How can someone who claims not to be non-resistant claim to be a "follower" of Christ.

John 18:35-37

35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?

36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

...because non-resistance, when externally applied as a guideline to righteousness, is a doctrine, but loving peace is an intrinsic truth.

The use of these verses (John 18:35-37) as an argument for non-resistance and pacifism are incorrectly applied.  Contrary to pacifist thought, non-pacifists do not teach that Christians should go looking for fights, or that they should willingly start wars.  There are many other verses that clearly give the Christian the right and duty to defend himself in the face of mortal danger, and to fulfill a military obligation to his country.

A parting question.......if the anabaptist ancestors were such wonderful pacifists, then why did they flee from every country where they were persecuted?

Here are some good articles that explain the non-pacifist viewpoint.

http://www.lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVanswers/2007/04-29.htm

http://www.lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVarticles/BibleAndAGun.html

Brent D said, There are many other verses that clearly give the Christian the right and duty to defend himself in the face of mortal danger.

Really, were? I really would like for you to show me were in any of Christ teachings that He said it was OK to use force. I think you must be reading a different Bible.

Brent D,

In my understanding, the CGCM position is not pacifist in its truest sense, because we aren't necessarily speaking out against war as a group. We/I believe God has control over the secular governments, if He did not, they would not exist, because they would have self destructed long ago. I believe instead that it is true God has allowed the secular world to rule itself, but I also believe that the Christian should not be involved in the forceful and/or deadly aspect of this rule. This definitely includes voting, police officer, armed forces, etc.

Have you ever read Greg Dyck's book on the subject "The Kingdom of Peace" (I think that's the name of it)? If not, that gives a very solid view of the "official" CGCM position on the subject.

TR, if your church REALLY practiced non-resistence and obedience and respect to government.........

.....your brethren in Quebec would be sending their children to public schools.

 

See, you only practice it when it SUITS YOUR NEEDS!

I've never seen such a brazen group of hypocrites in my life.

I've never seen such a brazen group of hypocrites in my life.

You haven't been around then


There are definitely times that one must obey God rather than men. I do believe that the Quebec case was in fact such a time.

There are definitely times that one must obey God rather than men. I do believe that the Quebec case was in fact such a time.

That's right. I forgot how you can use any "right sounding" phrase to completely skirt your way around a reasonable answer. Perhaps hypocrite is too nice a term to describe your sophistry.

TR, do you have insurance on your farm buildings?

Oh, that's right, it's just "brethren helping brethren". See, if you believed in n/r you should simply accept a thief to steal what you have, then bless him on his way out the door and thank him for raping your wife while he was at it.

I've never seen such a brazen group of hypocrites in my life. You haven't been around then

TR, you are right. I should not "lump" everyone in the same statement. So I will apologize to the non-hypocritical, non-sophist holdemans. See I've been getting my impressions about holdemans lately from You, wtk, and Xepcoh.

(I don't really see any others and other than my mom and dad, my family doesn't talk to me since I "joined the forum")

I'm sorry, I shouldn't judge the others because of how you act.

>>Oh, that's right, it's just "brethren helping brethren". See, if you believed in n/r you should simply accept a thief to steal what you have, then bless him on his way out the door and thank him for raping your wife while he was at it.<<

Ha ha ha ha Peter!! ROFL ! This is one aspect we don't get either! Must be why my hubby has a gun ready for my use when he works nights!! But then,he's not "one of us" either...

Seriously,though,if someone breaks in here and tries to take a child I WILL NEVER stand by without a fight--or a shot,whatever, lol. I just can't get that one.
One of my family told me I shouldn't have a gun around for self protection...she thought I needed to have faith and pray if someone broke in. She thought if God knew I had that gun there with intent to use it that he wouldn't protect me. I'm like,oh no, I'll be praying while I shoot!! (Dear God,please help my aim) !!

Brent D said...There are many other verses that clearly give the Christian the right and duty to defend himself in the face of mortal danger.

wtk said...Really, were? I really would like for you to show me were in any of Christ teachings that He said it was OK to use force. I think you must be reading a different Bible.

Luke 22:36  And He said to them, "But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one.

