I think what Scott is really saying on the "the superior native" thread is that when you feel superior to those around you then you lose(at least somewhat) a basic human element(or natural law?)and that is compassion.
Here is an article that conveys what I'm trying to say:

Compassion can be roughly defined in terms of a state of mind that is non-violent and non-harming, or non- aggressive. Because of this there is a danger of confusing compassion with attachment and intimacy.
So we find that there are two types of love or compassion. On the one hand is compassion or love which is based on attachment or which is tinged with attachment. That type of love or compassion and feeling of intimacy is quite partial and biased, and it is based very much on the consideration that the object of one's affection or attachment is someone who is dear or close to one. On the other hand, genuine compassion is free from such attachment. There the motivation is not so much that this person is my friend, is dear to me or related to me. Rather, genuine compassion is based on the rationale that just as I do, others also have this innate desire to be happy and overcome suffering; just as I do, they have the natural right to fulfill this fundamental aspiration. Based on that recognition of this fundamental equality and commonality, one develops a sense of affinity and closeness, and based on that, one will generate love and compassion. That is genuine compassion.
It is also very clear that one's level of intelligence or wisdom is a complementary factor that will determine the intensity and the depth of one's compassion. In Buddhism, there are discussions of three principal types of compassion. One is a compassion that is not complemented by any wisdom factors. A second level of compassion is complemented by insight into the transient nature of sentient beings, their impermanent nature. At the third level of compassion, called non-objectified compassion, the complementary factor is wisdom or insight into the ultimate nature of reality. At this level one sees the empty nature of sentient beings, and that insight reinforces one's compassionate attitude towards sentient beings. Even though this type of genuine compassion and infinite altruism is something that needs to be consciously cultivated and developed, we all possess the basis or potential for such enhancement and such development.
One of my fundamental beliefs is that not only do we inherently possess this potential or basis for compassion, but also the basic or fundamental human nature is gentleness. Not only human beings but all sentient beings have gentleness as their fundamental nature. There are other grounds on which I base this belief, without having to resort to the doctrine of Buddha-nature. For example, if we look at the pattern of our existence from an early age until our death, we see the way in which we are so fundamentally nurtured by affection, each other's affection, and how we feel when we are exposed to others' affection. In addition, when we ourselves have affectionate feelings we see how it naturally affects us from within. Not only that, but also being affectionate and being more wholesome in our behavior and thought seems to be much more suited to the physical structure of our body in terms of its effect on our health and physical well-being, and so on. It must also be noted how the contrary seems to be destructive to health. For these reasons I think that we can infer that our fundamental human nature is one of gentleness. Now if this is the case, then it makes all the more sense to try to live a way of life which would be more in accordance with this basic gentle nature of our being.
However, we do find a lot of conflict and tension not only within our individual mind but also within the family, when we interact with other people, and also at the social level, the national level, the global level, and so on. How do we account for that?
One of the factors, I think, that contributes to this conflict is our imaginative faculty, or in other words, intelligence. It is also our intelligence that can find ways and means to overcome this conflict. So in using human intelligence to overcome this conflict which is created by human intelligence, the important factor is human compassion. I think if we look at the reality, it is quite clear that the best way to overcome conflict is the spirit of reconciliation, even within oneself. That spirit has very much to do with compassion.
One aspect of compassion is to respect others' rights and to respect others' views. That is the basis of reconciliation. I think the rule of the human spirit of reconciliation that is based on compassion is working deep down, whether the person really knows it or not. Therefore, because our basic human nature is gentleness, no matter how much we go through violence and many bad things, ultimately the proper solution is to return to the basic human feeling, that is, human affection. So human affection or compassion is not only a religious matter, but in our day-to-day life it is quite indispensable.

GM, this is really a great article.  The terminology is a bit difficult to dig through, but it contains a lot of insight.  I hesitate to bring this back around to a discussion about the Holdeman's, but I think there are many principles expressed in this article that are totally lost on the average H.  This lack is evident in many different cultural and relational aspects of the H existence.

Compassion can be roughly defined in terms of a state of mind that is non-violent and non-harming, or non- aggressive.

Even though the H claim to be non-violent, they completely miss the boat when it comes to non-harming and non-aggressive behaviors.  It seems to not bother them in the least that they are separatists who have very little personal investment in the people of their communities.  In fact, I think they see this as a virtue of some kind.  Any small amount of compassion and helpfulness always comes with a price attached.

One aspect of compassion is to respect others' rights and to respect others' views. That is the basis of reconciliation.

Again, the concepts of compassion and reconciliation are a very low priority within the H culture and society.  Even though they make some feeble attempts to show a caring spirit in times of disaster, their independent uncaring behaviors the other 99% of the time show otherwise.

Taken one step further, the whole concept of excommunication and avoidance flies in the face of these principles.  They have practically no tolerance or respect for anyone that disagrees with them.  They see respect and reconciliation as a sign of weakness.

Brent D, I agree too that this article does a fine job of explaining the meaning of compassion and exposes some inconsistencies as it relates to the H people.

>>Any small amount of compassion and helpfulness always comes with a price attached.<<

I have found this to be true many times. Although the mennonites in general are known nationally as some of the first responders to natural disasters which they are to be commended.

Here is the MO. If their "compassion" can be written up in a mission report....YES, or if they can set up a camp at New Orleans and have the President come by and appreciate them...YES, or if their "compassion" is to reroof a house in town with all the worldy folks driving by and seeing our "nice young people"...YES, but if their compassion cost them something with no corresponding publicity for bolstering their credibility....NO!

