Qwerty dug this quote out of Wills stuff somewhere. So I decide to look up the bible quote in it.
Those who accept an impure Christ, born of the literal flesh of Mary, must of necessity also accept an impure church. Those who see the organized and visible church as an imperfect body also believe in an impure Christ.
When we speak of a perfect church, some people view this as tantamount to blasphemy. Yet the Bible does speak of a perfect church, without spot or blemish (Eph 5:27). The point that is being missed is that the church is not a man-made body and that it is more than the sum of its earthly members."
Messenger of Truth Article October 1, 2003
24* Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25* Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26* That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27* That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28* So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29* For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30* For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31* For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32* This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
V 24 sort of put me in a rub as a member, for it is an only one true visible church when obedience to it is required, but the "church" is the individual when the scripture seems to speak to the "organized church". This is the Jello factor whe have at various times looked and spoken of.
So lets get this straight, is this verse to the otvc? or to the individual?
Is it the "otvc church" that is subject to Christ and is a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish? And is the Church of God in Christ Mennonite (INC. a kansas Corporation) the one spoken of in our day in particular?
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Okay lets look at the administration of this "glorious and blameless" apparition spotting the pages of our present history.
in verse 24, the term "subject" means hupotasso and for history of the forum, I shortened it to Hupo, and that is where I got my first "handle" but here is what it means in the Strongs Concordance.
5293 upotasso hupotasso {hoop-ot-as'-so}
from 5259 and 5021; TDNT - 8:39,1156; v
AV - put under 6, be subject unto 6, be subject to 5,
submit (one's) self unto 5, submit (one's) self to 3,
be in subjection unto 2, put in subjection under 1, misc 12; 40
1) to arrange under, to subordinate
2) to subject, put in subjection
3) to subject one's self, obey
4) to submit to one's control
5) to yield to one's admonition or advice
6) to obey, be subject
++++
A Greek military term meaning "to arrange [troop divisions] in a
military fashion under the command of a leader". In non-military use,
it was "a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming
responsibility, and carrying a burden".
Now think people, is it is easy for a person to arrange himself to the will of the authority when one disagrees with that said will thinking he can do the job better his own way?
humm.... well maybe it is time to reach into the old Testament and find out if God gave us a shadow and type!
1Sa 15:13* And Samuel came to Saul: and Saul said unto him, Blessed be thou of the LORD: I have performed the commandment of the LORD.
God told him to do something through Samuel! He did it! only he didn't quite do it the way he was told.
Sorry for using this verse qwerty, but here it is anyway
Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
23* For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
His sin was almost imperceptible to the common man, but the spiritual man discerned his motive was to lift his authority above the Word of God spoken through the prophet.
_________________
okay, most of us know that story, so is the church mentioned in eph 5:27, the CGCM? and actually subject to Christ?
Well lets see, Christ spoke of Paul being a man given a right and obligation to "bear his name", a funny thing here because in doing our title search for the property the kids and I just bought, there was an easement granted to ours by wording in a certain deed, when the property transfered from the people that sold ours to previous owners earlier, finally sold the the subservient property to the new owners. they created the easement not when ours was originally sold out of the original parcel, but rather when the remainder was.
But that right of way becomes a binding easement forever, and as easily followed in the chain of deeding as water flows through a pipe line.
Now this wording is a deed, opening up the New Testament sealed with the blood of the testator, and deeding paul the right to "bear his name" and thus amend the "document" as written upon close for the testament.
Ac 9:15* But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Now to look at the principles of subjection and flow of authority, and it's seeming opposite "rebellion" (which is as the sin of a thing qwerty does not like me to mention preferring me to rather speak of "overbearing")
Anyway, here we are back to the fact that the CGCM, simply does not honor the bible in regards to discipline, and the authority vested to the true authority in the church, rather taking to themselves those treasures of warfare slated for total destruction, (oppression of the innocent by leaders in lifted principalities) and making claim of perfect obedience. Yet the wake of the spoils of their rebellious campaigns are a cry from this forum that reaches up to heaven and spills tears on the throne of grace.
