Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.
For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' "
So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
Find peace in your heart, delivered through faith in Jesus Christ and the Grace of God. Forgive yourself ALL your sins and always endeavour to keep His commands - in your heart first and then, by the Power of the Holy Spirit, in your words and deeds. EVERY day is a celebration of Christ's Sacrifice and EVERY day is a memorial to the Grace and Love of God!
Yes I can see it now,,Paul seems like a messenger of peace.It took a bit,, a few years but what I am learning is that I should not determine that anyone else is doing anything wrong in their walk with Christ rather I should just believe that,, that is the way their heart leans same with me. This scripture is all about give and take, and letting each person stand before God on their own now and on judgement day.
A lot of times I want things to be black and white,,right or wrong and that just is not helpful. It leads to contention.
This scripture is for anyone who applies bondage to a "certian way" of worshiping or showing Love for Christ.
What you write is at some point how people will have to consider. Of course the thing has to be perfected and not become a one true way in itself. The road is always shifting. There's a time for a thing, and there's a time not for that thing. When you consider your path, the world opens up to you and the rules for you become more liberal. No one can hold you to their beggarly rules or even to a higher rule. Nor can you walk in a beggarly rule once you've passed over it, but nor can you attain to a higher rule before you come to it.
These things are loud and clear in scriptures but people prefer religion.
And don't kid yourself Paris, there's big religion on this forum. Just look how people oppress the Holdemans and take away their salvation. It isn't an legitimate excuse they have done it to them......what's that to a new road?
Also found in: Financial, Acronyms, Idioms, Encyclopedia, Wikipedia, Hutchinson 0.01 sec.
big (bg)
adj. big·ger, big·gest
1. Of considerable size, number, quantity, magnitude, or extent; large. See Synonyms at large.
religion
Also found in: Legal, Acronyms, Idioms, Encyclopedia, Wikipedia, Hutchinson 0.02 sec.
re·li·gion (r-ljn)
n.
1.
a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
Oh yea!
Brent sometimes your insults tend to belittle yourself!
Paris, I have considered it a major miracle that Paul's writing has not been stomped out by organized religion, His "doctrine" basically is the golden rule in literary form.
So if you are not to judge any one for any thing , Then The holdies are ok with there lieing by omission about you ??
It is there way of serving God ??
Does God use the Holdies to distroy peoples lives ??
Does this give people like the Holdies , No acountability
to people and only to there God ??
Brent, do you see a difference between freedom and autonomy? Freedom being liberty to act within natural law and autonomy being free of natural law. Do you see that they are both "ways", both "religions"? As I see it, it's as unavoidable to "preach a way" as it is inevitable that the two "ways" will clash. Why is it "religion(bad sense)coming out" when CGCM is fingered as the autonomous entity it is? Was Paul preaching freedom or autonomy? You've lost me here, again.
I don't see religion being preached on this forum as much as I see a group of people who have been hurt by the very disregarding of Romans 14.
This forum and the people on it are an example of what happens when a church does what Fred suggested and has taken Paul's message out of their "religion".
What I am trying to understand is what sin are we committing when we don't let others stand before God, now and on judgement day? and we allow our judgements to cause dissent-ion contention and havoc, because that is what happens. We begin to separate.
"I don't see religion being preached on this forum as much as I see a group of people who have been hurt by the very disregarding of Romans 14."
Paris,
Yeah I see a lot of born drug addicted and hungry children hurting in the world to, and they're children! These are all adults on this forum, I presume with good jobs, nice houses, big cars, money in the bank, property owners, healthy beautiful children, and probably much more, so I don't buy your excuse.
I don't hold myself and my beliefs up as some pre-qualification for Gods grace.
Paris, could you expound on that a bit? If what you believe in isn't a "pre-qualification" (whatever that means) for God's grace, then what value are they to you?
***let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Hebrews 12:1b***
>>I don't hold myself and my beliefs up as some pre-qualification for Gods grace.<<
I think what Paris is saying is that she doesn’t hold herself and her beliefs up for someone else’s prequalification. Paris probably means that her values are for her and not necessarily for another person. Makes sense to me.
>>I don't hold myself and my beliefs up as some prequalification for Gods grace.<<
Thanks Kevin that is about exactly what I was going to post..let me repeat it..what I am saying is that I don't hold my beliefs up as the basis for someone else's relationship to be fulfilling or valid between them and God. I am learning that my values are between me and God. Any yours are between you and God.
