there was any wild behavior going on, I was not privey to it. The youth were quite spiritual but not much concerned with form. I never witnessed drinking or smoking, and about as “wild” as things ever got was when Cecil somebody would pull out his 12 string at some gathering populated by the more “liberal” people and regal us with Gordan Lightfoot and other great music for the evening. From those experiences came my inspiration to learn to play also. I don't remember if Cecil was a member, but secular music and instruments were not totaly out of bounds among the youth.

I spent quite a few hours in Gerald Mininger’s home, and thought both him and his wife to be great people. I sensed the congregation was different, less concerned with form and much more spiritual. I look back fondly to those days and I am sure they made an impact on me.

 
 
Forreal
(no login)

What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 12 2007, 6:13 PM 

Stan: Thanks for sharing your memories. You would have much more to remember than I did. I like to hear both sides. Forreal

 
 


(Login gskoehn)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 12 2007, 8:11 PM 

Forreal - you brought some more memories back for me as well!! I remember being at an apartment or such that Burton had - I have NO idea of the year. I was there with my parents - but I remember a very large stereo system - and all I knew of such was tape recorders and a small record player setup (actually - that tells me it was probably 77 or 78...I would have been 9 or 10...does a lady tell her age?? lol). I'm thinking this must have been somewhere that Burton was in school - I don't think it was here in town but that we were on a trip of some sort. Interesting flashbacks!!

I know you're not wanting to dwell on the whole 'what WAS the youth like in Greeley' question - but I'll put it this way. There was a lot of change going on as the congregation moved from H to non - and that was a process that began long before the Xng obviously. I do not doubt that there were some youth who may have seriously been acting out in ‘new found freedom’. Again – this is why I posted something a few days ago about ‘why’ people leave their church – ANY church – because they are led by God – or because they just want out or want some new freedom. Our parents being led by God to leave the CGCM does not mean that all of the youth were. They were sorta along for the ride. If they had a faith in Jesus – that would be one thing – but if they had not accepted the gift of salvation – then it would be no different than tossing an unsaved 18 year old out of the CGCM (or putting them on repentance) out into the big wide world without guidance. Not a great experiment.

One thing that is very sad about Greeley - that impacted me personally - was that much like a divorce (and for years I referred to the excommunication as 'The Great Divorce' – even though my parents hated that I did so…perhaps BECAUSE they hated that I do so??) the children suffer the most from change. Even if that change is for absolutely needed reasons - the innocent parties in it are the children – the youth. I am not saying that divorce is good here. I think it is always a last resort - but in some situations I believe it is the right option. That said - the children can very easily be thought to be 'not affected' by the changes taking place because they're young - and children bounce back easily from things - and blah blah blah. Well - that's not the case. For the children around my age and older - we were okay. Most of us. There are a few I can think of off hand that are not Christians today - but it is a very few.

However - it impacted the younger children greatly. Parents were hurting - shunning hurts! And many of us witnessed our parents being yelled at by brothers or parents (yes - I witnessed this - laying shaking in bed with my cousin as our fathers railed at each other in the other room). While a 10 year old may be able to recognize that their security is still there - that their parents are their safety - this truly bends and hurts the psyche of younger children...and some very sensitive children that were older. The damage done to many children was great. And I don't lay all that blame on the CGCM at all. Sure - they X'd the congregation - but the congregation KNEW they were going to be X'd. Heading out into society out of the close confines of the H culture should not be done without counseling and a lot of prayer - IMO. And while our parents were doing just that - there was an assumption I think that because they were okay - their kids would be too. But we were playing in the other rooms while they talked through this all and counseled each other and prayed together - and yet we too were affected by the shunning - by relatives once regularly in our lives no longer doing so - or arguing every time they got together. There WAS fallout. I don't want to romanticize the situation. Leaving a OTVC belief church is a BIG deal. In fact - I think I'll start another thread on this - because I am sure there are others who can speak to the impact to their children - or they themselves as children - even though the children were never members - and therefore never X'd.

Do I think this is a reason not to leave? No. But I DO believe it is something that requires the entire family unit to enter into prayer - for the child to be involved in that - and if there IS dissension in the family or between relatives - to know that they are okay - it's not their fault - their security is safe (a young child's BASIC need) - their parents will not leave them - and that Jesus still loves them. Critical. The same counseling sought for children of broken homes should be sought for children whose families break away from a OTVC church. I believe much pain and suffering can be avoided with that single act.

