I visit a site called http://exchristian.net/ from time to time. I recently ran across a post that easily could have been written by me several years ago when I started to “come out” as an agnostic to my wife and family. This person pretty well sums up my mental process and experience. I thought I would post it here to see if anyone would care to comment.

Stan


I really need some encouragement and feedback right now. I've recently become an agnostic, and, while I'm not afraid of what happens after death (if anything), I am afraid of how my wife and family will respond (I'm not brave enough yet to tell them of my change of heart and mind).

Anyway, the process of reasoning my way out of belief began when I realized that I couldn't bring myself to go up to someone of differing belief and tell them that I am absolutely right, and that s/he is absolutely wrong. Such a claim would be groundless.

My line of thought goes like this:

1. Religious belief is founded on fundamentally irrational assumptions (that there is a god, that a particular scripture is literally true, etc). With irrationality as the source of religious truth, anything can be claimed to be true, and anything claimed to be true based on irrationality is equally defensible and refutable using reasoning corrupted by irrationality. Therefore, religious belief should not be synonymous with absolute truth.

2. The apologist may counter this by saying that there are many good reasons to make the irrational leap of faith. But if you review them carefully, the reasons commonly given (design in nature, coherence of scripture, "look all the intelligent people who have been believers," etc, etc, etc.) are all applicable to one or more OTHER religions as well. Therefore, none of the reasons commonly given for belief are good reasons, and do not justify a claim of absolute spiritual truth.

3. The only good reason I see for belief is if one has had a mystical experience of a spiritual/divine nature (that can't be explained by epilepsy, an acid flashback, or simply a very emotional experience as a result of intensely wanting to see god).
However, while this establishes spiritual truth for the individual, it cannot be used to convince anyone else of this subjectively experienced truth. Further, belief is irrelevant if one has had a spiritual experience, since faith/belief is unnecessary in the presence of experience, so once again, belief seems to me to be invalid and groundless as an act and state of mind.

I'm not an atheist. I can't prove there's no god, nor can I prove that there is one. I refuse to squeeze 'truth' out of irrationality, have no good reason to believe, and I have not had a spiritual experience. I am therefore agnostic.

I think that agnosticism, based on this line of thinking, is an extremely reasonable position to take. Yet I find it so frustrating because I know that those around me will not accept this. They will say that I am just using faulty human reasoning (corrupted by my fallen nature), and that I should rely on scripture and prayer. They will say that the devil is misleading me. I know that they will say these things because several months ago, I began to question basic assumptions about Christianity and recanted after the intense backlash that I felt from my wife and in-laws.

I don't want to disappoint my family. I don't want to lose my wife, whom I love. But how do I, someone who desires to be rational, compete with the drone of irrationality?

While I feel spiritually and mentally liberated, I also feel, socially, more imprisoned than ever.

Stan, perhaps you should tell your wife, but pray to God before doing it?






May God richly Bless your day!

STAN, I read your post.I see that it is not your article,but you say that is similar to how you feel..Do you still feel this way?
Agnostic, in it self is not all bad,it makes you critical,of all the beliefs around you.There are a lot reasons for a person to be turned off to religion.There are a lot of church attenders, that are agnostic’s and don’t know it.These are people that become thinkers,and started to question,there own beliefs.Which is good, to a certain extent.But also dangerous, because using the very words you use” irrational and rational”become into play.

“Religious belief is founded on fundamentally irrational assumptions”This kind of statement is as unfounded, as any so called fairy tale you could write.
The belief in God you say is irrational, and corrupted,by irrational” thinking,there fore religious belief should be not synonymous with absolute truth”.
I would shake in my boots if I carried that Idea around in my head let alone using that a as appoint of argument.
How do you sleep at night, with with kind of reason?Secondly you have no agument.Your very existence shows you that there is a higher power in control of things.The very fact that you are kept a live with the air you breath every few seconds.

The second question I have“,What is absolute truth to you?You say that you can not prove there is a God , and can not prove there is not a God.”.I am not sure how you deal, with these concepts. When you state that you feel spiritually and mentally liberated.The way I see it , you have never knowen , what it means to have a personal relationship with God. Your religious experience has been an expedent , socially,act, to have come to this kind of agnosticsim.


I refuse to squeeze truth out of irrationality,have no good reason to believe , and have not had a spiritual experience .Iam therefore agnostic.”
This is where your problem lies, you lack the personal experience,of a touch of Gods love that will open your eyes to reality.I suggest to you, start reading the New Testament, and it is full of the promise of Eternal Life, don,t miss out on this life after death reality.

