We [Paul, I assume Luke and likely others] went ashore, found the local believers, and stayed with them a week. These believers prophesied through the Holy Spirit that Paul should not go on to Jerusalem. ...
The next stop after leaving Tyre was Ptolemais, where we greeted the brothers and sisters and stayed for one day. The next day we went on to Caesarea and stayed at the home of Philip the Evangelist, one of the seven men who had been chosen to distribute food. He had four unmarried daughters who had the gift of prophecy.
Several days later a man named Agabus, who also had the gift of prophecy, arrived from Judea. He came over, took Paul's belt, and bound his own feet and hands with it. Then he said, "The Holy Spirit declares, 'So shall the owner of this belt be bound by the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem and turned over to the Gentiles.'" When we heard this, we and the local believers all begged Paul not to go on to Jerusalem.
But he said, "Why all this weeping? You are breaking my heart! I am ready not only to be jailed at Jerusalem but even to die for the sake of the Lord Jesus." When it was clear that we couldn't persuade him, we gave up and said, "The Lord's will be done."

Please tell me, where is the highly esteemed unity in this story? Paul, an individual, actually went against the light of the brethren [notice, it seemed Paul had zero supporters, even Luke and his traveling companions joined the rest of the congregation] and followed his own convictions. Surely he must have been expelled for this, or at least put on repentance! Why isn't that recorded? He didn't write that so he didn't have to defend himself by leaving that part out so why didn't Luke write about Paul's discipline? How can the CGCM accept much of the New Testament which was written by this man who went against the light of the brethren? Also, how could the Holy Spirit tell the brethren one thing - to prophesy that Paul should not go to Jerusalem - yet tell Paul to go?

We heard a sermon this past Sunday about Acts 20:20 vision but this background story really stood out to me. The pastor talked about how Paul acted according to his convictions, even in the midst of outside influence. Can you imagine a Holdeman having the freedom to do this? Sure, I've heard them say "The Lord's will be done," but in reality they mean that the Lord's will is for you to return to the CGCM so let that be done!

How do you Holdemans explain away this scripture? The way I understand Holdemanism, if a person is a heretic in one thing, he/she is a heretic and must be disregarded in all things. This would make Paul a heretic according to the Holdeman mindset so how can Paul be regarded in anything? Even his instructions on discipline?

**And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.**

Tiron
"How do you Holdemans explain away this scripture?"

Ok come on. The H has an answer for every thing!

Ok come on. The H has an answer for every thing!

Qwerty, The above statement neither is true nor charitable. I do not think that statement was becoming of you.

Ok come on. The H has an answer for every thing!

Qwerty, The above statement neither is true nor charitable. I do not think that statement was becoming of you.



See what I mean qwerty? if your reputation is that you are jerk like me, it is okay if you say it! but perfect people like you are suppose to stay shut up!


the holdies would never allow Paul of Christ to join their perfect church, they wouldn't fit in there, and if the somehow got in there they would destroy them among their peers and then kick them out for the holdies depend on ministerial authority much like the Egyptians depended on the divine nature of the pharoahs.

Christianity is a real threat to the holdeman religion

Fred, Since you are an authority on Christianity and what is not why don't you show me a better way. I have been reading your post for a long time and frankly I do not see anything that I desire as of yet. While I think that some of your observations are correct. May I see how your beliefs translate late into some authentic Christian living that I can see is Christ centered.

I know you will call this a personal attack, but I was speaking to Qwerty and not you and you choose to enter the discussion.

Neither will I be drawn any further into a discussion about the H's with you.

Fred, Since you are an authority on Christianity and what is not why don't you show me a better way.



Sanitizer, Christianity is well spelled out in the Holy bible, your people do not use proper judgment to condemn the just, a better way is to let them free and start properly using justice. Of course that takes wisdom, a which is a woefully lacking spiritual attribute of holdemanism.

