Qwerty, on the D&R thread you state that "I hold that....those that bear arms are void of the Spirit of Christ" hmmmmmmmmmmm

"And when the centurion, who stood there in front of Jesus, heard his cry and saw how he died, he said, "Surely this man was the Son of God" Mark 15:39

"The centurion heard of Jesus and sent some elders of the Jews to him, asking him to come and heal his servant. When they came to Jesus, they pleaded earnestly with him, "This man deserves to have you do this, because he loves our nation and has built our synagogue." So Jesus went with them. He was not far from the house when the centurion sent friends to say to him: "Lord, don't trouble yourself, for I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. That is why I did not even consider myself worthy to come to you. But say the word, and my servant will be healed. For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it." When Jesus heard this, he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd following him, he said, "I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel." Luke 7:3-9

Now, I don't believe in the idea of "Just War" and I'm not interested in Old Testament justifications for slaughter. I do believe that war can serve the political/cultural interests of a nation. And maybe my understanding is colored by my status as an Army veteran, divorced and remarried, stuggling sinner, striving to live closer to Christ. But you, Mr. Qwerty are most definitely off-base with your "void of the spirit" statement.

"And when the centurion, who stood there in front of Jesus, heard his cry and saw how he died, he said, "Surely this man was the Son of God" Mark 15:39<<

The centurion story has always amazed me. Like others since the arrest of Jesus, the centurion was a bystander, but rather than milling around he 'stood in front of Jesus'. Unlike the previous bystanders who mock Jesus, the centurion 'sees and believes' what they do not. At the death of Jesus the centurions remark,"Surely this man is the Son of God" up until this moment had remained unconfessed by any human being. The centurion is the first person in the Gospel to confess Jesus as the Son of God.

Brent R
"Now, I don't believe in the idea of "Just War" and I'm not interested in Old Testament justifications for slaughter. I do believe that war can serve the political/cultural interests of a nation. And maybe my understanding is colored by my status as an Army veteran, divorced and remarried, stuggling sinner, striving to live closer to Christ. But you, Mr. Qwerty are most definitely off-base with your "void of the spirit" statement."

I feel that in this new covenant time any person that is truly a Christian would never bear arms and go to war with the intent of taking the lives of other humans that have an eternal soul and most likely their death will plunge them into eternal torment.

Hence my statement that those that profess Christ and do go to war with the intend of killing the enemy are void of the Spirit of Christ and don't have real Bible salvation.

In your opinion, hmmmm, I take it for what it is worth, your opinion, not God's Word.

Brent R
"In your opinion, hmmmm, I take it for what it is worth, your opinion, not God's Word."

Yes that is correct, my opinion of what the Word of God teaches. That is all that we have, both you and I and all others here. An opinion of what the Word of God teaches.

<<< most likely their death will plunge them into eternal torment. >>>

So you are saying that a choice or action of one man will send another man into eternal torment. Laying aside for the moment, the travesty of justice which eternal torment inflicts on any man for any crime, I laugh at the idea that I hold the salvation of another man in my hand with my own choices. No wonder people despise the god of the Christians. I think perhaps the Christian god should get off the throne and let another more qualified take over. Sheesh, so much for God's sovereignty????? So if you pull the trigger, a man may burn for ever on the divine barbecue, but if you don't, he may be converted and live in glory??? Sheesh? Wow god, maybe you shouldn't let infantile children play with guns. Perhaps that is a criminal offense in the larger scope of the comos.

I should point out here, I only "blaspheme" the weak, petulant, revengeful god of the Christians who stands wringing his hands as all his babies screw up his creation and his plan, and then he tortures them to get even. But I stand in awe of the God of the Milky Way. John Calvin was a lot closer to the truth with his unconditional view of God's sovereignty than this Qwerty BS.

At his core, if you track it down relentlessly to its final conclusion, one reaches no opinion but this: The doctrine of man's unconditional free will is pure humanism, and its purpose is to dethrone God and put man in His place.

Mr. Qwerty, how about backing up your condemnation of others with a bit of Scripture?

Interesting to note that to strife to be Holy means a person hasn't obtained it yet. smile

The word says that if you break one law, you break all of them. Yikes!! That means you can't rely on law. So what do you rely on? The everlasting love, mercy and goodness of the Almighty God.

1 Cor 4: 4 says For I know nothing by myself:yet am I not hereby justified: but that he that judgeth me is the Lord. 5 Therefor judge nothing before the TIME, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the cousels of the HEARTS: and then shall every man have praise of God. Therefore, no one can say if a person is void of the Spirit. At least I would hate to do it. calledoutPTL

Qwerty,

Never mind, I guess the question wasn't worth your time.

