Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
(KJV)
These are the verses that the Once Saved - Always Saved base there argument on. But when we look at
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
So what is the conclusion of the matter? What are your thoughts?
No man can pluck us out of the Father's hand, but maybe we can leave of ourselves? Don't go by what I say though as I am the one who knows the least about it. From experience, since I have fully put my trust in the Truth, it seems like it would be impossible for me to forsake that. Before, when it was more of an outward practice, I could easily see it would be possible for a person to lose faith.
**And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.**
Romans 11:29 states that "God's gifts and his call are irrevocable." Isn't salvation a gift? I believe it is a gift that we may choose to receive, or choose to reject. Surely if someone truly accepts the gift of salvation, their life would show it, but I don’t think that is the most important point. Whether their life shows change or not, who are we to judge the heart of man?
I find it interesting that most people opposed to the idea of the “eternal security” or “once-saved-always-saved” doctrine usually refer to it as “once-saved-always-saved.” This way it much easier to make it sound like a ridiculous idea. Those who believe in it refer to it as “eternal security,” and place its importance much higher on the proverbial “ladder.”
It seems to me that those who support eternal security tend to view God more as a “Loving Father” while those who oppose the once-saved-always-saved way of thinking view God more as a “Righteous Judge.” Both views of God are present among both groups, but I think the scale is tipped a little more to one side, depending on which side the individual falls on.
What makes this debate so interesting is that individuals from both side of the isle have equally weighted arsenals of bible verses and hypothetical scenarios to fling at each other. I believe that in the end it comes down to how YOU as an individual view God, and how much integrity YOU as an individual have in your relationship with Him. Eternal Security is scorned because 9 times out of 10 it becomes a crutch, or an excuse for people to rationalize sin in their lives. It was never intended to be such. It was intended to show GRACE -God’s Riches At Christ’s Expense.
A man moved to a new town and was getting acquainted with everything. When he wanted to go for a haircut, he found out that the local barber was also the pastor of the Baptist church. It so happened that the day he went for the haircut, the pastor was out and his wife, Grace, was cutting hair that day. He went ahead and got a haircut, and decided to splurge and have a shave as well. The next morning when he went into the bathroom he noticed his face was still as smooth as the day before when he had the shave, and it was the same the next day and each morning for the rest of the week. He thought this was odd, so he went to the barber shop to inquire what exactly had been done to his face. The pastor was there that day and after he asked what his wife had used on his face when she shaved him, the pastor simply replied, "You were shaved by Grace. Once shaved, always shaved."
2 Cr 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Where does it say that you lose your salvation in that scripture? I take it to mean that if we sin after we know Christ then the consequences of our sin may be worse or we may feel worse about it after we know better, and the Holy Spirit corrects us but no where in that scripture does it refer to
"losing your salvation".
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2 Peter 2:20-22
20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
(King James Version)
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This message has been edited by pariskat... on May 23, 2008 8:02 PM
Paris, I believe in being eternal secure, knowing where you are going. I have a hard time believing that a person who truely accepts Jesus as their Saviour would leave it. I had someone who was a Baptist explain that if a person continues the way they were before, they never were saved. She was referrig to Gal. 6:19-21. What do you think? Tirone said it well. Since we can't judge anyhow, it really doesn't matter how we believe in it, as long as we know where we are going. calledoutPTL
Calledout, How do you all explain 2 Peter 2:20-22???
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
The first thing you have to consider is that this was written to "first century" people so what did it mean to them?
They(the Jews)were made aware of the good news of Christ's gospel. The world they entangled themselves in again was the sacrificial law. What Peter is saying here is that once they know better yet choose to go back to the law ultimately the wrath of God would come upon them. (the Roman war against Jerusalem in A.D.70)
Vine, are you referring to Rev 21: 1-2 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down from God, out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.?
Mark wrote: They(the Jews)were made aware of the good news of Christ's gospel. The world they entangled themselves in again was the sacrificial law. What Peter is saying here is that once they know better yet choose to go back to the law ultimately the wrath of God would come upon them. (the Roman war against Jerusalem in A.D.70) -----How does that fit in with 1 Thess 1:10? And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dea, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come? ----That wrath is still comming. All the verses concerning the wrath of God have not happened yet. One verse says the mountains were to be found no more and we still have mountains. smile calledoutPTL
Calledout, How does that fit in with 1 Thess 1:10? And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dea, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come?
1 Thess was written before 70 A.D. Thus the wrath was still future.
----That wrath is still comming.
It was coming (future)until after 70 A.D.
All the verses concerning the wrath of God have not happened yet.
That is where you and I interpret the wrath of God differently. I would say it HAS happened in 70 A.D. aka the Roman War against Jerusalem
One verse says the mountains were to be found no more and we still have mountains.
Jesus repeatedly said his kingdom is not of this world...that is a physical kingdom. The mountain of which He spoke was the Jewish system that was in place at that day.
Many difficult passages of scripture come alive with meaning, when you understand the spiritual meanings behind what we tend to interpret literally. That is what makes the bible such an incredible treasure chest.
I've gotta rag on you, you haven't read the book I sent you, did you?
