Jeff's Johnny the baptism post inspired this post.`

Some groups practice "doctrine hiding". They tell members not to talk or testify about certain teachings.

Groups that hold a conservative view of divorce and remarriage might not tell a new family that they feel like they are in adultery due to one in the marriage has another living spouse. They would initiate the couple into the group and get them to accept the group as OTVC and then later let them know that God will require them to break up. Some OTVC group would try to keep one of the couple if they couldn't keep both of them.

There are other teaches like anti-medical, polygamy, and free-love that OTVC groups hide from members when first initiate.

I am wondering if you have seen this practice of doctrine hiding in the Holdeman group and if so in what way.

Qwerty; I don't think there is any "doctrine hiding" in the H church. I think they are fairly up front with the base of their beliefs. WHere I think they are not open, is their different levels of control of individuals conscience. The revival efforts, I believe cause some very difficult situations, especially by those ministers who have strong personalities. Revivals are viewed as "getting back on track with God" and a pushy personality certainly will force control on individuals... These situations are not hidden, but they are not seen ahead of time till a minister(s) conclude that a member must be brought in line.

I think this touches on Fred's biggest beef about the H church.

In my day, and in my congregation, the OTVC was not an open issue and as I remember, it only came up when one would philosophy and try to intellectually look at what might have been a perfect plan of God's. This is all that J Holdeman had going for him; he philosophized "... since there originally was only one unified organized church, therefore all organization was to remain under one roof with one baptism and Lord's supper. He therefore missed the real inner spiritual side of Jesus teachings and lifted the "worldly" or that which is seen.

It is my belief that the Holdeman Mennonite doctrinal teachings on usury are a hidden doctrine.

John Holdeman's "Mirror of Truth" is treated as a cornerstone of the foundation of Holdeman Mennonite doctrine, and it is my understanding from reading this book that paying interest is considered the same as charging interest in terms of the sin of usury.

Psytrancer
"It is my belief that the Holdeman Mennonite doctrinal teachings on usury are a hidden doctrine."

When I say doctrine hiding I mean the ministers telling the lay people not to tell new people about a certain doctrine.

So are you saying that the Holdeman ministers tell their members to not tell new people about the usury teaching and wait until they are fully initiated into the group and get them professing the the Holdeman sect is the OTVC before they let them know?

<<<Qwerty; I don't think there is any "doctrine hiding" in the H church. >>>

What a disgusting untruth. I asked an H flat out why they didn't offer full discosure and they said "because new members need to mature before they hear the "harder" doctrines". What's your game Hank? Why are you so flacid, soft, vacillating, accommodating? Sheesh!

Qwerty - I misunderstood your question.

 These situations are not hidden, but they are not seen ahead of time till a minister(s) conclude that a member must be brought in line.

Hank, with all due respect; can you not see the sophistry in that statement?

"doctrine hiding" may be closely related to, lying by omission.

The first rule of sales,,,"never answer an unasked question".

Scott; I have never in my life heard such a statement. Such would have been totally out of character and dignity of the pastor FPW, under whose preaching I grew up. He was like an open book.

Peter, I am not understanding you, unless you misunderstood me. I said the "control" which is elusive and something that pops up, but is not seen as part of their doctrinal beliefs at all. How can you tell someone of un-biblical actions which are not seen as such. And, these come differently from different pastors. Of the basics of the Holdeman faith, I do not believe (in my time) such EVER was any part of the faith and practice of CGCM, that was deliberately withheld from believers !!!

I will say this, I did not make the early on cut of the first cleansing of the "purge" and so I did not see first hand the deteriorating leadership actions, which I understand continued to speed along like a run-away train.

Scott; I do not doubt what you were told, but I would like to see it in writing as part of their policy. This is terrible if this really is part of the policy. Just thinking, did the Stoppels write of this ? promote it themselves in their church sponsored publications when they were part of CGCM ? or where they advised of it by the publication board when they were asked to re-write one of their books ?

I recall, but do not have the quote at hand, that a few years ago, there was a statement in some Holdepublication to the effect that certain doctrines (including, if I remember correctly, the OTVC doctrine) should not initially be disclosed to 'worldly' people who were interested in joining the Holdechurch. It was deemed better to wait until later (either once they had joined, or perhaps it was once they were brainwashed) and then inform them. Doctrine hiding? Yup. The Holdies do it.

There definitely is doctrine hiding by the entire Holdeman church. When my mom wrote the book Whether is be of God, the last chapter of the book was on the one true church. She was later asked if that could be removed as many people coming "searching" were just not ready for that yet.
You live under a rock with rose colored glasses if you think they don't hide doctrine!

I don't think the mainstream doctrines are hidden in the h church are, but their are "unwritten " rules are. For instance they are called guidlenines instead of the rules that mean "you can't do this or else". (AT one time it was okay to send your children to high school. And many did. But then it was decided that only certain ones could go. This happened right before the panel began.)Example is when high school education in public schools was okay. Then it tightened to certain situations was okay to send your children. The preachers decided on what/whom it was okay to send. We talked to a deacon why we thought we should send our daughter to high school. He didn't say no or wait until he talked to the rest of the staff, but just said he understood why. So we sent her. At mid-term, we were told to take her out or else, since they hadn't okayed our sending her. We took her out. Another unwritten rule is, you have to wear a black covering. If you don't believe it, have your spouse dress exactly the way she does, wear her covering in exactly the same style, but have it navy blue or brown.

Another time there were six couples that one or the other was divorced and they were accepted back into the h church. Some 10-15-20 years later they were expelled because one or the other was divorced. Some of these couples were from CA, MI, and KS. calledoutPTL

Well, I am genuinely disappointed that the H church, as a policy would resort to "doctrine hiding". This is a serious indictment.

More then likely any who have experienced this have a case for full annulment of membership and/or $ damages.

