What does self denial mean to you? I.e.,when the Bible talks about denying self and taking up your cross and following; and the different things it tells us to flee or turn away from?
Is this something that comes naturally when your heart is turned to God or is it meant to be hard?
I have been thinking about this a lot lately and would be interested in your interpretation.

I just wonder if all the small,involving things that I was brought up to deny myself of are really what God had in mind. Also thinking that automatically not doing some of the things we have always heard labeled wrong doesn't necessarily mean much. It has to be a heart matter. I am not trying to knock the Holdeman church here but I am trying to figure out where to find myself in all this. I realize we cannot get around what God says but I know that everyone understands the Bible a little differently and then when you throw in all the little traditional and cultural "things" and taboos just among the people,it seems to take a lot of discernment to grasp what is required of one as an individual. Another thing I have been thinking of: The more things we are taught to not do,the more we want to do them if the reasoning behind not doing it isn't understood,especially when it comes to traditional reasons.

Most every question has a zillion wrong answers and one right one. Maybe this is why it is easier to say what something IS NOT than what it IS. For example, I don't know what the moon is made of, but I know its not made from cheese.

I believe your question falls in this category. What self-denial is not is denying yourself cameras, guitars, neckties, and white-walled tires.

But the first and huge thing that comes to mind that we are commanded to deny ourselves the pleasure of, is the wrong tree in the garden, i.e., the tree of knowledge. I also see a clear scriptural pattern of denying ourselves selfish decisions which harm others, and the second is likely imbedded in the first somehow.

According to scripture, Adam was commanded to not eat of that wrong tree. The meaning and purposes of the two trees can be distilled down to basically, walking in love, understanding, and compassion, versus walking according to religious doctrine.

If the sojourn in the wilderness is a valid type and shadow for us, then every believer will encounter Mt Sinai (where the law was given) shortly after leaving Egypt. The sequence is important here. Entering the Promised land was way down the road from Mt Sinai. Most of the story is comprised of them not being able to keep the law. Thats most of our story to. We are quick to build a calf at the base of that mountain. They had the option of hearing it straight from God (having it written on their hearts), but that was too graphic and too honest, so they opted out to have it written on stone, i.e., bible doctrine and practice. Moundridge, to this very day,is still cranking out stone tablets.

A person has 2 selves - the one that God created - the true self (or OTS), who we really are - and the one that we created - the one that we, or others think we are. I believe it is this imaginary self that Jesus said to take up our cross daily and crucify it. I think it is more than a daily thing, though, and more of a moment by moment thing. I think the hardest part comes in remembering to do this. We are so caught up in our imaginary self that we forget who we really are. We let our thoughts or other's comments dictate who we think we should be and leave God out of the picture.

**And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.**

I didn't read Scott's post before I posted but I would agree with him too.

**And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.**

I have enjoyed the honest and open way in which this very central thing is being approached here.

Cupcake you do not have to come against any church system to question and dissect this vital issue. What your heart is questioning is simple legalism versus the moment to moment walk that is Spiritually more real in nature!

Every believer should diligently search his or her way through this maze. It is a maze. And it's because of what occurred in the Eden scenario that the believer gets into this maze. We are easily deceived on this one and the deception lies on the side of legalism. We have been seduced first, in so doing we have become preoccupied with good and evil.

The religious part of us tends to think that the deception lies on the side of freedom and grace.

We were never meant to enter into a place where all things are preceived as either right or wrong. Some of our early training was contrary to real Truth!

The chief apostle said it this way; I perceive that of itself, nothing is wrong, but some things are simply not appropriate or expedient. This apostle was a man of Grace and Freedom!

The [self] itself must be denied. It's this very self that thinks in such terms as right and wrong. All thoughts of right and wrong are of the religious and false self!

We can actually take up the Cross of Jesus where this [self] finally dies!

We do not deny ourselves of things, that's the root of all legalism. That's where it starts. We deny the [false self] itself if and when we take up the actual Cross of Christ.

The Adams had the same choices to the front of them as we have and they opted out for legalism. Adam in his last estate fixed the thing provided [by Faith] we can take ahold of his fix! To become as gods in the earth was the original temptation. To be godly was the cookie held out in front of the Adams. They took the idea and leaped through the hoop.

The beast part of us will do almost any trick for a cookie but the Spiritual part of us [once we are born of His Spirit] knows better than this. That's the battle ground.

