A while ago I was contacted by a couple who has had a daughter ‘stolen’ by the Holdemans; with their permission, I am sharing parts of their story.

By way of background, the family lives near a Holdeman community. The family is Christian (they would self-identify as conservative/fundamental Christians). The daughter, “Melanie”, is over 18 years of age, so she is legally an adult. She has moved from her parental home and is living with a Holdeman couple. She is not yet baptized, but all indications are that she will be shortly. Recently they met with one of the local Holdeman ministers and his wife.

I am posting portions of their reflections on the meeting since we agreed that the story should be told.

“Here is an update on the meeting we had last night with a Holdeman minister “George”, his wife, and Melanie. In writing this, we will try and be fair and accurate and not exaggerate. Until you actually meet with them on a level where you are discussing them taking your own daughter...you would never know the power they hold. The purpose of the meeting was to present to us that Melanie is wanting to be baptized into the Holdeman church and would we bless her. That was the last part...

The first part was a very friendly (overly sweet) visit and chat about life. Then at about 9:45 we said we needed to go home and he said the night was still young and besides he had a question for us. He popped the question about baptism, and we said we absolutely could not support it, and no we would not attend it. We said she had already had a believer's baptism and we did not believe in baptizing INTO A CHURCH. We would not attend the baptism because to attend it is to support it. (of course, this looks bad in their eyes)

We went into detail about what we believe the Scriptures say about obedience to parents...that the Bible has no age limit on that (they agree if it's in their own circles)...but that a parent should be able to bless a young man or woman as the Lord directs their calling and leaves. They told us she had to obey us "in the Lord" (Ephesians 6:1), but they don't like to use the verse in Colossians 3:20 which says "in all things". Which, when taken in context with Scripture against Scripture means that as long as the parent is not asking the child to do something against Scripture, they should obey in everything.

They indicated very strongly that we are NOT in the Lord; that we are deceived. Melanie no longer has to obey us because we are deceived. They said we were Pharisees because we insisted that 'obey' means to 'obey'. He gave the example of the Pharisees and the adulterous woman...we said yes...the Pharisees also had a bunch of made up additional rules. Besides, he totally took this passage out of context. (Surprise?) We even read them two of their own quotes from their doctrine book about children obeying their parents...no defense of age came up when it came to their own children...the only stipulation was that we were not following the Holy Spirit...therefore we were not in the Lord. He said we were being legalistic with that Scripture. We told him that it didn't make any sense that following what it actually said in Scripture was legalistic...divinely inspired words are legalistic???? Then loving the Lord our God with all our mind, soul, heart and strength doesn't need to be followed...he said that was different. We said we didn't see any where in Scripture that we HAVE to wear Black shoes, or black beanie caps. Those are man-made rules that they follow to the letter. Legalism???

We told them that we don't believe in blindly following ANYONE. We believe in searching things out. We said we were disappointed in what we learned about the Holdeman and that we definitely believe they are a cult, especially after how they manipulated our daughter. (Even more now after the meeting!!). We said that they violate Scripture with their excommunication and avoidance in a marriage as directed to the spouses to not withhold themselves from each other except for a SHORT mutually agreed upon time of prayer and fasting. That wives are to reverence their husbands (Eph. 5)...avoidance is reverence to the 'church' NOT to the husband...in fact, it brings dishonor and disgrace...it is evil.

They told us we were listening to offended people. (We told them we had talked to many people who had been in these circles and left ~ we didn't give any names) We told them that just because someone doesn't agree with them doesn't mean that they are offended. Some of the people may be dealing with deep hurts and some things may be exaggerated, but that doesn't mean there is no truth in them. In fact, with the consistency of the stories there is much indication that the stories line up.

We were accused of being Pharisees...legalistic (because we said that everything MUST line up with Scripture), of being offended, not being 'in the Lord', being unstable (Personally, we believe that expelling and dividing families as they do, brings more instability!!), we had the wrong spirit, we had hurt egos cause Melanie chose 'them', etc. He even told us to go home and think about this for awhile... he cut off our conversation because it was getting too uncomfortable for him because we were insisting on the backing up of beliefs with Scripture.
You could tell that he was battling being upset at us (they are not supposed to let their emotions get out of control...they can be very unreal!!).

He asked us how many churches we have attended indicating a cause for instability. We told him that 3 of the churches we left primarily for Melanie's sake. We also said that there are hundreds of families that have stayed in one church all their lives and yet their children go off and down a different path than their parents...it has to do with a child's heart. Stability does not come from a church, it comes from a family with parents that love each other and who have a strong love for the Lord.

He kept stating that Melanie followed the Holy Spirit's call in her life...we kept bringing him back to the fact that the Spirit and the Word are one...that one does not contradict the other. So if 'the spirit' is telling us to do something that is against Scripture than it is NOT the HOLY spirit but a different spirit. That goes for all of us...not just Melanie.

We had prepared for this meeting and with Scriptural backing told them things that concerned us and that we disagreed with. He said there is one faith, one baptism. We said yes...that is into the Universal body of believers of which there are from diverse backgrounds and denominations. He said if they don't agree with their 'faith' they are not of THE faith...we said there is diversity among the Holde's too. In fact, there are conservative/liberal splits...there are Holde churches where several families have left and started new ones...that to us is the same as evangelical churches having splits, etc... They are no different. He didn't like that much at all.

We let them know that we believe they are a cult...because of their dealings with Melanie and others...They let US know that they don't believe we are Holy Spirit led…and with out outright saying it...that we are not even Christians.