1Co 6:4* If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
1Ti 5:19* Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
1Ti 5:1* Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren;
The wake of broken homes, and hearts and expelled people who have had their private lives destroyed by this willful rebellion on the part of the accepted but rebellious discipline in the cgcm is a cry that speaks of not being subject to Christ.
But the church mentioned in our lesson text just "is" subject, and is mentioned as a pattern for wives to submit to their husbands by!
The argument the cgcm people make, that the day is so wicked that if we dont "do it this way" (discipline by servants similar to police men in the civic arena) then the people will get away with being worldly, simply does not hold water in the light of the fact that the bible says do it a different way because God's kingdom is not of this world and doesn't discipline by threat, duress, and coercion like the world does, so it is God's problem if you obey, but your problem if you don't!
But the point I am making is that the only "true" church is those people as individuals, that have chosen to be one with the bible, and it's God, not those who have aligned with a system of flawed contractually agreed upon rules no matter which denomination it may be of.
Fred
"Sorry for using this verse qwerty, but here it is anyway"
Fred there is a difference between accusing some one of witchcraft and tell them there sin is as bad as witchcraft. Keep in mind that rebellion (willful sinning is rebelling against God) whether in you or the Holdeman ministers is as the sin of witchcraft and that he that "keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all" (Jam 2:10).
"The argument the cgcm people make, that the day is so wicked that if we dont "do it this way" (discipline by servants similar to police men in the civic arena) then the people will get away with being worldly, simply does not hold water in the light of the fact that the bible says do it a different way because God's kingdom is not of this world and doesn't discipline by threat, duress, and coercion like the world does, so it is God's problem if you obey, but your problem if you don't!"
Very interesting outlook. Will the CGCM admit to this? Is this generally par for course in every congregation?
I often have wondered why ministers in authoritarian groups are overbearing, interruptive and talk over people in counseling, domineering the conversation, are cross, impatience, raise their voice, rude, accusative, arrogant, make threats, seem to try to rule with fear, and when these actions are pointed out to them they refuse to humble themselves and admit their conduct is below the Bible standard and just snap back that you need to obey like the Bible says without questioning, or you are to thin skinned, or you have a rebellious attitude etc.
Calling people in to backroom meetings and not even offering the decency of telling them what it is about so there minds wouldn't be worried. Or worse yet refusing to tell them when they ask what the meeting is about.
The Bible says a overseer "must be... patience" (1Tim 3:2,3), Jesus told the apostles that they "must not be... exercise dominion over them" as the "Gentiles" do (Mat 20:25,26) and that those "overtaken in a fault" that they are to "restore such an one in the spirit of meekness" (Gal 6:1).
I think some unsaved people have more grace, kindness, patience, meekness in dealing with problems in the work place than many OTVC ministers. That is a terrible testimony to have for them but it appears to be true.
Why is it that when the Bible says to deal with those that are overtaken in a faith "in the spirit of meekness" do they have this kind of conduct? Is it they are just proud and blind or do they think admitting they were wrong in counseling they feel like they would loose there "authority"?
do they think admitting they were wrong in counseling they feel like they would loose there "authority"?
42* But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
43* But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:
44* And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.
Mostly my dear holiness friend the reason is they have built a principality based on the lie that they have "authority, and it needs to be defended.
How can a man that is a servant, have authority over his people that God said is his authority, without chaos and mayhem pursuing if that said authority from God, refuses to buckle under the servants authority?
>>I often have wondered why ministers in authoritarian groups are overbearing, interruptive and talk over people in counseling, domineering the conversation, are cross, impatience, raise their voice, rude, accusative, arrogant, make threats, seem to try to rule with fear,<<
Qwerty, what about CARNAL? You forgot one of your favorites.
This message has been edited by Sirius65 on Apr 11, 2008 10:42 AM
Kevin
"Qwerty, what about CARNAL? You forgot one of your favorites."
