Just wondering here, if I am a Christian but not a member of the C.O.G.I.C. then they would consider me "in the Kingdom" but not in the church... so according to the H belief, do I get to go to Heaven or am I doomed for Hell?
Suzi
"Just wondering here, if I am a Christian but not a member of the C.O.G.I.C. then they would consider me "in the Kingdom" but not in the church... so according to the H belief, do I get to go to Heaven or am I doomed for Hell?"
I would say in the universal church and the kingdom but not in the visible church.
>>Hopefully Qwerty will back off a little on this one and let a Holdmann or X Holdeman answer it.<<
Like that's going to happen, Paris. Dontcha know that Bro. Qwerty knows everything, right down to the percentage of Holdemans who actually believe in the doctrine of the avoidance?
A few questions for you, Qwerty:
How many hours a day/night do you spend on this forum?
How many hours a day/night do you spend on other forums?
When's the last time you left your house?
When's the last time you had a shower?
Do you have a job?
Do you have a family?
This message has been edited by StevenThiessen on Apr 10, 2008 9:31 PM
"All who are saved are in the kingdom, but not everyone in the kingdom is in the church."
"Picture the kingdom as a large circle, with the church as a smaller circle in the center of the kingdom. One enters the kingdom by inheritance upon becoming a child of God through spiritual birth (John 3:3-5)... Only those already in the kingdom may enter the church. The entrance into the church is by baptism."
"I would say in the universal church and the kingdom but not in the visible church."
Thanks for your reply... but I don't really get it. What I understand so far is that according to H doctrine, I'm part of the universal church and in the kingdom but not part of what they think is the OTVC. But does that mean that in their eyes I won't be joining them in Heaven?
Just out of curiosity, what is your relationship with C.O.G.I.C.? Personally, I'm a member of a small community where several of our friends and neighbors are H. We may be getting together with the H minister to discuss some things and I'm trying to get a feel for what kinds of answers we might get to our questions and what kind of responses we might get for what we believe.
Good luck getting a straight (or should I say straight-to-Hell)answer to that one, Suzi. I've tried to wring it from them many times before but with no luck. If you're like me (been exposed to the H "truth") then you're supposed to come to the conclusion that you're hell-bound if you don't join. 'Course they'll never come right out and say that. At the risk of offending Qwerty, I'd call that Holdeman voodoo; control from a distance.
Suzi
"What I understand so far is that according to H doctrine, I'm part of the universal church and in the kingdom but not part of what they think is the OTVC."
"You are teaching a common two-phased Protestant view of the church: (1) that the church is the universal body of all Christian believers without an organized [denominational] manifestation on earth. (2)...Every local assembly of believers can be independent of any conference government. We believe such a view is heresy."
Excommunication papers signed by Ministers of the New Plymouth, Idaho, CGCM congregation
Looks like they don't accept the concerp of the universal church and the visible or local church.
"But does that mean that in their eyes I won't be joining them in Heaven?"
"If they will not obey the call when they hear and understand it, they will find that Christ will slay them with the sword of His mouth: therefore, we cannot comfort anyone to stay in such churches."
"There is no salvation where anyone will not unite with the Church of God against better knowledge."
John Holdeman, A History of the Church of God, page 188.
"It would seem that one cannot refuse the church and remain in the kingdom indefinitely." Bible Doctrines and Practice, page 169
Looks like if you are presented with "the truth" and see it and reject it "Christ will slay" you.
"So I get the circle thing, but how does that apply to Heaven? Does it mean that I will go to Heaven but they get to go to a better part of Heaven?"
April
I don't know what the BD&P is : )<<<<<<<
-----------
THEN HE SAID THIS...
------------
>>>Looks like I was wrong.
"All who are saved are in the kingdom, but not everyone in the kingdom is in the church."
"Picture the kingdom as a large circle, with the church as a smaller circle in the center of the kingdom. One enters the kingdom by inheritance upon becoming a child of God through spiritual birth (John 3:3-5)... Only those already in the kingdom may enter the church. The entrance into the church is by baptism."
I guess if all that is really what the H teaches and believes then our meeting might not go so well.