Mt 16:24* Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

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21* ¶ From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22* Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.




Mr 8:34* And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.






Lu 9:23* And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.



in these portions of scripture we see Jesus realizing his calling was to suffer, Peter and/ or the 12 were attempting to say "not so". The denial of self and the reference held in these verses was to allow the natural ebb and tide of things that were to play out in the Providence of God, to come to pass even if it cost life or limb. It has no connotation at all to the self will of the "victim" except that he should allow evil to happen to him without compromising integrity.


With all due respect to the dear Holdies, there is no way they (as individuals) could compromise truth "in the spirit of unity" and still claim to be denying self. The motivations of deference to unity are held in a fear of the ministry and the evil they could cause ones life if a refusal to submit to them arose. This is easily proven by consideration of the fact that when one defers to "unity" it also "troubles" the individual, and cause him to have to "pray" for deliverance for the troubling. That deliverance is a searing of the conscience, and the troubling is the Holy spirit attempting to wake the individual up to Love the Lord more than the H.

Had Christ only pulled the punch a little, the leaders wouldn't have crucified him! So if the H disciples wouldn't pull the punch a little neither would they experience the wrath of their leaders.

THis is just a small illustration but a man must stand for truth, even if he remains mute, but when confronted if he claims unity or submission over honesty, that spirit is simply a compromise that takes one out of the kingdom of truth, and into a jurisdiction that Christ never envisioned for his children

It looks like there are several good answers here. I think the taking up the cross and denying oneself can apply in several ways.

1. Kind of like Fred said....denying ourselves the want to try and change things against what God has set in motion. Jesus could have tried to escape from being captured and spared his own life.. but he denied the desire of self-preservtion to do God's will.
At times God asks each of us to do something that is extremely hard.. and it would be much easier to take the easy way out and justify our actions.. with things like well God would want me to be happy.. etc., than it is to commit to do His will no matter what the cost.

2. I also think that denying ourselves and taking up the cross also applies daily.. with little things.. like someone cuts us off in traffic.. we deny the desire to respond in the flesh and go and cut them off. (Some of the things mentioned Gal. 3:19-21.

3. I also think that sometimes it can be denying our selves of some of the things like cameras, computers, tv, etc. This would be when God has shown a person that they need to say not get on the computer for awhile because it is taken the place of God in their lives or the time they spend doing God's will. I.e. kinda like Nascar was saying... God challenged him to spend as much time in the nursing homes as he was on the computer. Nascar denied himself of something that he has fun doing BUT God had something else for him at this time.

It really boils down to following the leading of the Holy Spirit and doing what God tells you to do. When we do that.. yeah we may deny ourselves of many things.. AND we may also accept many things that God has for us.

Scott & Doug
Awesome posts! There is more than bones on that chicken! Protein!!!

This thing called salvation is about being actually restored and then operating from the overflow of this restoration rather than operating from a position of religious performance. If we ever really get this into our hearts, everything in our life now changes and life itself becomes a grand adventure in Christ Jesus, rather than a religious excerise in performance.

Incidently the Greek word used that is translated salvation means for the greater part; restoration. Jesus said he came to restore what had been lost and also who was lost!

Doug,
Thank you for that last post.

I was texting a friend all day because he felt he had let God down. I was just praying and asking God how to reply to the last text message. I refreshed this site and your post was here. I copied it and sent it. It was exactly what that person needed. I just got a thank you and a smiley back. So I want to thank you as well.

That's good stuff. Makes it all worth it!

Cupcake.. I missed part of question as to rather it is easy or hard? I don't think it is an either or situation. Sometime it is very easy to deny oneself of things. Other times it can be extremely hard. Somethings that we deny ourselves on.. we can see some of the extra benefits of following Christ in that area.... so we can know the outcome and say.. yeah.. this is good. Other times.. our focus may be more on what are denying.. and wonder if it is worth it. The good news.. though.. when we are faced with either one of those.. we can ask God for the strength to bear it.