I just want to ask, is it possibly only some rouge ministers who resort to this ? or is it actual regular recommended course of action ?

The God I know and trust does not withhold anything from believers. A believer can always know exactly where he/she stands with God and there are no traps or unseen requirements. Nor does God dangle a carrot to entice one, and then pull it away when one reaches to Him. The God of the Bible is fully open and can always be trusted.

It is Satan who is the accuser of the brethren and he resorts to shams and con games, and then laughs when he has suckered one into sin.

>>Well, I am genuinely disappointed that the H church, as a policy would resort to "doctrine hiding". This is a serious indictment... I just want to ask, is it possibly only some rouge ministers who resort to this ? or is it actual regular recommended course of action ?<<

I can understand your disappointment, Hank, given your propensity to defend the Holdeman organisation (or, as Scott might put it, play patty-cake with them). However, as far as whether it is "only some rouge [sic] ministers who resort to this", I think that you are engaging in wishful thinking. The example I cited in my previous post was published, (if my memory serves correctly), in a Sunday School quarterly published by the COGICM Inc. (a Kansas corporation). Presumably this represents the official line of the corporation's views, since it seems there is a fairly comprehensive censoring, uhhhh, I mean editing, process to which publications by the corporation are subjected.

The OTVC teaching holds all the secrets. Even if a person is advised of this teaching, they are not advised of all that it entails. Sometimes people have a hard time accepting this teaching before joining, but they eventully force it down, only to find out later they can't handle all that is hidden within it. I think it is safe to say that an outsider never knows all of the TRUTH before they join. But it is always hoped that once they are a member and the fear of excommunication hangs over them that they will gradually take the medicine.

I think it is a safe bet to say that if an outsider witnessed the relentless sequence of brutal stone-hearted decisions made regarding the H seduction of my wife, and their subsequent decisions to never back down (even after Franklin Wenger said, "we should have taken it under more advisement before reaccepting your wife without you"), I believe it is safe to say that NO ONE would join.

VS, your post is perfectly accurate. They are not so dumb as to write down their repugnant practice. They only write down what they want to have publicly compared with other Churchs who don't "keep all the doctrines". Everything they do is about their credibility, which then bolsters their assumed authority. If writing it down serves them, they write it down. If it works better as secret back room spiritual/emotional sodomy, then thats where it stays.

This would be accurate in our congregation. "The OTVC should be brought to light only when the convert is ready to understand the truth."

That would also be my understanding of how it is approached. The OTVC is not usually pushed or discussed early on at all.

>>"The OTVC should be brought to light only when the convert is ready to understand the truth."<<

A big chill ran down my spine when I read that sentence.

Question for TR, WTK, Forreal, Xeppy: What is your opinion of the statement posted by Yo Yo?

This would be accurate in our congregation. "The OTVC should be brought to light only when the convert is ready to understand the truth."




Oh yea, I was "ready" to understood the truth, the truth was they had fully planned on forcing me to submit to their filthy conference lies and ministerial lordship, and if I refused the truth was they were going to divide my family from me.

They like putting a soul into tug of war, on one side is the truth of the gospel

Ga 2:5* To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

that says one should not submit to any requirement that is not scriptural.

And on the other side of the tug of war is the truth that they hold all the stolen cards of authority and if you don't place yourself under their filthy lies they will take away your family rights

Now Steven; we should note that your are still only making "presumptions" and depending on a faulty memory.

YoYoxxx, your comments could be more credible as you seem to be speaking about current policy and you sound as though you are a current member. I accept first hand comments (April, I accept your comments of your parents) as credible info.

This subject bothers me. It is not right to not disclose (to deliberately withhold) all the doctrines, policy, rules, etc; regardless even of a minister does not agree with them. The church MUST BE an open book (I am not talking about confidential, personal discussion of the clergy with a lay person) and all beliefs and MO must be on the table. If they are not, then the organization would appear to be nothing more then a secret society/club, and does not represent the God who ALL CAN KNOW.

>>Now Steven; we should note that your are still only making "presumptions" and depending on a faulty memory<<

Hank: I have bumped the thread to which I was referring. And you're calling my memory 'faulty'??

Thanks Steven; you have now put actual quotes to what you said "if my memory serves we correctly".

We do note that the article says "... we should not stress... (the OTVC) till it is revealed to one..." It does not say to deliberately hid it. There may be a difference; or is there ?

I think I am calmed down enough now.
After reading this I got very worked up.
Yes I agree there are hidden doctrines
Some intentionally and some more so by
If they don’t ask don’t tell.
But in my Bible lying is a grave sin.
I was expelled once for lying by omission.
How can these people call them self’s Christians?
And go on living this way with a clear conciseness?

Some groups practice "doctrine hiding". They tell members not to talk or testify about certain teachings.

Groups that hold a conservative view of divorce and remarriage might not tell a new family that they feel like they are in adultery due to one in the marriage has another living spouse. They would initiate the couple into the group and get them to accept the group as OTVC and then later let them know that God will require them to break up. Some OTVC group would try to keep one of the couple if they couldn't keep both of them.

There are other teaches like anti-medical, polygamy, and free-love that OTVC groups hide from members when first initiate.

I am wondering if you have seen this practice of doctrine hiding in the Holdeman group and if so in what way.


QWERTY,

Nothing is hidden. You have been reading this forum, which is full of ex-members, most all of who know about everything there is to know about CGCM doctrine. I have been discussing several of these things right here in broad daylight, right here on this forum, and I believe I have honestly spoke my heart about all issues that have been brought up. If I were trying to hide doctrine, I would definitely not be posting here...