I'm off to get my little one to bed but will maybe come back with more thoughts or questions tomorrow.
Galations 2: 10-11 (NLT)
I myself no longer live, but Christ lives in me. So I live my life in this earthly body by trusting in the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me. I am not one of those who treats the grace of God as meaningless. For if we could be saved by keeping the law, then there was no need for Christ to die.
I will try to answer Suz's and Paris question. Its a bit of complicated, but if you follow carefully you can understand it.
1. According to H teaching, all born again believers are in the kingdom". They teach that when one repents and places one's trust in Jesus, one is "born again into the "kingdom". In a diagram, they refer to this as the larger circle.
2. CGCM will only baptize such individuals as are in the "kingdom". When on receives H's water baptism, this rite places one into "the Church of God", which they believe to be no other then CGCM. They refer to this as the smaller circle inside the larger circle. Baptism, they teach, is what places a believer into the "church". They also teach that this does not guarantee one's salvation. Salvation is only sure if one remains in the "kingdom". They attempt to excommunicate only such as they deem to have fallen from the "kingdom".
Just to further clarify this, they teach that ALL ACTUAL AND TRUE BELIEVERS IN CGCM are in the kingdom. If they have fallen by sin or unbelief from Christ, they have fallen from the kingdom, even if the "church" has not yet excommunicated such a person. SO, it is conceivable with them, that members in their midst may not be saved.
3. They teach that the church is the "bride of Christ". In BD&P, they write that at the consummation of time, Christ will receive His bride, the church, into heaven.
4. They also teach in the BD&P, that the kingdom will be "delivered up" to heaven, and quote a certain Bible verse to back this up. I do not have access to BD&P; it is easy to read and quote their beliefs.
So, those who say that CGCM teaches that only the "church" believers will go to heaven have it wrong. They very clearly spell out that one MUST be in the "kingdom" to get to heaven. There seems to be somewhat of a disconnect or incomplete explanation in their teaching about the difference between the :"kingdom & church" as it relates to heaven. I believe that at that point, they do not really make a difference, however, they make a point of teaching that the church is the "bride" of Christ... whereas those in the "kingdom" are NOT the bride.
Suzi
"Just out of curiosity, what is your relationship with C.O.G.I.C.?"
I have been to one of the meetings a long time ago and have talked a number of times with one of there dyed in the wool members.
"Personally, I'm a member of a small community where several of our friends and neighbors are H. We may be getting together with the H minister to discuss some things and I'm trying to get a feel for what kinds of answers we might get to our questions and what kind of responses we might get for what we believe."
I think the main issues I would have with them is the claim to be the OTVC, their ministery is authoritarian and their system appears to have no checks and balances (some reports of spirutal abuse with the sheep club), and they don't teach living a holy sin-free live.
Do you attend a local congregation or do you meet in homes?
To add... I believe that Jesus set up a spiritual Israel in the New Testament, which was and is a visible organized body of believers who can freely acknowledge each other as brothers and sisters in the faith of Jesus Christ, who root out those that cause divisions contrary to the doctrine of the Word of God. Further more, it is a place where the command to be of the same mind and judgment, a unified body where unity means quite a bit more than simply an agreement to disagree. In John 10:16, Jesus spoke of "other sheep". John chapter 10 as a whole is speaking of sheep as those that hear, understand, and follow Jesus. So this must, of necessity, mean that there are those that hear, understand, and follow Jesus, yet it is His ultimate desire that those that hear and understand would come together, and as such, be a body of believers who are of the same mind and judgment concerning spiritual values, and would avoid/seperate/remove from their midst any who were carried away with strange doctrines, doctrines that fit the reasoning of man, but not the mind of Christ. This pattern is followed throughout the entire New Testament by Paul and all those that were believers. Those who attempted to go against the preaching and teaching of the early church leaders were first sharply rebuked and warned of their falling away from truth, and if reconciliation and a revived spiritual life did not occur, there was a removal from the household of the saints. This removal, I believe, was not a physical action, as it was in the Old Testament Israel, but instead was and is a spiritual removal. This removal is an acknowledgment of the saints on earth of that which has already taken place in heaven.