Okay - moving back off the soapbox and on to happier things...

 
 


(Login gskoehn)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 12 2007, 8:31 PM 

Stan - to put some more details to your memories - and bring you up to speed with some people you may not have stayed in contact with...

Bill Smith is one of the LoveLites that my mother and FIL sing with. It's the 6 person group - Duane Unruh (from Kansas - Copeland area'sh) - Margaret Wiggers ( me mum) - Bill Koehn (my FIL) - Bill Smith (from California) - and Orlan and Grace Koehn. Orlan was from Missouri, Grace was from California. This was the Kone marrying a Kane and then moving to Colorado where they both became Kones again.

Bill has retired from farming now - though he still has some property that he rents out, etc. Two of his children are missionaries - his daughter Vicki is in Costa Rica - his son Brian is in Russia. Brian is his oldest son - would have been - let's see - about 10 when you were there...just a little twerp!

Koehn who landscaped. hmmm. Chet Koehns two sons Jack and Perry have done yard care and sprinkler system installation/repair for years...they still 'blow out' our system every year. Is that perhaps who it was? GREAT singers and guitar players. They're all still in the area. Might also have been Reed Koehn? I don't know if he was ever in the yard biz. He works at the hospital now - not sure in what capacity. The other brother was quite a bit younger - one of those little twerps. My hubby's age...Ross. Vivian Koehn passed away just a few years ago quite suddenly - all the rest of that family is still in the area.

Kevin - lives outside of Grand Junction now on the Western Slope. Married a gal from Colby, Colorado and they now live back there again. They lived in Kansas for a time as well. He's a grandpa now!

Cecil...Unruh I think? A bit older? I don't think he was ever a member - I may be wrong. He isn't now I'm pretty certain.

Gerald and Connie...I've talked a lot more about Gerald - but it is for certain that he was supported by a wonderful lady in Connie. I kinda like Regehrs though! You likely saw my DH at some point if you were at Gerald's a lot - he would have been running around with his brother and Max - Kevin's little brother - all little twerps in the 73/74 era.

 
 
Stan
(no login)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 12 2007, 9:14 PM 

Sophie, that was Cecil Unruh who played guitar. I remember all the lovelights, and worked with Duane Unruh at that landscaping business, along with Cecil and a young fellow named Reed, probably the Reed you speak of. Also an interesting guy named John (last name started with an H maybe?) who had a younger brother named Russ and whose parents had died tragically. I think they later owned a hardware store together. I’m not even sure if the owner of the landscape business was named Keohn, to be truthful. He was kind of a big guy who never wore a beard even though a member. I haven’t heard what or where Kevin ended up, so thanks for the fill in. I remember Kevin having a younger brother, but hardly remember him, much less who he played with.

 
 


(Login gskoehn)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 12 2007, 9:23 PM 


Sophie, that was Cecil Unruh who played guitar. I remember all the lovelights, and worked with Duane Unruh at that landscaping business, along with Cecil and a young fellow named Reed, probably the Reed you speak of. Also an interesting guy named John (last name started with an H maybe?) who had a younger brother named Russ and whose parents had died tragically. I think they later owned a hardware store together. I’m not even sure if the owner of the landscape business was named Keohn, to be truthful. He was kind of a big guy who never wore a beard even though a member. I haven’t heard what or where Kevin ended up, so thanks for the fill in. I remember Kevin having a younger brother, but hardly remember him, much less who he played with.

Duane now has a backhoe biz. Have to laugh. That dude is hilarious. He was a bachelor until...late 50's? And is now married - and it has changed his life quite a bit - but some things he's still Duuuuuane. His forward gear has gone out on his backhoe - so he is now spotted around the city on a regular basis - driving backwards!! lol Makes us all giggle every time.

John and Russ Heppner. Yup! And yes - absolutely awful scenario with their parents. Their sister Ardith (older - she was married already when that occurred) took them in. She's Wayne Mininger's wife. And yes - John and Russ are both very successful businessmen with a great Ace Hardware store in a small town near here - they're also both pilots and enjoy flying small planes.

Aha on the Koehn...I'm thinking it had to be Curt Koehn? Curt and Fern? They were not involved with Majestic View for very long after the Xing - and I have no idea whether they're still in town or not - though I think not.

lol - that's why I called them little twerps - I figured if you were 19 you could have cared less who the 10 year olds running around were - as long as they weren't in your way!! Well that - and they weren't very nice to the younger girls all the time! I was scared to death of DH's big brother for YEARS!! So the REALLY little kids though they were twerps too!!

