Genesis 1 1-5 first speaks of God in the beginning creating the heaven and the earth, and bringing light upon the earth.

Verses 6-8 then speak of God creating a firmament, and an upper and lower water system, with the firmament placed between these waters, which firmament also was called heaven. This Scripture reads, "And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."

Note how their was a upper layer of water, with the area between this and the lowers waters being called the firmament and heaven. Some feel before the flood there was a layer of moisture or water somehow supported above the earth making the whole earth sort of like a green house. I think these believe that during the flood this upper layer of water came down adding to the flood, and causing a totally different climate than before the flood.

Verse 9 then concerning the waters under the firmament reads, "And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so."

Now verse 14-18 then speaking of God creating the sun and the moon and the stars says they were placed in the firmament of the heaven, thus they would have been lower than the upper layer of waters. Thus according to such it appears the sun and the moon and the stars of heaven should have had a layer of water surrounding them from our earth! This Scripture reads, "And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. "

I first noticed this while trying to read the creation story in Greek. Then in checking the English I found it said the same thing. Regarding this issue, I don't think many people today, religious or non religious, believe God in the beginning created an upper layer of water from our earth which surrounded the sun and the moon and the stars. Yet this is what this account quite clearly says. I don't have the answer, but I know regarding other Scriptures it appears the copyists or translators sometimes gave a quite wrong meaning of the text, and possibly because that was the popular view in their day, and that is how they understood it. I know of a certainty that the great God who put it all together, would not have been ignorant of what He created and given a wrong account of what He created.

Any thoughts?

In general I would say the water "above" was the vapor before the flood causing the greenhouse effect you mentioned. Probably no one knows for sure, so just add that to the things you want to ask the Creator when you get to heaven!

Amos to go along with your questions, Notice in Gen 1:27 god created male and female and told them to multiply the earth and have dominion over the earth and then in 2:8 God placed man in the garden of Eden. Another question is the firmament solid or a vast amount of space? Another question is where was this plant and herbs before they were on the field as in 2:5 says And every plant of the field BEFORE it was in the earth, and every herb of the filed before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. Then verse 7 God created man. I think is is a no answer type question that a person just wonders about sometime. Like Galen said some day we will know. calledoutPTL

CO: The answer to your question is that the second account of creation starts at Genesis 2:4 and continues to the end of the chapter. Genesis 1:1 - 2:3 is the first account. They are two different accounts from two different traditions. Look at the name for the deity. In the first account, it is God. In the second account it suddenly switches to Lord God. As I understand it, one is translated from the Hebrew Elohim and the other is Yahweh. (Can't remember which is which at the moment). So, it's thought by (some?) biblical scholars that both accounts made it into the Hebrew scriptures because there were two main groupings in very early (prehistoric?) Judaism.

Thanks for your replies. Yet I am still impressed with the below.

The creation story simply says that God placed the sun and the moon and the stars within the FIRMAMENT and which FIRMAMENT appears was quite close to the earth since it is said to have divided the waters ABOVE the earth from the waters on the earth. All this sort of gives the thought that the sun and moon and stars were quite close to the earth, and that they rotated around the world as was understood in old times.

Those verse read,"And God said, Let there be a FIRMAMENT in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the FIRMAMENT, and divided the waters which were UNDER the FIRMAMENT from the waters which were ABOVE the FIRMAMENT. 8 And God called the FIRMAMENT Heaven"

"And God said, Let there be lights in the FIRMAMENT of the heaven to divide the day from the night; 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them IN THE FIRMAMENT OF HEAVEN to give light upon the earth"

If a skeptic asked us about this how should it be answered? My answer is that possibly the copyists or translators wrote it as the honestly understood, or God wrote this in a general way and in the way that it appeared to man so man could understand it, even though it was not technically just like that. This by no means, means the creator did not know what He was doing, or that He cannot do great things in our day.

