Professor Rip (the horse) is teaching class today. Rip has heard that some are disputing the concept of free-will. Rip has heard that some are even saying that the only horeses that shouldn't be immediately shipped to the glue factory or those docile colts that WANT to be ridden in the hot sun, and that do NOT want to play with the fillies in the cool meadow, and that do NOT prefer to be in the barn eating oats from the manger. Rip wants to set the record straight, and he will use the round pen as an object lesson.


Now Oldmanrip is 1200 pounds of free-will, and not one ounce of it wants to serve man. All 19200 ounces of Rip wants to goof off in the shade, and play with the fillies. Certainly not to chase and goad some stubborn steer into a trailer under the hot dry Kansas sun. But Rip has one thing going for him. His free-will is not fixed. Its not a constant value. Rip's decision maker (his free-will) makes these decisions based on his equestrian world view, and this world-view is largely based on past experience, poetential examples are, bucking a cowboy off and getting away with it, or having a puma jump on his back when he went under the cottonwood tree.

So we never dispute Rip's free-will. We freely admit that with 19200 ounces of stubborn horse meat, we can't force him. In fact, if you force a horse, you cause immediate fear, and fear cancels learning, period. Do you hear that Christians? If a horse is afraid and you force him, all you do is make the problem worse, way worse. The only thing a fearful horse can learn is how to be disfunctional (just a little side note here). Now feel free to apply what you just learned to the BS of eternal torment for misunderstanding a bible doctrine.

But anyway, if you drag a horse into a trailer with a winch, it scares the hell out of him, and all he will learn is how to bang his head on the roof and how to tear the trailer apart. To train a horse, you must work with his free-will. It has to be his idea, and then he learns, i.e., forms a useful habit.

So that is what the roundpen does. It does not dispute the horese's free-will, and it does not force the horse against his will (which is ample by the way), but it modifies his world-view, the model, which forms the basis from which free-will (the decision maker) operates.


So this is the solution to the entire dilemma of mans free will versus God's sovereignty. This solution has apparently remained hidden for two thousand years, because apparently, the last two thousand years have been wasted disputing between which of two wrong answers is the right one.

Bottom line, man has total free-will, and God has a total sovereignty, and it is God's sovereignty which puts you in the round pen. When God put Saul in the round pen, to my knowledge, God didn't force Saul down on his knees, but Saul's free-will put him there. God didn't interfere with that part. The Damascus road stuff changed Saul's model, his world view, and Saul's free-will then responded appropriately.

How did we miss this simple truth for so long?

I don't think it can be said any better.

God didn't force the brothers to bow to their long lost brother Joseph, however circumstance held in the sovereignty Of God made them want to, even when the thought to do so was contemptible even a few years earlier

Now, if the roundpen can bring the most stubborn horse to obedience and trust in the trainer, and if God wills that all men come to repentence, then what would God's excuse be for not putting every single man in the roundpen until they all freely confess truth? Doesn't every man deserve a Damascus road experience? Isn't hitting the rocks on the road kinder than eternal torment? Are we saying that some men are so hard that a roundpen cannot be found to bring him around? I doubt that. All men will eventually be saved. It is only a question of when and how. The Catholics Church has a good shadow of truth here with their funky view of purgatory. Some men receive and respond to the round pen here. Some will have to get it later, but eventually every knee will bow and confess. The scriptures say over and over that all men will be saved, but some through tremendous purging. Christians hate this idea. They do NOT want all men to be saved, because they want their "decision for Christ", and their "obedience" to have extreme merit. Of course, they refuse to admit this because their doctrine doesn't allow them to be honest about their self rightness. If what I'm saying is true, then no Christian can boast of his decision. Furthermore, the belief that asserts you will burn if hell eternally if you leave our little culture club becomes too absurd to even process.

The bible speaks of two classes of believers, i.e., overcomers, and then the rest. The overcomers receive the round pen in this life. The non-overcoming believers are not tortured eternally but get a purging in the lake of fire, and of course this is a refiners fire, and is to purify and not to torture.


Some horses with good potential are stubborn. For god to send all disobedient men to etnernal torment would be as stupid and wasteful as sending a stubborn horse to the glue factory instead of the round pen.

The God I have pesonally chosen to follow after is the one who elected and called me! This God is altogether and eternally redemptive and does not quit because we may have a belief that may vary from His eternal and redemptive nature. He is the same; yesterday, today, and forever. What He starts he finishes and that is different from some of us in our work loads.

There is no varibleness in Him nor any shadow of turning. We understand this once we intimately come to know Him!

His will is that all of mankind will come to repentance; will He ultimately get His will in His own universe or will He not? Is he soverign or is He not? Some come by Grace and others come by Fire. He is this consuming Fire. There is no eternal Fire other than He! "He is a refiner's Fire and He is a fuller's soap". Nothing gets by Him ultimately! He gets His will and His purpose, He is God! We do well to worship Him, as God!

Scott,
Love the analogy!

The verse that immediately came to mind is either you fall on the rock and be broken or the rock will fall on you and you will be crushed.

The only place I would differ with you is that I say the fire is today and not necessarily in the future. I look around and I see people living in hell. Not saying it could not also be in some form in the hereafter but highly doubt it...unless there is a round two, which could be plausible. Oh boy, what did I just say! Oh well, it is the week of the fourth let the fireworks begin early.


I did not see you edited before I posted. I agree with the changes.

I think I spent a lot of years in the round pen

All men will eventually be saved.

Oh yea! Scott, I don't think so! Where did you dream that up?

Fred, does the very idea annoy you?

Actually not at all, personally I don't particularly care what God does, his business is his business, But I don't see the scripture saying all men will be saved.

why would it annoy me either way?

Mr 13:13* And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

<<< Oh yea! Scott, I don't think so! Where did you dream that up? >>>

here!


