I don't know if it says anywhere that they were perfect, but wouldn't they have been sinless? Of course, if they were not sinless, then does that mean that God created sin?
Okay Mark, I’ve been reading a little and haven’t found where it is written that they were perfect. But it does say in Geneses 1:27, “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.” What does this mean, that humans looked like God? Or were prefect like God?
Then on to verse 31, “And God saw every thing that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.”
Did God create sin, and if so, was it also very good?
why man was created to always be at war with one another? War even started in Heaven. The first human killed was Adam's son by his other son. If God is perfect then why did He allow or create war?
but wouldn't they have been sinless?
Sinless? yes Perfect? No
Gen 1:31 And God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very GOOD. Notice he did not call it perfect.
The tree they were not to eat from, was knowledge of GOOD and evil.
Of course, if they were not sinless, then does that mean that God created sin?
They were created sinless, and no, God did not create sin. He gave a commandment and wasn't it their disobedience of the commandment that created sin?
Kevin,
Sorry, I did not get back to you sooner. I was so busy watching the lame walk, the deaf hear, and sight restored.
Okay Mark, I’ve been reading a little and haven’t found where it is written that they were perfect. But it does say in Geneses 1:27, “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.” What does this mean, that humans looked like God? Or were prefect like God?
The answer is given in the verse. Male and Female; The ability to reproduce (create) See Gen 5:1-3 Vs 1 uses likeness instead of image and vs 3 uses both words to show they are interchangeable.
Did God create sin, and if so, was it also very good?
GM, why man was created to always be at war with one another? War even started in Heaven. The first human killed was Adam's son by his other son. If God is perfect then why did He allow or create war?
Kevin,
You have had me in stitches more than once tonight. I don't know when I have laughed as hard and long and over and over as tonight when I read and re-read your posts. You are absolutely hilarious!
GM, 99%(or whatever)of the human race would land up in hell
Where in the whole wide world do you come up with a figure like that?
I need scripture for that one too.
In the parable of the lost sheep 99% were in the fold and the 1% he went out till he found it.
Don't you think that parable is trying to tell us something about God? According to that parable all made it in.
Well Mark, let me put it to you this way. The Bible says that no sin will enter Heaven. And .."srait is the gate and narrow the way which leadeth unto life and FEW there be that find it." Maybe it's my Holdeman teaching but how many people do you think will meet those qualifications?(that number I quoted is just a wild guess)
GM,
Those verses you quoted have no reference to life in the hereafter. It is in the context of the here and now. Few there are that truly live the abundant life that is prepared for those that avail themselves to it.
How do you read the parable of the lost sheep any other way?
A parable is basically an illustration, right? I don't know how I would equate that parable to a real life application, but if all the saved people seen a person going astray, they would leave their comfort and safety and go and do their utmost to save the lost one.
That could all be, Mark. When I was young and growing up I heard so many sermons(especially at revival time)about hellfire and judgement(pounding the pulpit and almost screaming) that it scared the bajeebies out of me and I have struggled my whole life to see God as a merciful and loving God. Around ten or twelve years ago the ministers decided(conference decision?)that it was wrong to preach that way and we don't hear of it anymore.
Also, continuing with your reference to the ninety and nine parable, after I became a member(H)I seen all this expelling(kicking people out of the church and turning our backs on them)and I could never figure out how that action converted to love and compassion, as in 1 Cor. 13. If the ninety and nine are supposedly safe in the fold, when do we see them going out the the expelled one to do their utmost to bring that one back to the fold, or to Christ?
Mark,looks like I'm getting off topic. I can start a new thread if you want.
This message has been edited by GMman1 on May 25, 2008 7:45 AM This message has been edited by GMman1 on May 25, 2008 7:17 AM
To me, the parable of the 99 sheep and the 1 out of the fold, is an example of how much Christ loves us. He doesn't want any of us to not to follow Him and does His best to help us. I have seen no scripture to make me thnk otherwise that the 100 were believers and one wandered off on his own. Christ goes after the one to bring him back, cause he still was one of his sheep. Notice, there was no punishment, just healing ointment. This not a church situation in my estimation though. calledoutPTL
GM,
No need to start a new thread. These are things that should cause us to scratch our heads and wonder...if my views are perverted. We have for years tried to compress God into the box we have made for him to live in.
I have an idea! Why don't we just forget about the box.
Mark makes a good point of many believers who do not live the abundant life. I am reminded of 1 Cor. 3:10-15;
"No other foundation can anyone lay then that which has been laid... now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one's work will become clear and the fire will test each one's work of what sort it is... if any one's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."
The scriptures are clear that we can and should live a life of joy and be an inspiration to others, but as believers we can also blow it with wood, hay and stubble... lose out on blessings but be saved.
GM,
Those verses you quoted have no reference to life in the hereafter. It is in the context of the here and now. Few there are that truly live the abundant life that is prepared for those that avail themselves to it.
Mark, I would say that is definitely a false interpretation. Let’s take a look…
Matthew 7:13-14
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
“Enter ye in at the strait gate:” Note that the word “strait” is used here. The word “strait” points to narrow, as well as a position of distress. It is the opposite of broad, as defined below. It causes man to come to his knees, and realize that the ONLY hope he has is in Jesus. There are many that do not believe in a God who would claim to be living a fufilled life, in earthly terms. I believe the gate referred to here is Jesus. He is the only Gate that leads to life (eternal life that is, for there is no other type of life that this word could really mean). In order to go thru this narrow gate, we must confess all our sins, completely repent of all our sinful ways, and vow to follow Him faithfully from now until eternity. As long as we are obedient to Him, he will keep us in His care. But note, not only is the gate strait, but the way as well.
The only other “gate” is the one that opens up to the broad way/path that leads to destruction. “broad” in this passage has at least the following meanings: liberal; tolerant; unconfined; free; unrestrained; not detailed or specific. “Destruction” in this passage can only mean eternal destruction, for what other destruction is worth noting? The mind of God is of eternal things in these verses, not earthly and temporary situations. To turn this into an earthly thing is a false doctrine.
It is referring to abundant life? That is the only life in Christ there is to be lived then, according to these passages. Note, only TWO ways are signified by this passage, the one that leads to destruction (hell), and the one that leads to life eternal (heaven). To come up with another meaning for these terms of life and destruction appears to have it’s roots in Agnosticism to me. Is there a reason that wouldn’t be so?
No man can serve two masters. The two masters we have to choose from are God, or the Devil. Ultimately, one of those two have control, no matter what the outside appearance looks like.
LOL great question, I'm thinking most of us think we can do a little better then they did and thats what motivates us to try. If we succeed at even one we are doing better then the original models did...not too bad considering.
Hank, my take on that verse is even different then yours. smile. I say that anything done without the Holy Spirit telling you to do it, is hay, wood, or stubble. Because then it is the fondation of something else then Christ. But of course it might mean the same as what you say. smile. calledoutPTL
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