Strated reading it, but haven't finished it, Mark. Found some things I don't agree with smile. Too many things haven't happened yet to make that war you mentioned the wrath of God. So far, I haven't met anyone or read about who knows when to take the Bible literally and when to take it spiritually yet. LOL calledoutPTL
Mark about your theory about the wrath of God being past. Wouldn't the Jews say the wrath of God was then?? Some people may say that with China's earthquake that is the wrath of God. The wrath of God isn't on the christians. There is the wrath of God on the nations and the wrath of God on Lucifer. I feel both are comming. Satn is still at work, all though some of his work can be bound. When he is thrown in the dungeon, he will be bound for 1000 years and there will be peace for the earth then. Here I'm ragging on you!! LOL calleodutPTL
It is amazing if you follow the Israelites from Egypt throught the Bible the Many miracles God preformed, Yet it seemed in a few years they would be serving other God's Back and Forth many times. It amazes me too when I think of what God has done for me. Yet other things can lure me. I think the key is we must remain focused. We must communicate every day, Possibly many times a day. And yes we must make a living, and live from day to day but if our #1 priority is to serve our Lord, Then nothing can pluck us from his hand.
It sure doesn't look like this verse advocates onece saved always saved.
26* For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27* But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
I understand that verse to mean that some people take the gift of grace and turn it into a sort of blasphemy. Have you ever heard anyone say that they are saved but they are gong to live this life to the fullest and not look back? I have and I have even heard one woman say that she is going to live her life just as she pleases and before she dies she's going to accept Christ, kind of like have your cake and eat it too concept. Well in those cases I think that maybe someone might be blaspheming and for that I think that verse applies.
Personally I think if you think your not saved then you should do something about it. I'm not perfect and I sin,,, sometimes even willfully but I do believe I am saved and always will be. see you in Heaven..)
I'm not giving my gift back and I don't have a clue as to how Jesus would take it back if I still wanted it. Although I realize He could, I just don't see it supported by scripture very well if at all.
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This message has been edited by pariskat... on May 26, 2008 9:45 AM This message has been edited by pariskat... on May 26, 2008 9:39 AM
Paris, my take on that verse is that blasphemy is the sin that can't be forgiven. I don't think an unsaved person can blaspheme, because in those verses, it says that you have taseted of the heavenly gift of the Holy spirit which is the communicator between God and you. You can't "know or taste of" the Holy Spirit without being a believer. That is when I say a person can walk away from God. All the willful sins can be forgiven. Repeated sins such as fornication are forgiven. The reason I say that is when God forgives you, the sin is thrown into the sea of forgetfullness and God don't remember it again. That is our God for us. calledoutPTL
If Christ died for all sins, past and future, than how can a Christian’s sins not be forgiven? Surely to beg God for forgiveness every day is the same as crucifying Jesus on a daily basis. On the cross, Jesus said “It is finished”. Why try to complete a finished work, especially something that we are incapable of comprehending?
If you become a Christian and repent of only the sins you have committed up to that point, you have not recognized the sacrifice Jesus made on the cross. If you believe this, than surely Jesus only died for those that were living at the time and those who lived before Him.
However, if you become a Christian and repent of ALL your sins past present and future, surely the sins you commit tomorrow will be covered by Christ’s blood. After all, Christ died for the sins of ALL mankind, past present and future. By acknowledging that you are a Christian you recognize that He died for future sins. How is it so hard to believe, then, that he has forgiven YOUR future sins?
Paul states that we have the “freedom to sin”, but why would we? We are a new creature. As long as we live on this earth, we will never be free FROM sin, but as Christians the power we have (Through Christ) is the freedom TO sin. What a beautiful oxymoron, made to confound the wise. Only by accepting this can we achieve that peace that beyond understanding.
>>Joe,
After all, Christ died for the sins of ALL mankind, past present and future.
According to my calculations you have just smashed the barrier of 99% and easily sailed into 100% <<
Ok Mark while that all sounds well and good isn't there a scripture that talks about how the Gospel must be "presented to all the earth" before it can be considered that Christ died for ALL mankind, past present and future.
After all it's not just a free for all,, it has to be presented and accepted and reflected to "all mankind" right? or at least most of mankind.
And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Cr 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Cr 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
The message of reconciliation we are to give to everyone is that you are no longer an enemy of God. There is nothing you can do to disappoint him.
Reconcile is an accounting term. If your checkbook is reconciled how much are you in debt? I say that is GOOD NEWS to people who "think" they are far from God. How could you not fall in love with a God like that?
Paris, I don't think that verse is speaking of issues of anger, and personality traits that are common to man.
More I think the verse is speaking of a willful and real sin, that causes one to gloss over their conscience.
Like adultery, drunkenness, using pharmaceuticals for thrill, sexual or spiritual abuse ect.
We are not to pray for grace over willful sin, but rather start over, and actually repent again, for if we sin on purpose then we have no sacrifice, for Christ said to go and sin no more. But our sacrifice in Christ is in tact if our sin is not willful and deliberate. So the sacrifice for our sin still atones.
I don't think this forum is going to come to the final conclusion of which is closer to biblical understanding, Calvinism or Arminianism. This has been debated for centuries. This discussion here is part of the difference between those two trains of thought.
As I see it, when you think the debate through to the end (as most Calvinists put forward); both arrive at the same place. The only way you can know for sure if one is in Christ is if he/she is living "the way".
"Trust and Obey, for there's no other way; to be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey".
Paris- I guess in some ways we are just saying the same thing in different ways. You said "He did die for all of mankind who make a choice for Him." I like to think that He died for the sins of ALL mankind, regardless of whether they choose/chose to accept Him. With that being said, I do believe that one must recognize their lost state, accept the gift of salvation, and allow Jesus to transform their life in order for someone to be saved.
Are we saying the same thing?? this is how I'm going to leave it for myself,,
Jesus died for all mankind and for the forgiveness of all sin past present and future for those who accept Him as the gift of grace and believe that He is the son of God who was given as a sacrifice for those sins.
For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves:
it is the gift of God.
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