In regards to April's comment, I was one that got some of the information in the mail they (Will & Vivian) sent out. I also have read about everything on their website. As far as the issue of taking the "Church" chapter out of the book Vivian wrote, the basis for that would be because there are things a Christian grows in as they experience the work of God in and among true believers, which, upon initial contact, the fruits of these things are apparent, but the foundation of such may or may not be (Hebrews 5:12-14)

The OTVC doctrine is based upon the belief that there was a unified visible church in the New Testament, and that in no way did God ever ordain another plan apart from that divine original one. I am not ashamed of that, if I were, I feel like I would also be ashamed of Jesus Christ. However, despite that belief I hold for myself, I do not, to the best of my ability, want to offend those that are seeking the things of truth by heaping things on them that they are not ready to recieve. There are those things that are "milk", and there are those things that are "meat", there are those things that are "perfection", and there are those things that are "foundation", and the Bible is clear that once a Christian has been established in the faith, that there are deeper things such a person should be ready to recieve. The foundation of the OTVC teaching is just such a matter, I believe.

If I had sufficient cause to change this believe, I would. However, such a cause has not been presented here thus far.


***let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Hebrews 12:1b***

It’s threads like this one that remind me why I occasionally come back and read on this site. A group of (mostly) intelligent people getting their knickers all in a wad over the H possibly ‘hiding’ doctrines. The H are some of the most transparent people around, I think it would be almost impossible to hide anything. You are giving them too much credit.

Hoo boy. Maybe I need to get some sleep. Gotta work tonight.

Semper Fi

TR
"Nothing is hidden. You have been reading this forum, which is full of ex-members, most all of who know about everything there is to know about CGCM doctrine. I have been discussing several of these things right here in broad daylight, right here on this forum, and I believe I have honestly spoke my heart about all issues that have been brought up. If I were trying to hide doctrine, I would definitely not be posting here..."

Let me quote for my original post.

"They would initiate the couple into the group and get them to accept the group as OTVC and then later let them know that God will require them to break up."

"There are other teaches like anti-medical, polygamy, and free-love that OTVC groups hide from members when first initiate."

Clearly the question was about doctrine hiding from new members and then after they are initiated into the group informing them of these hidden teachings. So it appears either you missed my point or side stepped it.

"As far as the issue of taking the "Church" chapter out of the book Vivian wrote, the basis for that would be because there are things a Christian grows in as they experience the work of God in and among true believers, which, upon initial contact, the fruits of these things are apparent, but the foundation of such may or may not be."

Nominal Christianity teaches that one of the marks that a group is a cult is when they claim they are the only true church and all others are wrong. Many people that are seen as prospective member are aware that an OTVC claim is considered a mark of a cult. For this reason it is not abnormal for a OTVC claiming group to hide this teaching from new members.

It would appear from Aprils testimony that this was the reason this chapter was removed.

"However, despite that belief I hold for myself, I do not, to the best of my ability, want to offend those that are seeking the things of truth by heaping things on them that they are not ready to recieve. There are those things that are "milk", and there are those things that are "meat", there are those things that are "perfection", and there are those things that are "foundation", and the Bible is clear that once a Christian has been established in the faith, that there are deeper things such a person should be ready to recieve."

TR what you state in the above quoted paragraph is the reasoning groups use that practice doctrine hiding.

OTVC group hold that new members are babes in Christ and are not ready for spiritual meat. Therefore they hide the meat as they don't want them to be offended and not because part of the true Church. They will quote scripture like "I [Christ] have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now" (Joh 16:12), or "I [Christ] have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able" (1Cor 3:2).

This practice is doctrine hiding.

OTVC status and remarriage separation are two of the most common teachings that are hidden from new or prospective members. The OTVC teaching is hidden from new members as nominal Christianity teaches it is a mark of a cult. When group claiming OTVC status don't hide this teaching from prospective members there recruitment averages will go down.

The remarriage separation teaching is hidden from prospective members that have a living spouse from another marriage and have remarried. In some cases even when prospective members ask the group what they teach on divorce and remarriage is they won't be given a straight answer. This teaching is hidden from them until they are fully initiated into the group. Then they will be told that the Lord is requiring them to separate. If they refuse to separate the group will try to keep at least one for the spouses or if they can they may try to keep the children that are of adult age.

There are other groups that have teaching concerning snake handling, free-love, polygamy, anti-medical, end-times claims (past or current date setting) but these are not as popular as OTVC status or remarriage separation teachings.

I personally consider the practice of doctrine hiding to be deceitful but at the same time I can understand how groups use the reasoning that the ends justifies the means can excuse this practice.

YoYo789
"This would be accurate in our congregation. "The OTVC should be brought to light only when the convert is ready to understand the truth.""

Is this quote from a minister and if so are you quoting from memory or is it written down in one of the Holdeman books.

It just dawned on me that I have missed one of the most popular hidden doctrines which is spiritual abuse.

This is where ministers will be overbearing, carnal, accusative, rude, slanderous, and use backroom bullying techniques which include the beatings with the sheep club, threats of ex-communication, ban and shun -- all to get you to comply to doctrines and rules of the group.

Another practice that is hidden (it's not a doctrine) is the concealing of ministers that molester children. Offenders will be not longer be ministers but no will will know why. They will be moved to another congregation and the party or parties which the offenses where committed against will be encourage by the ministry to keep the offense(s) hidden.

This believe it or not is a common occurrence in OTVCs and in the last ten years has become a well known problem in the Roman Catholic and the Watchtower Society. Both these groups claim OTVC status.

I feel like new members should be informed that by OTVCs that they hide child molesters and will use spiritual abuse to try to get member to comply to their teachings and rules. Honesty is the best policy.

YoYo789
"This would be accurate in our congregation. "The OTVC should be brought to light only when the convert is ready to understand the truth.""

Qwerty
Is this quote from a minister and if so are you quoting from memory or is it written down in one of the Holdeman books.

This is ministerial direction and I can only speak this for my congregation.

Sheesh... Semper Fidelis; unless you can handle adjectives like flacid, soft, vacillating, accommodating etc. barraged at you, you might want to be a little more careful with your comments about H openness...