No place is it noted that the centurions, guards or such had to change their occupations when they become believers. calledoutPTL

calledupPTL
"Therefore, no one can say if a person is void of the Spirit. At least I would hate to do it.

The Word tells us who is void of the Spirit, and it it those that commit sin.

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

calledoutPTL,

>>>No place is it noted that the centurions, guards or such had to change their occupations when they become believers.<<<

That is true. And it is also true that no place is it noted that they used their sword after they became believers. Shall we base our beliefs upon what the Bible does not say, or by what the Bible does say?

Romans 13:1-7 is the scripture most often referred to by many today maintaining justification for christians to bear arms, go to war, and fight for what their country thinks is right.

In Romans 13:1-7, the apostle Paul is instructing christians to be IN SUBJECTION/NON-RESISTANT to the governing authorities, and that's all Paul is instructing chrisians to do. ALL governing authorities/rulers (including the ones that the USA doesn't agree with) have been established by God, and are God's ministers/servants in the sense that He uses them and their sword for His own purpose. But NOWHERE does the apostle Paul in this text (or in any of his other writings) instruct christians to bear the sword FOR the governing authorities, or say that it is ok for them to do so. However, the apostle Paul DOES say.....

"For though we walk in the flesh, we do NOT war according to the flesh, for the weapons of our warfare are NOT of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses. We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God , and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ." (2 Cor. 10:3-5) NASB

"Put on the full armor of God, that you may be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. For our struggle is NOT against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places." (Eph. 6:11,12) NASB

The only sword we are instructed to bear is "the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God." (Eph. 6:17) NASB

My research has found that the teaching which says that it's ok for a Christian to bear arms and fight for what their country thinks is right is nothing more than a man made teaching which first started around 300 years after Christ during the reign of the Emperor Constantine when Church and State became one.

hmm..very interesting Jerry, it makes me think that in times of attacks on countries that we should fight with prayer.

I agree with that, Paris.

I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Tim. 2:1-4)

Paris,
That would work about as well as just praying and not fighting back some worthless thug that was trying to rape you. God gave each of us a brain and sometimes force is the only answer.

And Jerry, would you just watch your wife or anyone woman for that matter and just sit there and pray and not do anything physical? If so, you're a sick sick man and you have your head where the sun doesn't shine.

I'm not sure but I think the scripture is pointing out that we should not bear arms for the governing authorities, in which case it would be ok for a person to protect themselves or their family in a personal self defense way. that's the way I read it anyway.

>>>And Jerry, would you just watch your wife or anyone woman for that matter and just sit there and pray and not do anything physical? If so, you're a sick sick man and you have your head where the sun doesn't shine.<<<

What I would or would not do doesn't change what the word of God says, ding-a-ling. If you don't know what a ding-a-ling is, ask Chuck Berry.

Qwerty, read that verse again. It says God KNOWS THEIR HEART. Even though they sin, you don't know if they are crying out to God to help them. After all Paul says that he did things he didn't want to do and didn't do things he wanted do. I know what the word says about judging others. You say you can judge the works but saying the people on this forum is void of the spirit is judging the heart .I am not captilizing because I'm mad, just to emphazie something.

But you don't have enough to go on for me in the word. That is your opinion only. Like mine is. So if it is your opinion, why do you keep saying we are void of the spirit who disagree with you? smile calledoutPTL

Remus, I do believe that a person who lives by the sword, has a more a chance of dying by the sword. I know too many christians who seek God, ask him for guidance and who pray about every decision they make. But in your eyes, they are wrong because they are policemen.

In Russia some christians were having a secret church meeting. A soldier went inside and pulled a gun on them. He said anyone who is a christian and willing to die for their belief to go up front. All the others were to leave. Many left. Then he said, "Good." Now I know who are christians." I am a christian also. So they worshipped together. God knew the peoples' hearts. Man didn't. Man could have made a big mistake in this case. Still wish I could make the smiley faces. Every time I try to something crazy happens so I cancel out. smile. calledoutPTL

But you don't have enough to go on for me in the word. What I really meant is, you leave the biggest part of the wordd out about God's everlasting love and mercy. You leave out the part about love and forgiveness. You leave out the part about hope and restoration/redemption. calledoutPTL

calledoutPTL
"Qwerty, read that verse again. It says God KNOWS THEIR HEART. Even though they sin, you don't know if they are crying out to God to help them."

I didn't say that they are not crying out to God. I posted the scripture to show that those that say they "know him" but "keepeth not his commandments" are liars and the truth is not in them.

1Jo 2:3,4 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

"After all Paul says that he did things he didn't want to do and didn't do things he wanted do."