Having been involved in the occult as a teenager, I have, not ever then felt the presence of evil as strong as I did last night. We are dealing with the powers of darkness...Melanie is duped into a very evil thing. It is much worse than we thought. They have an 'appearance' of being holy but... they twist Scripture very badly and evaluate everything against their own standard. Our other children will not go near them (they had wanted us to take all our children...not a chance). Melanie is still welcome and hopefully she will still come this Saturday for her sister's birthday. She is solidly duped and ONLY GOD will be able to draw her out. Please do not stop praying for her. As someone else once put it, her Holde glasses need to slip for a brief second so she can see the deceit and lies. Please pray, our dear daughter is very taken in by them. Any response or encouragement would be welcome.”

Ask Brent this is all here say and should not be discussed on this forum.
What this girl does is of her own chousing .
There is no trickery on the Holdemans part thy have explained it
completly .
So leave it alone .

Rebel, you ought to listen to such stories, and consider the similarities in other's experiences. The Holdemans also robbed us of a son. They baptised against our wishes - we actually wrote to the minister asking that they not baptize him. He was nineteen at the time, and they went ahead. I kept thinking how protective they are of their own children and the impact such an act (against the parents wishes) would have on them. We are not alone. There is another family we know who lost two sons and a daughter - and the family moved to save their remaining children. These are very dangerous people who have no hesitation to break up families. Some of you, like Rebel, will say "quiet!" and "wrong!" but we are certainly not wrong and we need to be vocal and alert others to the dangers.

Reb,

What are you going to do, stick up for the religious world that caused Melanie to see something in the Holdemans she liked? See Reb, you can't win for losing, can you? Everyone points their fingers, but everything has a cause. Be sure your sins will find you out. Oh my!!!

Brent

The most disturbing thing about this story is that Melanie has not done enough of her own Biblical study to make a sound decision for herself.

"The most disturbing thing about this story is that Melanie has not done enough of her own Biblical study to make a sound decision for herself."

But religion is what hinders that.

Brent

Right you are. It's always one more thing that is lacking. Stick around the religion and you will always find yourself to busy to hear God.

I for one can say that I believe the minister is out of line by being so defensive. Why? Have the parents lost all rights to their daughter?

I would like to have more background information on this story so as to make an informed decision. My question is, what are the events that brought her to the H church and is there a reason why she is leaving her parents and does that bother the girl to see that she is going against her parents wishes?

>>Then at about 9:45 we said we needed to go home and he said the night was still young..<<

Why did it take so long to pop the B question?

>>They indicated very strongly that we are NOT in the Lord; that we are deceived.<<

>>They said we were Pharisees..<<

>>the only stipulation was that we were not following the Holy Spirit...therefore we were not in the Lord. He said we were being legalistic with that Scripture.<<

Look at all the judging.

I could not feel good about being so resistant to her parents.

When I think of this story, I find it sort of fascinating. First off, they will "baptize her", and I agree they should, for it should be consenting adults that contract into a club, however they should also fully explain what the "unspoken rules' are, including kissing the preachers buttox, which I am sure they will not clearly explain.

Exactly what she sees in there is not clear, but it is probably fairly handsome, and a hardworking young and mostly 'controllable" guy, that she has the hots for. If not that, she must be reacting for a hidden but known sin in one of her parents. (some unconfessed abuse perhaps)

Happy, and healthy kids from a good home, simply do not lightly rebel against their parents wishes,

if it is a boy they end up getting married, and she sees the light and comes back out.

They cant hardly keep outsiders once full disclosure is understood.

If it is a reaction to a certain abuse, the glory wears off, when she sees the truth that even the perfect holdies are not what they seem.



May God richly Bless your day!

Brent

Why is it wrong for the Holdimans to get new members any way thy can ??

You do not want any one to stand up to them about there ball faced

lieing . You say it is here say , when I want to tell the truth about

the Holdeman God's .

So what ever thy are doing or not doing with this woman is here say .

You have no wight to speak about how deseptive or not the Holdeman's

may or not be .

If there is deception at least her parents are looking out for her .

But any thing thy say can be just here say . Why should you trust

any thing some ones parents say , thy may have a agenda , just as the

Holdimans .

Just don,t let the tricker trick you in to beleaving here say .

Actually, Rebel, it's neither 'heresay' or 'hearsay'. (The Holdemans arguably are in heresy, but that's a whole other topic). The story, as posted, apart from the names being changed, is exactly how it was written by the young woman's parents. Since they themselves were the ones visiting with Preacher 'George' it can't really be hearsay...

Both the Parents and the Child are in my prayers. Yes I have no doubt that it is a Power Trip by some of the leaders. I do not think arguing with them, The Ministers, The Young Adult or the Parents is going to help much. We just have to be there, Pray for them and for Guidance, and perhaps be there to help pick up pieces if necessary. Mt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

I see a set of parents who are absolutely scary in how they completely disregard the wishes of their own daughter. There is not one shred of consideration for her desires in their talk with George. I don't blame her for wanting to hike off on her own trip. Maybe she will come back later maybe she won't. But she is clearly taking a step away from parental bondage and into what she sees as freedom.

I aplaude her.

Doyle,
Would you give your child the freedom and blessing if they would desire to leave the H church?

As a parent I would have to accept that my child is an adult and is responsible for the choices he makes. My job is to train up a child in the way he is to go, and then love him enough to release him and let him grow.

If the situation was reversed and my adult child was leaving the H church, would you recommend that I try to control him like those parents are doing?

