Qwerty; you wrote the following March 29/08; 9:07 AM, "Questions for Qwerty" thread.

"Most people that profess their group is the OTVC would exclude all other groups of fellowships. This is not a teaching that I can conscientiously agree with. I do feel like the new testament church held OTVC status and it would apply to them but I would hold that the church is in the wilderness (Rev 12:5,14) and hence no group can claim that status."

You made the above interesting comment about the church being in the wilderness; the context I understand from you is that you are referring to the visible local churches. I understand that the scriptures teach that the "real true church", being Christ and those who who "BELIEVE", is never hidden, is very much alive and always accessible.

So, what do you see happening, or what should we seek to do to bring the church out of the "wilderness" ? Or, what prophetic interpretation do you see in this, that applies to the end times ?

Hank, I believe in the OTVC. It is the believers in any denomination. They are visible by the fruit of the spirit. They live it as well as talk it. Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling: 5;One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6; One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Most of us on the forum have the same Father, the same Holy spirit, and baptisism was on the blood of Jesus and what He did for us on the cross. Then man with law comes and tries to decide who/which is right. Started back in 1 Cor3:1-11. (Actually I think you and I agree on this.) smile calledoutPTL

No question PTL; we agree on this; and in my mind they too are very much visible. However, Qwerty has some other view that interests me. Either, he is referring prophetically to the "wilderness" as it applies to the end times... or he sees some "visible organization" appearing, similar to OTVC (at the exclusion of all others) that some have promoted in the past.

"The Kingdom of God is..." Jesus did not bring a church message but a Kingdom message. The church teaches the savior part well but leaves off the part that He established a Kingdom on earth. Or should that be re-established? Once the Church stops teaching self and starts teaching the Kingdom it will than have the right message. Look at what our Lord told us to preach. Definitely not us/self, which is what most churches do. Not preach to add so we can add, but to enter in. One of the keys that Jesus gave was the right message.



"What is false doctrine? - To deny or ignore the cross."

Vine
""The Kingdom of God is..." Jesus did not bring a church message but a Kingdom message."

The kingdom and the church are the same thing. You get are "translated us into the kingdom of the Son" when you are delivered "out of the power of darkness" (Col 1:13) and you are added to the church when you are saved "the Lord added to them day by day those that were saved" (Act 2:47 ASV).

This kingdom that was spoken of in Daniel "shall never be destroyed" (Dan 2:44) is the same as the church which "the gates of hell shall not prevail against" (Mat 16:18).

"The church teaches the savior part well but leaves off the part that He established a Kingdom on earth."

I think the false church leaves this off but his true people will be teaching the kingdom/church message that delivers from the power of sin that holds most professing people in bondage to sinning and repenting. This really is one of the main lacks. No wonder we have some many sects and a good number of very hurtful ones when the people for the most case are not even reached the level of carnal (1Cor 3:1) but are still spiritual dead in sins and trespasses (Eph 2:1).

"Once the Church stops teaching self and starts teaching the Kingdom it will than have the right message."

I think it is more than just getting the message right intellectually there is some wrong with the people hearts. That is where the change needs to be made. Then as Christ said "if any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine" (Joh 7:17). So this is the problem. People are not doing his will which is to "go and sin no more" (Joh 8:11).

"Definitely not us/self, which is what most churches do."

Very true! Paul said "we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord" (2Cor 4:5).

Hank
"I understand that the scriptures teach that the "real true church", being Christ and those who who "BELIEVE", is never hidden, is very much alive and always accessible."

Personally I believe that what we see now is the great prostitute that is spiritually drunk with the blood of the saints.

Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet colored beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

In the above scripture this is what I consider a good description of RC, COE, and all the protestant sects.

Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

Here true Christians are instructed to "come out of her" and it gives the reasons.

That you will not be "partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues", and it tells us that this false church is fallen and "is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird".

Now there is another woman in the book or revelation that is direct opposite of this great prostitute.

Rev 12:1,2 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

In the same chapter we see this woman fleeing into the wilderness.

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

This is repeated also in vs 14.

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Now what the 1270 days or 3.5 times mean I don't know. Where the wilderness is I don't know either other that to say the great prostitute is also in the wilderness (Rev 17:3).

Most Protestant commentators at the time of the reformation taught that the woman is the church, the dragon is the Heathen Roman empire and the beast which got it power from the dragon is the Roman Catholic (RC) empire and the image to the beast is all the false sects that came out of the RC empire.