Hank,

I'm surprised you didn't believe the Holdemans were withholding information. Don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with it, it's cool with me, because all governments do it.

Brent

TR, I would like to know why you would consider the OTVC doctrine to be "meat", and what criteria determines when one is able to receive it?

Brent; I honestly held (hold?) a higher view of CGCM that they would DELIBERATELY withhold doctrinal information so as to bring people into the church. That is FRAUDULENT !!! And as I understand it, to commit fraud is SIN. Period.

I think some H supporters need to clarify this. I have no reason to disbelieve Scott or YoYo, or Anon H, or the Stoppels... or others of what some person/minister has said in conversation. Some person wrote the SS lesson and it may not have been meant as forceful as some here have indicated.

This is terrible; I don't care if governments withhold information, but in the Spiritual realm, when you deal with man's eternal destiny... what do you do ? try to trick people into heaven ?? I does not work that way. Such is the utter hight of ridicules missionary activity. I can hardly believe that ANY minister would say such, let alone hold to such a view that one withhold doctrinal beliefs from a new believer. Especially so since it is an apparent expellable offense to reject the belief of OTVC.

I'm not yet convinced that it really is that way... conference wide and conference approved !!! Listen; I do not believe in the OTVC as taught in BD&P and so since there are those who hold (in my understanding) to incorrect biblical views, I guess anything else is also possible.

Hank
"This is terrible; I don't care if governments withhold information, but in the Spiritual realm, when you deal with man's eternal destiny... what do you do ? try to trick people into heaven ?? I does not work that way. Such is the utter hight of ridicules missionary activity. I can hardly believe that ANY minister would say such, let alone hold to such a view that one withhold doctrinal beliefs from a new believer. Especially so since it is an apparent expellable offense to reject the belief of OTVC."

In some OTVCs it has been instructed in their members meetings to not let visitors know about the non-medical teaching. I had a minister from an OTVC group tell me of a couple that was interested in joining and was asking this minister what the group taught on divorce and remarriage, as one of the couple had been married before and according to the groups teaching the marriage was adultery and would need to be forsaken, and the minister beat around the bush and didn't give them a straight answer as to the groups teaching.

My personal experience in being part of more then one OTVC group and from talking to others that this is a common practice amount OTVC groups. When I asked if the Holdeman practiced doctrine hiding I fully expected to be told they do. It's the MO of an OTVC.

Has any reader here been through an H doctrine class? If so, do they teach the OTVC?



Btw, does anyone know how to get rid of a computer virus? I've been trying for three days now. I can receive emails but but I can't send any.

GM,

Our daughter went through the girl's preparatory class last June up in northern Iowa and it was quite apparent to us at the "graduation" program that the OTVC doctrine was presented to them. It was mentioned in several of their essays.

GM - I sent you an email regarding fixing your computer virus. Please let me know if you need any help.

Clearly the question was about doctrine hiding from new members and then after they are initiated into the group informing them of these hidden teachings. So it appears either you missed my point or side stepped it.

Qwerty,

No one here has joined the church without being fully aware of the OTVC doctrine, in fact, one of the families who come from a liberal background were initially turned off by the doctrine, and quit coming to church here because of it(prior to becoming members). Today they have no issue with it.



Nominal Christianity teaches that one of the marks that a group is a cult is when they claim they are the only true church and all others are wrong. Many people that are seen as prospective member are aware that an OTVC claim is considered a mark of a cult. For this reason it is not abnormal for a OTVC claiming group to hide this teaching from new members.

Nominal Christianity today is mostly a false doctrine, built around the reasoning of man instead of obedience to God.



TR what you state in the above quoted paragraph is the reasoning groups use that practice doctrine hiding.

That fact does not make Biblical teaching invalid.



When group claiming OTVC status don't hide this teaching from prospective members there recruitment averages will go down.

I previously said that in my congregation the OTVC doctrine is not hidden to anyone seeking membership here. This congregation has a higher percentage of those that came from backgrounds other than Holdeman than a majority of CGCM congregations do. One of my parents came from a liberal background.



The remarriage separation teaching is hidden from prospective members that have a living spouse from another marriage and have remarried. In some cases even when prospective members ask the group what they teach on divorce and remarriage is they won't be given a straight answer. This teaching is hidden from them until they are fully initiated into the group. Then they will be told that the Lord is requiring them to separate. If they refuse to separate the group will try to keep at least one for the spouses or if they can they may try to keep the children that are of adult age.

I will give anyone a straight answer myself. For the record, we have those in our congregation that are D&R (before they joined the CGCM of course). They are quite much living together, with no pressure whatsoever to seperate, in fact, the encouragement is rather that there would be a strong home there. If people were asked to seperate in order to be members of the CGCM, this would have to take place before they became members, however, such a requirement is not made.

***let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Hebrews 12:1b***

Hank,

Sometimes I think you and my Grandfather would get along very well. You and him talk much alike.

***let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Hebrews 12:1b***

<<<If people were asked to seperate in order to be members of the CGCM, this would have to take place before they became members, however, such a requirement is not made.>>>

Warning! False statement. A couple at Greensurg who can't join because of previous marriage prove this to be false.