I always thought the firmament was the 'sky' or in other words, the air and space above the earth, so we walk in the firmament with our feet on the ground. I understand that in some languages (and I imagine Hebrew to be exceptional in this area) that there are terms used (or not used but implied in this case) so maybe there is more of a translation error. Maybe the original meant something like 'divided the waters which were UNDER the FIRMAMENT from the waters which were ABOVE [IN] the FIRMAMENT [or in the sky].' I'm not a scholar in Hebrew so I have no idea if this is the case, but before we can call it an error, we need to obliterate ALL possibilities.

**And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.**

almost makes one miss Jerry now doesn't it!

Steven, I think you correctly described the two creation accounts. There are two accounts of many early Bible stories, including the flood. I have a book called “Who Wrote the Bible”

http://www.amazon.com/Wrote-Bible-Richard-Elliott-Friedman/dp/0060630353

which spells out what is commonly called the “Documentary Hypothesis” concerning the separate multiple accounts in the first 4 books of the Bible. The hypothesis makes a very good argument that an editor, or redactor, somewhere in the era of King Josiah, for political purposes, weaved two to four separate accounts into one. The original accounts are thought to be from the Southern and Northern kingdoms, plus the priestly tribe.

It is thought that these separate geographical cultures at one time shared a common set of stories, and once separated; each set of stories became influenced by their surrounding cultures and beliefs and evolved differently. When it became politically expedient to reunite, the different versions were weaved together much in the way we see them today.

This also explains why you sometimes see a God of vengeance and sometimes a God of Love, depending on the source of the story.

I like this book because you don’t really need anything other than a Bible to understand the author’s claims, although he does draw on ancient secular writings and archeology to further support the theories.

If someone wants to investigate this book and does not want to purchase, I would be glad to share it.

Stan, you changing your mind about some things??? smile calledoutPTL

Jerry can you give us a hint regarding the Hebrew? Maybe the Hebrew word underlying "in" the phrase "in the Firmament", can also mean above and thus the phrase could say, "above the Firmament". When one starts digging more possiblilities sometimes are found than thought of up front.

<<Stan, you changing your mind about some things??? smile calledoutPTL>>

CO, not sure what you are asking here. I have accepted the “Documentary Hypothesis” regarding the authorship of the Bible for some time now, and have written about it before on this site. I think it provides an excellent and logical explanation of how the present form of the early Scriptures came into being. And it shows quite convincingly they were not handed down from God to Moses. They instead are an edited and weaved together version of several similar beliefs in the region. Below are some references if anyone is interested.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_tora1.htm
http://imp.lss.wisc.edu/~rltroxel/Intro/hypoth.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documentary_hypothesis

Stan, Unless I had a brain infarction, I thought you wasn't sure about the existence of God and the salvation message. smile Was I wrong in thinking this?? If so, I apologize.

Also wondering how you feel about the Apocrypha?? calledoutPTL

According to Paul there are at least three "Heavens".

In Creation, water was below and above the firmament that was called "Heaven".  The first "Heaven" included the sun, moon and stars, then when the waters that were above the firmament(First Heaven) were cast down during the flood, that could have been what "created" the "Second Heaven(called the galaxies and such by "the knowledge falsely so-called" seekers)", and the "Third Heaven" was above where the waters had been prior to the flood, and which Paul declared to be "Paradise", that place where Our Father and HIS Family dwell.  "Today you shall be with Me in Paradise". The Life is of The Spirit, and oh yes, The Spirit that was in The Messiah resided in Paradise even as 'd'evil sought to hold His body and soul captive in his hellacious domain. Tha was impossible for the body and soul of The Messiah were without sin and incorruptible.

Hope is there would be those who "experience The Power that raised The Messiah from among the dead"!

Peace, in spite of the dis-eases(lies) that are of this wicked world and it's systems of relgion, for "the WHOLE world is under the control of the evil one" indeed and Truth.

Truth is never ending.......

I see this is an old thread - so I'm going to take a liberty here to hijack/tangent on this thread, if I may. It relates to creation.

I'm not a fundamentalist. So I don't get caught up in the discussion of exactly how this all happened - or whether it was 7 days as we know days now - or any of that. I simply have faith that the world I live in DOES exist - and that it was created by My Father in Heaven.