The SDA teach this, the JW's teach a difference version of this and most OTVC's hold some kind of a modified view of this. Adam Clarke in his commentary brings this out also.

"You made the above interesting comment about the church being in the wilderness; the context I understand from you is that you are referring to the visible local churches."

I don't know what the wilderness is and I don't know what the 1260 days and 3.5 times are. My only point was if you take a historical view of the bood of revelation the woman or church is in the wilderness.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation#Historicist_view>

"So, what do you see happening, or what should we seek to do to bring the church out of the "wilderness" ? Or, what prophetic interpretation do you see in this, that applies to the end times ?"

I don't know. All I know is we need to preach Christ and his kingdom not "our church". We need to teach primarily 1) loving God with all our heart which I feel like is the message of holiness of heart (living completely free from committing sin) and 2) a soul burden to reach the lost which is loving your neighbor as your self. These are the two greatest commandments.

Part of Revelation is what took place in heaven which is past, and part in present, and some in the future. Since I believe in the rapture and the seven years of tribulation, your explanation is unclear to me. But that's okay. Not everyone believes that. It isn't a salvation issue. calledoutPTL

.

calledoutPTL
"Part of Revelation is what took place in heaven which is past, and part in present, and some in the future. Since I believe in the rapture and the seven years of tribulation, your explanation is unclear to me."

There are 4 main systems in which each holds and different interpret on the book of revelation. Pre-millennial dispensationism, post-millennial, a-millennial, and Preterist.

Pre-millennial has most of revelation happening in the future during the 7 years of tribulation and the battle of Armageddon that follows. This is the most popular view. The Pre means they believe in the coming for Christ before the millennium. There is historical pre-millennial but it is very similar.

A-millennial is the view that most of the Protestant reformers held and holds that revelation a historical account in symbolic language of the church age from the time of Christ to now. And A means no in Latin as this view doesn't believe in a literal 1000 year reign.

Post-millennial is a view that was very popular during the 1800 and held by people like Finny and held that there was a literal 1000 year reign of peace on earth that they with there were working to bring about. The post means that they expected a post or after the 1000 year reign coming of Christ.

Preterist is a view this is becoming more common today and it holds that revelation is symbolic and for the most part happened in the first century.

So the view that I was posting about is a-millennial and holds that the book of revelation is a history of the church. The dragon is the roman empire that was reigning when Jesus was born. The beast is the Roman Catholic system that was given its power by the roman empire. Then the image to the beast was all the false sects that broke off of the Roman Catholic system.

You can read about these 4 schools of interptretation in wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation#Schools_of_interpretation

Post-mill, a-mill, Preterist view:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_eschatology#Kingdom_of_God:_Non-literal_Millennial_views

Pre-mill dispen, pre-mill historical, post-mill, a-mill:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_eschatology#Kingdom_of_God:_Literal_Millennial_views

Here is a chart showing 3 views (They are showing pre-tribulation and post-tribulation and not mid-trib? which I would just put together as pre-millennial dispensationism. The other view historical pre-millennialism they are not showing?).


I think this will help you a some.

I personally tend to be a pan-millennialist and think it will all pan out in the end. No matter what happens if we are not living a holy sin free life what time and eternity holds for us will not be good so I feel like the most important things are the 2 greatest commandments.

Qwerty, "The kingdom and the church are the same thing."

No Sir, No they are not. Start with the Lords prayer, "Thy Kingdom come... on earth as it is in heaven"

read His opening of His ministry, and the Sermon on the mount.

He is a King and yet had no place to...

Look at the exchange before the cross... "My Kingdom is not of this world"

To be a King you need a Kingdom. Was He not King before the church?

The church is His bride, not His Kingdom.

Vine
"No Sir, No they are not. Start with the Lords prayer, "Thy Kingdom come... on earth as it is in heaven""

Well he already "set up a kingdom", it was established in the days of the kingdom of Rome (Dan 2:44). The old covenant law was until John and then the kingdom of heaven was preached and and "every man presseth into it" (Luk 16:16). It came in power on the day of Pentecost and as Jesus said "some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power" (Mak 9:1). Either those people are still living, which we all know they are dead, or the kingdom is here.

"Look at the exchange before the cross... "My Kingdom is not of this world"... To be a King you need a Kingdom. Was He not King before the church?"