">>Paris, if it can get you into that position, you're already in that position!
Brent<<
No I'm not and no it can't."
Paris,
Your responses are somewhat true with a good sign. But what I had in mind is a much bigger picture. We don't know what we'll do or won't do in a trying situation. This is where our real self comes out. I suppose we've all heard the expressions, I wouldn't be caught dead with that person, or I wouldn't do that for anything, or it'll be a cold day in hell before I'd do that, and then later they do it. But these are expressions that probably won't reveal very deep things in the heart but just shows how natural hypocrisy is. Paris, I would rate your quote, "No I'm not and no it can't." right along with these other expressions. But Paris, the sobering and fearful thing is a spiritual trial that shows a side of yourself you've never seen. And a serious seeker will have many of these revelation.
So Paris, in your March 26 8:20 PM post you wrote, "as it could put me in a position that this scripture warns about." I think your heart already understands you better. This is very good because your heart is already trying to show you this. One should think about what they said and study what they wrote. It can tell you a lot of things!!!
Thanks, Paris, but that doesn't really answer the question.
***let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Hebrews 12:1b***
>>I don't hold myself and my beliefs up as some prequalification for Gods grace.
Paris, could you expound on that a bit? If what you believe in isn't a "pre-qualification" (whatever that means) for God's grace, then what value are they to you?<<<
TR,
Above is your original question and I'm not sure I understand it. But if your getting at that their are some Essentials to the Christian faith that I would have to have to have as a basis for my faith and would not waiver on then yes their are some of those and here they are,
------------------------
Essential Doctrines of the Christian Faith
In his book, “Unmasking The Cults” - which addresses cults of Christianity (as defined by theology), Dr. Alan W. Gomes writes,
"Central doctrines" of the Christian faith are those doctrines that make the Christian faith Christian and not something else.
The Christian faith is a definite system of beliefs with definite content (Jude 3)
Certain Christian doctrines constitute the core of the faith. Central doctrines include the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the bodily resurrection, the atoning work of Christ on the cross, and salvation by grace through faith. These doctrines so comprise the essence of the Christian faith that to remove any of them is to make the belief system non-Christian.
Scripture teaches that the beliefs mentioned above are of central importance (e.g., Matt. 28:19; John 8:24; 1 Cor. 15; Eph. 2:8-10).
Because these central doctrines define the character of Christianity, one cannot be saved and deny these.
Central doctrines should not be confused with peripheral issues, about which Christians may legitimately disagree.
Peripheral (i.e. non-essential) doctrines include such issues as the timing of the tribulation, the method of baptism, or the structure of church government. For example, one can be wrong about the identity of "the spirits in prison" 1 Peter 3:19) or about the timing of the rapture and still go to heaven, but one cannot deny salvation by grace or the deity of Christ (John 8:24) and be saved.
All Christian denominations — whether Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Protestant — agree on the essential core. The relatively minor disagreements between genuinely Christian denominations, then, cannot be used to argue that there is no objectively recognized core of fundamental doctrine which constitutes the Christian faith.
-------------------------------
So I think that is what you were getting at. I also would wager that Paul would expect each Christian to have the same essentials. After that it's all just "peripheral (ie non-essential)" and I think that is what Paul is talking about in Romans 14 the,,, non essentials.
"Just look how people oppress the Holdemans and take away their salvation."
Brent, this seems a little off the wall. It's the Holdemans who judge and oppress and take away people's salvation.
This is the meaning of oppress:
Definition:
1. dominate harshly: to subject a person or a people to a harsh or cruel form of domination
2. inflict stress on: to be a source of worry, stress, or trouble to somebody
Who on this forum is oppressing a Holdeman? Who is depriving a one of them of their God-given rights in any way? Who on this forum is casting them out of their church and publicly stating that they have given them over to Satan? Which of us invites them to our homes and then sits them in a corner? That is oppressing and taking away salvation, and it isn't done against Holdemans by X's, but rather the other way around. By this I am not proclaiming my one true way or damning them, simply stating a fact. If I hampered them in living their life in some way because I disagreed with their religion, then I would be oppressing them. As it is I simply disagree with them. I cause them no grief.
when one tells the truth about the Holdies you are causing them much stress . For thay do not want to here the truth, unless You are prasing them for there unGodly ways .
Hitler only wanted you to prais him for what he was doing .
We all know he was of the devil .
Oh but he did not confess to be a christian .
I now get it .
