Has anyone heard about the folding of the pigeon business? We have friends who fell for this scam and stand to lose everything they own. Last summer when we made a trip West we heard much discussion about this; apparently a large number of Amish and Mennonites fell for this scheme - it's a pyramid scheme. I have wondered why so many get taken in by such things, but I think it must be that since Mennos and Amish are so honest themselves and so trusting, they cannot believe that anyone would be dishonest and cheat them. A lot of farms stand on the edge of being lost right now. Story at http://www.pyramidschemealert.org/PSAMain/news/PigeonPonziUpdateJune08.html
I feel bad for the folks who got involved in the pigeon king scam, but there have been warnings out about this operation for a couple of years and all the articles I read always included a warning to be cautious. The old saying that if it looks too good to be true comes to mind here, sadly people who fall for these schemes seem to be blinded by the big money promises. And so pigeons fall in line with all the other failed get rich farm schemes like Jerusalem artichokes, emus, miniature cattle, ostriches, russian boars, potbelly pigs, etc.
I'd never heard about this pigeon "business" until last night. Our amish neighbors invited us to a neighborhood wiener roast and the one guy (a builder) was talking about it. He'd helped build a 300' pigeon barn in the area. They just finished it not long ago. I'm not sure they had even put the birds in it by the time this thing collapsed.
It's true that the Amish-Mennonite community has a reputation for being honest and trusting. However, I think that greed and the attraction of an easy income clouds the vision of most of these victims to the point that they fail to do their homework before jumping on the bandwagon. Like many of our dads told us, "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is."
Click here for a link to a cached version of a PKI newsletter I found on Google's database. This newsletter smells phony from start to finish. One family even claimed they had a sign from God to get into the business There was never any real demand for the product other than to supply the other scamees down the chain.
BrentR, you mentioned miniature cattle as one of the failed get rich quick farm schemes. I've considered getting a few of these mini cattle. Is this thing a bubble ready to burst or has it burst in the past? I thought there was some demand for this animal due to folks buying them for pets and you could actually eat them if you wanted to. Got any additional info on it?
RM do you remember when all those folks out your way farmed worms? that was a big business for awhile.
We hada bunch of EMU farmers around here for quite awhile. Then there is Forever Living, Noni Juice, Mangosteen, Xango, Water Divine..............
LL
I was a kid, bout 8 or 9 when the fishworms industry swept through. Another ripoff similar to the pigeon thing. An amishman down the road here got into pot-bellied pigs in the early days. He made an absolute killing while the craze lasted!
There are some things that are scams and others that are fads. Scams are things like the pigeon king scheme - there never was any demand for the actual product (arguably they can be lucrative for the early entrants in a ponzi scheme). Fads, on the other hand, can be lucrative if you time your entry into (and exit out of) the market correctly - pot belly pigs being an example, since there were people actually buying the critters at one point.
Locklady
some of those like Noni Juice and Xango do have some merit. Some nutritional Products have much more Balance and Value than others.
One way to check them out is get a Comparitive Guide, Sort of like a consumers guide to nutrition.
My 98 year old Aunt is a great testimony to using proper nutrition and excercise to keep us healthy for a good life. (an exholdie too )She has been faithfully taking nutrition and studying for the best since about 1960. And I do know us people who spend too much time sitting by the computer are not getting the excercise we once did stooking threshing and working in the sawmill. Also they all like to tell you they are the best but some have a much better pay structure than others. Many people do make a good reliable income from home helping others improve their health and their financial situation.
And yes it is work, it is a business, It is not a free lunch. But it is much better than working for 40 years for a gold watch.
If you are interested in the book I think I can find it for less money than at Amazon as well.
Those of us that don't have the money to plunk down on all this "stuff", don't have to worry about it
Some plain folk around here got in to deer, and it's still a big thing, several years later. Some of these deer still sell for 10's of thousands.
I know some H that got suckered in to the pigeon thing, including a deacon. I couldn't believe my ears when it was all going on, that people really believed it. But then, as Brent U said, who hasn't made an honest mistake. I know I have. I just got beaned almost 5k recently because I tried to be nice to somebody. So it goes.