What do you know about this girl ??
Can she read , good ???
Does she comprehend what she reads ??
Has she been abused ??

Some one may go down the wrong road if thy can not read a mape clearly .
So if any of this aplies some one must step in and mentor her , lest
she be lost .

I personally know the girl in question here, she is an extremely bright child, and there is no doubt in her mind what she wants to do. It is her decision, and in my opinion she is being used as a pawn by both sides of the situation.
As much as I don't approve of her decisions, they are ones she made on her own.

Where she came from and where she is now is really not that different, she is being controlled and undermined in both arenas. She has lived a very isolated life for someone aged 19 and is looking to socialize and connect with others who believe like she does.

She researched the Holdemans for months before she decided to join them, this was not a decision based on ignorance, however, the reality of the holdeman church and the way it appears in writings may be a bit of a shock to her once she is on the inside. She strongly believes in the one true church and the excommunication doctrines. She is doing what she feels is right for her at this time and involved with the scariest of mentors.

My heart breaks for this girl, and her family. Lets remember to pray for them. She is a beautiful human being who has a real desire to know God and walk with Him. Lets pray for her and her journey, not with an agenda but sincerely praying that God will bless this family, and shower them with unconditional love and knowledge of His Grace.

Thanks Grace

How would we feel thow if we knew she could not read ,there for study on
her own ?

Would we want to reach out to her for her wrong desisions , any more ?

So yes at this point all we can do is pray for her and hope the
holy spirit will intervine and have her make the right desition.

The only ‘good’ thing in this story is the fact that the young lady is at least eighteen years old. Having said that, as a parent, I can’t imagine what it would feel like to watch my adult child make what I would considerto be the mistake of a lifetime.

Semper Fi

I have been reading this dialog with interest, because in some ways the story parallels my own and that of others I know. I am wondering who we think we are to say that God is not in this situation from the beginning to the end. We look at things from our point of view and God looks at them from a whole different scheme of things. I remember when I talked my parents into going back to the H church to attend again, I was 15 at the time. My parents ended up joining the same time I did and stayed for 10 yrs. a total record as they were never anywhere longer than 3 yrs otherwise in my lifetime. every once in a while when my Dad gets on a roll, he starts in on how he should have never joined the H and how horrid everything is and I stop him right there. How can we say that everything H is bad, It is not. Yes, there are some issues that are creating severe problems all over the country, yes, some of them seem to have their heads buried in the sand, yes, there are some bad things that have happened to many of us and we have suffered some serious setbacks and hardships. But are we really suffering more than the world around us? how many of us got married to an H spouse that really want to sit here and say my spouse is really horrid and I cannot believe what a mistake it was, without recognising that if we chose a bad one that we might have done the same thing had we not been H.

Personaly I would not trade my man in for another, nor would I trade in my son-in-law, and daughter-in-laws either. are they perfect? not really. Are they beautiful people to know? without a doubt. I have 7 children that are H, only 3 are married, and I have soon to be 7 grandchildren that are being raised H. I have a daughter that is making her life teaching H children how to read and write. Am I sorry? No. There are sometimes attitudes amongst them that I wish were different but they are loved by H and non alike.

There is one among us here, that I remember well when his wife's family joined the H. They got married as H, Now he is out and has been for a long time. I seriously doubt that he wishes his wife had never joined the H and they were not married, He has a beautiful family.

I wonder if we do not need to learn to take the good with the bad more and recognise it's place in our life.
Are there things that are H that I wish would change? without a doubt, Do I wish them all ill? never?
What would I like to see changed? The attitude that persists the WE(H)are the only ones that have the truth, we are right and you will always be wrong unless you see it our way. If you do not bow to our standard you are not teachable at all, I am not required to consider that you are right in the meantime.
And one of the foremost is watching the older folks turn into creatures of pure habit that are so set in one way that they cannot make any allowances for change in their lives and are turning into very dour, sour looking somber, sober people with no joy evident in their life. It instantly takes away any desire of wanting to spend the rest of my life in that arena. I want to spend my days in the true joy of the Lord, no matter what my physical, financial, spiritual circumstances in life are. I want to die with a smile on my face.

I think that praying for this family that God would be there in whatever manner he needs to be and for whatever reason he sees fit to have the situation go would be the best thing for us to do.

Love and prayers, Locklady

I agree with your balanced thinking, Locklady. If this girl is 18 already and intelligent then she can decide for herself. If she doesn't like it after she gets to know them better, she can leave. Who are we to say she won't love it? I have decided that some people love being Holdeman;for whatever reasons-and she could be one of them. I hope when our children are that old I have the grace to step back and honor their decisions. I don't think parents should be that controlling with religion at that age. Being a Holdeman could be part of what God has planned for her at this point and later she could move on. Parents aren't right all the time..I don't want to have to find out before God someday that I royally screwed up AND took our children with me.

Locklady...That was a fabulous post! Wisdom once again, I've come to count on you for it...Optimism at seeing the glass half full, and totally believing God is who He says He is! Bless you, dear!

Very interesting and also sad story.
Not just sad for Melanie but also her family.
I would not recommend any one joining the H church.
But on the other hand I’m glad no one stopped me,
From joining the H church either.

We all learn best from own mistakes. And if she
Is an adult with a sound mind and reasonably educated.
Then it’s her choice to join any church she wants.
As sad and frustrating as it is to watch her do it.
This is a free country and we all have the choice to
Live and do what we want as long as it’s legal.