The kingdom of God is not meat and drink as an earthly kingdom but it is "righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost" (Rom 14:17). This kingdom that is a spiritual kingdom and he has "made us kings and priests unto God" and we "shall reign in life" over sin and by the grace of God we don't "let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts" (Rom 6:12).


When we are saved we are delievered from the kingdom of darkness and translated us "into the kingdom of his dear Son" (Col 1:13). This happens at salvation and is the same operation as being "added to the church" (Mat 16:18). This church they were added it is not a sect with a sect book but the church of God the bride of Christ and the names are added to the book of life.

"The church is His bride, not His Kingdom"

The church, his bride, his body, kingdom of God, kingdom of heaven, and kingdom of his Son, are all the same thing. If they are not I would like to know what the difference between the kingdom and the church is and see the supported with some chapter and verse.

Thank you Qwerty, you single handed-ly proved that the Kingdom is here now. And that we are Kings, seeing that we are the sons and daughters of God. That explains the title of King of Kings. In so doing you have proved that the Holdeman's and many others have misunderstood the message. But to link church membership to being in the Kingdom is to take many thoughts and make them fit. If that is so than you should have no trouble reversing that and proving church membership puts you in the Kingdom. Which would mean that the Holdemans have it right and many need to repent and return to her.

(Would anyone care to comment on that before we continue?)

Vine
"But to link church membership to being in the Kingdom is to take many thoughts and make them fit."

Church membership not sect membership puts you in the kingdom and the church. Sect membership is non-scriptural and is something they didn't known anything about in the new testament time.

"If that is so than you should have no trouble reversing that and proving church membership puts you in the Kingdom."

Membership in the church does put you in the kingdom. That was my point and I posted a number of scriptures that supports that position, but I didn't say sect membership. The Holdeman membership is sect membership which is unscriptural and an invention that the Bible knows nothing of save perhaps in the book or Revelation in the description of the false church.

I posted a number of questions to you and you passed so many of them by. Do you agree that the church (not sect) of God and the kingdom of God are both the same thing and to be in the church (not a sect) of God via salvation is the same as being in the kingdom of God?

First off, If you say the church and the Kingdom of God are the same, then you won't mind pointing it out by name. What is the name of that true church? The problem with that is that for the Kingdom and church to be the same that would mean that the Kingdom message would be somewhat muddied with untruth, or am I missing that the goats are still in the church?

Second, take a look at what the apostles went around preaching, Acts 8:12, 19:8, 28:23, it's impossible to substitute "church" for "kingdom" in such passages. Unless you mean "Jesus" as the church, but than what would one do with the bride talk?

One other thing, 2 parts of the same Kingdom, the invisible, where God is and Jesus now sits on the throne, called Kingdom of Heaven. and the Visible, the Kingdom on earth, the one God gave us dominion over. Are you saying there are two true churches?

I have to hand it to you though, finding a scripture of a concept foreign to Jesus is much like disproving a fake rumor in the church. It's good to be challenged to look at the forum as an exchange of ideas.

Lastly, here is something that might be worth reading:

Linguistic Meaning of the term Kingdom
The primary meaning of malkuth (Hebrew) and basileia (Greek) is the authority, reign, or rule of a king. The territory, subjects, and operations of the Kingdom are secondary meanings.

The kingdom of God is the sphere of God's rule (cf. Psalm 22:28). Yet fallen man participates in the universal rebellion against God and His authority (1 John 5:19, Revelation 11:17-18). By faith and obedience man turns from his rebellion, is regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and becomes a part of the Kingdom and its operation. Though human participation in the Kingdom is voluntary, God's kingdom is present, whether or not people recognize and accept it.

The Kingdom of God in the Old Testament
"Kingdom of the Lord" occurs once in the Old Testament: malkuth Yahweh (1 Chronicles 28:5). There are of course many occurrences of "kingdom" for earthly territory or domain. "Dominion" or "rule" is occasionally the translation for the idea of God's authority and power (Psalms 22:28, 45:6, 66:7, 103:19, 145:11-13; 1 Chronicles 17:14, 29:11). Throughout the Old Testament (but especially in the Psalms and the prophets) the idea of God as King ruling over His creation and over Israel is clearly expressed. Although God's immediate kingship is evident in the Old Testament, there is also a strong emphasis on a future fulfillment of God's universal rule. This anticipation often coincides with messianic expectations associated with both the first and second advents (cf. Isaiah 9:6-7, 11:1-12, 24:21-23, 45:22-23; Zechariah 14:9). Daniel 4:34 describes God's rule as "an everlasting dominion" and a "kingdom [that] is from generation to generation."