This message has been edited by anaverageh on Jun 21, 2008 9:37 PM
Steven, you're dead on.....big difference between the two. This guy laughed when he told me that he basically gave the last ones away. He'd lucked out on the timing and made his money. Bum deal was that he got killed in a logging accident a few years later.
Wow. My Dad was very interested in this pigeon business. He had collected a bunch of info on it and even talked to his banker,who cautioned him to hang on a while and see how it went. He is semi retired and needed something on the side that was easy to do so it really appealed to him. I showed this to him tonight and he was so glad he didn't go ahead with it!
We have had a friend trying to get us into MarketAmerica also but when I checked it out well it doesn't sound nearly as great! There usually isn't "easy" money.
Has anyone heard of Goji juice? We had people trying to sell us on that business too,but the guy that started it seems like a jerk. Even if it turns out to be good money,it doesn't seem at all right to sell something to the vulnerable,older people who are in the market for this.
RM, the problem with miniature cattle is that you are spending premium money for a dwarf cow (please, I'm not prejudice against dwarfs) when you can spend a reasonable amount for a standard bred calf and in the end have a lot more meat for your money. If you are interested just in meat I'd suggest going to a local dairy farm and buy a couple of bull calves to raise up (cattle do better when they have a partner). If you are interested in breeding miniature cattle, beware, they can have calving problems and can have a birth defect called bulldogism, which, I believe, is fatal. Good luck.
Is this pigeon scam a rural thing? I don't think I've heard about it.
Another thing, I’ve been thinking about starting a new religion. All you have to do in order join is send money. If you get in early I might consider making you a deaconess or something.
Think about it, people sending money just so they can have the privilege of worshiping whatever it is that we’re touting.
This message has been edited by Sirius65 on Jun 22, 2008 9:19 AM This message has been edited by Sirius65 on Jun 22, 2008 9:17 AM
Another thing, I’ve been thinking about starting a new religion. All you have to do in order join is send money. If you get in early I might consider making you a deaconess or something.
Are you serious or are you sirius?
You need to tell us where to send the money, the amount needed, and the something that we get. (I don't want to be a deaconess, the "something" sounds like a much better deal)
Who knows, when all the facts are disclosed some may want to join in the charter membership deal.
I would also need to know, are weekly meetings required or is a lake of our choice good enough?
>>Wow! I thought in your protocol, dokes would be banned!<<
Look, cupcake, I’m not big on banning things, especially if they don’t cause harm to another person. If you insist on continuing to wear that thing day in and day out, go for it. I’ll tell you this, though, had I been born female instead of male, pinning the doke on everyday would have been more than enough reason for me to leave
>>You need to tell us where to send the money, the amount needed, and the something that we get.<<
Don’t you even care what I’ll do with the money?
What will you get? Mark, you’re so selfish. That’s okay, it’s human nature. How about peace. Isn’t that what every human desires? Guess what, money can’t really buy true peace. If you don’t already have it, no amount of money you give me or anyone else will help you attain it.
>> (I don't want to be a deaconess, the "something" sounds like a much better deal)<<
Mark, I don‘t know, yet, whether I’d put you in a leadership role. If I did you’d have to promise me that you wouldn’t begin holding tent meetings some place down in Florida. I don’t mind if you start a program that helps needy people, though. If I want them to see clown acts I’ll give out tickets to the circus.
>>I would also need to know, are weekly meetings required or is a lake of our choice good enough?<<
Don’t you even care what it is you’ll be worshipping? Mark, you need to be a little more cautious and critical before you jump in headfirst.
Howie, you wrote >>My 98 year old Aunt is a great testimony to using proper nutrition and excercise to keep us healthy for a good life. (<<
Proper nutrition can be found in good food and a balanced diet. My aunt is 92 and she's never used any supplements. Genetics probably factors into living a long life.