And to say the Hs stole her, or it’s a cult are a bit harsh.
As bitter and offended as we may be at the H church.
There are a lot of good people in the H church.

There is great power in prayer, so pray for all,
People involved that they can do Gods will.

>>I don't want to have to find out before God someday that I royally screwed up<<


So, cupcake, what is the real reason that you still cling to the doke. Do you think that it’s a salvation issue or are you just hedging your bets?

Yep, Kevin, just hedging my bets! Covering all the bases... females are good at it! lol!

>>If this girl is 18 already and intelligent then she can decide for herself.<<

>>I don't think parents should be that controlling with religion at that age.<<



I agree, cupcake, but listen to what you say right after that.


>>I hope when our children are that old I have the grace to step back and honor their decisions.<<

What kind of a decision do you think they’re going to make when you send them to school and Holdeman doctrine is basically force fed to them. After eight hours of exposure everyday and twice on Sunday who do you think they’ll believe, them or you?

Isn’t it hard for you to send them off every day knowing they will be taught lies?

I'm curious,Kevin,as to the lies you think they are taught? Do you feel you were taught lies as you were growing up and what were they? Do you think they have any more lies to overcome than if they went to a public school? Do you think the basic decent morals they learn are good for anything? Do you feel that the way you were raised has made you a better person for life or do you think if you would have been raised completely different that you would have the morals/values that you do today?

Hmm... what can we learn from the prodigal son? Remember.. the son came to his father wanting all of his inheritance.... the son could have chosen to use it wisely and done well, however, we hear of him using the inheritance poorly and doing horribly. The prodigal son ended up returning to his father and repenting of his sin.

So.. why shouldn't the parents let the daughter have her freedom to choose? If she uses the freedom to choose wisely it will end up being a blessing to her and her parents can rejoice with her. If she doesn't choose wisely, than the parents will have shown they love her regardless of her choices and she will know that she can return to them. (By this, I am not saying rather or not it is a good decision for her to join the H church. Her joining the H church could be a growing and maturing point for her.)

>>I'm curious,Kevin,as to the lies you think they are taught?<<

For starters, the OTVC lie. Do you believe that one?

>>Do you feel you were taught lies as you were growing up and what were they?<<

Yes, that the religion that I was being raised in was special and every other one was wrong.

>>Do you think they have any more lies to overcome than if they went to a public school?<<

I don’ know. There are other alternatives than public school.

>>Do you think the basic decent morals they learn are good for anything?<<

What does that have to do with them being taught things that you yourself believe are false?

>>Do you feel that the way you were raised has made you a better person for life or do you think if you would have been raised completely different that you would have the morals/values that you do today?<<

Better than what? Better than my next door neighbor? Better than a homeless person on the street? I don’t think I’m better than anyone. In that school they sure try and teach the kids that they’re religion is better, that’s for sure.

Cupcake.. I think those are some good questions... although they can be somewhat misleading. For example.. if you had a child who came from an absolutely horrible background, abusive, etc. and someone asked them,

"Do you feel that the way you were raised has made you a better person for life or do you think if you would have been raised completely different that you would have the morals/values that you do today"

They could very easily say.. yes.. the way I was raised has made me a better person because now I know exactly what NOT to do to the people I love and care about. They could also say, yes, if I was raised completely different I could still end up with the same morals and values that I have today.

Hope you can see what I'm trying to say. It's really a matter of what a person chooses to do with what has been given. They can choose to allow God to use all things, good or bad, for good in their life.

>>For starters, the OTVC lie. Do you believe that one?<<

We really don't. Do you think it's bad to stick with a group and disagree with a doctrine but not be vocal about it?

>>Yes, that the religion that I was being raised in was special and every other one was wrong.<<

I hear you there. As far as I can tell, our children do not feel that way and they say so. We have hammered that one home to them a lot. I'm not so stupid though that I can't see the way it can be ingrained in them subtly.

>>What does that have to do with them being taught things that you yourself believe are false?<<

I'm only pointing out that they do learn how to be basic,good kids--for what that's worth. The standard is high on conduct,i.e.,lying,cheating,getting along,sportsmanship,respect,etc. We deal with the false things as they come up. I'm sure you run into things with your child that you try to correct at home.

>>Better than what? Better than my next door neighbor? Better than a homeless person on the street? I don’t think I’m better than anyone. In that school they sure try and teach the kids that they’re religion is better, that’s for sure.<<

I was meaning simply a better person than you would have been if you hadn't been taught any morals. I do not feel better than anyone either but I think some of the standards I was taught growing up have made me better able to deal with life/marriage/children,with less selfishness than I would have had otherwise. In this,I am not necessarily meaning religious training but it does all go together to a certain degree.
As far as teaching the children that the H religion is better,yes,I think that goes on way too much but here I have to be careful because we discuss this quite often with our children and they know we feel strongly on this but don't I need to be careful then to not teach them that we are better than the Holdemans? It's easy to get into that also. In all fairness,some H members deserve bashing more than others (I'm probably not wording that correctly) but some are happy,decent people so after we try to point out a more balanced view on religion,what else can we do but respect their decisions as they get older? Just because we are unhappy with some things doesn't mean my child will be so how can I completely influence them that everything to do with the Holdeman world is wrong? Could I not get skewed viewpoints just like they can? Is any one way of life better than another for all people? We are all different and we are all happy in different places in life.
I'm not in any way trying to be ornery,Kevin--just things I think about a lot. I want to be happy and I want our children happy and they might find it in a different place than I do.

