Disputes

--as the children of God we are called to be peacemakers (Mat 5:9)
Mat 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

--if you have a quarrel against any forgive as Christ forgave you (Col 3:13)
Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

--love bears, believes, hopes and endures all things (1Cor 13:7)
1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

--when trying to solve disputes take as much blame as you honestly can;

--forgive one another even as God forgiven you (Eph 4:32)
Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

--where ever there is strife and disputes there is carnality (1Cor 3:3)
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

--if you don’t forgive neither will God forgive you (Mar 11:26)
Mar 11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

--those that are proud in heart will cause strife (Pro 28:25)
Pro 28:25 He that is of a proud heart stirreth up strife:

--where there is contention there is pride (Pro 13:10)
Pro 13:10 Only by pride cometh contention:

--put away all evil speaking (Eph 4:31)
Eph 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamor, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

--forgive your brother seven times seventy (Mat 18:21,22)
Mat 18:21,22 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven

--you are to endeavor to keep unity and peace (Eph 4:3)
Eph 4:3 Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

--follow after the things that make for peace (Rom 14:19)
Rom 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

--sinners love to strive (Pro 17:19)
Pro 17:19 He loveth transgression that loveth strife:

--fools love to quarrel (Pro 20:3)
Pro 20:3 It is an honor for a man to cease from strife: but every fool will be meddling.

Should X forgive H who is asking X for forgiveness if H doesn't honestly think that H did anything to X that really needs forgiveness? What would X be forgiving H for? Would it be necessary for H to let X know what it was specifically that H is asking forgiveness for? Would it be a sin for H to ask X for forgiveness if H honestly didn't think that H did anything to X that truly needed forgiveness?

wonderinginthewilderness
"Should X forgive H who is asking X for forgiveness if H doesn't honestly think that H did anything to X that really needs forgiveness?"

Yes, if someone comes to you and they feel like they have done some that they need to ask forgiveness for by all means accept that and thank them for doing it.

"What would X be forgiving H for?"

Just as some people don't see that they have committed an offense others will not see that someone has committed an offense toward them. I think when some one asks you to forgive them you could say I didn't see any you did but thank for you asking and I accept that.

"Would it be necessary for H to let X know what it was specifically that H is asking forgiveness for?"

No I don't think so. I while back I listened to some gossip about some one which was none of my business and I should have told the other person that I didn't want to hear that. I feel that I had to got to the person and admit to listening to things about their private business that was none of my business. I didn't tell them what the things were but I feel I needed to do that to set a standard for my self so that I know if I do those things again that I will have to apologize.

"Would it be a sin for H to ask X for forgiveness if H honestly didn't think that H did anything to X that truly needed forgiveness?"

I won't say it would be a sin. It doesn't sound very good and I think you would have to give an example as one answer wouldn't fit all.

I think this is a great subject. There will be misunderstandings and disagreements, with spouse, children, parents, family, the brethren, ministers, business people, etc. This is an area where we have a change to show a what a real Christian testimony is.

I would love to hear principles that others have learned here and am willing to give my views, for what ever they are worth, on how to deal with difference disputes.

I when over my original post this morning and adding some things to it and am going to repost the updated version.

Disputes

--as the children of God you are called to be a peacemaker (Mat 5:9)

--do unto others as you would have them do unto you (Luk 6:31)

--if you have a quarrel against any forgive them even if they don't apologize for Christ forgave you and don't hold a grudge (Eph 4:32, Col 3:13)

--if you don't forgive neither will God forgive you (Mar 11:26)

--be ready to forgive your brother seven times seventy (Mat 18:21,22)

--follow after the things that make for peace (Rom 14:19)

--love bears, believes, hopes and endures all things (1Cor 4:7)

--you are to endeavor to keep unity and peace (Eph 4:3)

--try to defuse a dispute before it starts

--never feel like you have to win a dispute

--pray and remain claim and never raise your voice

--give room for each other to talk and don't be interruptive

--when trying to solve a dispute take as much blame as you honestly can

--don't make personal attacks or inflammatory statements

--if the others conduct is below the scriptures standards state that and if your conduct was below the scriptures standards admit it and apologize

--apologize if the other is offended even if you feel like you did nothing wrong

--if the other person is unreasonable and gets upset walk away from the dispute and go and pray

--if your feelings were hurt go and pray

--some disputes will not be able to be resolved and you can do is your best and leave the rest to Jesus

--those that are proud in heart will cause strife (Pro 28:25)

--whenever there is strife and contentious disputes there is carnality and pride with at least one of the people (Pro 13:10, 1Cor 3:3)

--fools and sinners enjoy strife and quarrels (Pro 17:19, Pro 20:3).

Qwerty, I think you are reading ?'s question backwards (if I understand him/her right).

The question is asked if someone (H) did something to another (X) and knew that something was done but maybe didn't see anything wrong with it but H just apologizes to appease X yet in reality has no remorse. Is it X's responsibility to then explain the hurt that H created so that H would see the severity of his/her actions and be able to truly repent?