Here are some scriptures,that can help you receive, the answer, to your dilemma.You can experience , the full flowing of the Holy-Spirit, in your life. It will rock your socks off your feet.
Mark11:23-24 I tell you the truth,if anyone says to the mountain, “Go throw yourself to the sea, and does not doubt but in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. 24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it.It will be yours.
Luke 11:9,So I say to you:Ask and it will be given to you ,seek and you will find Knock and the door will be 13If you then though you who are evil , know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your father in heaven give the Holy-Spirit to those who ask him!
Matt17;20 Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth. If you have faith , as a small ,as this mustard seed,you say to this mountain, move from here to there and it will move, nothing is impossible for you.
Stan I know I am speaking to death ears, but I am not giving up, as long as you are posting there is hope.I ‘ say again I lived that life, so I know your rationalities are real to you , but they are as irrational as can be.
So Stan I am praying for you , that these scripture’s I have posted will take hold of you and put your life upside down.Become a new person.

Stan how much does your engineering background play into this?
As a person that has a distinct need to have all my ducks in a row, all my puzzle pieces in place, my pictures straight on the wall, I have come to the place where the pieces are all missing, the ducks have run away, and my house has fallen into crooked piles around me. and yet at this time, I know more than I ever have in my life that there is a great God who is greater than we can imagine and cares for me more than I will ever know, not only me but all those around me. That knowledge makes such a difference in how the missing ducks affect me and my attitude around me.
I remember a very close friend who's husband has left her for another woman, left her to raise 4 girls with him sending a mere $25 a month child support just to keep the state off his back, while he helped raised someone else's children. One day she told me that she had to remember that God loved him much more than she did and God loved her just the same. Today she has her own place she owns, a decent job, 2 married daughters, and 4 daughters that while they are hurt many times by what their father has done, still talk about him and treat him with respect. does he deserve the respect his family has given him? probably not, but it will eventually be the thing that allows him to see God's love more than anything else the rest of us will do.
Maybe somewhere your ducks have stayed put but are soon on their way over the field to a new home without you. God will still be there waiting for you whether you believe in him or not. and you probably will not be able to make sense of it in your detail oriented mind but You will know without a doubt.

Love and prayers, Locklady

Don, I said in my post I felt similar to this author several years ago. At that time I was dealing with the discomfort of revealing to my wife the extent of my fall from Biblical beliefs. At this time we have moved past that and she has accepted and that level of discomfort no longer exists.

But yes, I am certainly an agnostic, especially when it comes to the Judeo-Christian religion. In that I am very comfortable.

You claim it is unfounded that “Religious belief is founded on fundamentally irrational assumptions”. I disagree, and will side with the author on that one. Now, I don’t believe it is irrational to believe that there is a creator of the universe. But I do think it irrational to believe in the supernatural, such as snakes and donkeys speaking to men, or the sun stopping in the sky, or the creator impregnating a virgin who bears a savior with supernatural powers. These stories have MYTH stamped all over them. And above all, I think it irrational to believe that this creator chose to create the human race while stacking the rules so that all but a select few would be forever tormented after death by default. Such an irrational God could be feared, but it would be extremely difficult to feel any genuine affection for him.

As the author of my post stated, the only justification to actually believe any of this stuff is if you have had some undeniable personal experience with the supernatural which somehow can be tied to scriptures. To believe without that experience would put you in the same position as those who worshiped the ancient God of Zeus for the simple reason everyone else around them did.

I have never had such an experience. I have listened to the Gospels and read them for most of my life. The verses you reference are very familiar to me, but I have not found them to be true. Do you have faith as large as a grain of mustard seed? If so, have you moved any mountains? Have you always received what you asked for when you believed it? You may accuse me of being too literal, but these verses have little practical meaning to me. In my own personal experience and in the experiences of those who I have observed, people receive what they ask for based on their own doing or by random chances, and not because of supernatural interventions.

You say my problem is that I lack personal experience and that I should again read scriptures so that I can receive it. I ask you, how many years should one do this? If a person is in their 50’s and have searched for that experience many times in their lives, it there some point at which he can justifiably have an eye opener? What advice would you have had for that ancient Roman who could find no evidence that Zeus existed, despite the masses telling him it was true?

Anyway, I appreciate you caring and thinking of me. I hope you don’t take my thoughts to personally.

Stan, I'm praying for you like a experience like Saul had on the Damucus road!smile calledoutPTL

CO, what will happen to Stan if you don't pray? Is it possible that his eternal destiny would depend upon your actions?