The Kingdom in the New Testament
While the idea of the universal rule of God permeates the Old Testament, the kingdom of God takes on additional meaning and importance in the teaching and ministry of Jesus. The ministry of Jesus begins with the proclamation, "The kingdom is at hand" (Matthew 3:2, 4:17; Mark 1:15). Although Jesus never specifically defined the Kingdom, He illustrated it through parables (Matthew 13; Mark 4) and demonstrated its power in His ministry. He instructed His disciples to proclaim the Kingdom as He sent them out in missionary ministry (Matthew 10:7; Luke 9:2, 10:9, 10:11). Every description of Jesus Christ as Lord is a reminder that Christ is the ruler of the kingdom of God.

From the various contexts of the word kingdom in the Gospels, the rule of God is seen as (1) a present realm or sphere into which people are entering now and (2) a future apocalyptic order into which the righteous will enter at the end of the age.

Thus the kingdom of God is both a present reality and a promise of a future fulfillment. The Kingdom is already present on earth in the person and acts of Jesus, by the Holy Spirit. Yet the fullness of the Kingdom awaits a final apocalyptic arrival at the end of this age (Matthew 24:27, 30-31; Luke 21:27-31).

The State of the Kingdom Now
Just as some who followed Jesus "thought that the kingdom should immediately appear" (Luke 19:11), some today are expecting Christians to usher in the fullness of the Kingdom in an earthly rule. When the Pharisees asked Jesus at what time the kingdom of God would come, he answered, "The kingdom of God is within [among] you" (Luke 17:21). The restored reign of God was soon to be a reality, for the One who was to reclaim the usurped territory was on earth to accomplish His work of redemption. The overthrow of Satan's dominion had already begun. Today, the redemptive work is complete, yet the reality of the ultimate Kingdom is qualified. In the present age, the power of the Kingdom does not halt the aging or death process. Though God does overrule natural laws by sovereign act or in response to the prayer and faith of believers, the Kingdom still works through fallible human beings. The Church will not finally change the world prior to the Second Coming. Righteous political and social actions are important, but the main thrust of the Kingdom is the spiritual transformation of individuals who make up the body of Christ. The millennium and the ultimate expression of the Kingdom will not come without the physical return of Jesus Christ to the earth (Luke 21:31). The Kingdom is already present, but not yet complete. It is both present and future.

The interim between the first and second advents of Christ (the present age) is marked by violent confrontation between the power of the Kingdom and the power that dominates the world in this present age. Divine conflict with the demonic characterizes the present era. It is the era of conflict as well as the era of the Spirit. Believers must engage the forces of darkness (Ephesians 6:12).

We are not guaranteed total, instant success in this conflict. Each victory over sickness, sin, oppression, or the demonic is a reminder of the present power of the Kingdom and of the final victory to come, a victory made sure by the Resurrection. We are called to wage war against sickness, but we face the reality that not everyone we pray for gets well. We are in harmony with the purposes of God in this age as we move against sickness in every way possible; we rejoice at notable victories but are not bewildered when some are not healed. We do not surrender to the evil and the struggles of the present order; but neither do we rage against God or blame others when every request is not granted. The essence of the Spirit-energized life is to move against the forces of darkness, fully aware that total deliverance is always possible but does not come immediately in every instance (cf. Romans 8:18-23). Some of the heroes of faith (Hebrews 11; Acts 12:2; 2 Corinthians 11:23-12:10) suffered or died, having their deliverance deferred to a future time. We do not give in to the ravages of evil; we do not give up the fight. As instruments of the Kingdom in this present age, we faithfully battle against evil and suffering.

The Holy Spirit and the Kingdom of God
As Pentecostals we recognize the role of the Holy Spirit in the inauguration and on-going ministry of the Kingdom. At His baptism, Jesus was anointed with the Spirit (Matthew 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22). His acts of power, energized by God's Spirit, brought healing to the sick and spiritual restoration to sinful men and women. The descent of the Spirit at His baptism was a significant point in the ministry of Jesus. "Being full of the Holy Spirit [Jesus] was led by the Spirit into the wilderness" (Luke 4:1). The working of the Spirit in the ministry of Jesus proved the presence of the Kingdom.