Rom 7 Paul is showing his experience under the law. In verse 19 is confesses to doing evil and in verse 23 he says he is captive to the law of sin. Under the law they didn't have victory over sin.
Rom 7:19,23 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do... But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

He then shows in Rom 8 his experience under Christ. In verse 2 his note that the law of Christ has made him free from the law of sin. Note in Rom 7 he was captive to the law of sin. Also where in Rom 7 he did evil in 3Joh 1:11 says that he that dos evil has not seen God. I maintain that clearly their is a difference between the experience in Rom 7 and Rom 8.
Rom 8:2,3 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
3Jo 1:11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

"I know what the word says about judging others. You say you can judge the works but saying the people on this forum is void of the spirit is judging the heart."

It is the Bible that judges others. I believe it is murder to go to war and kill some one and we know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
1Jo 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

"So if it is your opinion, why do you keep saying we are void of the spirit who disagree with you?"

Where did I say that. Please provide the quote and link to where it is.

calledoutPTL
"What I really meant is, you leave the biggest part of the wordd out about God's everlasting love and mercy. You leave out the part about love and forgiveness. You leave out the part about hope and restoration/redemption."

Not at all. I post over and over that if you have godly sorrow, repentance, and forsaking of sin there is mercy for all and every sin. So this is not something I leave out at all.

Jesus says that whatsoever is in the heart will come out. So what you think about all the time will be what you speak. Love or condemnation. Now I believe in repentance and making a change. The word says His love will draw us to Him. calledoutPTL

calledoutPTL
"Jesus says that whatsoever is in the heart will come out. So what you think about all the time will be what you speak. Love or condemnation."

Jesus was dealing with the Pharisees and there traditions where they wash their hands (Mat 15:2). So Jesus told them it "those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart" and he listed "evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies" (Mat 15:19) as the Pharisees hearts were full of "extortion and excess" and "all uncleanness" (Matt 23:25,27).

But I do agree that out of the mouth, or what we write, is what is in our hear. For example Christ had mercy on sinners (Joh 8:11) but harsh judgement for religious hypocrites (Matt 23:2-36). I am sure the Pharisees, whom Christ was consistently putting judgment on, considered Jesus to be judgmental. The sins that disliked there sins and didn't have a false profession would see his mercy and consider him very merciful.

I think we need to be balanced. We need show love and mercy and we need to show what the judgment the Bible has to say about those that are religious and have the profession of loving God "but in works they deny him, being... disobedient" (1Tim 1:6). People are going to meet the judgment on the last day when there will be on chance to change so they are much better off to meet it here first where they have a chance to have godly sorrow, repentance, and forsaking of sin thereby minding mercy and salvation.

"Now I believe in repentance and making a change."

I also strongly being in repentance and making a change but "not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father" (Mat 7:22). Christ will say to them "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Mat 7:22), and ask them "why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say" (Luk 6:46).

"The word says His love will draw us to Him."

Christ draws people by many ways. Some by fear as it was Christ that spoke "rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" (Mat 10:28) for the "fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom" (Pro 9:10).

"The grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men" and has taught more than just the love of God but has taught to all that they must "denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world" (Tit 2:11,12).

This same light that "lighteth every man that cometh into the world" (Joh 1:9) brings peace to some, but to many it brings "condemnation" as people reject the light and love "darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil" (Joh 3:19).

When the turn Bible standard of holy living is taught we will hear from those you have a "form of godliness, but denying the power thereof" (2Tim 3:5) to deliver from committing sin and hate the light because their "deeds were evil" we will hear the call, harsh, judgmental, condemnation, lack of love, unbalanced, legalistic, fanatical, and all manners of false charges and twisting of their words.

It was this way in the days of Jesus and we shouldn't expect it to be no different in this day. Religious people will continuously make excuses for low living and sin that they love to much to forsake, and they will plea for love and no judgment. But when the Gospel is brought out and the holy standard of "denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world" is taught quickly these religious people have no problem judging and condemning.

I agree with Brent's original post.

I don't think that Christianity should be altered in order to be made attractive to the world. I believe that Christ made Christianity very attractive, and we as humans detract from Christ's beauty. The clearest example of this is when someone claims to be holy- to be without sin- and openly casts judgment on others. I am no exception. I believe that honesty is the best policy- and a simple (to-the-point) question is best answered by a simple (basic) answer.

Qwerty- you are self-righteous, and your hypocrisy does not inspire me to be more like Christ- if you are indeed a follower of Christ. I don’t mind your anonymity; because you are in essence painting a larger picture than yourself by doing so. You are the essence and symbol of why many people are disillusioned, tired and repulsed by Christianity. The gospel you preach does not appeal to the sinner, the weary, and those with heavy burdens.

If you respond to this, my guess is that you will dissect it, and complain that I have not brought forth specific enough charges. If you cannot see what I mean, I cannot show you.