We note that Mennonites and Amish are prone to falling for such schemes. Presently where we live there are several cancer victims trusting in Mannetech as a cure, and willing to spend hundreds of dollars a month in their desperation. If you go here you will find Mannetech included in the list of companies involved in fraud. http://www.pyramidschemealert.org/PSAMain/news/newsindex.html
There is a deacon in our church who's selling a health product called "Reliv". He came to us at the beginning of his venture to ask our advice. Did we think it is a good product? He gave us his sales pitch and all the red flags went up. Without even investigating the company we knew it was a scam, and told him our concerns. He was miffed. So we went on to research and found out that the company is also one on the alert lists. I sent him this information but he ignored it and is still selling the stuff.
We are alternative minded people and don't take even traditional medicine at face value. We investigate whenever faced with decisions and try to gather all the facts. Anyone having Internet has no excuse for not investigating such companies.
Don’t you even care what I’ll do with the money?
No
How about peace. Isn’t that what every human desires? Guess what, money can’t really buy true peace. If you don’t already have it, no amount of money you give me or anyone else will help you attain it.
Truer words could not be spoken.
On a side note. Did you know peace is not the absence of conflict but that that peace is a vibrational frequency that is the harmony chord which is the result of having the frequency of love and the frequency of joy?
Mark, I don‘t know, yet, whether I’d put you in a leadership role. If I did you’d have to promise me that you wouldn’t begin holding tent meetings some place down in Florida. I don’t mind if you start a program that helps needy people, though. If I want them to see clown acts I’ll give out tickets to the circus.
If leadership is the "something", then count me out! At least we know some of the money will go to help out the circus.
Don’t you even care what it is you’ll be worshipping? Mark, you need to be a little more cautious and critical before you jump in headfirst.
I'm not jumping in headfirst! I was asking for full discloser. I said there may be some who want to join when they have all the facts. The some did not necessarily include me.
Steven, I was just talking with my son from Cartwright and he tells me that Jake Bartel's son from Rosenort just finished a big pigeon barn, and a couple of H farmers from Nepawa have also invested. Have you heard about that? He had heard of others but not sure how many.
Candee
You are soo right in that good food and proper nutrition is excellent for ones health, But with the amount of fertilizer put on most fields now,(Nitrogen, Phosphorus, Sulpher, and what is the other one?) Plus growing much of the greens hydroponically plus the Fast feeding the chickens turkeys and beef a lot of the nutrition is not there, especially if you purchase it in the store with they way some of the foods are stored. And every one of the companies that uses unconventional marketing systems gets investigated. Some are much better than others both in the pay plan and the products. I too agree that one must do our homework. Some will look only at the negative and others only at the positive.
Howie7
Howie, not to derail the pigeon thread, but nutrition is one of my serious interests being a housewife and mother. We grow our food organically, raise free range beef and chicken, even our layers free range, and what we are unable to grow we buy through an organic co-op or local food markets. Maybe your old aunt can't garden anymore (amazingly mine still tries!) but it is fact that one needs be cautious what crosses one's lips, be it food or supplements. In winter I take a multi vitamin myself, and we use C liberally here, but we buy from conventional sources. I compared the list of ingredients in the multi-vit I use with the list in Reliv and found practically no difference except a huge difference in the cost. Much of it is just common sense and every investment deserves research.
I had not heard that, but I am not all that plugged in to what goes on in the land of Roses, so you likely know better than I do. If it's the son who got daddy's layer quota, he probably has enough money that he can afford to lose some if this is in fact the scam it appears to be...
My question is - since the market for pigeon meat is, at best, rather limited here in North America, what happens to all the pigeons being raised? Who is buying them? (Is ANYONE buying them?) Where are they being processed? (I have not heard of any pigeon abbatoirs being constructed in the Winnipeg area). Or are they transported elsewhere for slaughter? (Do they have pigeon drives, sort of like the cattle drives in the Old West)? By the way, if anyone is looking for pigeons to stock their barn with, we have a bunch in our neighbourhood that sit on our house roofs and **** all over them. Any entrepreneur looking to save a few bucks can gladly have them for the taking...
