Mark
In the book for revelation it takes about a pure woman...
Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
And a woman called the great prostitue...
Rev 17:3-5 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
By those that hold the historical view of Revelation (that it is the history of the church), they would say that the woman clothed with the sun is the true church and the woman which is the mother of harlot sects is the false chruch.
In the following scriptures the false church has cause the people to commit spiritual fornication with her.
Rev 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Rev 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
Rev 18:9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
So when Esau sold his birth right of a short pleasure of the flesh that was considered spiritual fornication.
The Greek word that is translated fornication or fornicator can be translated immoral as it takes in not only fornication but adultery, incest, homosexuality, and beastuality.
So another way it can be translated is immoral but still it would be meaning sexual immorality and in this case it would be applied spiritually.
Here is how the NASV translates it.
Heb 12:5 that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal.
I think we miss the main point of what was the issue. Don't you think if he went to his mother or Jacob and asked for food that they would not have prepared him food for free? The issue was he "thought" he had to "pay" for what he needed.
When we think we need to "do" anything, (including the rules you have repeatedly posted or keeping the 10 commandments) to find acceptance or favor from God, makes us a fornicator.
The Bible warns us of not going down that road. I don't know how much clearer it has to get.
This message has been edited by freeNdeed on Apr 12, 2008 9:28 AM
"I think we miss the main point of what was the issue. Don't you think if he went to his mother or Jacob and asked for food that they would not have prepared him food for free? The issue was he "thought" he had to "pay" for what he needed."
He just didn't want to wait. He was a person of the moment and Jacob took advantage of them. He wanted to feed his flesh NOW and traded this brithright to do it.
"When we think we need to "do" anything, (including the rules you have repeatedly posted or keeping the 10 commandments) to find acceptance or favor from God, makes us a fornicator."
That is amazing if you believe that. If I understand you correctly those that feel like they need to keep the commandments of God are fornicators. And those that live in sin and don't keep them are the children of God. That is confusion at its best. God forbid but next I expect someone to tell me that we need to "sin that grace will abound".
Mark your position reminds me of a simular position I have seen people take. I have had religious sinners tell me that I am deceived and not saved because I believe that God has the power to keep me from sinning and by the grace of God I have experienced that. They use 1Joh 1:8 to support their position.
So if I am obedience and live with out disobedience by the grace of God, I am decieved and on my way to hell while the realigous sinners that love their sin and confess they are sinners saved by grace, or not perfect just forgiven, are saved and on there way to heaven. I can only call this confusion.
"The Bible warns us of not going down that road. I don't know how much clearer it has to get."
Well if you feel like you need to heed that warn would that make you a fornicator seeing how "When we think we need to "do" anything, (including the rules you have repeatedly posted or keeping the 10 commandments) to find acceptance or favor from God, makes us a fornicator"?
That is amazing if you believe that. If I understand you correctly those that feel like they need to keep the commandments of God are fornicators.
Yes I do.
Mark your position reminds me of a simular position I have seen people take. I have had religious sinners tell me that I am deceived and not saved because I believe that God has the power to keep me from sinning and by the grace of God I have experienced that. They use 1Joh 1:8 to support their position.
I would never say, that just because a person has an area of deception in their life that it would remove their salvation! I stated before we all live in a level of deception.
Thats how GOOD the grace of God really is!
This message has been edited by freeNdeed on Apr 12, 2008 2:02 PM
Mark
Qwerty said: That is amazing if you believe that. If I understand you correctly those that feel like they need to keep the commandments of God are fornicators.
Mark said: Yes I do.
That is amazing if you believe that. If I understand you correctly those that feel like they need to keep the commandments of God are fornicators.
Jesus said to enter into life you must keep the commandments
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
The ministers in Jersalem gave commandments that the Gentiles to keep
Acts 16:4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.
Paul said to keep yourself pure
1Tim 5:22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.
1Tim 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
James taught to keep yourself unspotted from the world
Jam 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
John said the way to know if you know him is if you keep his commandments
1Joh 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
Perhaps Mark I need to ask you that question again.
You feel like they need to keep the commandments of God are fornicators? What of Jesus, the Jersalem ministers, Paul, Peter, and John?
This message has been edited by qwertyasdf99 on Apr 13, 2008 8:57 PM
Perhaps Mark I need to ask you that question again.