Jesus described the role of the Holy Spirit in the kingdom of God. As part of the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy, He told His disciples, "Ye shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 1:5). The power of the Kingdom, so manifest in the Cross, the Resurrection, and the Ascension, was passed on to all who would be filled with the Spirit. The age of the Spirit is the age of the Church, the community of the Spirit. Through the Church the Spirit continues the Kingdom ministry of Jesus himself.

The Kingdom as a Future Reality
Biblical charismata, anointed proclamation of the Word, and confirming signs and wonders are distinguishing marks of the kingdom of God at work now. The kingdom of Satan has already been invaded by Jesus in the power of the Spirit (John 16:11; Colossians 1:13, 2:15). Yet final destruction of Satan and complete victory over all evil is part of a future eschatological consummation (Revelation 20:10).

The Kingdom and the Church
The kingdom of God is not the Church. Yet there is an inseparable relationship between the two. The invisible and true Church is the spiritual body of which Christ is the head (Ephesians 1:22-23; Colossians 1:18). It includes all who have believed, or will believe, in Christ as Savior from the Church's inception until the time God takes it out of the world.

The kingdom of God existed before the beginning of the Church and will continue after the work of the Church is complete. The Church is therefore part of the Kingdom, but not all of it. In the present age the kingdom of God is at work through the Church. When the Church has proclaimed the gospel of the Kingdom "in all the world for a witness unto all the nations" (Matthew 24:14), the drama of end-time events will begin. Finally, Christ will reign in majesty over His eternal Kingdom, which will include the church glorified.

The Kingdom of God and the Kingdoms of Earth
The kingdom of God and the kingdoms of this world exist side by side at the present time. However, these kingdoms will not be one and the same until Christ returns and the kingdoms of this world become "the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ" (Revelation 11:15). The kingdom of God may operate within, but is not to be identified with, any present political system. Believers take the gospel of the Kingdom into the world so that individuals may voluntarily choose the lordship of Jesus Christ.

Although the kingdom of God is not a present political entity, the citizens of the Kingdom are responsible to exert a positive influence on their society. Though all human government is currently, to some extent, under the influence of the evil one (Daniel 10:13, 20; John 12:31, 14:30; Ephesians 6:12), the Bible teaches that government is ordained by God to maintain order and punish evildoers (Romans 13:1-7). Governmental authorities are God's servants (Romans 13:6) whether they recognize it or not. Ideals of justice and decency found in government and society are the legacy of God's grace in the world (Romans 1:20, 2:14). Though they may be in rebellion, the kingdoms of the world are yet responsible to God and must be called to account for injustice and wickedness.

While the Bible does not give clear guidelines for Christian action in combating the social evils embedded in the structures of our society, and sincere believers will differ on the means to be employed, Christians clearly are to be salt and light (Matthew 5:13, 14). They are to be concerned about the needy (James 1:27, 2:16) and the oppressed (James 5:4-6). Filled with the Spirit, and given the opportunity to influence society, they are impelled to denounce unjust laws (Isaiah 10:1, 2) and to seek justice and goodness (Micah 6:8; Amos 5:14,15).

The kingdoms of the earth are subject to the influence of Satan (John 12:31, 14:30). Christ alone will accomplish the supernatural and cataclysmic destruction of the powers of evil (cf. Daniel 2; Revelation 19). Even the good structures of the present social and political order must ultimately come to an end in order to bring in the better rule of the Kingdom. The kingdom of God is not the blueprint for a radical cultural change based on some carnal theocratic or revolutionary agenda. Instead, it radically changes human personalities and lives. Through men and women who recognize its authority and live by its standards, the kingdom of God invades the stream of history. This process began with the first advent of the Messiah, has been advanced through the Church Age, and will be completed with the Second Coming. God's children should be in the world, but not of it (John 17:11, 14, 16). Romans 14:17 shows that the kingdom of God (God's rule in our lives) is demonstrated in and through us by "righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit."

Qwery,thanks for your info. I have read of those viewpoint. My viewpoint came from studing the word and what I feel the Holy Spirit revealed to me. Do I have all the answers? Of course not. I have always taken the Bible for the final authority on things. In the course of things, I have had to change my mind on so many things that I thought was right, and I hope I always will. That means I am still learning and teachable. I have never met anyone who had all the answers on everything, but someday I will. His name is: Lord God Jehovah, Lord of Lords, King of Kings, Jesus, Prince of peace and of course the list goes on. smile. calledoutPTL

Vine; I really do not know what point you are trying to make; and how it applies to TODAY.