8:1 ¶ Does not wisdom call out? Does not understanding raise her voice?
2 On the heights along the way, where the paths meet, she takes her stand;
3 beside the gates leading into the city, at the entrances, she cries aloud:
4 “To you, O men, I call out; I raise my voice to all mankind.
5 You who are simple, gain prudence; you who are foolish, gain understanding.
6 Listen, for I have worthy things to say; I open my lips to speak what is right.
7 My mouth speaks what is true, for my lips detest wickedness.
8 All the words of my mouth are just; none of them is crooked or perverse.
9 To the discerning all of them are right; they are faultless to those who have knowledge.
10 Choose my instruction instead of silver, knowledge rather than choice gold,
11 for wisdom is more precious than rubies, and nothing you desire can compare with her.
12 ¶ “I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence; I possess knowledge and discretion.
13 To fear the LORD is to hate evil; I hate pride and arrogance, evil behaviour and perverse speech.
14 Counsel and sound judgment are mine; I have understanding and power.
15 By me kings reign and rulers make laws that are just;
16 by me princes govern, and all nobles who rule on earth.

Notice that by wisdom kings and ruler make laws that are "just"? but by holdemanism the conference and traditions make laws that divide families and destroy souls

I have been reading your post for a long time and frankly I do not see anything that I desire as of yet.



I am not offering you anything but the bible


While I think that some of your observations are correct.


another way of saying that your people will punish me until I have an experience that makes me submit to the what I perceive a lack of wisdom on your part? (I think probably)

May I see how your beliefs translate late into some authentic Christian living that I can see is Christ centered.


Long suffering, kindness, gentleness, forgiveness, work ethic? yes just ask the people around me. Allowing liars to tread on me as they harm the innocent? forget it, I'll blast their atrocious behavior across the land at risk of blood before I shut up!




I know you will call this a personal attack, but I was speaking to Qwerty and not you and you choose to enter the discussion.



Not at all I don't mind your post or your questions at all, you misjudge my motives dear friend.



Neither will I be drawn any further into a discussion about the H's with you.


This is a dumb site to hang out on if that is how you feel!

Neither will I be drawn any further into a discussion about the H's with you.

Sanitizer, actually I was talking to qwerty and not to you, but that is okay, my point was about something he will quite well understands.

Fred, I find it interesting that u think I am an H. I will admit I probably led you to think that.

Fred, by the way you were right. I feel into the same pit you fell in. You were talking to Qwerty not me. (Sorry for being like you)just kidding don't get riled.

Sanitizer
Qwerty said: Ok come on. The H has an answer for every thing!

"Sanitizer said: Qwerty, The above statement neither is true nor charitable. I do not think that statement was becoming of you."

Perhaps you misunderstood what I mean. I meant exactly what I said. I believe that the H has an answer for every objection. Try asking TR. Have you yet to find him with out an answer. Not very often you will see him say I don't know.

I am not sure what is uncharitable about what I said nor why that statement is not becoming of me. Could you explain what you mean.

Fred
"but perfect people like you are suppose to stay shut up!"

I am not perfect as in free from mistakes, errors, and misunderstandings and no one is. I think he just misunderstood what I meant. Perhaps he thought I was being sarcastic. I was being honest.

Perhaps you misunderstood what I mean. I meant exactly what I said. I believe that the H has an answer for every objection. Try asking TR. Have you yet to find him with out an answer. Not very often you will see him say I don't know.

Qwerty, The problem with that statement is that you lumped 20,000 people or so together. You have judged them all as one. I know many of them well and they do not (all) have (all) the answers. If you stick to that argument as true, my respect for you will be greatly diminished.

>>I believe that the H has an answer for every objection. Try asking TR. Have you yet to find him with out an answer. Not very often you will see him say I don't know.<<

I'm sure TR can answer for himself but I believe he would readily admit he doesn't have all the answers. Many times, instead of an H saying they don't know, they would probably rather give you the silent treatment.