BUT!! I'm always curious about how crazy some of these conflicting accounts must drive fundamentalists - and how they go about explaining things when they must rely on scripture to have every detail - every t crossed - every i dotted - rather than my method of more blind faith. So here's my question:

How - if Adam and Eve were created by God - and then had Cain and Abel - WHERE did Cain and Abel's wives come from?? And for THEIR children - where would THEIR spouses come from? How did the earth go from Adam and Eve to 'populated'?

Curiously awaiting...

sophia:

"blind faith" is most certainly not curious?

 

Francisco,

I am curious as to how those WITHOUT that faith - who have the need of fundamentalist 'all results line up' type thinking - line up the results in this case.

But no - my blind faith doesn't require an answer to make my faith occur. That's always been the point of faith for me. That I WON'T have all the answers - and yet will trust that what the Lord has promised will come to pass. Actually - I have had a short opportunity to see the other side of that veil when my first husband was dying from cancer. I cannot even describe it adequately with words - but I can tell you that THAT DAY - I went from HOPING that the promises were true to knowing deep in my soul that they are absolutely, without a doubt TRUTH. My fear of death was removed. Not my fear of DYING, mind you. There are some horrible ways to die. But my fear of death itself - of what is intended for me afterwards - gone. So I guess it's not really BLIND faith either - more 'seeing faith'.

Regardless - I recognize that not everybody operates as I do - and I do not think that makes them any more or less a Christian. Some are fundamentalists. I am not. But I AM curious how fundamentalists handle these situations where things don't seem to add up with what we are given in a 'word for word' scripture. It would drive me CRAZY to try and make 1 + 1 suddenly come up to 50!! Which is - it seems - what happened after Adam and Eve had Cain and Abel!

Ironically - I wouldn't accept my own blind or seeing faith in my chosen career. Nope - there it's ALL about proving it exists and seeing it happen with my own two eyes. VERY Fundamentalist about my work. Just not my beliefs/religion/faith/Christianity.

sophia:

hopefully one day you will not let "labels" dictate what IS.

for "labels" are of the divisive "god of this world".

and Faith is not "blind", for True Faith is grounded in Miracles and Revelation from A GOD and Father WHO yet communes with HIS Children, for HE IS Alive! Faith "see's" that which IS and not how "imag"inative humans would have it be.

apart from Miracles, faith is but the "straw" that defined who martin luther truly was, an apostle of 'd'evil spirit that seeks to but steal the soul, kill the body and destroy the spirit. seems he remained "catholic" till he breathed his last.

thankfully hope IS!

for Miracles do happen!

Hold the phone!

It seems we're tangentially talking here way off the topic of this thread. But I would like to understand your belief statement without quite so much fancy wording.

Are you a Christian? Do you believe and profess that Christ died for your sins?

And your comment about Martin Luther. 'catholic' when not capitalized - refers to all Christians. Catholic when capitalized - refers to the Roman Catholic church.

Are Lutherans Christians? Some? None?

Are Roman Catholics Christians? Some? None?

Is anybody who professes that Jesus Christ died for their sins a Christian?

Please - simple answers for my simple mind. Can't follow your perhaps more-enlightened utterings - so dumb it down for me - wouldja?

I cannot accept or even entertain with much thought the beliefs of a man until I know how he and I relate on the one truth that I hold above all other - that being the simple gospel joy of John 3:16.

"Can't follow your perhaps more-enlightened utterings - so dumb it down for me - wouldja?"

No.

However, i believe i have already posted that which bears witness to "religion being anti-Messiah." pagan catholicism and her christian daughters are religious institutions.

Yet there is hope!

For Miracles do happen!

Seems you have not experienced The Miracle that is receiving "a love of The Truth", hope is you would.

 

 

 

Sophia
It probably has occurred to you, as it did to me, that it may be a lost cause.

Yes, OS - you are correct. I thought perhaps some straight talk and straight questions would work.

Let me make this clear. I will discuss doctrine with any Holdeman, any Catholic, any Jewish-Christian - in short - ANY CHRISTIAN anywhere any time. But I will not spend my time discussing doctrine or whether my beliefs are right or wrong when the very instruction that every knee should bow - every tongue confess - that Jesus Christ is Lord - is not clearly answered when asked.