As far as judging others saved or lost, it is not my intention nor purpose. However, I do believe one should strive to be obedient to the Word of God, and it would be a false doctrine if I proclaimed that one could be disobedient and still be a Christian, would it not?
I am open to correction if this view is not in fact according to the Word of God.
***let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Hebrews 12:1b***
TR, do you pray for your daily illusion along with your daily bread!? Hank has only "explained" the inexplicable. When are you going to figure out that such doctrines were never meant to be understood, only believed and that their function is not to deepen understanding but to eradicate it and provide nothing but a tool of manipulation in its place? Sheesh, get a grip.
"who root out those that cause divisions contrary to the doctrine of the Word of God."
TR, these are the words that tip a person off. How dare you presume to "root out those that cause divisions contrary to the doctrine of the Word of God"? Unity is more than believing the same things. It is being of one mind and heart, not ONE TRUE BELIEF. I have discovered the unity that brings peace between people. The unity that is bent on "rooting out" those who disagree is what Qwerty refers to as the "sheep club". You should be ashamed of yourself.
"Picture the kingdom as a large circle, with the church as a smaller circle in the center of the kingdom. One enters the kingdom by inheritance upon becoming a child of God through spiritual birth (John 3:3-5)... Only those already in the kingdom may enter the church. The entrance into the church is by baptism."
Which "religion" is interested in centering themselves in smaller circles?
.... oh never-mind that word is a bad word and offensive to some and makes me look like a nut case to mention.
anyhow, I went to the most highly esteemed holy person in my local congregation and said, if the universal church is a big circle, and the visible church is a little circle inside the big circle, then how come there are people that are being expelled from the little circle form time to time, are you admitting that at times the visible church is not as holy as the people in the big circle?
While we are on this subject, I would like to again draw attention to the fact that teaching of the church and kingdom by CGCM, is not in tune with what Menno Simons & Dirk Phillips taught (both these leaders viewed by H as leaders of the "true church" in the Reformation).
Simply put, our Mennonite ancestors taught that God had only "one people", and these are they who repent from sin, trust in Christ and live for Him. They said firstly, that these were the "church" and referred to the church as: "the church outside of which there is no salvation". Read also article 18 (is it?) of the "33 Articles of Faith".
The teaching of the church and the kingdom comes from the teaching James R. Graves of the Primitive and/or Landmark Baptists. Several years ago I picked up a book at our church; "May Thy Kingdom Come" 1954, by Max ??, a teacher at "COG, Anderson" and he already then makes reference to the "circle diagram" used by H in BD&P. I contacted the mentioned Baptists church and they informed me in writing that this was a common way used by them to describe their beliefs.
I wrote the editors of BD&P, and asked them if this may have been plagiarized from the Baptists. They replied and said they thought it was original with H brethren, and any similarities were coincidence.
In my view, CGCM has strayed from Mennonite Anabaptists beliefs of the Reformation... and certainly from the "H church" where I was baptized.
There is no Bible support for people being in the Kingdom of God and not being in the church for the are one and the same thing. To be in the church is to be in the kingdom and to be in the kingdom is to be in the church.
Actually, the kingdom is not a place with boundaries, it rather denotes the condition of being under the rule of a monarch. Not being found within the boundaries of a defined "kingdom." It is rather about whose rule you are under.
God not going to ask any one to determine weather you or i am saved. Christ alone will make tis determination.
a few thoughts of the process of being in the holderman church. one is born in the world,called to God, repent and is born again and converted, saved, in the kingdom of God, but not in the H church, they tell their testamony to the chruch, if they believe them, they can join them, they are bapitized into the H chruch. they lose grace with God due to their lack of the love of God or other things, now they are lost and bound for hell but in the H church. when H church see the lost state of the member, the H church exspels the lost member, then they again make peace with God repent, then they come to the H church tell how God has forgaven them and they are reaccepted. they die and the obit reads they with a member otf the COGICM.
the old minister frank winger used the 2 circle story but he put the smaller circle nesr the edge of the larger circle with part of the smaller circle outside of the kingdom.
to be a member of the H church is a perk not a mandate.