 
 
Forreal
(no login)

What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 12 2007, 9:32 PM 

Stan and Sophia: Cecil Koehn, guitar player. Knew him well at one time. And Duane, ah yes Duane! Yes Duane is a certified clown.

 
 


(Login gskoehn)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 12 2007, 9:37 PM 

Unruhs...Koehns...what's the diff - eh? lol You'd THINK I could keep 'em straight!! lol

Duane's 'HOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWdeee' never fails to make kids smile. Or scare 'em good! lol He plays a 'cowboy Santa' for a historical 1800's settler village/museum here sometimes. Let's his beard get good and long - cowboy hat - overalls - it's fun. Don't know if the new wifie has let that happen or not???

 
 
Stan
(no login)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 13 2007, 7:19 AM 

Duane, Married? You have got to be kidding! Yes, he is a character, always a big smile and never seems to have a bad minute.

Curt and Fern Koehn, yes those were the people.

Once when a friend and I visited Greeley in later years, the Heppner brothers took us up in a small plane. I remember swooping down over a herd of antelope on the prarie.

Thanks for bringing out the memories.


 
 
Gentile
(no login)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 13 2007, 11:15 PM 

Thanks for all your experiences and viewpoints! Cause I'd heard that Pincher Creek, Alberta had been labeled as a Greeley. Surely, there are more folks that have relatives and friends from this Greeley 'era' that could share their stories and heartaches of broken trust and chances to forgive?

 
 
Observer
(no login)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 13 2007, 11:22 PM 

Did I hear that the minister in Pincher Creek Alberta is expelled now? Was he taking the congregation out of the H church like Greeley, or what?

 
 


(Login gskoehn)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 13 2007, 11:31 PM 

Observer - Gerald didn't take the congregation out of the H church - Jesus did. So a minister trying to move his congregation out of the H church would not be 'like Greeley'. This was not a man's action - it was God's.

Can you truly believe that a man could turn an entire congregation against what they were raised in - and what would cause them KNOWN pain?

I don't think that's what you meant with your words - just stressing again that this wasn't a 'minister gone wrong'. If Gerald had stayed in the church...the congregation would still have been exed. Big diff I think!

Would be interested in hearing more about Pincher Creek though...and the 'whys' behind it. If it's a group tired of rules - well - yeah - I've shared my views on that. I pray that the Holy Spirit is thriving in the hearts there and that God will guide whatever the right direction for that congregation.

 
 
Hope
(no login)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 13 2007, 11:47 PM 

I think he was going to "cast out" the 'Greeley' or Korah folks.

 
 


(Login gskoehn)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 13 2007, 11:58 PM 

Hope...HUH?

Not following your thought enough to agree, disagree or even shrug!! Can you try that again?

 
 
Hope
(no login)

casting out

August 14 2007, 12:06 AM 

Sorry! I was responding to Observer's post. Read Revelations 2:1-5, and Third John 9 and 10.

 
 
Observer
(no login)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 14 2007, 12:11 AM 

Hold on a minute. My Yearbook has 2 minister in Pincher Creek Alberta, Ray Nikkel and Gene Esau. I think it was the elder (Ray?) of the two that is under the gun. So, is Ray being too openminded and encouraging too much freedom of the Spirit? Is that why he is in churchwork? But now Hope says that he is wanting to "castout" the "Greeley" type people. Now I understand that when a minister needs to be dealt with there is other ministers called in. If that is true then why is he the one in trouble?

 
 


(Login gskoehn)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 14 2007, 12:45 AM 

I'm still confused - even after reading those passages - sigh - if only I was a fundamentalist and had all this down right!!

But hey - if it wasn't me you were speaking to - then I get to stay happily confused - right???

carry on...

 
 


(Login gskoehn)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 19 2007, 2:24 AM 

Forreal - talked to my FIL tonight and he said he had four 'exposures' (and yes - we laughed!) to the ministers involved in the revival.

1. The two ministers (Benny Hieber(t?) from Canada being one of them who came for revival meetings (were sent). They actually stayed at FIL's house.

2. Ministers came and invited members to come talk to them. Nobody did (though I asked about the four couples that weren't expelled and he said they may have met...he wasn't aware that anybody went down to the motel to meet with them). But he received an invite. This is in chronological order.