Stan, thanks for taking the time, and answering,my post.
I knew what your reply would be, there is nothing new, in your comments.Iam somewhat sadden ,that you have had this reasoning, for so many years.I was in that turmoil, till I reached 60years old. So you have a few years to go .

I can see your reasoning, is so imbedded into your brain that it will take a supper-natural experience for you to change.
Also Iam somewhat sadden,that at your age that you do not see the the insecurities,and the fallibility, of man.People are searching for some meaning in life.

“I think it irrational to believe to that this creator chose to create the human race , while stacking the rules so that all but a select few would be forever tormented after death, by default.”
I am alittle confused,with this reply.Who are you to debate, what God will do or not.It almost sounds that you are equal to god
I base very little on this thought of a torment..you know in the natural world, there are consequences, for what ever happen in your life,so what is the big deal, that you would have all the people, that do evil ,reach paradises with you.”,Then you end up with it would be hard to feel any genuine affection for him.”
What made you love your parents,was it if no discipline,was applied our did you appreciate, when your parents taught you to do the right thing.You loved your parents more if they cared for you .So do you feel that Hitler deservers to be with you , that he should not suffer the consequences of his evil deeds.

You state that To believe with out a personal experience is the same as those that worship the ancient God of Zeus.Here again it is an irrational statement.I have no clue what you are trying to convey, except that you state that you have to have a supper-natural experience. This is what I have tried to convey to you all along.

I don’t know you on a personal level, and I really wish I did, your post are so interesting. I am not sure if I tell you my supper-natural experience, that it will have any effect on you .since you have preconceived, ideas,of what you feel apply to rational thinking.

Like the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water ‘ but you can ‘t make him drink the water.
I think you are a better person, then I have been, also you have a moral standered that I did not have.so it maybe harder for you to to see the need for you to change.

I fell into agnostic values,that totally led me away from any kind of Christian living.I became very bitter, against Christianity, and church.So I did not have anything to do with Christians, used my rationale as a reality which became irrational..I was very conformable with the way I live.I was free as the breeze, so as to say.this lasted till I hit a snag. The world began to close in on me.I did not know where to turn to.The friends I thought I had disappeared. I slept very little for 2 weeks. Then one night, I fell into a very deep sleep.and my brother who was 1000 miles from where I lived,was dying from cancer, who was 10 years younger then I, about 50 years old. You see, I believe that your soul leaves before your body stops breathing. Is just the mechanics,that keep going.He came to my bedside and showed me his resurrected body, he was waving his hands around very excited, I did not see his face nor could I understand what he was saying..It looked like he was wearing a striped light brown suit, he looked real elegant.and I slowly came out of my sleep,and Isaw a shadow leave through the out side wall..
This was the beginning of my change.I saw where I had come to, and I needed to change, but I could not find remorse, or feel repentance. It took me almost ayear when God came to me and told me that he accepted me with his unconditional love.What a feeling to feel forgiven, the bitterness was gone, what a relief.
My biggest problem wasI could not forgive myself, for my past behavior. So I had to really commit myself to god , because the devil made every attempt to not let me go. But God is stronger every time.All this happen without any Church involvement. Its only later that we started to attend a church, many of the church people tried to understand what brought us to church, after 20 years of not attending.

Another supper-natural experience, that I had when I had basal cell carcinoma skin cancer, I had it for 10 years, and treated it many times and it would always come back, had surgery,and it came back, So I made an appointment again,with my Dr, to have surgery , .and the morning before my appointment went to look at my face at the mirror, the was a scap on the cancer site, and I removed it and it looked like if I had stitches, and it was all healed.
I had a large prostate , the Dr. said it was a big as an orange, I had a lot of pain from 60-65 , and the pain disappeared, I have no pain.

So Stan is this enough of supper-natural evident for you to grasp why I am so excited , and telling others about what God has done for me.


Now the final statement, I am going to make is on the comments, you made on your frustrating feelings on answer to prayer.I know what you are asking.How many times has it been a selfish request or many people , pray with always if it is your will, here already there is a lack of faith. Do you think you have faith of a mustard seed? I know it is small , but big ,if you compare it to the amount of faith aperson has.
The scripture, that state you will remove mountains, . How do you look athis statement?What this means the spiritual mountains that are in your life, can be removed with prayer, or relationships that have gone dry.Also Ican say for myself, that I have prayers answer both physical, and spiritual. Many prayers have been answer. There are times that god’s dead-lines are different then mind.I have seen it lately that people have had a change , a touch from Gods love.We are living in excited times, the harvest is ripe,and the labours are few.Stan with your gifts, and talents you could do so much in bringing in the harvest, of souls.My son and his wife, her parents, my nephews, and a few neighbors and many others are changed people, I see many more coming to the lord.