I'm in a good mood tonight, and when I'm not I still watch my tongue though it may not appear that way sometimes. But I didn't leave the Holdemans off the hook. I was very conscience of it when I wrote that. I said it wasn't an legitimate excuse that the Holdeman had oppressed them, and then I said, what's their oppression to a new road.....that being on a new road that don't go through Holdeman territory. And besides the Holdemans have a legitimate government with ordained authority, which I've been over that enough already, and this forum don't claim to be a church, though it says "Church of God Forum" on its heading. So if everybody here is without a government, they better have their own authority, and what's good authority {which I'm sure there would be that claim} have to do with the authority of a said cult?
VS, generally speaking the exholdemans say the Holdemans aren't saved, their religion is from the pit of hell, they're a cult, they're stupid and blind, and on and on it goes. It's in the archives everywhere. If that isn't taking away their salvation, I don't know what is. If the exholdemans ain't taking away their salvation, then why do the exholdemans speak against their own salvation, because there's only one salvation. And if the Holdeman don't accept your salvation, shoot on down the road and let them work out the problem of two salvations. In the mean time what I was saying, don't hinder anyone in their religion.
The Christian faith is a definite system of beliefs with definite content (Jude 3)
Central doctrines include the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the bodily resurrection, the atoning work of Christ on the cross, and salvation by grace through faith. These doctrines so comprise the essence of the Christian faith that to remove any of them is to make the belief system non-Christian.
Scripture teaches that the beliefs mentioned above are of central importance (e.g., Matt. 28:19; John 8:24; 1 Cor. 15; Eph. 2:8-10).
So nothing outside these central doctrines matter, or are of any real value?
***let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Hebrews 12:1b***
Brent, I am so glad you were in a good mood. I really hate it when you get mad at me. But sometimes I can't keep from jerking your chain, even if it gets me in trouble. The part I was really contesting was "oppressing". I admit to having no regard whatsoever for their religion, but I wouldn't take anyone's salvation from them. It doesn't depend on having the right "religion". If we were going to be cast into hell for thinking the wrong thing, making a mistake, etc. then there wouldn't be any hope for anyone.
That is the same thing as saying nothing else has any value. I would definitely disagree with that. If that were true, the rest of the Bible would be a waste, and God is not wasteful.
***let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Hebrews 12:1b***
>>That is the same thing as saying nothing else has any value. I would definitely disagree with that. If that were true, the rest of the Bible would be a waste, and God is not wasteful.<<
TR,
How much value does Romans 14 above have for you? are you using it? or are you wasting it?
Are you using Ephesians 2: 8-10
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
-----
I agree there is a lot of good stuff in the Bible beyond the essentials. And we can apply it to our lives and probably have a better life here. But agian,,,,they are not ESSENTIAL to salvation.
This message has been edited by pariskat... on Mar 29, 2008 6:05 AM
Romans 14 is one of my favorite chapters and when I am tempted to think highly of my understanding/practice, I am reminded of it. It starts out saying we are to "Receive others... don't cast judgment on disputable matters" AND NOW NOTICE THIS; speaking of those who are weak in faith vs. those who may not be so picky about disputable matters, verse 3 gives instructions to each. One is not to despise, and the other is not to judge. We would do well to consider this and not knock those who hold themselves to life styles, beliefs or conduct that seem to be more then needed.
We have 2 quite vocal, plain lifestyle OTVC brothers here, (TR & Qwerty) who I believe demonstrate to us that they do not despise others... but I sometimes question whether they "judge" others ?? Saying that, I suppose I should point the same question at myself.
"1 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand." Romans 14:1-4 NKJ
But to summarize, I believe that it is wrong to judge others when you are committing willful sin yourself. The idea that Christians are to disregard doctrinal differences except for the points you brought up is hypocritical in and of itself, for it claims Christianity, but yet picks and chooses the points of the Word it deems to be necessary or not to salvation as much so as the beliefs it accuses, yet washes it’s hands in innocence as Pilate did.