I think you are reading the question as H doing something wrong and feeling the need to apologize but X doesn't see anything wrong but should forgive anyway. The question is just the opposite of this.

**And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.**

Tirone

"The question is asked if someone (H) did something to another (X) and knew that something was done but maybe didn't see anything wrong with it but H just apologizes to appease X yet in reality has no remorse. Is it X's responsibility to then explain the hurt that H created so that H would see the severity of his/her actions and be able to truly repent?"

If that can be done in peace with out causing a further dispute yes. But we also need to have thick skin. We don't want to give into a pity party, and we want to get above having our feelings hurt over just about any thing. I realize some people by disposition are more tender than others but this is a very rough world and we need to ask God to toughen us up.

May times a good thing to go and do when you have had your feelings hurt is go and read Martyrs Mirror. You abuse will seem very small compared to what the dear ones when though in MM.

I heard of a minister that when he counsels people having troubles he would first have them look at a picture of a person that had been eaten by cancer. After that peoples problems got quite a bit smaller.

1Pe 2:20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

I feel that I had to got to the person and admit to listening to think about there private business that was none of my business.

You know qwerty, that is the fruit of a Christian experience in my opinion.

I had a man one time that was working for me, and after watching him a while, I knew he was a Christian.

I entrusted him with some money for cash purchases, and was planning on entrusting him with something bigger, and he confessed to me that he had dipped into my money when getting into a "pinch". I just laughed at him. He simply couldn't understand why I trusted him., since he felt himself to be such a scoundrel.

I cried when he quit me, what a great guy he was.

To give the holdies credit, during revival season, many of them would come to me and "confess" to what they did to us that year, a couple of them I knew would have to come in fact I told my wife, "so and so is doing such and such to us, just wait till this fall, and he will come to us and confess and ask forgiveness".



That kinda thing is easy for me to forgive, but the people that motivated his actions through their designs, and his acceptance of their evil report, well that is another thing, I have a hard time "forgiving" people that plan on hurting me in the future, and refuse to repent when confronted.

I simply will not have anything to do with them.

When dealing with disputes in there I would talk to someone and then when they told me about the evil someone did, I would ask, is it okay If I quote you to them?

This really backfired on a big thing that Will Stoppel did, for he was accusing Don Millsap of something very carnal. I totally believed Will to being honest, but I told will i simply cannot accept that report without verifying it, is it okay if I get a witness and ask Don about it?

SO I called Merlin Koehn in there to "witness" my interrogation, and don really tried to squirm out of it, even feigning to have a heart attack, but he finally confessed. But it scared the socks out of Merlin, and I couldn't bring a charge against Don, for the h worships the preachers as Gods, instead of ministers, so his actions are immune under their perverted doctrine of ministerial unaccountability.



Will and I were both slated for death that day, by the "ministry' it was just a question of timing so they got out their microscopes and trained them on us, and everything we did was subject to church gossip, that started from the ministry.

Eternal life is great, but persecution arising from the "kingdom of god" sucks.

Now i am eternally lost and destined to the eternal flames simply because I maneuvered myself to not be subject to the minters evil designs on my life.


I can see Jesus at the judgment

"son, why did you leave only depository of pure truth on earth?"

I will try to explain what happened but when I do he will accuse me of being "hard" or not forgiving, or perhaps of a foreign spirit.


and I will be speechless, and he will condemn me to the eternal flames, (or the purgatorial ones in Scotts opinion) ()

I don't think so!

Justice at the judgment will mean perfect tribunal! yea I forgive those clowns, but want nothing to do with them except to expose their modus operandi.

Fred
"...but want nothing to do with them except to expose their modus operandi."

Make sure you do it with love. I have seen people just as bad and in some cases worse than those they are driven to expose. There is wisdom in those words "forgive and forget".

I think one area you need help in is the words and terms you use when exposing those you feel have wronged you. Some of your past rants have made you look like you had a screw or two loose and some your language has been very inflammatory and in some cases gutter talk which should never come out of the mouth of a Christian. You have been ranting much less lately but you post on the cj was disgusting and unacceptable talk for a Christian.

I know I noted these things before, and I know I need lots help myself but some times its good to get feedback from others as it seems over and over we are the last ones to see our own needs and errors, at least that is way I have found it to be with myself. Plus I know you are tough skinned and can take it with out be offended.

I know you feel like you have been wronged but still we need to have the love of God reigning in our soul for those who wrong us as you never know when God can work on their heart and show them their wrongs.

Also I don't know if it is a good practice to be noting the names of people that you feel like have wronged you. Perhaps it would be better if you just note what happened with out putting the peoples names in there.