Hank-
So in a nutshell... maybe I'll be floating into Heaven on a dinghy, but I missed the cruise ship reserved for the bride. bummer.
Querty-
What does "dyed in the wool" mean?
My main issue would be something else, that I hesitate to mention hear b/c I'm afraid I'd really take a lot of heat for it.
We are members of a local church congregation that believes the "Church" is comprised of anyone who trusts in Christ for his salvation.
Suzi
"So in a nutshell... maybe I'll be floating into Heaven on a dinghy, but I missed the cruise ship reserved for the bride."
That is according to Holdeman teaching. I think we will all be equal. On big I's no little u's. If we are saved we all get a penny where we have born the heat of the day or just got in on the 11th hour.
"My main issue would be something else, that I hesitate to mention hear b/c I'm afraid I'd really take a lot of heat for it."
I think people are pretty good here and we have a good community of people that check in almost daily and we have some good discussions here. Email me if you like and I will give you my take on how it would be received.
You are right on both points... according to H teaching, (which I indicated seemed to be incomplete) it would follow that they believe they may be something special in heaven, although I have never heard anyone suggest that. A dingy is fine by me, because we will get there NOT based on our works, our goodness, our church, or our station in life, but by the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ alone.
*************** edited out
On the other point you made about your church understanding... that's the same as our church understands it. And actually more and more H folks are getting to see the bigger picture... even if they want to call it "the kingdom".
God bless you and yours.
H&A
Our email address comes up when you click on "Hank" at my login (under the photo).
This message has been edited by Aaronsboy on Apr 15, 2008 11:27 PM
I haven't thoroughly read this thread, Suzi, but just to add to Hank's thoughts ...
I never was under the impression that Holdemans would get special treatment in Heaven (but I don't know everything about that so I'll leave that for others to explain). Hank explained well - to a certain point - but one of the main teachings is that if a non-Holdeman comes in contact with the CGCM and do not follow through and become a member, then they are bound for hell. I can't for the life of me know how they determine 'coming in contact with.' Is having a casual meal together then turning away from them enough to send a person to hell or does the person(s) have to attend their services for a certain amount of time? I don't know the answer to this, but your getting together with the H minister and being enlightened by their doctrines may be enough contact for them to send you to hell so just prepare yourself to be rejected.
**And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.**
Hank, what you are saying about the Kingdom and the church is very much like I am studying right now. Whereas Qwerty says Kingdom/church. i.e. same thing. Q challenges to verse it out with the bible, can it be done? Not H teachings, but out of the bible.
Q, the teachings of the church also need to be backed up with the bible. Without wiggle room, to be true. Can you do that with what your same thing theory?
Does the church meet the standards of being the Kingdom? Seek ye first the Kingdom... Do not worry what you will eat, drink... What you will wear... And all these things will be... (Check out what Jesus teaches about the Kingdom in Matthew).
"What is false doctrine? - To deny or ignore the cross."
Vine
"Q, the teachings of the church also need to be backed up with the bible. Without wiggle room, to be true. Can you do that with what your same thing theory?"
Yes I think that can be done quite easily.
"Does the church meet the standards of being the Kingdom?"
Yes by all means.
"Seek ye first the Kingdom... Do not worry what you will eat, drink... What you will wear... And all these things will be... (Check out what Jesus teaches about the Kingdom in Matthew)."
Yes seek first the things that are given to God's called out people and all these other things shall be added unto you. God's called out people have righteness, joy, and peace in the Holy Spirit. And the list goes on.
The kingdom message is goodly sorrow, repentance, forsaking of sin, and by faith believing in Jesus in your heart, and forgiveness of sins though the name of Jesus. This is the church message also. But it all fits and is surely supported by the Word of God.
[godly sorrow (2Cor 7:10), repentance (Luke 13:3), forsaking of all sin (Joh 5:14), by faith believing on Jesus in your heart (Rom 5:1), confess with your mouth Jesus as your Savior (Rom 10:9-10), confession of sins to God in Jesus name (1Joh 1:9; Act 4:12)]
The kingdom and the church were both set up at the same time. People are being added by salvation to both.
[Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.]
If you sin you are put out of both. And the list goes on. It just can't be any other way.
[Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;]
This message has been edited by qwertyasdf99 on Apr 12, 2008 11:09 AM
Vine; just a quick response. I think we must remember that the word "church" really means "an assembly of people". So, we have have believers assembled at different places.
The other use, and yet the same but in a spiritual sense, is when Jesus says in Matt.16 ; "... on this rock I will build my church." The rock being Peters declaration, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." All those who believe and are with this declaration, are those who Christ assembles to Himself. This is not at any particular place, but is that "assembly" which each believing individual can be assured to be part of.
In my mind the kingdom could be the same as this second use, that is all who believe and are in Christ are already part of the kingdom which is here and now... "is within you", as Christ said.
Our H friends are somewhat right in their explanation, in that they say the kingdom includes all who believe. Where they err is that they limit the extent of Jesus' words of Matt. 16 "... on this rock will I build my church." They claim that they , and they alone today are those who are included in these words of Jesus. It really is ludicrous when you think of it... only CGCM being those who correctly understand the declaration of Peter; "Thou art the Christ". It totally flies in the face of their belief that all who believe are the "kingdom". So, the question must be asked; are those who are born again into the kingdom (according to H belief) not also those who declare with Peter, "Thou art the Christ !"
Now, having said the above about CGCM, (and a statement that Qwerty would agree with) I would also warn those reading here that Qwerty seems to be courting the same danger. He fellowships with a congregation (according to his comments) that believe in some sort of OTVC. So, I really do not know for sure where Qwerty stands on this whole issue. He is quick to limit the extent of believers to the a narrower view of scripture, then most here.
Yes seek first the things that are given to God's called out people and all these other things shall be added unto you. God's called out people have righteness, joy, and peace in the Holy Spirit. And the list goes on.
The kingdom message is goodly sorrow, repentance, forsaking of sin, and by faith believing in Jesus in your heart, and forgiveness of sins though the name of Jesus. This is the church message also. But it all fits and is surely supported by the Word of God.
The kingdom and the church were both set up at the same time. People are being added by salvation to both. If you sin you are put out of both. And the list goes on. It just can't be any other way.
Very good sounding post. Just one problem, No scripture. This is an opinion. And in a Kingdom only the Kings opinion matters. What does the King say- not how does one interpret it.
This message has been edited by Vinekeeper on Apr 12, 2008 8:04 AM
The kingdom and the church were both set up at the same time.
Qwerty, how do you "prove" this statement of yours? Is it "both" or "same"? Did not the Kingdom exist before the church? What makes Jesus King? Can you give me the scripture?
Vine
"Very good sounding post. Just one problem, No scripture. This is an opinion. And in a Kingdom only the Kings opinion matters. What does the King say- not how does one interpret it."
I will add some scipture support to the post for you vine. With opinion every thing we all believe is an opinion.
"What does the King say- not how does one interpret it."
Well I think we all interpret what the Bible says.
Suzi Her is my take on the life preserver vs ship theory. Okay if the ship on life sea is the church and all the christians in the world that are not members of the church are floating around on the sea, that version is a direct copout by the H. In real life, people that end up in the sea have come from a boat somewhere and the life preserver has come from somewhere(a boat usually). And when a boat comes into contact with someone on a life preserver, those on the boat do what ever they can to take hold of those floating and bring them onto the boat. They will not leave them just floating around. So with that in mind, think of it this way, If the Church is a ship on the sea of life, then all of us X's have literally been thrown off of the boat and if they have thrown out life preservers they have steered the boat in such a way as to have no recovery. either that or they are holding it just far enough away as to taunt and say "If you just swim fast and good enough, we will try to drag you back in."
LL
Vine
Qwerty said: The kingdom and the church were both set up at the same time.
Vine said: Qwerty, how do you "prove" this statement of yours?
Very easy. The Bible says that the law was until John and then the kingdom of heaven was preached and men press into it. Then we see at the same time the church (universial church as in the body of Christ) was set up and when a person was saved they were added to it.
Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Is it "both" or "same"?
Let's not degress into semantics Vine. I clear says that "both" are the "same". Just like "both" car and auto are the "same".
"Did not the Kingdom exist before the church?"