My understanding is not that works will save a person, but that a saved person will produce a Godly life as exemplified by the Scriptures. When a person’s life does not portray a life that is God-fearing in all things, and they become a part of the world, yet claim Christianity because they claim to accept those points in your 3/28 6:23am post, they are as hypocritical as any they try to portray as hypocritical. They become those who profess Christ, but deny the power thereof. They become those who profess Christ, but are as the devils, for they “believe”, while producing/accepting works (including teachings) that are contrary to the Word of God. No teaching in the Scriptures ever implies that one can live an ungodly life and hold on to salvation… ever. ALL SIN MUST be repented of. One who does not turn away from and abhor their sinful natures, choosing rather to console them selves by choosing teachers (beliefs) according to the itching of their ears, does not repent of them, and is not of God. When these vices and bondages of the world are observed, and such vices and bondage are taught against by the truly God-fearing Christian, this is not judgment according to the flesh, but is rather righteous judgment. Fellowship with those of the world (i.e. with those who do not display a desire to turn from sin, whether small or great) is to be avoided, for such fellowship serves no purpose for neither the lost or the saved, and as such is only a detriment to the saved.
I do in fact believe that the true Christian is judged by the very words he speaks. I feel it, and it causes me to realize my great need of God, and how filthy my righteousness really is before God. I carry a Gospel I am in fact not worthy of. However, if I do not carry it in obedience, I cannot claim salvation.
Regarding what exactly the above consists of, consider this:
John 17:21
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
What does it all mean to you?
***let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Hebrews 12:1b***
Forgot to mention, note that the "small things" mentioned here were of such things as whether one eats meat or vegetables, not matters of a proud look, or fashions of the world... context maybe
***let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Hebrews 12:1b***
Hank
"We have 2 quite vocal, plain lifestyle OTVC brothers here, (TR & Qwerty) who I believe demonstrate to us that they do not despise others... but I sometimes question whether they "judge" others ??"
Here are some points compiled on Judging.
Judging – you are to judge false preachers (Mat 7:15-17) and false professors by their fruit (Mar 4:7,18,19); the spiritual person judges all things (1Cor 2:15); hypocrites with a beam in their eye are not to judge those with a mote in their eye (Mat 7:5); God will judge you with the same measure as you judge others (Mat 7:2); when you see errors and faults in others and are inclined to judge them examine yourself to see if you have this same or similar error in your life and put the judgment on yourself; keep a mental list of your greatest spiritual blunders and mistakes and when you see errors in others consider how much worse your errors have been; remember it is easier to see errors in others than it is to see errors in yourself; there is little profit in judging others but great profit in judging yourself (1Cor 11:31); keep a mental list of the greatest sins you have committed and when you are tempted judge with contempt for the sins of others consider how wicked you were yourself before conversion; realize that things are not always as they seem and don’t judge things before you know both sides of the what happened (Pro 18:13, 17); don’t believe every report you hear and make wrong judgments (Pro 14:15); don’t judge according to appearance (Joh 7:24); don’t judge the motives of others as only God can see their heart.
But to summarize, I believe that it is wrong to judge others when you are committing willful sin yourself.<<
TR,
It is wrong to judge others period.
I'm not going to go deep with this, with you,,I will go deep with it, with myself, and I will go as deep as the Holy Spirit is within me to see. I wish you the same.
This message has been edited by pariskat... on Mar 29, 2008 1:28 PM
Comments by TR,
>>But to summarize, I believe that it is wrong to judge others when you are committing willful sin yourself<<
>>When a person’s life does not portray a life that is God-fearing in all things,<<
>> ALL SIN MUST be repented of. One who does not turn away from and abhor their sinful natures, choosing rather to console them selves by choosing teachers (beliefs) according to the itching of their ears, does not repent of them, and is not of God.<<
A few questions for TR-
In the past year we have had a number of threads that pertain to H ministers, judging, wrongful exing, etc. I always noticed no holdeman came on and defended the ministers for their wrong. If we are to portray a God-fearing life in all things, and ALL sin must be repented of, where do you think those ministers stand before God, the ones that know they expelled wrongfully? And why, if and when they know they are wrong, will they not humble themselves and confess that wrong and make amends with that individual and/or the church? Do they console themselves that God will overlook their sin? And shall we as members not judge them? Is it only the staff that can judge the staff?
This message has been edited by GMman1 on Mar 29, 2008 3:05 PM
I notice the use of the words "we members", are you a Holdeman church member GM? Was that a slip of the tongue? Or what did you mean? I been reading the forum off and on while now and I thought you generally are against the church.
As far as this statement, there is a grain of truth in that, in that man (you & I) need not think it our purpose to judge others. However, I disagree with the implication that I feel from it, insofar as it is not a clear witness of obedience to Christ. Christians are to reject and reprove any, whether it be of oneself or another, inclination of man to follow/pursue anything that causes a spiritual leanness or even loss in/of spiritual life. This fact is well backed up by solid Scriptural teaching. This means if one does not heed admonishment against things of the world, fellowship cannot continue with this person. This does NOT mean that one who’s heart is open to receive admonishment/correction/direction should be shunned. There is a divine purpose for this, for by this obedience, sin appears exceedingly sinful, and all, including me, are reproved for any area in our lives that is not in pursuit of the mind of Christ.