Stan never thing you are to hard on me, or that I take it personal. I enjoy every minute of the interchange we have.

I can't believe some of the patronizing condescending stupid bullsh*t given to Stan on this thread.

Don, I said in my last post, “I think it irrational to believe that this creator chose to create the human race , while stacking the rules so that all but a select few would be forever tormented after death, by default.”

You replied that you were a little confused with my reply and suggested I might be trying to be equal with God by questioning his actions. I don’t know how to make it clearer to you than to say that I am not questioning a God I believe exists; I am trying to show the fallacy of believing in such a creator. I simply don’t believe that God exists, so how am I putting my self equal to an imaginary concept I don’t believe is true?

Scott has had a lot to say about the eternal torture concept, and so I really don’t need to go into all the justification of why the very concept of a God who puts humans on earth by no choice of their own, and then tortures them eternally because they didn’t happen to be raised in an environment where Christianity was presented in a way they could accept, is irrational.

I bring the Greek God Zeus into the argument because here is an example of a deity everyone in a certain society believed in. There was no evidence that Zeus was pulling the sun across the sky in a chariot every day, but intelligent people believed this ridicules story because they had been taught it from birth, and the respectable people of society believed it. The Zeus belief brought with it its own system of rewards and punishments, giving people another reason to believe it. They lived their lives in such a way they thought would please the Gods. If good things happened that meant the Gods were pleased. If bad things happened, well maybe they had screwed up unknowingly and, anyway, the Gods could do what ever they wanted!

The Greeks were not dumb people, but they believed something that now seems absurd. Our current knowledge about astronomy and physics would make such beliefs impractical today. Christian beliefs do not dwell quite so much on easily disproved physical concepts, but instead emphasis something called a spiritual world. It is this spiritual world that I do not see any evidence for. I know the mind can play tricks on a person, especially in times of sleep depravity, sickness, sadness, trauma, and near death. So when I hear anecdotal evidence such as what you presented about your brother, how can I rule out these possibilities? During a deep sleep after two weeks of little sleep and emotional turmoil, you have a dream and seem to see a shadow in a wall upon waking. I’m sorry, but this is not convincing evidence of a spiritual world. I don’t know what to make of your healing anecdotes, but why would God put the appearance of stitches (mans invention) on a miraculous healing?

If the mountains that can be moved through prayer are only spiritual, then I would say the power of the verse is quite diminished. Spiritual obstructions are quite intangible and I would argue take place only in the mind. I have no doubt that believing prayer will help remove these obstructions will assist in an improved state of mind. (Study the placebo effect.) When I get in a troubled state of mind, I use other mental tactics to help me get out of a depression, such as exercise, improving personal relationships, and taking tangible steps to improve my situation. Works every time!

I believe in rational thought and education. These can assist a person in avoiding moral pitfalls in life, such as drunkenness, infidelity, and poor parenting. In my experience, these have been much more reliable than prayer and belief in the supernatural.

Stan:

I've been keeping out of this one, but I do want to say this:

Speaking from my perspective, as someone who holds to the theistic view of things (although not without a certain level of agnosticism from time to time), I have to say that although you and I have come to somewhat different conclusions, (perhaps, 'taking different positions', would be a more accurate way of stating it), I greatly respect you and your perspective.

Scott; condescending writings here ? So Stan's view that God may not exist is of higher thought then those who believe ?

I've been reading here with interest and respect Stan's view although I disagree with him. I am not as educated as you and Stan, but I can see another's point of view and how they arrive at it.

Thanks, Steve and Hank for your respect.

In reading through my last post, I want to clarify my statement in the second paragraph. I meant to say, “I simply don’t believe that THAT God exists”, meaning I am not making the argument there is no God, only that I do not believe in the one described. I have always thought Einstein’s Cosmic God was a concept worth consideration; an intelligence which dictates what the governing laws of the universe are to be, but does not have a personal relationship with individuals or interfere with the laws of physics once they are established. But this is all in the realm of speculation, and the evidence to know anything for certain is lacking. I don’t believe a creator would expect us to figure it all out, or believe anything beyond our own experiences in our limited physical world.

I disagree with Stan. I believe in God. I just don't like that attitude of "...I used to believe just like you but now I know better". Also, couldn't hardly believe that baloney about Hitler presented as an argument.

>

Sorry Everyone!! Our computer kept disconnecting and put three posts on the wrong thread here so I edited them out.