Steven, the breeders were paying $500 a pair for the breeding birds, then "sold" the offspring back to the head company who supposedly had market overseas to use them as stunt birds. That is our understanding. In fact, there was no market, ever, but the birds were being resold to new breeders as breeding stock, on and on, each year needing more investors as the stock increased, until finally, like all good pyramid schemes, they ran dry. It would appear those who lost, lost big time. They have had one meeting in Stratford and another pending to try to sort it out. The environmental people are involved, not wanting them to be released; the animal rightists are concerned lest they be neglected, and the owners are faced with feeding them or...they mentioned a meat market at the meeting but that is doubtful. I would think it's desperation only.
Hey falling for a scheme a time or two doesn't make you a fool. I think most people who are successful in business have made some mistakes that they look back on as stupid, (at least i have) but business is always risk. No job or business is a sure thing. Granted some things are much higher risk then others...the key is not to invest what you can't afford to lose on high risk ventures.
LOL I'm liking the mosquito idea, we have some beauties out here, why even the evening news announces the numbers they catch in the Winnipeg city traps daily all summer long. There must be a market for them somewhere! The timing is right to get into them here, I heard that the numbers are down by large amounts this spring...the breeding market must be a hot one right now.
This message has been edited by Zontya on Jun 24, 2008 8:12 AM
yrs ago there was sort of a market for them. they called them squab or something like that. the italians used to eat song birds as a delicacy and then there is open pigeon hunting season. Somebody eats them somewhere. Maybe these guys just have to learn how to market their product.
And K if you ever get serious about that Mosquito breeding let us know so we can start gathering them up for you. around here a lot of them weigh a pound and they sit on trees and bark.
LL
Maybe I could raise bats and sell them at a profit around here. They eat thousands of mosquitoes every night. We have a couple flying around here in the evenings but I sure haven't noticed a decrease in population!
I'll have to think on this one a little...maybe I could line up a buch of bat houses and start small and see if it takes off from there...market them via email as the new, most effective way of ridding your yard of mosqitoes-forever! Guaranteed! And as a special service to our customers,we also sell bats with rabies. Guaranteed to get rid of that neighbor you never liked either who is a big mosquito.
On second thought,I'll let someone else get rich...I can't stand the nasty,devilish looking little critters! They have a really spooky habit of swooping around you when it's almost dark and barely missing. Eewwww.
>>I WILL NEVER stand by without a fight--or a shot,whatever, lol.
One of my family told me I shouldn't have a gun around for self protection...she thought I needed to have faith and pray if someone broke in. She thought if God knew I had that gun there with intent to use it that he wouldn't protect me. I'm like,oh no, I'll be praying while I shoot!! (Dear God,please help my aim) !!<<
>>And as a special service to our customers,we also sell bats with rabies. Guaranteed to get rid of that neighbor you never liked either <<
You're already covered by a doke, what more do you need. I think the doke to you is like one of those blankets that toddlers sometimes carry around. You know, the ones with the ribbon around the edges? Kind of a security thing.
LOL, that WAS funny! Oh ,yes, my hearing is quite good, thank you. A doke doesn't impede my brain and body function either, unlike alcohol. Dokes don't make you go to bed with a ten and wake up with a two or kill innocent young people and shatter families forever...
>>Dokes don't make you go to bed with a ten and wake up with a two or kill innocent young people and shatter families forever…<<
Cupcake, they sure trained you well, didn‘t they?. Did you know that’s typical Holdi-talk? What I mean is, I asked GM to meet me for a couple of enjoyable beers on a hot day and you turn it into killing people and breaking up families. Please tell me you have more than that?
Don’t you Holdis have any self control? Can’t even enjoy a cold brew on a hot day? I feel sorry for you.
This message has been edited by Sirius65 on Jun 24, 2008 3:08 PM
This has absolutely nothing to do with Holdemans. Nothing. My personal feeling is that drink isn't forbidden in the Bible;getting drunk is. That isn't a Holdeman belief. I also believe you drink responsibly. You bring up the doke at every possible opportunity and I'm just pointing out that what I wear isn't ever going to physically harm someone. You somewhat set yourself up for this as often as you bring up beer,which I believe in the past you have told me the same thing about feeling free to talk about what I bring up on here. My thing about drinking comes totally from what I have observed, what I read, but mostly from what KB has had to deal with in his line of work. He sees so many people that think they can control it and can handle their alcohol and they can't. There has been too many deaths of young people in the area in the last year because stupid people thought it was neat to drink and drive and it's NEVER going to happen to them. There have been people changed for the rest of their life because of bad decisions to say nothing of making fools of themselves. So it's my personal take on it. Alcohol doesn't impress me the way it seems to impress you and I have other things I enjoy more. Don't waste your sympathy on me,please...I don't want it or need it.