I will discuss my faith with any NON-Christian - no matter their choice or religion or belief in even atheism. But only when they can clearly state what they believe and are willing to answer a few questions so that we can know where we each stand to begin a civil discussion.

So yes - lost cause - and finished conversation. Francisco - I wish you every blessing from God - and may you one day know and profess the love of Jesus Christ. He loves you already.

So - anybody have any info for me on this magical Cain/Abel spouse mission? I KNOW that www.cupid.org (is that the one you referenced Amos? ) did not exist at that time - but SOMETHING happened. for 7 day creationists - WHAT happened???

sophia:

i desire not the "blessings" of the "god" you serve.

simply, you but serve "the god of this world", he who is "the father of lies", 'd'evil spirit that seeks but to destroy and pervert The Creation of The Only True GOD. you are of those "whose end is destruction, whose 'god' is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, those who mind earthly things".

yet there is hope!

for Miracles do happen!

 

Amos, I recently read a fascinating book called "Misquoting Truth". I think the author addressed your question but I don't have it anymore and can't remember what his explanation was. This blog introduces the book: http://evangelicaltextualcriticism.blogspot.com/2007/05/misquoting-truth.html

amos:

You wrote: "Genesis 1 1-5 first speaks of God in the beginning creating the heaven and the earth, and bringing light upon the earth."

"LIGHT" begat "Light", most certainly Spiritual Light!
Not of the earth earthly but of The Spirit Heavenly.

Simply, "In The Beginning" The Only True GOD
spoke The Word, "Let There Be Light", "And there
was Light"! "And there was evening(darkness) and
there was morning (Light), The First Day". (Gen 1:5)

Certainly such "Light" was not "natural" light, for
"natural" light, the sun, moon, and stars were not
created until the "fourth day". (Gen 1:14-19)

"In the beginning", "The First Day", The Father of
All created "The Light", without which Creation and
Life, as we now know and experience it, could not
have been.

The First Day, "The Light", The Messiah, "The
beginning of the Creation of GOD(HE WHO is
The Only True GOD and Father of ALL)"!
(Gen 1:3, Rev 3:14, John 17:3, Eph 4:6)

And "The Only True GOD" created all "things" by,
 through, and for "The Light", The Messiah, "The
Son of The Living GOD" and "Son of man".
(Col 1:15, Eph 3:9, Mat 16:16, Mat 12:32)

LIGHT begat Light!

And "The True Light which enlightens every man
coming into the world", was born as a child
destined to be The Messiah. (John 1:9, Mat 1:21)

The Messiah, "The Light of the world".
(John 8:12, 9:5)

The Messiah, "The firstborn of every creature
(all creation)". (Col 1:15)

The Messiah, "Begotten of Our Father",
"The firstborn among many Brethren".
(Heb 1:5) (Ps 2:7) (Rom 8:29)

The Messiah, "A servant of The Only True GOD
(Father of ALL)". (Isa 42:1-7)

The Messiah, "The Lamb of GOD".
(John 1:29,36)

The Messiah, "The firstborn from among the dead".
(Col 1:18)

Once again: "In The Beginning" Our Father, "The
Only True GOD" spoke: "Let there be Light, and
there was Light"! The Messiah, "The Beginning of
the Creation of GOD", "the firstborn of every
creature(all creation)". (Gen 1:3, John 17:3,
Rev 3:14, Col 1:15)

Thanks Be To "Our Father"!

The Messiah, The Creation of "The Only True
GOD, Father of ALL"! (Rev 3:14)

The Messiah, "made so much better than the
angels"! (Heb 1:4)

The Messiah, "The Light of the world"!
(John 8:12, 9:5)

"The Lamb of GOD", "The Light of The New
Heavenly Jerusalem"! (Rev 21:22-23)

And New Jerusalen IS, for "THY Kingdom" HAS "Come" indeed and Truth!

And Truth is never ending.......