Following that principle, it will appear to the worldly mind as though a Christian “places judgment” on individuals at times. It must be so, where this does not take place, true Christianity does not exist.
In the past year we have had a number of threads that pertain to H ministers, judging, wrongful exing, etc. I always noticed no holdeman came on and defended the ministers for their wrong. If we are to portray a God-fearing life in all things, and ALL sin must be repented of, where do you think those ministers stand before God, the ones that know they expelled wrongfully? And why, if and when they know they are wrong, will they not humble themselves and confess that wrong and make amends with that individual and/or the church? Do they console themselves that God will overlook their sin? And shall we as members not judge them? Is it only the staff that can judge the staff?
GM,
Basically all the ministers I know strive to act according to the principles that I just spoke to Paris about. I believe that in any case where ministers were dealing with an individual, there was a spiritual lack in that person’s life, which may or may not have including a lack of belief and/or a purposeful lack of understanding in the unified body of Christ. I understand that ministers of the CGCM are human like anyone else, and they may at times act too harshly, and at other times they are too lax. However, sometimes when they act according to Scriptural teaching, they are portrayed as harsh by those that are dealt with, for the reason that those who are dealt with have an underlying selfish motive rather than a sincere desire to crucify the flesh and follow the Lord.
For myself, I have encountered those ministers that I feel lack some understanding. However, they cannot indefinitely continue in this, for God always brings about His correction in one form or another. This correction to these ministers does not have to fit my personal opinion of how I think it should be done. In the meantime, I believe the grace of God allows me to be considerate of those in such positions, and where necessary, to entreat them whether they be truly seeking those things which are above. It is my place to have nothing to protect, and with this in mind, my life is open before them.
I feel at least most of the stories presented here are technically true, but the attempted implications are false.
***let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Hebrews 12:1b***
By TR,
>I feel at least most of the stories presented here are technically true, but the attempted implications are false.<
By Fred, taken from Questions for Q thread,
>>My kids are exed for no particular reason than that they quit going to the H,<<
>>Call up the local preachers and ask they or the local church, or the whoever did it, why they exed my boys?<<they really don't know why they they are exed, and in fact asked some of their ex piers why and could not get a real reason.
>>So if what Fred is saying is true, then how can you/we accuse him of false implications? Why would the accuser(ministers)have any more credibility than the accused?(exed)<<
This is what I have problems with, when a person doesn't even know what the charge is, why they were expelled. If I understand the Bible correctly,(and also the guidelines for exing in H conference decisions) there are only two reasons for expelling, that is that is has been determined that there is no more spiritual life in the individual, and for death sins.
By TR,
>>I understand that ministers of the CGCM are human like anyone else,<<
Agreed, so then why do we not hold them accountable for their mistakes but they hold us accountable for ours? Why do we hold their decisions in such high esteem, that they can do no wrong? No matter how much we disagree with their advice or actions we simply have to accept them?
This message has been edited by GMman1 on Apr 1, 2008 9:01 AM
1896 Conference Report
14
We believe in excommunicating offendng members for threefold reasons; namely, the first is to retain the CHurch in its purity; the second is to so reprove the transgressor that he may be ashamed; thirdly, that the Church may not be blasphemed by the world.
Grave sins, such as fornication, covetousness, idolatry, drunkeness, premeditated ying, and defrauding should be expelled without previous admonitions (I Cor. 5:11. Heretics should be dealt with as we read in Titus 3:10-11; and brother sins according to Matthew 18:15-17.
In Critical times, ecommunication should be dealt with in less haste and with painstaking care.
The expelling should be done in the power of the death of Jesus Christ. All Disobedience will be judged by the obedience of Jesus Christ; therefore we all with an earnest zeal should seek to raise the obedience o fChrist in our hearts, so as to fulfill our obedience by a true repentance and confession of our sins, that as much as possible all offenses may be removed in critical times as was the case with the Corinthians, that the disobedient may be judged in power through our obediencein Christ. Matt. 18:15-18; I Cor. 5
Principles of Faith book..