No the kingdom started with the preaching of John as did the church.
Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
"What makes Jesus King?"
He rules in the hearts of his people.
"Can you give me the script"
A scripture what [for] what?
This message has been edited by qwertyasdf99 on Apr 12, 2008 10:50 AM
chruchill wrote: the old minister frank winger used the 2 circle story but he put the smaller circle nesr the edge of the larger circle with part of the smaller circle outside of the kingdom.
Very little phases me, but I had to read this several times with a sense of wonder. Frank Wenger must have had absolute confidence in either the gullibility of his listeners or the over-riding power of his preaching.
You would have to be either completely seduced under a spell or truly without the power of any logic and reasoning to not question if not at least notice this blatant type of engineering so obviously manipulated to neatly tie up your own belief system.
I mean, for real, is this not about as ridiculous as it gets? Teaching that the visible church is inside the Kingdom but with part of it outside the larger circle? I mean, how truly stupid or enchanted can people really be? Did God reveal to Frank Wenger that the circle necessarily needed a bulge on one side to accommodate the perfect, visible church? wow......
This presents an interesting challenge: I wonder when one would leave the Holdeman church how it was determined if they exited on the side into outer darkness or into the side of the greater kingdom?
Given the silliness of this illustration, I'm thinking it wouldn't be a wild guess to suggest he also would have described a one way entrance on the side of the greater kingdom a with only one way out: into outer darkness.
I could just carry this further and further but it's so laughable I'll just quit.
This message has been edited by Tranceport on Apr 12, 2008 10:59 AM
"Well I think we all interpret what the Bible says."
While I do have an opinion, I realize that I could error if left without the Holy Spirit and the Word. I have been taught to let the Bible interpret itself through the Spirit. That is why scripture verses are nice. Now picking which scripture to use to explain one part is difficult without the big picture. Fortunately we know the end and can back up from there.
"What is false doctrine? - To deny or ignore the cross."
Vine
"While I do have an opinion, I realize that I could error if left without the Holy Spirit and the Word."
If you are not doing the will of the father you can't know the doctrine of the Bible. So if a person is stuck in Romans chapter 7 all the Spirit will show them is how to get saved and free from there bondage to sin.
Vine
Qwerty said: The kingdom and the church were both set up at the same time.
Vine said: Qwerty, how do you "prove" this statement of yours?
Very easy. The Bible says that the law was until John and then the kingdom of heaven was preached and men press into it. Then we see at the same time the church (universial church as in the body of Christ) was set up and when a person was saved they were added to it.
Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
"Did not the Kingdom exist before the church?"
No the kingdom started with the preaching of John as did the church.
No, the Kingdom did not replace the law. The King said He came to fulfill it. John announced the coming of the King. The one that takes away the sins...
Are you also saying that the Kingdom of Darkness was before THE Kingdom?
"What makes Jesus King?"
He rules in the hearts of his people.
True He rules in the hearts of His people, but He rules because He is King. Now why is He King?
This presents an interesting challenge: I wonder when one would leave the Holdeman church how it was determined if they exited on the side into outer darkness or into the side of the greater kingdom?
Psy, I think there is a teaching somewhere (maybe in BD&P?) that states something like it is impossible for the church to expell someone 'back' to the kingdom, so it is clear they exit on the side into outer darkness.
***
I don't know what all this talk is about the church and kingdom. I think ML explained it quite well. I listened to a very interesting lecture about 'Who was Jesus?' and the speaker explained (yes, he is an extensive Bible scholar) that when the Bible talks about the kingdom of God or the kingdom of Heaven, etc. it is not speaking of a place or even a spiritual realm. It doesn't speak of 'where God rules' but 'the FACT that God rules.' 'The kingdom of heaven is like ...' means 'when God rules, this is how things are ...'
**And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.**
Vine
"No, the Kingdom did not replace the law. The King said He came to fulfill it. John announced the coming of the King. The one that takes away the sins..."
The old covenant law was done away, cast out, fulfilled and passed, faulty, decayed and waxed old (back in the first century), added until Christ, not under, taken away, ended, and was until John (2Cor 3:7,11; Gal 4:24,30; Mat 5:17,18, Luk 24:44, Act 13:29; Heb 8:7,8,13; Gal 3:19,24,25; Gal 5:18; Rom 6:14; Heb 9:1,18,10:9; Rom 10:4; Luk 16:16).