>>Nope, not fallin' for the personal jabs anymore!...Life is too short to be serious over little stuff..<<
To this
>>Hee hee whatcha gonna do? Spew some beer-breathed wisdom at me?<<
To this
>>A doke doesn't impede my brain and body function either, unlike alcohol. Dokes don't make you go to bed with a ten and wake up with a two or kill innocent young people and shatter families forever…<<
And finally, to this.
>>This has absolutely nothing to do with Holdemans. Nothing. My personal feeling is that drink isn't forbidden in the Bible;getting drunk is. That isn't a Holdeman belief. I also believe you drink responsibly. You bring up the doke at every possible opportunity and I'm just pointing out that what I wear isn't ever going to physically harm someone. You somewhat set yourself up for this as often as you bring up beer,which I believe in the past you have told me the same thing about feeling free to talk about what I bring up on here. My thing about drinking comes totally from what I have observed, what I read, but mostly from what KB has had to deal with in his line of work. He sees so many people that think they can control it and can handle their alcohol and they can't. There has been too many deaths of young people in the area in the last year because stupid people thought it was neat to drink and drive and it's NEVER going to happen to them. There have been people changed for the rest of their life because of bad decisions to say nothing of making fools of themselves. So it's my personal take on it. Alcohol doesn't impress me the way it seems to impress you and I have other things I enjoy more. Don't waste your sympathy on me,please...I don't want it or need it. <<
>>You bring up the doke at every possible opportunity and I'm just pointing out that what I wear isn't ever going to physically harm someone. <<
And my enjoying the occasional beer does? Please. Your barking up the wrong tree, Ms.
The funny thing is, I have no problem with the occasional drink. You, on the other hand, defend the wearing of the doke which I don’t even think you believe is Biblical.
You need to find some hypocrisy in me, puddin cake. Keep trying.
C'mon, cupcake. I don't think I've had one since Saturday. A beer that is. I'll be a gentleman.It doesn't even have to be a Holdi-kiss. Just on the cheek.
This message has been edited by Sirius65 on Jun 24, 2008 6:41 PM
Puddin cake is back. After an hour of pushmowing I feel much better! Now I will try to rationally explain why I use emotional thinking here. When you bring up the doke thing it does get a little personal with me to say nothing of being tired of hearing about it..I would like to know where I defended it? I don't recall doing so but I'm sure if I did you will know exactly where it is and post it helpfully for me,lol! But you remind me so much of some Holdeman preachers that I get riled. You bring up the doke thing,and then take everything I say and turn it to use it on me,then you finish up figuratively smoothing your shiny pant leg and flicking a speck of dust off your patent tie shoe,while making it look like you were right all along and come out oily and unruffled as usual,and I am still snarling and glaring.
What can I say? I am so blessed by the men in my life circles that I think I'll come share a celebratory beer with you. In my tie down of course. If I use my black parachute I should get there fairly soon. Cheers!
Related ItemsMore News by TopicLivestock Farmers in Canada and the U.S. left holding flocks of pigeons after the reported bankruptcy of Pigeon King International shouldn't just release the birds, a national fanciers' group urged Monday.
Ontario farm media reported last week that farmers in several provinces who had invested in meat pigeons through Waterloo, Ont. company PKI have now received notice from PKI that it will enter bankruptcy protection.
The Canadian Pigeon Fanciers' Association (CPFA) on Monday released a statement that led off by emphasizing it has "no affiliation of any sort" with the company, founded by businessman Arlan Galbraith.
The CPFA, which represents pigeon fanciers and hobbyists from coast to coast, said in its statement that it "expresses deep sympathy for people affected by the apparent collapse of Pigeon King International, and great concern for the birds involved."