Qwerty- you are self-righteous, and your hypocrisy does not inspire me to be more like Christ- if you are indeed a follower of Christ. I don’t mind your anonymity; because you are in essence painting a larger picture than yourself by doing so. You are the essence and symbol of why many people are disillusioned, tired and repulsed by Christianity. The gospel you preach does not appeal to the sinner, the weary, and those with heavy burdens.

Joe, I agree. In fact you put into words what I have been thinking but could not find the (nice) words to express.

Have you ever thought of how some people inspire you to follow the teachings of Christ while others seem to cause you to want to run in the opposite direction?

Joe
"The clearest example of this is when someone claims to be holy- to be without sin- and openly casts judgment on others... Qwerty- you are self-righteous, and your hypocrisy does not inspire me to be more like Christ- if you are indeed a follower of Christ."

I understand this reaction Joe as at one time I felt the same way. I was a nominal "Christian" had a bad temper, smoked, read porn, and fell into "big" sins from time to time. My testimony was I was a sinner (present tense) saved by grace.

So when I first heard that Christ could empower a person to live a holy life free from sinful acts of disobedience I laughed, shook my head, mocked, and said cult!

I also felt that putting judgment on sin was hypocritical and lacking the love of Christ. Those that I meet and that claimed to not sin I truly thought they were deceived and pitied them.

But there was one thing that was different in me that many other people that profess to be saved yet continue to sin. I hated sinning, I hated falling in and out of sin. I wept over my sins, over my often failures. I cried and cried and cried, I rung my hands, and some how my heart never got seared to the point where I accepted that sin alright.

I despised the fact that I didn't have power over smoking and hide my habit from other Christians. I knew there was something wrong but I didn't know what it was.

It has been a long road from there to where I am now and there have been many lessons that I have learned the hard way. But I can truly tell you Joe that there is power in the blood to deliver and keep for sinning and I have found this power in Christ and have truly experienced his keeping grace.

"The gospel you preach does not appeal to the sinner, the weary, and those with heavy burdens."

The gospel I teach will appeal to those that hate sin and want to be free. Those that are weary with the bondage of sin and the heavy burden sin places on them. That they can be free will be good news (Gospel) to there ears. But to those that have allowed their heart to be seared and hardened to the point where they accept their sin and don't want to give it up or have a religious profession that they are unwilling to let go of -- the idea of being free from disobedience is repulsive to them.

"If you respond to this, my guess is that you will dissect it, and complain that I have not brought forth specific enough charges."

No I completely understand where you are coming and thank you for expressing your view with out making personal attacks. I respect you for that.

>>But there was one thing that was different in me that many other people that profess to be saved yet continue to sin. I hated sinning, I hated falling in and out of sin. I wept over my sins, over my often failures. I cried and cried and cried, I rung my hands, and some how my heart never got seared to the point where I accepted that sin alright.

I despised the fact that I didn't have power over smoking and hide my habit from other Christians. I knew there was something wrong but I didn't know what it was.<<



Qwerty, it sounds to me like you might have an addictive and impulsive personality. Rather than seeking psychiatric help, you’ve possibly fallen into another ditch. I think claiming all this Jesus stuff is just another vice for you.

>>>But there was one thing that was different in me that many other people that profess to be saved yet continue to sin. I hated sinning, I hated falling in and out of sin. I wept over my sins, over my often failures. I cried and cried and cried, I rung my hands, and some how my heart never got seared to the point where I accepted that sin alright.<<<


Qwerty, I think this statement should go on the "bragging" thread. Oh,,, but maybe your hands and knuckles are sore from wringing them so much and you can't start one.

Is it a sin to wring your hands so much that you can't start your own bragging thread and put your pride where it belongs? Or maybe you can't see well enough through all the tears to properly start the thread,,Opps I forgot your done crying and wringing your hands You've made it to eternal, internal and external saint hood. Can I get your autograph before your image appears on a frying pancake or tortilla chip or something holy like that?

>>Can I get your autograph before your image appears on a frying pancake or tortilla chip or something holy like that?<<



Honestly Paris, I think Amos is busy enough trying to figure out which vibrator is the most effective. Don’t make him start looking for Qwerty’s image on some grilled cheese sandwich.

Sorry Qwerty, it's just that I have never heard anyone talk so much about how they try so hard to be good. It boggles my mind. I have been around a lot of Christians and it isn't necessary to be so self focuses all the time. But hey more power to ya..if we go to Heaven in a heap we'll see who get to be on top.

paris
"Sorry Qwerty..."

I forgive you. They mocked Jesus too and the servant is not above the master.

"But hey more power to ya..if we go to Heaven in a heap we'll see who get to be on top."

I believe we will at get the same reward -- eternal life. No big I's and no little you's in heaven and really it should be that way down here also.

>>I forgive you.<<

thanks Qwerty. I didn't deserve it.

None of us do!