Scott the idea that myself and others go wade through mud and garbage for publicity is just that, mud and garbage. Grow up!

I'm a travelin man!

Scott

In your last post here in this thread ?

I could not agree with you more .

I am sure there are Holdemans who do engage in 'acts of compassion' for truly altruistic reasons. They're just somewhere else.

Seriously, there are Holdemans (likely including TM) who do this out of true compassionate motives. However, as I recall from 'reports' back in my days in Holdeland, there was always that element of 'well, you know, there's quite a bit of interest in the church' (note: Not in Christ - in the church) in the areas where these things were being done. Or, 'we have several families from the world attending services now and some of them have even had a newbirth experience and are almost ready for baptism'.

The rank and file might be benign in their endeavours, but the COGICM Inc. is always just waiting for the opportunity to distribute tracts and try to sign up converts - rather than working with the local churches and other organisations. Maybe this has changed - I hope it has - but back in Rosenort, whenever there was a flood, the CDR would have its own headquarters rather than coordinating with the other organisations (EMO, Red Cross and MDS) helping to fight the flood.

I find some of this sad and would have to stand on the side of TM for the most part when it comes to CDR work that we have participated in and that our children have done. They simply went and did what had to be done. I have personally spent several times after tornados working with the Red CRoss sorting clothing for distribution, a long dirty rather thankless job that looks like you have simply made a bigger mess when you are done. but to be able to find someone a few bits of clothing when they have nothing but the clothes on their back was extremely rewarding. I remember finding a few pairs of men's underwear in a box and putting it out on the table in the space alotted for it and having someone come in that had lost everything, As I was apologising because that was all I had to give her, she said"it's okay, when you have nothing it's not important anymore." And knowing what our son and TM went thru in Louisiana, there was simply nothing glorious about that, and they were definitely working under another group's leadership.
I remember a Flood cleanup yrs ago that a bunch from here went on and 2 of them ended up in the hospital within a few days of coming home and several others refused to go the hospital but seriously thought they were going to die from the illness they got from working there.
I do know what you are talking about in the attitude, but I can say that all H are not like that, I would say the majority simply help because help is truly needed. At least what we have seen here.

Love and prayers, Locklady

I disagree with Scott on the idea that the Holdeman's just want to be recognized and that's why they do the community service bits. I believe the Holdeman church is trying to help the people that are having a physical crisis. To try and judge them as not having compassion is like the Holdemans trying to judge the ex's as not being saved..... a person CAN NOT judge what is in another person's heart. I would rather err and believe that good about someone.. rather than to think evil of someone.

While there is some truth to what everyone wrote, I was hoping this would go in a little different direction but I'll get into that a little later. While we're on the subject of CDR work, there is something to be said for what can and has been accomplished in the recent disasters. Although I have not been a participant in the work done, I always try to keep abreast of what happens. Lark had a point there, we don't want to judge anyone's motive for helping in this type of work.
It definitely takes compassion as a motive to labor in the sometimes very difficult situations, let alone a monetary loss for leaving a job or business without reimbursement. The heroic efforts, with Greensburg being a recent example, of all the Holdemans, men, women, and children that went to help day after day is worthy of our praise and gratitude. It was something to behold to see pictures of people side by side(the H together with everyone else) combing entire fields looking for anything from little to big trash and putting it on trailers pulled by four wheelers of which many H brought theirs, along with grapple machines, backhoes and other machinery. There were some days they estimated 800 to 1000 H there. The ladies were at the Greensburg H church preparing large meals for anyone that wanted to come. All the chainsaw work in cutting up trees and trucks donated to haul off the debris was a large task in itself. My hat is off to everyone that helped, including people of every walk of life.

Now I want to say something about the H boys stationed in the New Orleans area, the Hammond area unit in particular. Their interaction with the people there was nothing short of heartwarming, the friendships they made with some of the older people that eventually became life-long friends. These boys would go in the evenings to their homes and have meals and sing for them and visit and those people appreciated it very much. Several of the local families there a year or so later paid for airplane tickets for the boys that were there at that time to fly down there and be with them for several days. That was just one incident in one locale and I'm sure there a lot more similar stories that could be told.
And you didn't think I could say anything good about the holdemans. Well, I just proved you wrong. Good day!

GM, so what do you make of it. The CDR boys warmed the hearts of the locals, and farmers were willing to put a few hours in on their 4-wheelers and burn some gas. And 14 holdeman preachers drove several states to deliberate Rosalie's and my request to revoke her membership to save our marriage (the stresses causes by her membership were obvious irrefutable) and they looked at our family, at our two retarded boys, at our seventeen year old son, and they decided that their church membership was more important than a family.


The world-wide Church of Satan, at their 1998 convention in Sidney, created a vision statement for most effectively fighting against God's kingdom. This is what it was: to break apart families in every way possible. I know this because a friend of mine used to be a practicing Satanist.

Scott, I agree, your case is a prime example where principle overrides love and compassion. That would fall in line with a quote from the opening post:

>>Rather, genuine compassion is based on the rationale that just as I do, others also have this innate desire to be happy and overcome suffering; just as I do, they have the natural right to fulfill this fundamental aspiration. Based on that recognition of this fundamental equality and commonality, one develops a sense of affinity and closeness, and based on that, one will generate love and compassion. That is genuine compassion.<<

I believe if you could somehow reverse the roles between you and the ministers, you might hear statements like, Whoa, wait a minute, hold on here, not so fast. If your talking about breaking up our marriage, let's sit down and find some way to work this out.

When I posted that opening article, I was thinking about your situation. I also don't think that a church doctrine should come between a marriage.