Ok, maybe that doesn't qualify as "many other verses", but if you actually read the article that I referred you to, you can read a good number of other references that indicate the use of force at the appropriate time.

BrentD-

I think you might lose this one. I'm heading for cover.

I believe instead that it is true God has allowed the secular world to rule itself, but I also believe that the Christian should not be involved in the forceful and/or deadly aspect of this rule. This definitely includes voting, police officer, armed forces, etc.

TR, the reason this viewpoint does not make sense is that it forces all government, protective, and military activities to be anti-Christian by definition.  If these powers are ordained by God, then those that participate in them are participating in God-ordained activities.  They do not participate for their own personal pleasure or vengeance.  They participate under the authority and ordination of God.

Brent, I to believe there is a time for force. Even are church believes that If someone is hurting a child. We would try and restrain them. Yet, I would not have a gun under my belt looking for a opportunity. I see a difference. My personal conviction on N/R is that its Gods perfect judgement. What better way to bring a sinner to repentance than not to render evil for evil. Yet, to do good to them. Not being a pacifist. Yet showing true love to someone who doesn't deserve it. There is no sin in being in the army or being a police officer. They are needed in the world to bring order. Yet, if all were Christan's there would be no need.

>>Yet, if all were Christan's there would be no need.<<

What you really mean is, "if all were Holdemans there would be no need"

I read the aticles that Brent D. refered to and did not find them very convincing as to support a non-pacifist view. They were rather standard positions.

As I read the bible, I understand the New Testament to teach "non-resistance". Love your enemy, don't resist the evil person, etc. This is what I endeavor to follow. Do I feel that everyone should see it like I do? No. Christians should study God's Word, and endeavor to follow the Lord's leading as best they can. If someone were to ask questions of me on this area, I would tell them how I understand it. If they disagree with me, so be it. I do not wish to be drawn into a debate where neither party is trying to learn, but is only hoping to prove that they are right.

For those who might scoff at my understanding of non-resistance, I would only say that I have not arrived where I am at without quite a bit of study, prayer and thought on the matter.

Sirrus, no actually I mean Christan.

ftk 520 pm Really, were? I really would like for you to show me were in any of Christ teachings that He said it was OK to use force. I think you must be reading a different Bible.



wtk, What exactly is the sword for?



Lu 22:36* Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.



is he a minister of God of not?

Ro 13:4* For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Fred, Luke 22 in my mind He was showing the transition from the old to the new. The sword was a representation from the old law. Eye for a eye. Jesus also said, Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Now He said this right after He told them to take the sword. Finally it makes the most sense to the rest of the scripture.

As per Rom 13, I believe that all governments are ordained by God, Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. So I have no problem with them being Gods minister's. Yet, not ministers of His Godly kingdom. That would not be contestant with the rest of scripture.

For what it's worth, here my experience...perhaps a bit of non-resistance and hypocrisy....

When I was a boy I told my H Mom that I wanted to be a police officer and was immediately shot down, as this would be against H beliefs. I asked "why" many times and could never grasp the answers received (just didn't make sense)

But then..when I started working in law enforcement, my family, including my mom, wanted to hear all the stories of "bad guys" going off to jail, and let's not even mention the incidents where "force" was used, those were always a hit...

So which is it? as soon as I finished my training, I heard from several sources that my Mom was bragging me up like nobody's business? so now it's OK?

someone else on here mentioned something about hypocrisy, I "got out of dodge" (no offense to Dodge City) while I was still in my teens, so I don't have as much experience in this matter as some on here, but my whole life growing up everything seemed to contradict with everything else. As an adult, there are even more contradictions than ever, but then again, I never did join up as an H so I never did learn the art of Holdeman Articulation.....


"What you really mean is, "if all were Holdemans there would be no need"

I think a traffic enforcement unit would do well.....

I should stay out of this one, but I'm feeling good this morning.

Some people ask how can a soldier have love in his heart? I say that love is a choice and duty is a reaction or a response, much like blinking your eyes. I will be the first to say that it is indeed a sad thing that the entire world is not Christians and there are things like war. Soldiers need Christ, too!