>>Do you think it's bad to stick with a group and disagree with a doctrine but not be vocal about it?<<

I don’t know, cupcake. If I said yes would it make any difference.

Doyle, in his response to the question of what he would do if one of his children were to choose to leave the COGICM Inc., said:

>>As a parent I would have to accept that my child is an adult and is responsible for the choices he makes. My job is to train up a child in the way he is to go, and then love him enough to release him and let him grow.

If the situation was reversed and my adult child was leaving the H church, would you recommend that I try to control him like those parents are doing?<<

The thing is that if one of his progeny were to make the decision to leave the apron strings of Holdy Momma Church, and 'go so far as to join another church', not only would he (be required to?)hold the avoidance on his son or daughter (for the rest of his life), Doyle would also have to stand up and assent to the curse placed upon all those who dare to leave the Johnny Holdeman Club, i.e. deliver the child to Satan, as per the excommunication ritual of the COGICM Inc. So, would he do what 'Melanie's' parents are doing? No. He'd do something far worse.

>>Do you think it's bad to stick with a group and disagree with a doctrine but not be vocal about it?<<

Cupcake, I think that is a very personal question and the answer can change over time. When I first started questioning things in the CGCM I felt (not conciously) that I was not mature enough to speak my convictions. There came a time though that I was not comfortable just going along with those lies so I had to speak up. For myself, I think it is wrong to support lies, but I won't put convictions on other people. I hope you follow what God tells you to do each step. Someone once wrote that it is a sin to know to do something but don't do it. So if you know you should not keep hiding your convictions but you do because of fear or whatever reason, that is a sin.

I'm glad to hear you are trying to teach your children the truth, regardless of what the school is also teaching them. I'm sure that will give them a balanced view of life, but will they feel secure knowing their parents disagree with the church they cling to? Maybe it isn't safe to say you disagree with the CGCM. I don't know you and I haven't followed the forum enough to get to know your convictions. Maybe it is only one or two things you disagree with and maybe the amount of items you disagree with matters as to how far you go in voicing your convictions. Anything I say in this post is in no way meant to condemn you but rather encourage you. These are just things to think about, and like I said, I don't know where you are in your journey - I just hope you follow your convictions, and if that is to speak your convictions, don't be afraid - or I should rather say, let yourself be afraid, but be courageous to face those fears.

**And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.**

The thing that bothers me about this story is not so much whether or not the parents and the girl have the right relationship, or whether or not, at 18 years of age, she has the right to make choices for herself. The thing that I choke on is the story of the Holdepreachers making small talk for the entire evening and then when the real subject is raised they do their usual job. I have seen this so many times and it is so sickening.

"They indicated very strongly that we are NOT in the Lord; that we are deceived. Melanie no longer has to obey us because we are deceived. They said we were Pharisees because we insisted that 'obey' means to 'obey'. He gave the example of the Pharisees and the adulterous woman...we said yes...the Pharisees also had a bunch of made up additional rules. Besides, he totally took this passage out of context. (Surprise?) We even read them two of their own quotes from their doctrine book about children obeying their parents...no defense of age came up when it came to their own children...the only stipulation was that we were not following the Holy Spirit...therefore we were not in the Lord. He said we were being legalistic with that Scripture. We told him that it didn't make any sense that following what it actually said in Scripture was legalistic...divinely inspired words are legalistic???? Then loving the Lord our God with all our mind, soul, heart and strength doesn't need to be followed...he said that was different. We said we didn't see any where in Scripture that we HAVE to wear Black shoes, or black beanie caps. Those are man-made rules that they follow to the letter. Legalism???"

This kind of arrogance is sickening.

cupcake, your concern about royally screwing up and inflicting your mistake on your children is a real concern, I suppose. You said that some people "totally love being Holdeman". I guess if "being Holdeman" is the main concern, then you have a point. However, if being a true Christian is important to you, along with being willing to bear whatever reproach comes along with that, is your concern, then you thinking here is quite shallow. Cupcake-like, if you will. There might be a time for becoming spiritually mature, for being ready to do what you must, and let the chips fall where they may. Jesus didn't say that we should "be Holdeman" or "be Amish" or any other denominational designation. He said we should be willing to suffer for truth. If I'm not mistaken earlier this winter you mentioned that in a member's meeting your husband's "condition" was brought up and you and he sat and listened as the minister outright lied about him. Correct me if I misunderstood you. Did you buckle, and decide that comfort, social life, and "being Holdeman" were more important than integrity, decency, honor, and truth? Just wondering. I don't want to be mean to you here, I know what it is like to be where you are, but this kind of deception scares me more than making my way in the world with only the Holy Spirit and the Word of God to guide me does. Hope you don't take offense.

Melanie might have to make her mistakes, but I doubt she will get out of it as easily as just changing her mind some day. She will no doubt be married and tied in tight. She might start to have doubts, which will have a negative impact on her marriage and she will either try to back out at any cost, or she ill bury her doubts and become a false person. How in the world can anyone recommend anything about his group? A nice lifestyle is not worth the lies and deception that a person has to become willing for.