However, the group said, "on humanitarian grounds (CPFA) strongly advises against the release into the wild of pigeons originating from Pigeon King International operations."
Instead, the group said it "urges persons involved in those operations to find humane solutions to any issues arising from the apparent demise of Pigeon King International."
According to a June 20 article on the web site of Ontario's Better Farming magazine, the notice from Galbraith to those holding PKI birds says they "are free to deal with the pigeons in their barns in any way they choose. You can sell them for whatever price you want to whomever you want. You can auction them off. You can let them fly free in the fields with the wild pigeons. You can gas them and bury them on your farm."
PKI, which according to several published reports has solicited investment in several provinces and states, is reported to have collected thousands of dollars per investor in return for breeding stock, to raise pigeons for what the company said would eventually be a processing operation producing pigeon meat, also called squab.
The office of Iowa attorney general Tom Miller in late 2007 began investigating the company, saying Dec. 13 that it issued a formal "civil investigative demand" asking PKI and Galbraith to provide various detailed information about their operation and plans for the future.
Iowa's demand said Miller's office had "concerns" that PKI's business practices may be violating the state's Consumer Fraud Act and the Iowa Business Opportunities Law, including "misleading consumers regarding the true viability of establishing several large pigeon processing plants within a time frame that would allow the business opportunity marketed by the respondent (PKI) to have a legitimate independent business purpose" other than "providing inventory for new growers in furtherance of a 'Ponzi' type of investment scheme."
Miller's office said in a Dec. 21 statement that it had received materials from PKI and its farm division would review them.
This is an awesome responsibility. But if it IS the one true world then my men won't need to fight so that would make my job quite easy so then I could sit in the King's Palace and my men would cater to my every whim. I might even have you bring me a beer.(gasp)And bring me pigeons to eat.(getting back on topic)
This message has been edited by GMman1 on Jun 24, 2008 9:52 PM
Hey, give GM a break. We got in late last night. After the bars closed we sneaked into cupcakes house and raided her doke drawer. This coming halloween we're going as Holdeman women.
Sirius, I'm sorry. I am not proud of the way I acted yesterday and I'm not going to excuse my rudeness. I'll try to not act like this again for at least a week.
Paris, I don't think we can base our apologies on whether someone is a buffoon or not. (grinning) It has to do with how we feel about what we allow ourselves personally...
Kevin, I'm not sorry I called you a buffoon, I'm sorry I called you that in public.
Just kidding,,cupcake I had not heard that sentiment before only felt it. I guess apologies are a way of humbling ourselves in hope of soothing a hurt we may have put on someone else.
An apology CAN be to soothe someone's hurt feelings and that has its place but usually I think of an apology as a humbling experience when I admit that "Hey,I was a jerk and I'm sorry" type of thing. I dunno-I guess it's a combination...
It's funny and interesting to me that you are analyzing an apology... makes me think about why we do it.
>>An apology CAN be to soothe someone's hurt feelings and that has its place but usually I think of an apology as a humbling experience when I admit that "Hey,I was a jerk and I'm sorry" type of thing. I dunno-I guess it's a combination...
It's funny and interesting to me that you are analyzing an apology... makes me think about why we do it.<<
It's definetly 2 parts,,if we only do it because we want to feel better OURSELVES,,then I think we may have missed the point of an apology,,
You see until you said what you said,,I don't know if I have gone so much about apologies for my own personal "feeling better" as that only can come when an apology is accepted,,for the most part.
There are 2 kinds of appologies the way I see it, I can be genuinely sorry that I said what I did hurting someones feelings or stepping out of line. Or I can say I am sorry to appease the other person so that I can still interact with them which is fake. And sometimes you get one or the other but if you deal with the people on a daily bases fake often shows through.
I agree with you that if an apology is made only so we can feel better that we are selfish. I think the apology needs to be made also because we are telling the other party that we realize that we acted out of place and that we felt like they needed to know that I knew was wrong. If we only do it to soothe someone else,than a lot of times it tends to happen again because we really didn't see our wrong in it and just want to make the other person feel better.