>

Scott,Iam sorry if I offended you, when I used Hitler as an example I leaned it from reading your post's, you use Hitler alot to emphasize,your briefs.
You know Scott, you and I are not that far apart on the Eternal Barbeque.
The way I believe, If you are a believer,you recieve the Holy_Spirit, and and will guide you through life, and and when your physical body die's , your soul will be guided to the Resurrection and a new heavenly body.
If you are not a believer, you will be resurrected, on Judgement day, and be judge,many will make it then. What God is doing he is rooting out evil. Just the ones that do not believe, will be on the Barbecue.
Scott, could you show me where I was out of place in my comments to Stan?Iam sure Stan could let me know if I offended him.

Don, anything (and I mean ANYTHING) thing that a designer would inflict upon his own creation must be redemptive in nature, i.e., its purpose is to get the design to work properly. If not, then the designer is punishing his own design for his own design flaws which is punitive, petulant, and immature in the extreme. I understand the fire of judgement to have a purpose of getting the design (i.e., man) to work properly, but to punish man in eternal torment is as stupid as an engineer stomping on his own failed creation.

Stan, this probably will be my last post on this exchange of ideas. I find that we are going around in circles, from here on in.
Scott seems to feel that I have become" Holier then thou", this is not my intent.
You do a very good job of putting your thoughts on paper. Here I lack, but I feel I have something to say, and I know that I will be misunderstood sometimes, but that is the chance I take.
I also realize that you would take my experiences, in a different light, then I do.This is why I hesitated, to tell you but that the way things go.
Maybe Scott would see me in a different light if I would tell him my whole story.My deliverance, from what I was and how God has changed me.

Scott; it is not necessary to "put us down" because we may have a different view then you do. I will not stomp on your theory... but may disagree with it.

To the point and to repeat; I believe that one difference between us is that I view man as a higher creation then you do. God created us with some inherent responsibility... and you say such is an impossibility.

I haven't weighed in on this discussion earlier simply because agnosticism cannot be dealt with on a logical, rational level. The very idea of faith is totally irrational. It cannot be scientifically discerned, therefore is irrational.
However, God chose this way to bring mankind to Him. You will never find empirical evidence to prove the existence of God. The only way you will ever find Him is through simple, child-like faith.
I, like Don, have had some supernatural experiences that prove to me, beyond a shadow of doubt, that God exists.
(edited for spelling)

Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
(KJV)
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
De 4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
Ac 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Locklady; sorry, I didn’t mean to ignore your question about engineering. I think my educational experiences in engineering, science and math contribute to being able to better separate fact from fiction, or at least an unreasonable conclusion from a reasonable one. But I don’t believe that such an education is a requirement to do so.

To be a good skeptic, one must avoid coming to a conclusion about anything until convincing evidence is presented. To determine if something is true, make a hypothesis and then test it. For instance, if your phone doesn’t work, you might speculate that the cord has a bad connection and replace it. If that doesn’t work, test to see if the receptacle in the wall is good by plugging in a phone that you know works. You get the picture. Hypothesize, and then test, until the results are obvious.

You relate a story about a woman down on her luck who one day remembered God loved the person who did her wrong, and then relate that things started going better for her. So did things go better because of her remembering that, or were there other factors involved? It would be really hard to determine that in retrospect, but a study could be done with an investigation into other similar cases. Did a positive attitude toward Christianity improve their lives? What percentage? How about another group who did not turn to religion? Did their lives also improve? What percentage? And if the percentage is higher on the Christian side, how much of that can be attributed to more responsible spending and social patterns that one observes to stay compatible with a Christian community? Was church social support a factor? How about other groups involved with Scientology or Islam? Did they experience similar benefits after they converted?

I’m not suggesting you should embark on such a study, but only that if we would all use this type of thought process, I think we would be much more hesitant to jump to conclusions based on a few anecdotes.

The history of the human race is full of well meaning people who have lived their whole lives believing something that was totally false. They believed because everyone else around them did, and they never bothered to really investigate their beliefs with some simple experiments. How can we be sure we are born into a system of beliefs which is true (Christian religion), bypassing the need to be skeptical and test our basic assumptions?

As to your question about needing all my ducks in a row, I don’t know that I have any higher expectations than anyone else. I try to understand what I can, and be skeptical about the rest. My life can not be described as “having my ducks all lined up”. There are many things I would change if I could. But I accept things the way they are. I know they are that way, not because of some divine plan, but because of chance and random events. I am totally fine with making the best of my situation.