This stuff is some of the hardest things in the world to deal with. How to train up a child in the right way, so that when he is old he will not flee from it. How to train them up to be what God wants them to be, not just to fulfill some ego minded dream of our own. Life is full things to trip us up and side track us in so many ways. My heart goes out to all the K's and Cupcakes among us that are trying to teach their children that there is a higher road we all must take to get to Heaven and also to live a true christian life on earth, and that just following along to a bunch of man made guidelines is not going to cut it. Not saying that those guidelines do not have a purpose, but what does not have a purpose is making rules for others to follow and not following them yourself. It is a very hard thing to teach your child that we do not act this way in our house and have them go to school and suffer hard things because of the rules you have made. I know one mother that had to call school and tell the teacher to not let the children sing a certain song that had come to school under the auspices that a certain student had wrote it. They were all enthused and singing it every where they went. unfortunately it was the theme song from a movie a few years ago that was not a good movie and this mother nearly had a fit that her children were singing this song like it was a great thing. She felt bad about ruining the fun, but at the same time said" I cannot with a free conscious let my child do that."
Keeping an open way with your children goes a long way to keeping a realtionship with them thru thick and thin. what we have gone thru in the past years has been some of the hardest things there are to deal with and yet we have tried very hard to not be condemning of our childrens convictions and still explain why we have ours. Keeping that open way has allowed us to keep a close relationship with our children that would otherwise not be possible given our circumstances. But none of it has come easy and it all has a price somewhere.
But we must keep in mind that the while the goal may be perfection on earth the ultimate goal is a Heaven to gain and a Hell to shun. and to take our children with us the heaven, that is the only possession that we can take with us.

Love and prayers, Locklady

I strongly believe that many or even hopefully most of the people in this Church are Saved Born again Christians. However I do believe than some or many of the leaders will be held responsible for following there desire for power and following the group. Rather than really searching out what God really wants for them.
For years I would have been thrilled if my Children were to have joined the Church that I was excommunicated from twice. It was only after I became willing again to join and I told God that I would do anything he wanted for me that he showed me that this "True Church" had some real flaws and that to join was not in his plan for me. At least not at this time and likely never. (I like to follow God's leading day by day.)

I am lucky enough to live 2 hours from the nearest Holdeman Church but most of my relatives except my offspring and staunch Holdeman's.

I am a strong believer in Prayer and we do need to pray earnestly for them. We do need to speak up when God Prompts us and if we earnest pray for God's guidance he will prompt us to do that when he wants us to speak.

And just like when we feel it is time to Fire and Employee or Evict a Tennant if we earnestly pray before taking action He will lead us through it.

>>cupcake, your concern about royally screwing up and inflicting your mistake on your children is a real concern, I suppose. You said that some people "totally love being Holdeman". I guess if "being Holdeman" is the main concern, then you have a point. However, if being a true Christian is important to you, along with being willing to bear whatever reproach comes along with that, is your concern, then you thinking here is quite shallow. Cupcake-like, if you will. There might be a time for becoming spiritually mature, for being ready to do what you must, and let the chips fall where they may. Jesus didn't say that we should "be Holdeman" or "be Amish" or any other denominational designation. He said we should be willing to suffer for truth. If I'm not mistaken earlier this winter you mentioned that in a member's meeting your husband's "condition" was brought up and you and he sat and listened as the minister outright lied about him. Correct me if I misunderstood you. Did you buckle, and decide that comfort, social life, and "being Holdeman" were more important than integrity, decency, honor, and truth? Just wondering. I don't want to be mean to you here, I know what it is like to be where you are, but this kind of deception scares me more than making my way in the world with only the Holy Spirit and the Word of God to guide me does. Hope you don't take offense.<<

VS,do you feel like nobody can be a true Christian in the Holdeman church? Do you think God calls everyone out of this church who truly wants to be a Christian?
As far as me being a shallow thinker--two years so far of mental and emotional anguish to the point of being in medically termed major depression in someone who has never been close to being depressed doesn't came from being a shallow thinker.
Did you feel God showed you very clearly in a short amount of time that you had to leave the church to live your convictions? In some ways,I think it would be easier to have it cut and dried but I have not found it that way yet. As a lot of you know,when you made the decision to leave and take your family with you,it was pretty major,right? Would you have done it without clear direction on it? I personally am not going to throw our children into that until I know without a doubt that it is God's will and there is going to be direction and good results down the road. So far,there are too many things that are cloudy and at this point I am trying to heal my mind so I can move on. I realize too that someone like myself may come across as the sort of person who you want to tell to **** or get off the pot and I can understand that. But I am not asking or wanting sympathy in any way,this just happens to be what my life is right now and it could be for us it will be a gradual change.
As far as what the minister said when my husband was exed;yes,that did happen but neither of us were there at the time. We heard about it later and talked about it with some others and another visiting minister did bring this to him,but I never heard any more about it and after losing confidence in him,and deciding to let it go and get over it,I really don't care what he says. It doesn't matter. We are by far not the only ones that don't have confidence in him and he will have to face his problems eventually-either here or later. What good what it do me to go confront him about it and hang on to my wronged feelings? I have no interest in getting all bitter and twisted. I've been through that already and it made me miserable and I was the loser. There will always be those leaders that twist and distort truth to look good. If and when I leave the church,it is going to be quietly. That's enough stand for the truth in my opinion. I,like most that leave,will never convince anyone that they are wrong and it's a waste of time to turn it into a power struggle. All this talk of standing for the truth and stating your convictions and having multiple visits with the staff to try to convince each other who is more spiritual and who has the light is....stupid. The more that gets said the more fodder there is to get twisted and gossiped about and we always come out the losers in their eyes.

Cupcake, I pretty much accept people for who they are and where they want to be. If you enjoy the trappings of the holdeman lifestyle so be it; enjoy it!

My concern (if I knew you and it was actually any of my business) would be on the mixed messages passed on to your children.