No Problem! Maybe it will finally dawn on you how wonderful it is to live in the freedom of Christ.
You feel like they need to keep the commandments of God are fornicators?
Absolutely! Not even a question in my mind!
What of Jesus, the Jersalem ministers, Paul, Peter, and John?
Show me anywhere in the scriptures where any of these characters kept the commandments, did or did not do anything in order to find their acceptance or their right standing with God other than believe. Paul reproved Peter harshly when he wavered.
Again, Esau thought something was required of him to pay for life. He could have just asked and it would have been a free gift. But no, he did what so many do. They feel if they pay a price or "do" something God will see the sincerity of their hearts. It is detestable to Him. Some just cannot comprehend how good our father really is.
May I ask you a personal question?
I know you know God as your Saviour, Redeemer, provider, and etc.
Do you know Him as friend?
This message has been edited by freeNdeed on Apr 12, 2008 2:05 PM This message has been edited by freeNdeed on Apr 12, 2008 11:48 AM
Mark
"No Problem! Maybe it will finally dawn on you how wonderful it is to live in the freedom of Christ."
Freedom to sin? Freedom to be disobedience? I am not interested in that kind of freedom. I was looking for freedom from my sinning problem.
"Do you know Him as friend?"
Yes I feel like Jesus is the only one that really understands me. I talk to him through out my day and share with him my problems, needs, wants, victories, faults, failures, etc. Jesus is my best friend and if wasn't for him I would be in a back ally hanging off a crack pipe or in jail or in hell.
This message has been edited by qwertyasdf99 on Apr 12, 2008 7:54 PM
Yes I feel like Jesus is the only one that really understands me. I talk to him through out my day and share with him my problems, needs, wants, victories, faults, failures, etc. Jesus is my best friend and if wasn't for him I would be in a back ally hanging off a crack pipe or in jail or in hell.
I'm so glad to hear that. I have read your testimony and in no way do I want to be a discouragement in your quest and love for Jesus. I would rather be an encourager and a cheerleader than a negative energy in any persons walk.
After thinking about this thread this evening I regretted even starting this thread. I just came to the computer to delete it and I just read your comments and they touched me.
I want to say, if your walk with the Lord has you following a list of things to do...who am I to question it. I am sorry for any pain I may have caused you with this or any other thread. It just goes to show that no one walk is the right way but each one needs to walk as they are led by the spirit.
This message has been edited by freeNdeed on Apr 12, 2008 8:38 PM
If Mark is espousing a "religion", Brent, what is it that you preach? How have you managed to get by without grace? What about that...occasional...glass of wine you have? Aren't you in effect committing the same sin as Noah when he so inadevertently allowed imbibing to lead him into a couple of the ultimate sins, fornication and incest. Where does grace end and works begin for you?
Please don't take this as an attack or necessarily as a defense of Mark, although I find his posts in this thread very thought provoking. Something I've wondered is that you don't seem to believe in grace and yet apparently assume there is plenty available for you. If I have that all wrong, my apologies. Please explain.
Touching post, Mark. I was wondering why people without H background post on here, but it has just been shown why. Thanks for your contributions (and Qwerty's of course although I don't seem to have time to read them...).
"If Mark is espousing a "religion", Brent, what is it that you preach? How have you managed to get by without grace? What about that...occasional...glass of wine you have? Aren't you in effect committing the same sin as Noah when he so inadevertently allowed imbibing to lead him into a couple of the ultimate sins, fornication and incest. Where does grace end and works begin for you?
Please don't take this as an attack or necessarily as a defense of Mark, although I find his posts in this thread very thought provoking. Something I've wondered is that you don't seem to believe in grace and yet apparently assume there is plenty available for you. If I have that all wrong, my apologies. Please explain."
Adiel,
Grace to me is when we struggle, not saying generally speaking there isn't grace when we don't struggle, but that it squanders away instead.
I don't hold myself back from overindulging because I'm controlling it. That's to much a dead end street.
I do not think it refers to him as a fornicator but as a profane person who sold his birthrite for a portion of meat. Let No man be a fornicator or profane person like Esau
Howie7
Well my opinion is that the birthright is what the whole thing is about.