TR I hope and pray that you are really not as niave as you come across here. It may be that way where you live to a degree, but it will only be that way till you get the right minister for revivals and then you might just have it a different way than you are thinking it is. Here a couple came for 10 yrs and their case was brought to annual meeting twice and to conference once. the answer was still, you must get a dissallutionment. She told them "I did that once not realising what I was doing. I will not do it again." there are several divorce remarriage couples here but none of them was able to join without a very large amount of screening, intense scrutiny, and being made to hold to the OTVC doctrine.
My whole family was baptised without the OTVC ever being made an open issue. Never knew about it really till after I was in the church awhile and then if it was brought up, it was stated like "Oh there is people that believe that but not every body does." Interestng concept that holds me from being reaccepted, cause I never believed it in the first place, and I was put out on a ministers lies, a situation with no resolve, because you can rebaptise but you cannot unexpell. I mean how would the church maintain discipline if they would actually say they did something wrong and go about to correct it. My parents got a whole bunch of letters from various places when they left about how they were being exed because they didn't believe in the OTVC. That was 24 yrs ago.
I have given up on it, It simply isn't worth the struggle to me anymore, and I am moving on with my life. I find it rather disgusting the things that the H in this place are saying about me though, It is totally amazing all the things they have come up with so far to tell their relatives and discuss about us, especially since not one H from here has even spoke to us in any way about anything spiritual or any other matters for more than 4 mos, nor have they seen us.
I guess if they realy had a real knowledge of what they are talking about I could understand it but I sure haven't seen hide nor hair of them

Love and prayers, Locklady

TR
"No one here has joined the church without being fully aware of the OTVC doctrine"

How long on an average does a family attend before they become a member? Is there a period of proving time become people can become members and if there is how long is it? If there is a period of proving time at what point are the prospective members told about the OTVC teaching?

"Nominal Christianity today is mostly a false doctrine, built around the reasoning of man instead of obedience to God."

I would agree with you on that one. I noted what nominal Christianity teaches as one of the marks of a cult not because I agreed with that teaching but became many prospective members would believe or have been warned that the OTVC teaching is the mark of a cult.

"Qwerty said: TR what you state in the above quoted paragraph is the reasoning groups use that practice doctrine hiding.
TR replied: That fact does not make Biblical teaching invalid."

Where OTVC, divorce separation, or other doctrines are correct or not is not the issue here. The issue is does Holdeman group hide certain teachings from prospective members in any way. I personally believe in the OTVC teaching (not like the CGCM teaches) and I believe at divorce separation is a Bible teaching.

While I agree that couples should separate where one or both have been divorced and have a living spouse from a biblical marriage (because the intimate relationship is adultery), I don't believe this teaching should be hide from them when they start attending meetings at a congregation that teaches divorce separation.

While I understand the reasoning for hiding the doctrine I feel like it is deceitful.

"I previously said that in my congregation the OTVC doctrine is not hidden to anyone seeking membership here."

If you congregation doesn't believe in doctrine hiding, and I accept that in your congregation it doesn't, then do you think that other congregation do? Do you accept the testimonies of those here that are saying that the congregation they attended or used to attend hide this teaching. If in the CGCM is the one and only true visible church why is there not uniformity between congregations? (I guess this is another question but I am wondering why it seems some congregation don't teaching remarriage separation and some do. Sounds like there is a lack for uniformity of doctrine from congregation to congregation.)

I broke this question out to "Is There Uniformity of Doctrine in the CGCM".
http://www.network54.com/Forum/419882/thread/1205845644/

"For the record, we have those in our congregation that are D&R (before they joined the CGCM of course)."

Do you think it matters if they got into an adulterous marriage before or after they jointed the CGCM. Adultery is adultery?

"They are quite much living together, with no pressure whatsoever to seperate, in fact, the encouragement is rather that there would be a strong home there."

I guess I should open up another thread on this on. I would like to know why some congregations are encouraging divorced and remarried couples to stay together and other congregations are no.

I broke this question out in "Divorice and Remarrage -- Is it Adultry?".
http://www.network54.com/Forum/419882/thread/1205845872/

"If people were asked to seperate in order to be members of the CGCM, this would have to take place before they became members, however, such a requirement is not made."

It appears to be the standard in some congregations?

LL - "I find it rather disgusting the things that the H in this place are saying about me though, It is totally amazing all the things they have come up with so far to tell their relatives and discuss about us"

Please don't condemn us for our gossip, God will take care of that. And yes IRDHTW. The way LL put it.

1 Tim 5:13 And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not.

"Please don't condemn us for our gossip, God will take care of that. And yes IRDHTW. The way LL put it."

I am trying to not condemn, I want to be understanding and full of love for those that were my family for so many years
I guess I am too human and take things too personal. I guess it just hurts sometimes to think that I can leave where I have been for so many yrs and the only thing that is done is stories be told. I have had so few actual spiritual discussions with H in this place in the past yrs and so little actual connection with anyone for yrs that there would be only a couple people there that could actually say that they have any idea of who I am any more. there are those that I could have been close to but because of the situation I did not feel free to reach out and be friends with them because to associate with me meant that you were automatically put into a position to be given the 3rd degree and I could not do that to my true friends so instead I kept away from them, rather than put them into a compromising position.
I have one friend that no longer attends there, that was warned many times to stay away from me, another that was told to have nothing to do with me. Must be my bad Karma or something.
There have been several that I can still count as friends and a number that I could be with if it would not put them under threat even though they will never understand what has happened in the situation any more than I will.
I have been so thankful for my H friends in far off places that have taken the time and love to keep our friendships current, they still do. They have meant so much to me. God has often sent them to minister to me in times when I was struggling alone and needed a friend.

But also along the way God has sent me others that have become close to me, that I would have never met had I not been thrown into this journey alone. Because of what Satan tried to do to put me down, and My search for God in the severe trial, I have met more people and become close friends with more H, X and Others than I would have ever imagined. I Stand amazed in the presence of an Almighty God that is greater than we can ever imagine. I have no idea of what God has for us or where he is taking us but I can say we have been spiritually blessed in the past 4 mos more than we could ever imagine and we are growing in our journey with God.
I pray for understanding from those of you that we are leaving, but I also pray for you in your journey because I do not see it becoming easier for you where you are . but God knows what he is going to take us all thru and he will be with us all of the way.