This message has been edited by foamhead on Jun 25, 2008 9:16 AM
I agree Howie,,I think it is vital to analyze an apology before we give it, we need to understand what we did and why we owe one, or it can just become empty words.
When my boys where young, they would do things that they would owe an apology for and I would make them go to their room and think about it, I would say "go think about it and come back when you can apologize" and then they would inevitably come back 2 minutes later and sheepishly say "I'm sorry" then I would make them tell me what they were sorry for,,, That always sent them back to their room for further thinking,,,I made them verbalize it before I accepted it.
I have also heard that we should never ask someone to forgive us and that was an interesting thought to me. I grew up with the "I'm sorry will you forgive me" phrase being standard but since I heard that it makes perfect sense to me. It's our responsibility to apologize when needed but to ask the other person to forgive us isn't always fair to them. Forgiveness is theirs to give when and if they want to and if they choose not to,we put them on the spot by asking. Once we have apologized, then the ball is in their court and it's up to them. Should we ever feel like we "deserve" forgiveness?
As Christians we are called to forgive, and we are even to love our enemies.
I think it would feel like someone was putting me on the spot if they asked for my forgiveness maybe too soon, especially if it was a moral transgression or abusive.
I have always been taught that forgiveness is a 2 part process, we need to forgive for ourselves because it's not good to harbor unforgiveness but we do not have to always reconcile. Forgiveness yes reconciliation not always.
Paris what do you tell your kids when they ask you why they should forgive someone when they don't apologize and show remorse, ask for forgiveness...even Jesus doesn't.
You don't ask for forgiveness you burn in hell....so what is going on here???? Do we not burn in hell, or does Jesus ask us to do something He isn't willing to do?
My daughters question last night....anybody have a good answer to give my 11 year old?????
Ok. A little more humiliation coming up. Straightforward answer? When I started my day this morning,I had this feeling that God was a little disappointed with the way I mouthed off last night. So I stood up for myself and told you I was sorry. And I am.
And just so you know,I hate admitting I'm wrong.
This message has been edited by foamhead on Jun 25, 2008 11:47 AM
Paris what do you tell your kids when they ask you why they should forgive someone when they don't apologize and show remorse, ask for forgiveness...even Jesus doesn't.
You don't ask for forgiveness you burn in hell....so what is going on here???? Do we not burn in hell, or does Jesus ask us to do something He isn't willing to do?
Ladies Ladies, Jesus forgives us always, He even forgave those whos burn in Hell. They just did NOT accept his forgiveness and believe on him. They are putting themselves in there. Jesus does NOT send anyone to Hell By not believing, and Not accepting people do it to themselves. If you have any scriptures that tell me I am wrong I will rethink it. Until then.
Paris "the boss" comment may work on your kids, but hon, that's not gonna wash with this one. "sigh"
She's gotta try to grasp the concept, she's way to deep a thinker to just accept it is the way we tell her it is without some explanation, she needs to understand the reasoning behind everything. It's exhausting! I can hear her now..."and the sky is blue...sheesh answer the question don't give me that! I already know He's the boss, come on...what does that have to do with my question?"
She's gotta relate to it on some level.
You want to have a girl for the summer Paris???? Trust me, bored you will not be!!!
Ok I do adore her, happy as can be, but keeping up is a challenge. She pushes everything to the limit!
Herman I really like that explanation, gotta mull it over and see where we go with that....
Sorry Z, yes sometimes it is easier to deal with male "logical" thinking as they really do understand the word "boss" with no questions asked. The did not useually ask for an "emotional" answer.
I'm glad and I know God did not give me girls because I would have not had the patience. I can get emotional but only until I am convinced of who the boss is and then I'm satisfied.
Although my younger one went through a time where he used those type question to bond with me. I'm not sure if that makes sense. But he used to try and get me going with all these drawn out questions, after I thought I had given him enough, I told him he had a good strong mind he could figure it out himself..Lights out....
♪*•.¸¸¸♥¸¸¸.•*♪
This message has been edited by pariskat... on Jun 25, 2008 2:47 PM
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There was never any real demand for the product other than to supply the other scamees down the chain.