 

 

 

Sophia,

The address was " www.dearcupid.org " sorry for the mistake. It shows the many pains people experience when people largely do not have any sexual laws nor even the laws of kindness and honesty.

>>And "The Only True GOD" created all "things"<

Elder child, where is your God?

No Bible verses, please. Just tell me in your own words, minus the quotation marks.

So - anybody have any info for me on this magical Cain/Abel spouse mission?

My thinking is that they married their sisters. Even as far along as Abraham, he married his half-sister so I don't see that in the very beginning that would be so taboo.

**And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.**

>>Even as far along as Abraham, he married his half-sister so I don't see that in the very beginning that would be so taboo.<<

And then look at the Holdis, they marry their cousins. They’re just carrying on an old family tradition.

sirius: 

i will answer, yet not as you would will it, for it is Our Father's Will that i desire, not the will of a mere mortal.

No need for me to add to what those of Faith have bore witness to concerning where "The Only True GOD" dwells. HE is Spirit and can be where HE Wills at any time, anywhere, however, experience and The Testimonies reveal HIS Spirit abides in HIS adopted sons. Truly, there is no one that can hide from the The Only True GOD. HE is Spirit and HIS Spirit goes forth from Heavenly places throughout HIS Creation.

Stephen, "being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into Heaven, and saw the glory of The Only True GOD, and The Messiah standing on the right hand of The Only True GOD, And Stephen said, "Behold, I see the Heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of The Only True GOD."

"If you have risen with The Messiah then seek those things which are above, where The Messiah sits on the right hand of The Only True GOD. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For you are dead, and your life is hid with The Messiah in The Only True God."

Now The Messiah bore witness unto HIS GOD and Father, and also testified that HIS GOD and Father was also The GOD and Father of His Brethren. And The Messiah also declared HIS GOD and Father to "The Only True GOD"! That declaration of Truth needs not be made more than once for those who have received "a love of The Truth", yet the multitudes have been seduced and deceived by the systems of religion that are of this wicked world.

Simply, The Messiah, He testified of "The Only True GOD", and that "The Only True GOD was His GOD and Father", and The Messiah, He and HIS GOD and Father, Peter, and many others, all testified that The Messiah was The Son of The Only True GOD, and The Messiah also testified that He was The Son of man as well.

Yet the multitudes who are held captive by the systems of religion that are of this wicked world? Most of them believe in a three-headed pagan "god" they call their "trinity", and then there are those who declare their "imag"ined" "jesus christ" to be both "father and son", and some declare their version of "jesus christ" to be but an angel or a mere prophet. Simply, sad for them all.

Yet there is hope!

For Miracles do happen!

Hope is there will be those who experience The Miracle that is receiving "a love of The Truth" for they will "see" "The Light" that is The Messiah and such Light will reveal all things as they follow The Messiah on the enLightened path that is The Way to The Truth of The Life.

And Truth IS "THY Kingdom"HAS "Come"!

Truth, as well as The Life, is never ending.......

>>Truly, there is no one that can hide from the The Only True GOD.<,

How do you know that your god is the only true God? How do you know that your god wasn’t put in charge of the universe that you exist in by a much more powerful God?

sirius:

Experience is a great teacher!

oh, and i wanted to mention that those who run this forum no longer send me the e-mails that i have requested to be sent after someone responds to threads in which i have posted.

So, you’re telling me that you know that the god you worship is the only one true God? Is this a fact for you, or do you use faith to believe it?

"So, you’re telling me that you know that the god you worship is the only one true God? Is this a fact for you, or do you use faith to believe it?"

The Messiah, He bore witness unto His GOD and Father, and He testified that His GOD and Father was The Only True GOD(Great Spirit, EL, Father,,). And Paul testified of The ONE GOD, Father(Creator) of ALL(Messiah inclusive).

Those with "eyes to see and ears to hear" realize that "The Only True GOD" is a stronger witness to that which this world calls monotheism than "The ONE GOD, Father of ALL" for "The Only True GOD" quite clearly reveals that although there "are many god's" there is The Only(which is stonger than one), Only True GOD(all others are not true, clearly revealing they are false).