Love and prayers, Locklady

LL - "I am trying to not condemn"

I know you weren't, I was trying to point the finger at us...I should of added one of these as well.
I wish you well.

thank you for your well wish, Yoyo. I was simply saying I am trying not to condemn. You know that is sometimes really hard to do. I want to condemn and say you are to blame for my heart ache. But I know that there is a greater power named Satan that is causing this all and there is a power greater than he named Jesus Christ, who is our all in all, if we let him be.
I was in a Bible study today and trials is one of the things we talked about. For me this has been a very long trial and sometimes I want to say "I want this over with, be done with it and let me go on with life the way that I think it should be". But that does not happen. We are truly Gold being refined by Fire and God will bring Beauty from the Ashes. And long here on earth is but a short time for eternity. The past few months have been just that for us. So Great has been my grief at leaving that I cried every day for more than 4 weeks. Now it is only a couple times a week. I know some will not understand that, but there are those that read on here that are not posting that will understand because they are going thru similar trials and they too are wondering will it end. But that has really been freeing for me, because all thru the past 12 yrs, I have seldom grieved the losses I recieved and instead bottled them up inside and went on like I was strong and handling it all. Instead of grieving and letting them go, I tried to carry them along and stay strong for my family's sake. Never realising that I was holding my hurts from allowing God to heal them for me. While I thought I could not leave, I also found that I could also no longer go on, being constantly condemned and alone. I have yet to find in my Bible a place that says I am to condemn to Hell every one that does not live the Holdeman lifestyle or that comes into contact with the H that does not join them.
I pray for those of you that I know are having struggles where you are and that God will give you the strength you need to go thru your season of fire. If we look for it, there really is Joy on the Journey.

Love and prayers, Locklady

Ladylock
"I am trying to not condemn, I want to be understanding and full of love for those that were my family for so many years
I guess I am too human and take things too personal. I guess it just hurts sometimes to think that I can leave where I have been for so many yrs and the only thing that is done is stories be told."

My heart and prayer go out to you. Many a wicked tongue and a simple mind have caused hurt to the children of God. But we must expect this of the simple and the wicked. There hate is for the Saviour not you. But you are allowed to feel a bit of what your Saviour felt and drink of his bitter cup. Rejoice sister! Let it stir up holy hatred for the devil in your soul. Go and pay the devil back by doing good to these poor deluded souls. Pray for them and bless them!

Mat 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Mat 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

If what you are saying is happening I would say that if the CGCM had any kind of spirituality amoung their people they would teach them not to be simple and believe the stories that they hear and to be prudent (Pro 14:15) and to ask those that are repeating the stores if they looked well into their going by checking out both sides to see if the store is true. Those that repeat (answereth) a matter before they find out both sides (heareth it) it is a folly and shame to them (Pro 18:13).

Human experience should tell us that when a person tells use their side of the story that it naturally seem right (seemeth just), but when you allow the other person (neighbor) to give you their side (cometh and searcheth him), you find out that it is not always like you have been told (Pro 18:17).

Here is some a good standard to live by.

16. Speech – don’t speak corrupt words but words that will edify (Eph 4:29); be careful not to talk to much (Pro 17:28); try not to be the center of all conversations but encourage others to be part of the conversation; realize that there are always two sides to ever story you are told (Pro 18:13, 17); don’t believe or repeat all that you are told (Pro 14:15); refuse to listen to or repeat gossip; don’t discuss the failings and faults of others; try to steer conversations toward spiritual things; walk away from sinful conversations (Mat 12:37).

People that repeat what they are told are spiritual simple at the best. You will known them by there fruit.

LL About this couple that came for 10 years. If it's not who I think it is please correct me. One of those involved grew up in an H home and ran off and got married when 19 or 20. Got divorced and then got remarried later even though she was advised clearly on the biblical truth of the matter. God forgives but you can't be activly what you clearly knew to be wrong when you started and expect everything to be OK. The way I understand is that if a d & r comes up they try to determine if the yknew that it was wrong when they did it and mostly the level of spiritual life and growth in thse involved. I was around them some and something just didn't seem right to me. Althogh I did like them when they came around.

I came from a non-h backround and don't fell I was left in the dark about anything. I attended for a few years before I joined. Like buying a new house or car nothing is exactly like you expect but that is called life. You can't move into anything new or travel in a different social circle without there being some adjustments.

I'm a travelin man!

Unfortunately there is much more to that situation than you will ever know TM, but that is beside the point. Of the D & R situations that I know of in the church there is very little that can be said about them having some idea of what they did being wrong. In fact I know very few divorced people that did not have some inkling that it should not be happening. But sometimes a spouse is so abusive that it is life threatening and cannot go on any more. Even where people do it on a regular basis I do not believe that they would be able to honestly say from the bottom of thier heart that something was not wrong with the picture in the first place.
But I somehow cannot get this that if a couple that is already married and in this place comes to a place where they have come to God and are trying to live a life for him that He would in reality ask them to seperate. I think that if a couple is now in a stable relationship that God would see them where they are. I have never been able to see where breaking another home would be beneficial especially if there are now children involved, as is often the case.
Are we really looking at the big picture? I guess I know too many broken people.

>>Like buying a new house or car nothing is exactly like you expect but that is called life.<

But usually there is warranty and/or you can return, exchange, and repair the problem with your purchase. The biggest problem is that the Holdeman church doesn't admit there is a problem.

>>I liked them when they came around<<

What does that mean in English? You liked them when they dropped by to visit? Or is this a Holdemanese term?

<<<Don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with it, it's cool with me, because all governments do it.>>>

CGCM is a corporation, is therefore subject to US (or Kansas?) corporate law. Nonfulldisclosure violates this law, and voids the contract. You say that all governments do it. Yes, that is why all will be judged. That is precisely what God hates. The least that people can expect in a government is integrity according to their own laws which were fully disclosed. Damn, do we actually not know the fundamentals of good government yet?