Authority of the Church and Excommunication
Last two paragraphs
The Church is a spiritual organization in the hands of God. It is to be kept pure and spotless. If a member becomes disobedient, or is to be overtaken n a fault, he should be restored by those who are spiritual (Cal. 6:1. In Matthew 18:15-17, Jesus explains how to go abou tto win a fallen or trespassing brother. If he doesn't amend after trying the threefold method of restoration, he is to be excluded or excommunicated from the congregation of saints. Or if a member commits a grave sin unto death (I John 5:16), such as commit murder, fornication, adultery, drunkenness, heresies, and such sins as exclude from teh kingdom of God he is to be excommunicated, that the old leaven be purged out to keep the Church from defilement and from bein evil spoken of. (All sins which separate from God are sins unto death, as can be understood from Rom. 1:29-32; I Cor. 6:9,10; Gal 5:19-21; II Tim. 3:2-5). Brotherly love must be exercised in disciplining, reporving, and finally in excommunicaiton, if that follows. All this is done to clenase and sae the so ul (II Thess. 3:15).
Excommunication has a threefold purpose -The first purpose is that the Church of God shall be kept pure from offenses members. The second purpose is to discipline the offender after other methods have failed, that he might become ovedient and be restored. The third purpose is that Church of God be not evil spoken of or blasphemed because of offending members being retained.
This is what I have problems with, when a person doesn't even know what the charge is, why they were expelled. If I understand the Bible correctly,(and also the guidelines for exing in H conference decisions) there are only two reasons for expelling, that is that is has been determined that there is no more spiritual life in the individual, and for death sins.
GM, I have never been in a meeting where someone was excommunicated, and the causes were not clearly stated. There has been a couple times when someone from the congregation asked for clarification as to the exact offense, but in no case was the cause not clearly known at the end of the meeting. This clarification/information is, at a minimum, available in every congregation. The only reason someone wouldn't know is because they were purposefully ignorant as to why.
By TR,
>>I understand that ministers of the CGCM are human like anyone else,<<
Agreed, so then why do we not hold them accountable for their mistakes but they hold us accountable for ours? Why do we hold their decisions in such high esteem, that they can do no wrong? No matter how much we disagree with their advice or actions we simply have to accept them?
They are held as accountable as I. Why would I ask more of them than myself? (Although more is asked of them many times, as they are watched much more closely, they probably wouldn't "get by" with some of the things I do)
***let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Hebrews 12:1b***
>>...why do we not hold them accountable for their mistakes but they hold us accountable for ours? Why do we hold their decisions in such high esteem, that they can do no wrong? No matter how much we disagree with their advice or actions we simply have to accept them?<<
GM: I've wondered that point many times myself. If they are human and make mistakes (and it is not infrequently that you will hear a Holdepreacher admit to being less than perfect in his personal life), why is it that when they are making decisions or judgements in their role as spiritual judge, jury and executioner, errmmm, I mean in their role as ministers and spiritual shepherds, that they somehow are more infallible than Benny Dyck the 16th over in the Vatican?
Furthermore, the fact (and it is a matter of public record) that they have been bamboozled (by their own admission) numerous times by both adult and adolescent 'converts' (converted from what to what is somewhat uncertain in many cases, but I digress) claiming 'new birth experiences' and seeking baptism into the Holdechurch casts further doubt upon their spiritual discernment. I mean, if their 'Spurit-o-Meters' can't detect the insincerity of such persons, why should anyone give two hoots about their assessment of anyone's spiritual life, or lack thereof?
"GM, I have never been in a meeting where someone was excommunicated, and the causes were not clearly stated. There has been a couple times when someone from the congregation asked for clarification as to the exact offense, but in no case was the cause not clearly known at the end of the meeting. This clarification/information is, at a minimum, available in every congregation. The only reason someone wouldn't know is because they were purposefully ignorant as to why."
If you disagree with the H staff . that is a sin .
Perhaps the only way thay can get you out of there circle
Is to Piss you off , to get you to show a simptom of
{ retalition ] A for sure way to porve your evel spirit
you poses . Then it is ax time .
NOW THE PROBLUM IS TAKEN CARE OF .
There is no other explination . than the OTVC .
The rest must burn .
They pick, and gossip, and lie until you finally simply can't stand it, and then you vent your frustration by slipping to anyone they have cultivated, they (the preachers) go around telling your friends that you refuse to "forgive' even as they are still picking and lying and plowing with your loved ones.
and then they finally have enough people that recognize your "unforgiveness" and then they kill you in their shrunken jesus name!
Praise holdegod for his mercies are great of the carnal lust of destroying families!
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