As for "Faith or fact"?

"Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen."

For The Faithful, Faith is fact! For Faith has substance that is grounded in evidence that creates a foundation built upon Rock and not the shifting sands that are this world's systems of religious theo'ry'logy, which but carry on the legacy of the pharisee's. They may know all the words in their "bible" book, yet they know not "The Word", "The Beginning of The Creation of The Only True GOD"!

Yet there is hope!

For Miracles do happen!

Hope is there would be those who experience The Miracle that is receiving "a love of The Truth" for they will "see" "The Light" that is The Messiah.

Peace, in spite of the dis-ease(tradition) that is of this wicked world and it's systems of religion for "the WHOLE world is under the control of the evil one" indeed and Truth".

Truth is never ending.......

Well, it seems that we are actually here.

The beauty of the mountains and valley are all around me as I look out of my window. I am here! The mountains and valleys are here!

I was once a serious agnostic until I realized that neither God nor the vacuum of the idea of a God could be proven. At this point I chose to believe; almost immediately my life went into a time of judgement and then began to spiral upward in quality! Finally I believed on the name of the Lord Jesus and things began to go straight up so far as quality of life was concerned! That speaks to something larger than I! I call this my God! I don't know how else to make the call!

Evil, selfwill, and darkness had caused me to spiral downward into something lesser than into a good quality life. I call this realm the evil and dark realm. Do I do this by Faith? No,I do this by experience! My experience of Christ Jesus has unquestionably brought a living Faith into my life! The life I now live is no longer I who lives it but He who lives in me!

Creation? You know no human witnessed creation yet we somehow believe it occurred in some kind of way. I think that most of us do not accept the idea that all this matter and substance is merely a dream of the cosmic mind.

Moses had a revelation of how creation occurred and then wrote it down, i.e. Yahweh account of creation. Moses was a see-er. What Moses saw as times of light and darkness which he called day and night during creation, may easily have been times of light bursting on the scene in creative ways and the nights could easily have been the times when creation was not active!

Remember, Moses had a revelation, he did not witness creation and that fact can change everything in how we conclude our understanding of things.

doug:

Yes it is a good thing to be in an unspoiled portion of what i like to call "Creation's Genius", yet as the destruction and perversion of Creation continues i wonder, why is it that those who declare themselves to be followers of The Messiah seem to participate in such destruction and perversion in a manner no different, or to an even greater degree, than those who declare no faith in anything but themselves? In fact most efforts to inform and stop such destruction, not perversion, comes from the "back to earth" people who are actually spoken evil of by those say they follow The Messiah. 

Seems there are multitudes who say they follow The Messiah on The Way to The Truth of The Life yet desire "ease of life" rather than "walk as He walked". I mean if they're not even willing to forsake at least some of the destructive ways, that support the lifestyle they have freely chosen, how are they going to "forsake all they have"?

The destruction and perversion of Creation(land, air, water, creatures, Light, Truth, Love, Peace, Hope,, etc.) is happening, and The Testimonies reveal that The Creator(Our Father), He is going "to destroy them who would destroy the earth(Creation).

Yet there is hope!

For Miracles do happen!

Hope is there would be those who experience The Miracle that is receiving "a love of The Truth" for they will "see" the destructive and perverse ways of those who are of this wicked world and it's systems of religion, and those who "see" will heed The Call of The Only True GOD to "Come Out of her, MY people".

Peace, in spite of the dis-ease(destruction) that is of this wicked world and it's systems of religon for "the WHOLE world is under the control of the evil one" indeed and Truth.

Truth is never ending.......

*

So - anybody have any info for me on this magical Cain/Abel spouse mission?

My thinking is that they married their sisters. Even as far along as Abraham, he married his half-sister so I don't see that in the very beginning that would be so taboo.
*

That's logical, Tirone - thanks.

Though does that work for a fundamentalist? Isn't part of the letter of the law require that it have letters - be written?

If the earth was created in 7 days - human understanding of days - because that's what the bible says - then doesn't assumption into what must have happened create doubt that it can all be for real?