Governments that don't rule with integrity according to their own laws are feminine in nature, this is the "defiled by woman" spoken of in Revelations. This is Jezebel. This type of rule is by sentimentalism, emotionalism, intuition, and caprice. A masculine government rules by law with full disclosure and sticks with it. CGCM is one of the most feminine type governments I have ever observed. CGCM only appears on the surface to be a legal system, but it is not! The ministers break or change their own laws in a second if it suits them. It is not a legal system. It is a Jezebel system which "governs" the people by intuition, and in the process, nearly drives clear thinking people insane. People who haven't studied thing thing out will think I'm speaking a foreign language here.

This whole thread amazes me everyone keep up the good work!

qwerty - and to ask those that are repeating the stores if they looked well into their going by checking out both sides to see if the store is true. Those that repeat (answereth) a matter before they find out both sides (heareth it) it is a folly and shame to them


qwerty, in the Holdeman church there is an unspoken rule that you simply are not allowed to "look into" a matter. That election or opportunity is delegated by culture to the ministry and the people will get into church work for uncovering stuff that the ministry choses to hide. This is one of the basic, never spoken about and almost universally held cardinal rules of membership.

I got in lots of trouble, for, when I was accused of a falsehood, I tended to go to the person i knew to be spreading it and say "I don't know where you heard that from, and please do not tell me who it was, but it is patently false and whoever told it to you needs to find God" Please go back to him or her and explain to them they are sinning by telling you my problems instead of me. That is patently called a false accusation and is therefore a death sin if left alone.

I suppose many times my statement was not perfectly true for usually it was originated from the people in control and I was aware of their maneuvers by unprovable allegations of others, and I simply wanted the gosssip to stop.

But the holdeman people love gossip, they live in it, are born in it, they worship it, and are controlled by it. Gossip it the essence of the "holy spirit" if they honestly thought through what they follow.

For, if the Real Holy Spirit, were to get through to their heart, they would love the bible more than unspoken rules of membership, but since the unspoken rules are more important than the bible, therefore those rules have precedence over bible truth, and when they go contrary, they will attack anyone exposing the deficiency.




Pr 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

Fred
"qwerty, in the Holdeman church there is an unspoken rule that you simply are not allowed to "look into" a matter. That election or opportunity is delegated by culture to the ministry and the people will get into church work for uncovering stuff that the ministry choses to hide. This is one of the basic, never spoken about and almost universally held cardinal rules of membership."

Are you saying that the Holdeman minister will tell their members stories about other members with out going to that member and first seeing if it is true. Or are you talking about them dropping hints about like "we need to pray for brother Smith, seems the spirit of pride is trying to get a hold of him as he has not been taking instruction very well lately".

Then are you saying the members will then share this (not the prayer request the story) with each other with out checking it out first?

I have seen it in one OTVC group where someone but in a prayer request in a brother meeting for a person and then spend at least 15 mins going over all that persons faults and all the places they need help. Of course the simple minded will discuss this among themselves.

Are you saying that the Holdeman minister will tell their members stories about other members with out going to that member and first seeing if it is true.



That has been my experience, everyone sort of "believes" everything spoken, discernment is certainly not a sought after attribute of Holdemanism.



Or are you talking about them dropping hints about like "we need to pray for brother Smith, seems the spirit of pride is trying to get a hold of him as he has not been taking instruction very well lately".

qwerty, I have a friend this was not liked by the h leadership because he was from the outside. He was accused by the leadership of using illegal drugs. He and one of his friends went to the deacon and asked if the deacon was going around making that statement, the deacon didn't even apologize, but felt it his right to tell everyone in the congregation about this illegall drug use that was simply not true.

My friend is now "exed" and the deacon is still a deacon. and this is how the h does it all the time, though for the most part not quite so pronounced.



Then are you saying the members will then share this (not the prayer request the story) with each other with out checking it out first?


I would hear a rumor about me, so I would go to the ones who I would assume would also have heard the rumor, and sure enough they had heard it, and passed it, without telling me, and in fact I was rumored about how bad i was for "chasing rumors" and the talk was that I should just submit instead of "chasing the rumor"

The bible is the problem with that though, for it clearly tells me NO! Ga 2:5


I have seen it in one OTVC group where someone but in a prayer request in a brother meeting for a person and then spend at least 15 minutes going over all that persons faults and all the places they need help. Of course the simple minded will discuss this among themselves.


I think everyone evil speaks to a point, and gossip's a little, but motive in the h makes the gossip worse than in a real Christian community where genuine concern is a motive, for the motive of the H is to bring subjection to the ministry rather than a blessing to the individual from God.

Because the authority of the H ministry is absolutely perverted and a non scriptural evil, they must use evil and spiritual perversion to keep that authority. It is like leveling the floors on a house with a bad foundation, they are fixing the obvious flaw, but not looking at the reason it sunk in the first place.

To be fair to them they are now hiding their evil, Church work is way down almost to real sin and people that leave so the forum's public exposure has perhaps foiled their modus of operation, but they haven't addressed any public thought of adding overseers to irrevocably fix the problem so they still plan on a resurrection of their filthy authority.

Sharing is such a nice word to justify plain old gossip.

(Gossip is idle talk or rumor, especially about the personal or private affairs of others)

Ive never seen a place more full of it then the H church.
And yes any thing I ever told a staff member in confidence
was public knowledge the next day.

Interesting comment Fred, of change in MO. Certainly we have noted change in attitude but am happy to hear your comment of change in MO.

Here is a paragraph from "How to Live a Spiritual Life" on speech and Judging. I think they are applicable to this thread. I may post one on gossip later.