"Are you also saying that the Kingdom of Darkness was before THE Kingdom?"
There has been a kingdom of darkness from the beginning.
John 8:44 He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him.
The kingdom of God start with the preaching of John.
Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
The kingdom was sent up in the days of the Roman government.
Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
"True He rules in the hearts of His people, but He rules because He is King. Now why is He King?"
I do hold that the kingdom of God is not of this literal world. The kingdom can't be seen except by those that are born again for the kingdom of God is within you.
Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Tirone
"I listened to a very interesting lecture about 'Who was Jesus?' and the speaker explained (yes, he is an extensive Bible scholar) that when the Bible talks about the kingdom of God or the kingdom of Heaven, etc. it is not speaking of a place or even a spiritual realm. It doesn't speak of 'where God rules' but 'the FACT that God rules.' 'The kingdom of heaven is like ...' means 'when God rules, this is how things are ...'"
I would hold it is a spiritual kingdom that can been spiritual decerned, is with in you, you have to press to get into it, and it is a spiritual experience that makes you righteous and gives you peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
The kingdom of God can be seen when you are born again.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
The kingdom of God is within you.
Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
People press into the kingdom of God.
Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
The kingdom is righteousness, peace, and joy in the heart of man.
Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
This message has been edited by qwertyasdf99 on Apr 13, 2008 12:04 PM
"I would hold it is a spiritual kingdom that can been spiritual decerned, is with in you, you have to press to get into it, and it is a spiritual experience that makes you righteousand gives you peace and joy in the Holy Spirit."
'There is none righteous, not even one; Romans 3:10
Vine
'There is none righteous, not even one; Romans 3:10
Yes but there is a God that forgives and makes righteous according to the following scritures.
Matthew 13:17
For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Matthew 23:35
That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Luke 1:6
And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
Romans 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Hebrews 11:4
By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
James 5:16
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
1 John 3:7
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
"we will get there NOT based on our works, our goodness, our church, or our station in life, but by the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ alone."
AMEN!
"(Interesting, if you are who I think you are..."
I don't think I am ...
"even if they want to call it 'the kingdom'."
Admittedly, I am curious about what they (H) think, but honestly, it doesn't make much of a difference to me. I'd be sad if it severed friendships, but in the end they will be held accountable for what they say and do, just as I will, and regardless of what they may think my final destination will be, I KNOW where I'm going and it is ONLY by the finished work of Christ at the cross.
Suzi... a real coincidence the other day. An acquaintance with the same name who we had not heard from in years emailed my wife the same day, after you posted. I incorrectly put you two together.
Qwerty said: The kingdom and the church were both set up at the same time.
Vine said: Qwerty, how do you "prove" this statement of yours?
Very easy. The Bible says that the law was until John and then the kingdom of heaven was preached and men press into it. Then we see at the same time the church (universal church as in the body of Christ) was set up and when a person was saved they were added to it.
Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
Is it "both" or "same"?
Let's not degress into semantics Vine. I clear says that "both" are the "same". Just like "both" car and auto are the "same".
"Did not the Kingdom exist before the church?"
No the kingdom started with the preaching of John as did the church.
Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it."
When it comes to matters of citizenship, the Kingdom of God is no different from any other country. Remember, the Kingdom of God is not a religion. It is a government with a country. Heaven is that country, and Jesus Christ is its King. Referring to Christ, the ancient Hebrew prophet Isaiah wrote:
For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given, and the government will be on His shoulders...Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever... (Isaiah 9:6-7)
Like any other country, the Kingdom of God has the principle of citizenship. And once people know about the Kingdom, and once they understand what it is and what it has to offer, they clamor to get in. This is what Jesus was referring to when He said: The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. (Luke 16:16)
"everyone is forcing his way into it." Once people learn about the Kingdom of God, they can't wait to get in! Picture in your mind all those would-be immigrants desperately clamoring to cross the border, and then you will see what Jesus meant.
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bummer. 