3. Ministers gave up on the 'come visit us at the motel' method and met with each of the members in their homes.

4. Norman Toews handing him a letter and not having time to come in and visit/talk. Yup - that was 'the' letter.

He said he was never contacted by any ministers after that to meet - to talk - to apologize for how things went down - none of the above. So not sure who your friend did contact - but I'm down 2 out of 20 some couples and haven't found anybody. Dare I continue the search?? Bill did say that he believed that Gerald had been contacted and apologized to - particularly for the taking over move that was done with the revival ministers that were sent rather than congregation's choice.

Further conversation on the topic...there was a time quite awhile before the ex'ing that the Greeley cong. had begun to sit as families in church rather than separated by gender. I always thought this was my memory that must have been mixed up!! But in fact - Gerald was at a Livingston, CA Minister's Council and this was brought as a concern. Gerald came back and told the congregation that they needed to go back to men on one side/women on the other side seating. The congregation did so, feeling that though they had enjoyed sitting as families - it wasn't worth rocking the boat over such a thing. Interesting how my memory that we sat as a family (dad always had us sit on the right side right up front - and he sat right on the aisle - because of his eyesight from losing one eye when I was very young) - and then I had to sit with my mom only again for awhile - and then it was families again. I always figured I just had things out of order in my young memory because it didn't 'add up'. Guess I had a good memory even as a youngster!!

Bill also said it was TEN YEARS before one friend - ONE - said 'hey - let's talk about what happened' and actually asked his perspective on it. He was very struck by that - even tonight I could tell that the pain of that was very real. He said he used to know a person in just about every congregation across the countries - and had friends across the country - that not one 'friend' came forward after he was expelled and said 'hey Bill - tell me what happened - tell me what your perspective was'. He said 'The church isn't all who expelled me. Every single person in the CGCM expelled me.'

That gave me chills. My father in law has gone through a real metamorphasus (sp?) of his faith in the last 10 years - and I wouldn't call it all good by any means. I don't doubt that his being expelled and avoided had a part to play in that. Not the expelling. The expellation (word??) he wanted/desired/expected - and is not bitter about that at all - he wanted 'out'. More - the part that has played a part in him seeking out answers from non-Christians came about because of the loneliness and loss of the social culture that he thrived in. They still travel extensively (living in the same town and seeing him on a weekend is unusual!! ) In fact, MIL was in Oklahoma for my niece's dedication tomorrow morning. Quite often, their travels are into H communities because he STILL wants that social contact even after his friends dropped him like a hot potato. I wonder how different his path might have been if he had been expelled as a member - but not avoided and shunned by family and friends.

I suppose hell is hell - and I suppose from inside the CGCM circle - that being outside of the circle of the CGCM's OTC is outside the circle whether one is Mennonite, Presbyterian, Catholic, Muslim or Atheist. But I couldn't help wondering tonight how different it would have been if, in fact, his beliefs in 1976 meant that he was no longer a member of CGCM - but could still fellowship and socialize with his friends - how much different his faith might be today. I still maintain that the crux of the problem is the OTVC belief. CGCM saying 'we do it better our way' is not an issue with me. I've been told that by Catholics, Baptists, Mennonites, you name it. I'll admit to believing it of my OWN denomination over certain other doctrines. They're not right for us or our children. But I also can fellowship with them - and take communion with most all of them (ALL of them can take communion in my church - it is only their churches that might keep me from participating) - we can call each other Christian - and sister/brother in Christ - without them believing I'm going to hell - nor my believing they are going to hell. Anymore than I believe the H here are going to hell. OTVC is the pin holding it all together - you pull that one and EVERYTHING changes...for the better!! For no longer is there a requirement for the 'body and bride of Christ to be kept pure'. For there is then recognition that the body and bride of Christ is ALL of us as believers together and that there is not one thing pure about us - any of us - or any group of us at any time - save by His grace. The spiritual growth and maturity that comes from that one move alone is - well it's astronomical. I know that so many have tried to share that here - to express what it is like to have those otvc blinders taken off - but it is quite literally the difference of looking into a muddy puddle or gazing into the crystal clear waters of the Caribbean sea. Night and Day.