It will be easier for them to come to make things right if they haven't heard from many different sources that you have posted their names and "slandered" them on the internet. Naming them out could even hinder them from getting the help they need to make it to heaven which would include them making things right with you. So in exposing them by name you may end up harming them eternally. Something to think about.

qwerty, it is not slander if it is true, I name the names because they called me a liar on the past if I don't and that simply makes it easier to deal with, I have better things to do that be accused of lying verify the fact my friend. (if you care)



I don't want retribution, neither do I not forgive, these people plan on doing what they did to me, they plan on doing it again to the next guy, because they honestly think their way is the true way, they are not ashamed of manipulating and lying and using ministerial authority to discipline their elders by, if the greater good is the glory of their idolatrous lying wonder and retaining their power.


if they confessed and forsake I would cover their past transgressions and forget them, but since they feel it their sacred duty to punish me and mine for calling their bluff, the least I can do is expose them!

think one area you need help in is the words and terms you use when exposing those you feel have wronged you. Some of your past rants have made you look like you had a screw or two loose and some your language has been very inflammatory and in some cases gutter talk which should never come out of the mouth of a Christian. You have been ranting much less lately but you post on the cj was disgusting and unacceptable talk for a Christian.

Fred, I agree with this. While I do not agree with the wrongs, your rants take away from the creditability of your assertions.

Bein's as how I'd not been here for quite some time, I didn't realize we needed them log-ins here. Anyway, I'm kind of wonderin' who this Qwerty guy is? I was readin' the forum and catchin' up on things and keep noticin' that he's doin' an awful lot of posting and none of it has any connection to them Holdermans, or Holdies, as y'all call 'em. What's the deal with him? He spouts more hot air than the back end of a cow that's gotten into some spoiled silage.

Fred
"qwerty, it is not slander if it is true"

Well what may be clear and true to you may not be clear and true to others and to the court of law. What is not malicious and false to you may be seen as malicious and could possibly be not true.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/slander
a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report: a slander against his good name.

"I name the names because they called me a liar on the past if I don't and that simply makes it easier to deal with, I have better things to do that be accused of lying verify the fact my friend."

Yes, in trouble if you do and in trouble if you don't. What I would try to do is look at from both sides. They may not feel like they did you wrong. And then they would see it as malicious false and defamatory.

"I would cover their past transgressions and forget them, but since they feel it their sacred duty to punish me and mine for calling their bluff, the least I can do is expose them!"

Well I can't see you heart but the Lord knows all about this. I know I now regret some of the things I have said about people openly. At the time I felt the things were true and that they had done me wrong but now I can just see that if they were told those things, and I can only expect there were, it would hinder the healing process that the Lords wants. I think as as Christ works to reconcile the world to himself we should also work to reconcile those that we think have done us wrong and we should be careful we are not doing things that will hinder that.

Posting peoples sins and faults on the Internet where they can Google up their name to see what people are posting about them can come back to bite you and is not going to help them be reconciled to you. We can warn people about the a movement that has done us wrong with out making it personal and noting names and detailing experiences.

Some times we just have to move on.

Sanitizer
"...your rants take away from the creditability of your assertions."

This is a point I have made a number of times to Fred.

Aside from this issue I think this is some thing we can all learn from. We have to all be careful what we say and how we talk as Christians so our conversation will not take away for the creditability of our Christian testimony.

Uncle Jeb, now that's language I can understand!

Aww you guys you don't like it if I don't rant and rave, but the forum dies if I don't let them have it occasionally!


qwerty forgiveness is one thing, and I love it okay? I forgive them that they are still continuing to fornicate my good name and family, but fornicate they intend and will continue till the resurrection, so lets just call it what it is my friend, for me to go back to there is a willful transgression on my part have you ever heard that term? , so to be not picked on by them I have to sin, it simply is not worth it.

But qwerty, I really do not care what anyone thinks of me, I am a fairly happy guy, with a nice job, a nice pile, and a nice family they tried to wreck.

Nobody is going to point their accusing fingers at me at the judgment and say i didn't warn them of the holderegieme of fornicating spiritual idolatry.

But I will try to tone down my remarks for your sacred ears okay?

bawar 1Pe 3:15* But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

Fred, As for me it has nothing to do with sacred ears. I just known that I almost wrote what you were saying off because of the language and tone it was couched in.

Fred
"But I will try to tone down my remarks for your sacred ears okay?"

Thanks! I was thinking more of you pleasing the Lord and not looking like a quack. Myself I was a street person for years, been around the block quite a few times, and in and out more than I would like to admit so there is not much I haven't heard.

actually believe it or not, I am in more conflict resolution than anyone I know of, it is the outcome of landlording,

but qwerty, to be perfectly honest, I have tried to "tone down" the rhetoric since you have found a way to say it nicely although it has been a while and i forgot how you did it, but my culture doesn't condemn my vocabulary, when I say it I say it as to the Lord in Honor of Him and to further His cause, I suppose that you and the sanitizer have picked that up or you would already have written me off as hopelessly lost.

I suppose that you and the sanitizer have picked that up or you would already have written me off as hopelessly lost.

Actually, Fred I have not written you off. I would agree with a lot of what you say. Especially the part of there being almost no way to hold the H ministry accountable for their misdeeds. One thing we need to remember in this, that when it is all said and done, God has the true score and He will see that all is fair.