16. Speech – don’t speak corrupt words but words that will edify (Eph 4:29); be careful not to talk to much (Pro 17:28); try not to be the center of all conversations but encourage others to be part of the conversation; realize that there are always two sides to ever story you are told (Pro 18:13, 17); don’t believe or repeat all that you are told (Pro 14:15); refuse to listen to or repeat gossip; don’t discuss the failings and faults of others; try to steer conversations toward spiritual things; walk away from sinful conversations (Mat 12:37).

24. Judging – God will judge you the way you judge others (Mat 7:2); when you see errors in others and are inclined to judge them examine yourself to see if you have this same or similar error in your life and put the judgment on yourself; keep a mental list of your greatest spiritual blunders and mistakes and when you see errors in others consider how much worse your errors have been; remember it is easier to see errors in others than it is to see errors in yourself; there is little profit in judging others but great profit in judging yourself (1Cor 11:31); keep a mental list of the greatest sins you have committed and when you are tempted to have contempt for the sins of others consider how wicked you were yourself before conversion; realize that things are not always as they seem and don’t judge things before you know both sides of the story (Pro 18:13, 17); don’t believe every report you hear and make judgments (Pro 14:15); judge not according to appearance (Joh 7:24); don’t judge the motives of others only God can see their heart.

Fred I want to commend you on what appears to be a change in the way you have been posted about the Holdeman's on this forum lately. I feel like your posts carry more weight when they are not filled with charges of voodoo, curses, and the such like. I have received much spiritual good on mediating on the above paragraph on Judging and I feel like it has helped me to be less judgmental and more like the spirit of Christ. I feel you would do you well to further adjust the way you post and apply the above principles on Judging to your posts and general attitude and want you to know I have been praying for you and others here on your forum.

Christian love and prayers
Qwerty

>>And yes any thing I ever told a staff member in confidence
was public knowledge the next day.<<

Kind of makes one wish for the sacrament of confession and the vow of silence that clergy hearing confessions have to make.

I'll never forget how stunned I was the first time I realized that it was a mistake to believe that personal matters shared in a meeting with the Holdeman clergy were not treated confidentially.

I was around 17 years of age at the time and was called into a meeting with the home congregation ministry and deaconry along with two visiting revival ministers to discuss upcoming career plans that would require formal education.

Aside from the fact that I was asked to step out of the room for a period of time while they had a private discussion before inviting me back in, I thought we had a good visit and went ahead with my career plans. (I actually was asked to move to a room several doors down to wait, but I stood by the door and eavesdropped on their conversation - I wish I hadn't).

Some time later one of my cousins confessed to me that she was surprised I had gone ahead with my plans because she had received details of the chat from her best friend, the daughter of one of the local deacons. According to her, I must have completely misunderstood or missed the direction of the ministry and deaconry.

That was the first, but not last time that I experienced confidential and personal information being shared outside of these private chats.

The older I become the more I develop an overwhelming sense of awe at how the whole Holdeman power infrastructure is developed to lead lambs willingly to the slaughter and even making them defend those systems.

LL mentioned that they can't unexpell? There have been cases where membership has been annulled. My husbands neice's membership annulled. I know of another case where an adult man's membership was annulled because it was determined that he hadn't been saved when he was baptized. So how does the Holy Spirit play into this? Wouldn't the Holy Spirit reveal if he was or wasn't? calledoutPTL

calledoutPTL

Yes the Holy Spirit would.
But since when did the H preachers
listen to the Holy Spirit?

yes PTL they will do that if the person declares that they were not saved or converted when they were baptised. If it was that person alone's fault. I have never seen it happen when what happened was because of faulty staff work. and that person would be rebaptised to be a member again. not unexpelled because of wrong doing on the part of others.

And the unexpelling thing ?
We went thro that with my dad just before he passed away.
As many of you may know my dad was X for years I was about 5 or 6 I think.
Still remember the night like it was last night.
I shiver just thinking about it.

Any way in the last few weeks of dad life several staff members
Thought he should reaccepted or possibly even enull is expelling.
They were the ones who had taken part in the whole thing years ago.
Dad didn’t feel like he wanted that though but they pushed and pushed.
And after a lot of prayer and support from one preacher at home.
Dad was able to die in peace and not an H member. But a member
of Gods family.

Its amazing how guilty some of those staff members were
they were willing to unexpell some one after 25 years.
But no one ever said sorry to dad.

Jeff, I am sorry to hear what your dad was put through by the Holdepreachers, but I am glad he was able to die in peace. It's interesting how suddenly after shunning someone for years, they do an about face and will hardly leave them alone to die peacefully.

>>Yes the Holy Spirit would. But since when did the H preachers listen to the Holy Spirit?<<

Excellent point, Jeff. I've always wondered about this as well. If, as they claim, they are the highest spiritual authority on the planet, how can they be bamboozled by those claiming to be saved/born again or whatever? Do their Spirit-o-meters malfunction occasionally?

It's so bloody obvious to almost everyone but themselves that they've got their heads so far up their a**e* (or perhaps each others), that they wouldn't recognise the Holy Spirit if it hit them like a Mack truck and certainly not if, as she is wont to do, as a still small voice, rushing wind, tongues of fire or even a dove.

LL. Depends who you are if they annual your membership. I know of one person whom they said they were going to leave things alone when this person said they hadn't been saved when they were baptized. This person only joined because of peer pressure. smile. calledoutPTL

The family I was from was so disfuncional I thought I
needed a place to belong . So I joined the H .

Does that constatute a conversion ???

.

Jeff's 3/19-2:27pm post.

This situation is disgusting. How can you condemn someone to hell and know for 25 years that you made a mistake and wait until their deathbed to admit you was wrong and try to undo it? And then even not apologize?
How can any H readers here say this man was expelled justly? This just proves that many excommunications are wrong.

GM
Remember there are two sides to every story.

Qwerty, wrote GM to remember there two sides on a story. So then if maybe a person thinks they were expelled justly, they may not have been? Lol Sorry my humor just got the best of me. LOL calledoutPTL