Qwerty, on the other hand one could probably say you have all the answers to every objection.

what a great post! I took this with me today for breaks and lunch.

We went ashore, found the local believers, and stayed with them a week. These believers prophesied through the Holy Spirit that Paul should not go on to Jerusalem. ...

Now how many open up after just a week to prophesy what will be seen as a negative?

We gave up,..

Is that not what happens when that happens? Never speak up first unless you are ready to pay the cost. Others will shoot you down just so they can stay in the right crowd.

Why is it church people will pray for those they consider problems to not show up at the next get together? And rejoice that their prayers seem to be answered! Are those not the very people that we are suppost to attract and help bring to Him?

How unlike John... I must decrease... are we ok with that?

I don't know if this will encourage the Holdemans to share or not, but for the record, I see total unity in the story related. I would really like to hear the Holdeman explanation for this story though.

**And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.**

Sanitizer
Qwerty said: Perhaps you misunderstood what I mean. I meant exactly what I said. I believe that the H has an answer for every objection. Try asking TR. Have you yet to find him with out an answer. Not very often you will see him say I don't know.

Sanitizer said: "Qwerty, The problem with that statement is that you lumped 20,000 people or so together. You have judged them all as one. I know many of them well and they do not (all) have (all) the answers."

When I referred to the H having an answer for every objection I was referring to the ministers and the dyed in the wool H'er like TR and wtk. I guess I thought that common sense would tell a person that I didn't mean all the babies, all the young people, or even all the adults. Most adults in any sect can't pull out here Bible and support their own teachings.

Tirone, you said:

How do you Holdemans explain away this scripture?

I guess I didn't realize I was trying to explain it away. Maybe you could expound a bit on why you think I would? It looks like to me that Paul felt God's call to go to Jerusalem. Other believers had some kind of revelation that bad things would happen to Paul's earthly being while in that city, and begged him not to go (which I believe Paul felt also). However, he was not afraid of these earthly attempts to squash the spreading of the Gospel, and was not afraid to go on to Jerusalem.

Let's say Gladwin Koehn (for the sake of referencing someone that some of you know, I don't know him personally) would feel in his heart to go to China, which has a government that is hostile to Christianity. Other church leaders would feel that surely he shouldn't, as bad things would befall him there. I understand that you think he would be excommunicated if he went. I disagree.

***let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Hebrews 12:1b***

TR, first of all, I wasn't in any way singling you out when I wrote that post. I don't know if I even thought about you.

What I read from that story is that it wasn't just that they feared something bad would happen to Paul so they would prefer that he didn't go to Jerusalem. The Holy Spirit expressly told them to prophesy that he shouldn't go, yet the Holy Spirit also told Paul that he should go. If it was clear that the Holy Spirit was truly telling Gladwin's brethren that he shouldn't go to China, do you honestly think there would be no problems with that scenario? I'm not saying someone would be expelled right away, but it would be considered disunity. I'm just speaking from my experience that because I wasn't allowed to have my own convictions they outright expelled me. I realize it doesn't work that way with everyone, but I think there would at the least be some concerns.

Now, just to state how I see unity in that story ... I think true unity is allowing others to have their own convictions even if they are different than mine. I don't see that kind of unity in the CGCM.

**And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.**

GM
"Qwerty, on the other hand one could probably say you have all the answers to every objection."

What we were talking about was answers to objections concerning the teaching of the Holdeman's. I think that I have answers to objects to what I believe but I don't have an answers to objects concerning what the congregation I attend teaches as I have objects myself.

Qwerty, what are the "objects" to the congregation's views that you attend ? You owe us further explanation since you refer to them.

Hank
"Qwerty, what are the "objects" to the congregation's views that you attend ? You owe us further explanation since you refer to them."

As noted to you a number of times Hank I am not here to discuss about what I agree or disagree with the congregation that I attend. As far as owing, I owe you nothing but to love you (Rom 13:8).