I left carnal out and put in things that I consider carnal. Typically I don't go into as much detail and just sum it up as carnal but some things I think a longer list is better. So to be interruptive and talk over people in counseling, domineering the conversation, to be cross, impatience, raise your voice, and make threats in an adult to adult conversation is to be carnal. As is making false accusations, acting arrogant, being rude, and overbearing.
Actually kevin, it isn't carnal, because honest Christians may well get caught up in being carnal,
the actual term by the bible of the "backroomers" is "reprobate"
Ro 1:28* And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Men with men in the backroom? Instead a a man getting his perspective fixed through the administration and proving of his loving and affectionate wife?
-----Reprobate
2Ti 3:8* Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
these men were lifted by God to be ministers, but they also wanted to be the priests! and were reprobate by the action
Tit 1:16* They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
When speaking of the need to ordain overseers to sit over the ministry because they tend to be deceivers, he calls them "reprobate"
it is willful scorners who will not be taught the truth
I will stick with carnal as I hold you can be carnal and still be a Christian. Also I don't hold that all carnal actions are sin as there is different degrees of carnality and those being carnal have different light and understanding.
While I don't know what goes on in the backroom of the H, I couldn't accuse those that have handled me roughly with sin. I feel like over all it has been good for me and has tested me to see what kind of grace I have had.
Other than almost causing me to have clear symptoms of the start of a panic attack I think it has been good for me. I has given me tougher skin, it has been a very good example to me of how I shouldn't conduct myself toward others that I might have authority over (wife, employees, etc), and it has given me much greater compassion for those that been have gotten the full treatment and have left or been put out of the congregation.
And most of all I can say to the glory of God it has given me a greater desire to go to heaven! I remember the day the Lord put that thought in my head. I was all stressed out and had just experienced a beating and false accusations and the Lord put in my head, "One thing an OTVC is good for is it gives you a greater desire for heaven". I ripped out a huge laugh and laughed pretty near all the way home. The Lord has such a sense of humor!
This message has been edited by Sirius65 on Apr 12, 2008 8:37 AM This message has been edited by Sirius65 on Apr 12, 2008 8:36 AM This message has been edited by Sirius65 on Apr 12, 2008 8:35 AM This message has been edited by Sirius65 on Apr 12, 2008 8:33 AM This message has been edited by Sirius65 on Apr 12, 2008 8:33 AM This message has been edited by Sirius65 on Apr 12, 2008 8:31 AM This message has been edited by Sirius65 on Apr 12, 2008 8:31 AM This message has been edited by Sirius65 on Apr 11, 2008 11:58 PM
Qwerty, I think that late last night it’s very possible you were being carnal. It’s also very possible that I was a stumbling block to you. Let me know if I was.
Also, late last night, I had a craving for something so I drank a beer. Since drinking a beer to you is carnal, I’m going to say that maybe you were a stumbling block to me.
Both you guys were tempting me to become carnal, I almost posted an empty space too just to prove I could also say nothing as good as you have learned to do, but I resisted and overcome the temptation thus I remained steadfast and did not sin!
Qwerty, I just wanted to let you know that because of you, I continued in my carnality last night. See, if you hadn’t played along in my game perhaps I’d have gone to bed earlier. Instead I stayed up not talking to you. Also I drank a beer. Now I might become bitter and offended because of you, Qwerty. If there is a God, and if, when I come to the pearly gates he asks me why I became bitter and offended, I might tell him it was all your fault. Qwerty, that means you’ll have to give an account of your carnality last night. If you offended me, it would be better if you had hung a millstone around my neck and drowned me in the depths of the sea. Now tonight, because last night’s beer tasted so good, I might have another.
Paris, instead of Qwerty trying to lead me back to the Lord last night, he played a game of one-upmanship with me. I wonder if that wasn’t carnal of him. Plus, maybe he drove me to drink, which he thinks is carnal.
This message has been edited by Sirius65 on Apr 12, 2008 3:11 PM
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