Thank you,all of you! I wondered if I would get any light so I was pleasantly surprised when I logged in and saw these. It has been a really interesting line of thought for me. Some of the thoughts on here are what has just been opening up to me. I think there is a time in our life for everything and sometimes God doesn't bring us something until we are ready to start understanding it? I sometimes wonder if I am just beginning to see how messed up some of my thinking is. This is so ingrained in those of us brought up to deny ourselves of everything that has been written out as being wrong and I think we miss it completely. We can have these little perimetersthat God is allowed inside of and we have a certain way we expect him to act,respond and answer and we think there's a certain way we pray and about what to expect and I think when we leave religion and everything that goes along with it out of the picture God responds in ways we have never experienced before. Right or wrong?
I have an example here of expected self denial: Since we have doctrines and rules about certain things (I'll use radio,tv,cameras-for example)being wrong and are expected to use self denial in these areas;if someone has something like this they are considered off track and heading into the ditch,no question. OK,now while I am in town,a "brother" passes in front of me in his very shiny,waxed '08 Z71 that is fully loaded inside. Now this is looked at with tolerance and he is very attached to it and his whole life revolves around having everything like this. This man is commented on sometimes and the comment is made "that's just him". This man is not denying himself of anything because he is doing what he loves to do and it's overlooked because there is no obvious well known rule on it that has been much debated and decided on so we all know where the church stands on it. But this man's obvious attachment falls under a somewhat elusive belief that we shouldn't look proud/get attached to things of this world but rather keep our affection on God. Now the next person is found to have a camera and occasionally takes some pictures and stores them in his drawer. But this is immediately judged to be wrong and there is no doubt this brother is spinning out in the left ditch. Now what is the difference here? Is this God? Would he work in confusion like this? What about the woman who is known far and wide to be a vicious gossip and loves to rip people apart? This is just "her" and she gets avoided a little maybe but imagine if some mild,sweet lady had a radio or recorder that she used for gospel music? Guess who would be looked at funny. I think it's pretty clear which would appear more grievous to God.
I realize I am talking about "things" (Holditalk ) but I'm trying to bring out a double standard that I think we are so into we don't realize what a double standard we have.
I think we can follow all the rules and deny ourselves of every little microscopic thing and look perfect on the outside and not have a scrap of godliness or have a clue what God really means by self denial. I have more but I'm getting frustrated trying to put it down so I'll quit for now

I read these posts over again and just wanted to tell you all that I am impressed with your insight. Some of the thoughts make more sense than I have seen for a long time on this topic.

It's not about our want's and needs it's about finding out what God has planned for each and every one of us. I hardly think you can put forth a list of things like cameras tv's and clothing and then say "look God what I'm giving up as "self denial" that's more about taking up "your cross" the one YOU created to make yourself feel worthy or better.

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Do you have hope that if you get baptized into the correct chuch that you will somehow be better for it?

Do you have hope that if the minister's deem you worthy your communion will mean more?

Do you have hope that if you keep wearing your head cover that you will be more valuable in the kingdom?

Do you have hope that your church is closer to the true example of the pure spotless bride of Christ?

Go ahead deny yourself,,,go to another church,,take communion,,,with your headcover off,,see if Jesus still loves and accepts you,, deny what you think you know and Jesus will show you truth. He will show you the cross.


"The terrible thing, the almost impossible thing, is to hand over your whole self--all your wishes and precautions--to Christ.

"Christ says 'Give me All. I don't want so much of your time and so much of your money and so much of your work: I want You. I have not come to torment your natural self, but to kill it. No half measures are any good. I don't want to cut off a branch here and a branch there, I want to have the whole tree down. I don't want to drill the tooth, or crown it, or stop it, but to have it out. Hand over the whole natural self, all the desires which you think innocent as well as the ones you think wicked--the whole outfit. I will give you a new self instead. In fact, I will give you Myself: My own will shall become yours.'...

C.S. Lewis.






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I was asked a couple of months ago - Is the cross too hard to bear? And I had to admit I was speechless, I did not know what cross I was to bear. I looked in the scriptures and realized perhaps I was missing something. I knew that I was very blessed and I made a point of looking on the positive. In fact if I did not I doubt if I could make it. I lost 2 wives and 1 farm that were incredible dreams but niether of these were crosses that I could choose to pick up or not too. However I do realize that I have crosses that I must bear, There are people that I come in contact with at times that are hard to deal with in a positive fashion. There are times that I must learn to button my lips and listen. There are times when I want to brag or talk of myself and I should be listening or asking questions. And there are times when I am not sure where God is leading me and yet I do not want to just sit and not move? And with a past like mine I sometimes need to just bow my head and thank God for his forgiveness and deliverence. Amd yes going to a holdeman community and not knowing who is going to reach out there hand to shake mine and who is not is sometimes somewhat of a cross.

Herman