I'm with Qwerty on this one, that Christ has one "grouping" of peoples here; that is those who He has assembled to Himself by faith... call them what you may. Of course we have a multiplicity of churches, each with their own emphasis, but all this is useless without a relationship with Christ. I too believe that the kingdom/church is in the here and now, and that Christ rules in the lives of believers.

Vine

I will address your points in a number of posts. This way this posts won't get to long for one read.

Do we need to be able to point to the church as a visible body for the kingdom and church to be the same?

"First off, If you say the church and the Kingdom of God are the same, then you won't mind pointing it out by name. What is the name of that true church?"

In the new covenant scriptures the church is called the church of God, churches of God, churches of Christ, church of location, the body of Christ, the bride of Christ, the whole family in heaven and earth. This church includes all believers in heaven and in earth and for the most part they are scattered in different sects, meet in homes, are part of the underground church, and some are part of congregations that have a lampstand.

For that are in the kingdom of God it is the same thing. Some are in heaven and some on earth. Some in Babylon, some in home churches, some meeting by themselves, some in underground churches, some perhaps in congregations that have a lampstand. There names are written in the Lamps book of life and they are known by God.

Is the kingdom is the church does that mean the message is muddied and are there goats in the kingdom or church?

"The problem with that is that for the Kingdom and church to be the same that would mean that the Kingdom message would be somewhat muddied with untruth, or am I missing that the goats are still in the church?"

The kingdom message it is preached in all the sects is muddied with untruth. Just look around you. We are in a great apostasy. Also I would hold that there are no goats in the church but there are many goats that profess in the sects but that doesn't make them part of the church of Christ.

"Second, take a look at what the apostles went around preaching, Acts 8:12, 19:8, 28:23, it's impossible to substitute "church" for "kingdom" in such passages. Unless you mean "Jesus" as the church, but than what would one do with the bride talk?"

I have no problem changing church for kingdom in the above scriptures. You state it is impossible but you don't state why it is impossible. The church is the saved people and the kingdom is the saved people. I don't feel like changing church for kingdom does any violence to the above scriptures at all.

How many kingdoms are there and is the kingdom of God and kingdom of heaven the same thing?

"One other thing, 2 parts of the same Kingdom, the invisible, where God is and Jesus now sits on the throne, called Kingdom of Heaven. and the Visible, the Kingdom on earth, the one God gave us dominion over. Are you saying there are two true churches?"

When we deal with the kingdom of God or the kingdom of heaven or the kingdom of his Son we are dealing with all the saved. There are not two different kingdoms that include all the saved any more than there are two different churches that contain the save.

There is the false church that is depicted in Revelation as the great prostitute and there is the kingdom of Satan (Mat 12:26). The King of heaven is not different that the kingdom of heaven. They are both one and the same thing.
The term kingdom of heaven is primary used in Matthew which was written to the Jews. To see that the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God is the same all you have to do is compare Matthew with the other Gospels. You will see the same passage in other Gospels using kingdom of God where in Matthew it uses kingdom of heaven.

Both the kindgom of God (Mar 1:15) and the kingdom of heaven (Mat 3:2) were announced as being at hand. Blessed are the poor for theirs is the kingdom of heaven (Matt 5:3) or the kingdom of God (Luk 6:20). He that is least in the kingdom of heaven (Matt 11:11) or kingdom of God (Luk 7:28) is greater than John. If you go thought the harmony of the Gospels you will see where the writer interchanged kingdom of God and kingdom of heaven in the same accounts. There can be taken no other way that these two terms mean the same thing.

OK gang, I think where we differ is that you see the church as place and people, where as I see the church as a people and a message. Of course there is only one Kingdom, for it is a government, we, the earthly Kingdom is an visible extension of that government. See I see the church as the bride (person), once He comes for his bride, we rule with Him in His Kingdom. The Kingdom has always existed whereas the church has not. With that understanding they are not the same thing. The church will one day indeed be part of the Kingdom, but the reverse is not taught. The church, as a people, houses the message of the King.

EDIT: Maybe better said the church people exists to promote the message of the King, not to promote self/church. He came to establish the Kingdom, the way he intended to spread the news of that Kingdom was through the people of the church, but the church preaches church not Kingdom. You go to church (place) to learn to be part of the Kingdom not to stay and be part of the church, for our destination is not the church (again place) but the Kingdom.