But again I run around this bush that I have traveled around so many times, looking high and low to see if the brambles look different this time and might there be a way to reach through or into this bush - and recognize that as entrenched as the CGCM is into the OTVC (the church is entrenched - I'm not at all convinced that every member is entrenched at all...hence conversations here in many cases) - that the death of OTVC doctrine within the CGCM - tearing out that diseased heart - would indeed spell death to the CGCM. I hate coming to that conclusion. I pray and hope that God proves me wrong. That in fact there is a diseased heart - but that the OTVC virus can be removed from this part of the body of Christ without the death of the social structure (which I greatly admire even though it would not be my choice). That is my prayer. And I thank those of you who are here to work that healing - to bridge the gaps - it gives hope.

May you all have a blessed Sunday in Christ.

 
 
Hank
(no login)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 19 2007, 2:59 AM 

Sophia, I feel with you although I do not follow all of your rambling here... (smiley inserted). You touched a cord in my heart because I consider your FIL one of my best friends, even though we have separated in our spiritual outlook. I believe the H folks hold some responsibility for where he is today. However, no one can blame others for where they are at in their understanding. All are responsible for their own lives including your FIL... and myself. All will face God some day and each will answer for themselves.

Thanks Sophia, for your kindness and understanding of human and spiritual relationships. ( BTW, we look forward to spending the next weekend with Bill & Viola, if all plans work out.)

 
 
Kimma
(no login)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 19 2007, 7:15 AM 

"Duane now has a backhoe biz. Have to laugh. That dude is hilarious." LOL I think I have a tape of him reciting "The Jewish Vedding" and I think Phone Call from God!

 
 


(Login gskoehn)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

August 19 2007, 3:09 PM 

Hank - fully agree with you on the 'each individual is responsible'. I've never liked that excuse of 'I was abused, therefore I abuse' bit that is so prevelant in our society today. I refuse to use that excuse. But - I do recognize that what happens to us plays a part in later choices we make - and I think it's right for all of us to remember that not so much when we're looking at what impacted US - as much as when we look at how we impact others.

RAMBLE??? ME???? Made me laugh!!

I hope that Johns get up there this next weekend as well. I know Marjorie is on bedside vigil and in a very tough spot right now. But whoever might get there - have fun!!

Kimma - yes - that's the Duane all right!

 
 

Fred
(Login bawar)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

July 22 2013, 11:09 AM 

bump

Luke 8:39* Return to thine own house, and shew how great things God hath done unto thee.

 
 

Forreal
(Login Pianisimo)

What really happened in Greeley, CO?

July 22 2013, 1:23 PM 

No more comment from me about Greeley, CO other then about people I know. Duane Unruh, Ah, knew him very well at one time. I worked for his father with Duane in land leveling in KS for a year or so. Cecil and a 12 string. I wonder if you people are talking about Cecil Koehn, used to be from KS. Just met him again the other day. He is my age and we used to know each other just a little.
He was out for Andy Koehn's funeral as Andy was his first cousin. Some of this discussion brought back a lot of memories. Also just recently talked to Ervy Unruh's daughters Gail and Barbara. I think both of them lived for awhile at Greeley, or at least Barb. did.

 
 
Naz
(Login Naz20)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

July 22 2013, 4:21 PM 

Ah yes,,, Gail ,, wow, that was(and still is!) one good looking hot chick ! Ummmm Momma, Come to me Gail!!!

 
 


(Login Aaronsboy)
Moderators

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

July 22 2013, 6:22 PM 

How time flies ! This thread is from 6 years ago and it seems like yesterday. Thanks Fred, for bumping it.

"Jesus Christ is the same, yesterday today and forever." Hebrews 13:8

 
 
oncewasblind
(Login oncewasblind)

WOW

July 5 2014, 11:14 PM 

Just finished reading this whole thread. What a bunch of memories it stirs. Thanks to all. Sophia, you are so right. We could never go back. Gerald was a wonderful and loving mentor and catalyst, but absolutely not the cause of what was happening simultaneously in so many families. You were one of those too young for me to notice then, but your father contributed greatly to my love of music (and I still have a couple of those illicitly recorded performances at the church) -- and your FIL lives in the house we occupied for a few months.

 
 
Naz
(Login Naz20)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

July 6 2014, 5:19 PM 

"He was out for Andy Koehn's funeral as Andy was his first cousin"


Forreal, is this the Andy Koehn from Copeland ?

 
 

Forreal
(Login Pianisimo)

What really happened in Greeley, CO?