As an honest person, it would be very difficult for me to stay closely linked to a group in whom I have very little confidence and disagree with much of what is taught. By teaching my children that while I choose to live according to the "doctrines" of a group but having to explain that I don't really believe them myself would seem very confusing.

By watching movies (mentioned in your posts) while having my children be taught that this is sin would seem to further that confusion. I use movies as an example because you've mentioned them; I don't know what other lifestyle choices you partake in that would be seriously questioned by the staff.

On the other hand, if you hide these "things" from your children, you would be teaching them dishonesty, while espousing the "honesty" and other virtues taught by the church.

Cupcake, I would challange you to be true to your convictions. Riding the fence only produces sever saddle burn. It might be time to seriously commit your life to the holdeman church and her doctrines or consider the alternatives.

I'm sure you could find true happiness in either decision, but only confusion by staying in the middle.

 

Locklady,
>>Keeping an open way with your children goes a long way to keeping a realtionship with them thru thick and thin.<<

That is so very true.

"Cupcake, I would challange you to be true to your convictions. Riding the fence only produces sever saddle burn. It might be time to seriously commit your life to the holdeman church and her doctrines or consider the alternatives."

Peter,

I pretty much agree with your post, but I want to point out something about your quote above that when a Holdeman is committed to the church on this forum, this site has a terrible history of railing on them; and when a Holdeman member here speaks openly against the church, they're considered cool.

So Cupcake's inconsistencies aren't any worse then other forum writers inconsistencies.

I don't believe for a minute that most writers here can respect a true Holdeman. The archives of this forum tell a different story.

Bent

Cupcake, keep this one thing in mind, whatever you do has to be the right decision for you, your husband, and your children. God must remain first and formost in it all. Some of those that say decide and get it over with forget that they decided by leaving to live their own life and had to find their way back to God later. Others forget that the decision to leave was not made by them, but by controlling men on an ego trip. Like apparently has been done to your husband. What you go thru in your decision to leave has a purpose even though some of those looking on don't think so. We struggled thru more than 14 yrs and raised our children as H thru it all. They are still there and for the most part they have found a place in life for themselves and their families. The ones that are struggling are dealing with the same people and conflicts that we have dealt with all these long years. the ones that have moved elsewhere are being blessed and finding life a blessing. A minister once told our daughter that the best thing we could do was move away from this place because, as he said "even Christ was not accepted by his own." But we have not felt like that was what God wanted us to do and we have tried to leave and so far it has not worked out for us to do that, so where does that leave us? But a few months ago, it worked out for us to quietly leave this cong and go elsewhere and that has proved to be a real blessing to us and feels to be the right thing for us. We have found a church home and also a bible study that is a place of refuge.
I could ask for the rest of my life why it took so long to leave, but also why did I have to leave? Why couldn't I live my life in the H and serve God the way I felt led to? There are simply too many unknowns in the equation and God knows it all. Had I left yrs ago I would have missed out on so many friendships that I made amongst the H even while I was X. So many occasions to meet someone on a journey that was often like mine, even ministers in struggles. I still have H friends that I visit with regularly and we remain true friends. Maybe God would have had something else even better for me, or maybe I would have screwed up even more than I did the way it was and lived a very selfish life instead, doing my own thing because I didn't need anyone else telling me what to do. I pray for you that you can see God in this journey and know that even when it feels he is far away that he is near enough to hear the faintest whisper of a prayer.


to the rest of you.
Please remember when you tell someone that they are really doing the wrong thing, it may not be the wrong thing for them for now. It may be that God knows their heart much more than we do and they need time to get their bearings and to be able to let go. None of us goes at the same speed thru the same life situations, because while we have some similar things happen to us, it affects each of us personally in a different way and we are each on our journey in a different place. Some folks let go simply because they like the challenge, others see letting go as being thrown off a 200 ft cliff with no life rope. Allowing those that are going thru a struggle to be able to articulate and talk about it here without being condemned would probably go a long way in helping them sort out their feelings and probably be a help to all in the whole scheme of things. A few drops of the oil of Love will mend far more broken hearts than hammer knocks.

Love and prayers, Locklady

****later

Okay, I'm going to throw another side of this out. I know a little of this story and I have to say I actually do not blame the daughter at all. Her parents set her up for this.
They raised her very conservative, very critical of normal christian churches. They taught legalism in the home (the headcovering, long dresses, etc) and kept the children sheltered from society (homeschooling, home churching sometimes, etc).
So this girl probably always felt like an oddity, the one poor thing in the store with the covered hair and long bulky clothes. Being homeschooled with just your siblings and seeing your parents always looking for a group of christians who were "as close to the truth" as they were will serve to isolate you very much.
So when this girl met the Holdemans they must have been a breath of fresh air. She found a group who wore the headcovering that she had been taught was vital to christian life. There were a large enough group of them that her social life could now emcompass more than just her family. They held to everything that her parents had always taught her was right. They shunned normal christians just as her parents had. Unfortunately she probably had been taught more outward appearance doctrines than factual doctrines and was unable to recognize the false Holdeman doctrines.
This girl is only doing what her legalistic parents taught her- finding a group "even closer" and shunning what you just came from.