Few people sit down and consider the things of authority and birth order, and even fewer consider the profaning of their right to get a "piece of bread" (communion wafer) as somting that is out of order.
When I was younger, just after the earthquake in Santa Cruz, I bought a house that was in it's day a relatively expensive one. That house had a foundation made of green treated poles, the action of the quake left the house racked, and ready to fall down.
To put the house back up required lots of cribbing, we placed stacks of timbers criss crossing each other in the side of the hill, and under the house. When we got it to the top we lifted the house and put a round that would slide when pressure was applied.
When it was all set and up, and ready to move back to place, all we did was put in a come-along at the right place and the house slided perfectly back to place.
_____
No my point is, that the church systems that are pressuring people to become spiritual fornicators, are like that cribbing system and come along
They get everything in your life in order and then "pressure you to move"
The failure to move when pressure is applied is the thing that sets in order the expulsion from the group.
Paul clearly taught us to stand fast, and "quit ye like men" but the church systems that are off base teach submission to lesser authority.
Lev 20, 3* And I will set my face against that man, and will cut him off from among his people; because he hath given of his seed unto Molech, to defile my sanctuary, and to profane my holy name.
Most people don't realize the utter abhorrence that God has toward "willful" submission to a "contracted" or agreed upon king.
Molech
04432 Klm Molek mo'-lek
from 04427, Greek 3434 moloc; TWOT - 1199h; n pr m
KJV - Molech 8; 8
Molech = "king"
1) the god of the Ammonites and Phoenicians to whom some Israelites sacrificed their infants in the valley of Hinnom
To willfully place yourself under the authority of a "king" is to profane the name of God and makes yourself a spiritual fornicator.
That is why the ministry of the holdeman people is so evil, for the New Testament grants the kingship to the family and individuals, and the people in leadership are subject to them
But the leaders are thieves and robbers
Of course this in nothing new
Mt 21:13* “It is written,” he said to them, “‘My house will be called a house of prayer,’ but you are making it a ‘den of robbers’.”
And the elders in there with vision, mourn under the robbers leadership, since there is simply no way to turn it around without walking away from their family.
Ac 15:29* That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
Fornication:
4202 porneia porneia {por-ni'-ah}
from 4203; TDNT - 6:579,918; n f
AV - fornication 26; 26
1) illicit sexual intercourse
1a) adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse
with animals etc.
1b) sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
1c) sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,12
2) metaph. the worship of idols
2a) of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the
sacrifices offered to idols
_______
Heb 12:16* Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
4205 pornov pornos {por'-nos}
from pernemi (to sell, akin to the base of 4097); TDNT - 6:579,918; n m
AV - fornicator 5, whoremonger 5; 10
1) a man who prostitutes his body to another's lust for hire
2) a male prostitute
3) a man who indulges in unlawful sexual intercourse, a fornicator
______
Notice that fornication and fornicator are both "sexual terms"? but the fornication was the "selling" of the birthright!
Now if we honestly consider the importance of despising our authority and obligation to the authority granted to us by God, and also realize that God calls it fornication, and then compare that with the alleged "bad spirits, foreign spirits, supposed heresies and other phony reasons people are removed from the H. Which of these principles are more important to God?
I simply cannot put a head covering into the same importance as the profaning of the obligation to be the leader!
It is not apples and oranges, rather straining at gnats, and swallowing camels!
Howie7
"I do not think it refers to him as a fornicator but as a profane person who sold his birthrite for a portion of meat. Let No man be a fornicator or profane person like Esau"
Heb 12:16
Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
I considered that when I first looked at this scripture. There is a way in Greek to tell where both the Greek words for fornicator and profane are applied to Esau but I am not sure if I know how but here goes.
The words in Greek have there relations expressed syntactical by case endings. Adjectives (in this case of profane) will agree with the noun (in this case Esau) in case, number, and gender but I am not sure if that applies for nouns relating to nouns. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language
So we see in the above that the Greek word translated profane has the same case, number, and gender as the Greek word translated Esau. The Greek for fornicator is also nominative, singular, and masculine but I am not sure if that means it is related syntactically or not. I will have to ask a Koine Greek expert and go over this again. I have found out how this works before but I forgot.
Personally I think the Greek will support that the Greek word fornicator is applied to Esau each Adam Clarke would was an Koine Greek language expert would note that.
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