July 7 2014, 1:39 PM 

Naz: I think you probably knew an Andy Koehn who was a son of Jonas and Sophie from Copeland. (He is still alive) The Andy I am talking about was the son of Pete Koehn, son of Henry B. Koehn the man with the bushy eyebrows! Pete married a lady from Michigan, Joyce Snyder and adopted her infant son Andy, born out of wedlock. I bet you remember Pete as he was probably about your age.

 
 
Naz
(Login Naz20)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

July 8 2014, 8:31 AM 

Thanks Forreal, Yes, I know who your talking about now. Pete was my brothers age, Dave is my age,

Betty Rose lives in our area and I see her and Clayton often.

 
 
Naz
(Login Naz20)

Re: What really happened in Greeley, CO?

July 8 2014, 9:13 AM 

Forreal, I forgot to ask you, what happened to Andy, Pete's son? I remember seeing them a few times

when they came to Monte church, visiting.

 
 

Sophia
(Login gskoehn)

oncewasblind

July 29 2014, 9:49 AM 

Oncewasblind...I am not on this forum very often but just saw your response from earlier this month. I am not married to Glenn anymore - so I don't have a FIL anymore - but from your comment I believe I've figured out who you are! happy.gif Not sure if you're here anonymously - so I won't use your name here just in case. Good to see you on the forum.

I actually live now on the same street (across the street) from where you lived until you moved out of state years ago. Small world! I'm in touch with your youngest son on facebook and so have kept somewhat up to speed.

 
 
Bert
(Login oncewasblind)

Re: oncewasblind

August 8 2014, 8:59 PM 

I'm actually buzzing down to Greeley tomorrow to have lunch with Dad -- he's visiting for a couple days -- he and I were talking that it would be great to touch base with you. We've both been perusing this forum, and have some ideas/questions I'd love to bounce around. If you don't mind, could you email your contact info. I'm at btoewsmd@gmail.com. (so I guess I'm not anonymous -- too old to worry about that). Thanks

 
 
Ken Penner
(Login TexasEngineer54)

Hi Sophia!

September 2 2014, 8:10 PM 

Sophia - I saw this forum for the first time tonight and pretty much read thru it end to end. I don't know if you remember me. I attended bible study classes in your in-laws home for several years, your husband Glenn will know who I am. Your in-laws will know me very well although I haven't seen them for at least 30 years.

I can still remember getting the phone call at our house and the preacher (his name was Wenger) telling my folks over the phone that we were all expelled. They didn't have time for a letter because my Grandma Unruh (moms mother) had just died in Halstead Kansas and they wanted to make sure mom was expelled before she got to the funeral. It was a bad time for her, she got there the next day and everybody at that church knew she had been expelled so they held avoidance on her at the funeral. My, how news traveled among the church folks!

I had to laugh when reading some of the posts. Kevin was my running buddy and we did a lot of things for sure but we were just teenagers having a good time, no witchcraft, homosexuality, orgies, drunkenness etc. He stopped by this morning in my home town of Fairfield, Texas and we had a cup of coffee, he was on his way to Houston in his semi truck.

Reed Koehn is my brother-in-law, Marge is my younger sister. I was the oldest member in the youth group that existed in the MV church at the time of the expulsions. All of our older brothers and sisters had moved on and were not around so none of them were expelled. Getting expelled was one of the best things that ever happened to me although it took me several years to get past my upbringing and start enjoying a 'normal' life.

We had received information from several current church members that the current feeling in the Holdeman conference is they did Greeley wrong and have made noises about maybe undoing the expulsions! I hope not! anyway, it was good to read your postings.

Your father was our youth group leader and I have many fond memories about him and your mother. In my minds eye, he will always be 30 years old because that was the last time I saw him. I can imagine he would probably feel the same about me, even though I will be 60 in a few months. The last time I saw you, you were still a little girl, not even a teenager! My how time has flown! I hope life has been kind to you, God bless!




 
 
Current Topic - What really happened in Greeley, CO?  Respond to this message   
  << Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Forum  
Create your own forum at Network54
 Copyright © 1999-2014 Network54. All rights reserved.   Terms of Use   Privacy Statement  
Caution: This forum may contain statements and comments that are offensive. If you are easily offended, please exit this forum now. By using this forum you agree to be accountable and liable for your post's. All postings are the responsibility of the posting participant. The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the management.

Click here to see Fair use notice What the CGCM believes, (Stoppels site)

_________________________