Hi cupcake, didn't mean to get you so upset. I don't think you are shallow. But you can get used to the idea that if you come here riding the fence you will get confronted about it. I went through the same thing, and so has locklady. I had no idea what I was even doing til I started getting called on the carpet right here. I was still thinking there was no escape from them and yet very angry at what had happened to me. I finally realized I had to either go one way or another, mainly for the sake of my children, and you will find the same thing to be true. Being in the church and yet disdaining most of their foundational teachings will not teach your children to respect you or what you are doing and will eventually bring forth a fair bit of rebellion, I would venture to guess. It took a very long time for me to find a way to move on, and locklady probably knows the same thing, it is something noone can make you do, and no one but you knows when the time is right, or if it is right. My children sustained a great amount of damage, and we are putting the peices back together, and anyone can, if they are willing to be honest and take chances. God will never leave you without help, but sometimes he pushes you to the limit. All in all, I find it is the way I perfer to live. Never could take the easy way!

I didn't make the decision to leave, I was unceremoniously cast out, like locklady, and fought for at least 10 years to get back in. To tell the truth, I doubt I would have ever made the decision to leave if it had not been made for me. I wonder if it would have ever really occurred to me that it was a decision that needed to be made. And yet, it it quite possible that it was my unsuitability for the system that brought me under their microscope. So, don't think I am really being critical of you for not making different choices. However, I noticed you make comments like "Do you really think no one in the CGCM is saved?" This is totally unconnected to the idea of whether it is right for me, or you to be in it. There are saved people all over the place. God is quite good in that respect. Not nearly as hateful and judgmental as many of us tend to be! The issue is whether or not you are being true to yourself, being all you can be, and showing your children a path of nobility and character. I don't know how highly you regard those things. For me, they ultimately became the only thing. Now, I didn't start out that way, so why should I ask anyone else to. It simply came about as I fought my way through the hell of it for 10 years. It has now been 17 years, and I have just recently started to feel like I have a life and a place where I fit in. Does that sound like a strong recomendation for doing it my way? Probably not, but when it is all said and done, I wouldn't change a thing. I am so glad to be rid of those clowns I would probably go through it all again. That it the thing that gets me fired up, thinking about how they play with people's lives, how dishonest they are, how controlling and how infantile in their thinking. And then to see that otherwise intelligent people perpetuate the system by being too scared or unmotivated to move just irritates the dickens out of me. But as I said, I didn't make the decision for myself, and I'm not sure I ever would have. So, just my 2.00 worth!

April I have to agree with you at least in part. In the area that we live in there have been a lot of different families that become plainer and plainer constantly looking for the perfect church. and more legalistic as they go. I grew up changing churches on a regular basis. I did not find it a stable place to be and that is one reason that I did not start church hopping when I was put out of the H. I had 7 young children that needed some stability to their environment. I have watched families leave Catholocism, jews, and many other things and go to a plain environment and then head the other way again. Or Amish end up at the far end of the scope. it confuses everyone around them actually. I watched my parents go the whole circuit with my mom never going back to makeup and fancy clothes but when she died and my dad remarried, my step mom is about as far from plain as you can get. She has a real hard time understanding all us plain folks.
We watched a video awhile back about some Hutterites that got saved in some Holdeman tent meetings and their struggle to leave what they grew up with and what direction they will go from here. I don't have a clue if they will end up Holdeman but it would be right down the alley they would tend to go because the structure is so much the same.
I agree with you that it would be a place of safety for that girl because it will give her a place where she can be what she has been taught to be and not feel totally alone in that state anymore. It is going to have to be a decision she makes and learns to live with as best she can. I just pray that she can learn to trust God first and formost and not try to follow every manmade dictate that comes across the board.
Sorry H guys, I spent too many years trying to do everything you all told me to do. But I have to tell you that you do not even agree with each other and I simply turned into a major basket case trying to be obedient to everything I was told. It is humanly impossible.

Love and prayers, Locklady

VS,

Good post for your experience, one I can understand.

Brent

I simply turned into a major basket case trying to be obedient to everything I was told.

Welllll now, I'll just have to take your word for it


It is humanly impossible.

I completely agree.

Cupcake, one of the hardest things for us when we made the decision to leave the H was to realize and understand that we were not always "wrong" in our thinking and questioning. If we asked questions we were told we were decieved. When we pointed out inconsistencies we were told that we were critical. I wont tell you what I think you should do because I dont know you and I dont know your situation, and besides my advice is no good because I am deceived. Dont follow your emotions but do follow your heart(together with your husband) That is a much better guide than someone else's opinion, whether H or not.

I smell a made up story! I guess I better call my folks and make sure that they know that the Holdies snatched me away too!! They were sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo nice and then they dropped the bomb........(insert pause for maximum drama and suspense !!!!!!!!!!!!!) ..........................talk about baptism. Whoa!!!!! I think some of you need to find a new hobby. You are wallowing around in mire trying to fling it on others but you are the only ones getting dirty. Maybe I'll look at all the vicious responses to this post when I get bored sometime and need some light entertainment. Yep they stalked me like a lion does a gazzelle and then trapped me. For 15 whole years they have had me "trapped". Poor me.

 

I'm a travelin man!

Just so you know, TM, it is not a made up story. I wish it was, but it's not.

TM coppin an attitude are we? You must be real busy lately, don't see much of you anymore. You must be hanging out with all the nice folks. not the ones that walk up to you and purr " You poor little deprieved thing, it is so horrid how your parents are and how you had to grow up." I have always been glad to see how you turned out in spite of your self. I am always amazed when I see how people grow up and become something useful when one dispares that they will ever have a head on their shoulders that will work right. been seein it a lot lately in a bunch of young people from all walks of life. must be something in the air.
It is encouraging, to me especially when you see on the news all the statistics of things going the other way, to see that there are some folks that are growing up and working at being responsible christian adults.

Love and prayers, Locklady