"What is false doctrine? - To deny or ignore the cross."

Vine
"OK gang, I think where we differ is that you see the church as place and people, where as I see the church as a people and a message."

The people are the church it is not a building. The church is the people, the saved people. It is not a place and it is not a message, however the church does have a place to meet and it does have a message to preach and share.

"Of course there is only one Kingdom, for it is a government, we, the earthly Kingdom is an visible extension of that government."

Let's go by what the Bible says the kingdom is. We want to know what the Bible says the kingdom is.

The kingdom is spiritual and can't be see with the human eye.
Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

The kingdom is spiritual and is with in you.
Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

The kingdom is righteousness, and peace, and joy.
Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Men press into the kingdom
Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Entering the kingdom and being saved are the same thing.
Mat 19:24, 25 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

You will not see this kingdom until you are born again.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

All that are in the kingdom are delivered from darkness.
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

The kingdom started with the preaching of John
Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

The kingdom was set up in the days of the Roman empire
Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.

The kingdom came with power on the day of Pentecost
Mar 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

"See I see the church as the bride (person), once He comes for his bride, we rule with Him in His Kingdom."

But what does the Bible say. Let's use scriptures to base our points on. We are ruling with him in his kingdom now.

John was in the kingdom.
Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

"The Kingdom has always existed whereas the church has not."

The kingdom start with John and people were pressing into it with his preaching. Dan 4:22 says it was set up in the days of the Roman empire.

"With that understanding they are not the same thing. The church will one day indeed be part of the Kingdom, but the reverse is not taught. The church, as a people, houses the message of the King."

How about some Bible support for this things. I see lots of views and positions but I don't see the Bible to back it up.

"He came to establish the Kingdom, the way he intended to spread the news of that Kingdom was through the people of the church, but the church preaches church not Kingdom."

The church is to preach the message of the kingdom. That message is deliverance from sin (darkness) and translation into the kingdom.

"You go to church (place) to learn to be part of the Kingdom not to stay and be part of the church, for our destination is not the church (again place) but the Kingdom."

You don't go to church. The church goes to meeting. The church is the people not the building. That is an old sectarian view that the church is the building.

Thank you Qwerty, you have done more to advance the Kingdom message than I could have done. Look at all those verses you point out. Now, even though you may not clearly see what I am trying to say, others can take that knowledge and study for themselves.

I would want to sit with you in service because I would learn so much! What fruit is produced has shown here. But you would do good to remember we are both brothers in Christ. Seriously, I have learned where weakness is in what I say and thank you for that. I still do not subscribe to the thinking you do, but I will keep studying.
Now for fun, with all of that right knowledge of yours,

Do you glow at night?!

"Vine; I really do not know what point you are trying to make;"

Hank, just using the Forum for what I see it good for, communicating ideas, learning, and improving how we share the gospel. I know much of what I say is "way out there", and I didn't expect anyone to agree without a challenge. Even for Vineyard, it gets strange looks. Just think of the looks on the apostles faces when healing didn't take place- It did however help them to later understand.

Would the Mennonite Brethren take me back? Would the Holdemans welcome me with open arms? What would God have them do?

Vine
"Do you glow at night?!"

Yes I think there is a glow of joy and happiness in my face, at least I have been told that. And especially after a good season in prayer or reading the Word, or reading good practical books. The Word of God makes me so so joyful.

Qwerty; you started out speaking about "sections" of the church, and more recently you have dropped that term and refer to others as "sects". Do you consider it "sin" to belong to a denominational church or to those who ypu call "sects" ?

Hank
"Qwerty; you started out speaking about "sections" of the church, and more recently you have dropped that term and refer to others as "sects". Do you consider it "sin" to belong to a denominational church or to those who ypu call "sects" ?"

I think that divions are wrong and sinful and I believe the Bible teaches we become a member of God's church when we are born again and we are not instructed to become of member of any thing else.

Sin again is rated by light and if person doesn't know belonging to a "sect" is one of the words of the flesh (Gal 5.20) then they that will not be charged to there account. It would be sin for me to join a sect.

Galatians 5:20 YLT: "idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, strifes, emulations, wraths, rivalries, dissensions, sects,"

Young's Literial Translation search for the word "sect".
http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?version1=15&search=sect