1) 1Tim 2:4 God will have all to be saved. (KJV) Can His will be thwarted?

2) 1Tim 2:4 God desires all to come to the knowledge of truth Will His desire come to pass?

3) 1Tim 2:6 Salvation of all is testified in due time Are we judging God before due time?

4) Jn 12:47 Jesus came to save all Will He succeed?

5) Eph 1:11 God works all after the counsel of His will Can your will overcome His?

6) Jn 4:42 Jesus is Savior of the world Can He be Savior of all without saving all?

7) 1Jn 4:14 Jesus is Savior of the world Why don’t we believe it?

8) Jn 12:32 Jesus will draw all mankind unto Himself To roast or to love?

9) Col 1:16 By Him all were created Will He lose a part of His creation?

10) Rm 5:15-21 In Adam all condemned, in Christ all live The same all?

11) 1Cor 15:22 In Adam all die, in Christ all live Again, the same all?

12) Eph 1:10 All come into Him at the fulness of times Are you getting tired of seeing the word, all?

13) Phl 2:9-11 Every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord Will the Holy Spirit be given to everyone?

14) 1 Cor 12:3 Cannot confess except by Holy Spirit See what I mean?

15) Rm 11:26 All Israel will be saved But most Jews don’t believe yet!

16) Acts 3:20,21 Restitution of all How plain can you get?

17) Luke 2:10 Jesus will be joy to all people Is there joy is "hell"?

18) Heb 8:11,12 All will know God How long, O Lord?

19) Eph 2:7 His grace shown in the ages to come Have we judged Him before the time?

20) Titus 2:11 Grace has appeared to all Experientially or prophetically?

21) Rm 8:19-21 Creation set at liberty How much of creation?

22) Col 1:20 All reconciled unto God There’s that word "all" again.

23) 1Cor 4:5 All will have praise of God What for?

24) Jms 5:11 End of the Lord is full of mercy Is "hell" mercy?

25) Rev 15:4 All nations worship when God’s judgments are seen Could His judgment be mercy?

26) Rm 11:32 All subject to unbelief, mercy on all All?

27) Rm 11:36 All out of, through, and into Him All into Him?

28) Eph 4:10 Jesus will fill all things Including "hell?"

29) Rev 5:13 All creation seen praising God Including Satan?

30) 1Cor 15:28 God will be all in all What does that mean?

31) Rev 21:4,5 No more tears, all things made new "All" made new?

32) Jn 5:25 All dead who hear will live How many will hear?

33) Jn 5:28 All in the grave will hear & come forth How will the "righteous" judge?

34) 1 Cor 3:15 All saved, so as by fire How can fire save you?

35) Mk 9:49 Everyone shall be salted with fire Including you?

36) Rm 11:15 Reconciliation of the world Will fire save the world instead of destroy it?

37) 2Cor 5:15 Jesus died for all Did He die in vain?

38) Jn 8:29 Jesus always does what pleases His Father What pleases the Father? (1Tim 2:4)

39) Heb 1:2 Jesus is Heir of all things Does "things" include people?

40) Jn 17:2 Jesus gives eternal life to all that His Father gave Him How many did the Father give Him?

41) Jn 3:35 The Father gave Him all things (Repeated for emphasis) Study the word "things" in the Greek.

42) 1 Tim 4:9-11 Jesus is Savior of all! Jesus is Savior of all! Can’t seem to get away from that word "all."

43) Heb. 7:25 Jesus is able to save to the uttermost How far is "uttermost?"

44) 1Cor 15:26 Last enemy, death, will be destroyed Including "lake of fire" which is "second death?"

45) Is 46:10 God will do all His pleasure Does Old Testament agree with the New?

46) Gen 12:3 All families of the earth will be blessed Here comes that word "all" again.

47) Dan 4:35 God’s will done in heaven and earth What can defeat His will?

48) Ps 66:3,4 Enemies will submit to God Can any stay rebellious in "hell?"

49) Ps 90:3 God turns man to destruction, then says return How can one return from "destruction?"

50) Is 25:7 Will destroy veil spread over all nations All nations?

51) Deut 32:39 He kills and makes alive Kills to bring life?

52) Ps 33:15 God fashions all hearts "All" hearts, including men like "Hitler?"

53) Prv 16:9 Man devises, God directs his steps What about "free will?"

54) Prv 19:21 Man devises, but God’s counsel stands So much for "free will."

55) La 3:31,32 God will not cast off forever Why does He cast off in the first place? (1 Cor 11)

56) Is 2:2 All nations shall flow to the Lord’s house "All" nations?

57) Ps 86:9 All nations will worship Him "All" nations!

58) Is 45:23 All descendants of Israel justified Including the wicked ones?

59) Ps 138:4 All kings will praise God Are you catching on?

60) Ps 65:2-4 All flesh will come to God That sounds wondrous.

61) Ps 72:18 God only does wondrous things I wish we would believe that.

62) Is 19:14,15 Egypt & Assyria will be restored Really?

63) Ezk 16:55 Sodom will be restored to former estate Sounds impossible.

64) Jer 32:17 Nothing is too difficult for Him Nothing? No, nothing!

65) Ps 22:27 All ends of the earth will turn to Him For what purpose?

66) Ps 22:27 All families will worship before Him Praise His name!

67) Ps 145:9 He is good to all Including your worst enemies.

68) Ps 145:9 His mercies are over all his works Let’s start believing that.

69) Ps 145:14 He raises all who fall Who hasn’t fallen in sin?

70) Ps 145:10 All His works will praise Him For "eternal torment?"

71) Is 25:6 Lord makes a feast for all people And you are invited.

72) Jer 32:35 Never entered His mind to eternally torture his children with fire Came from man’s mind.

73) Jn 6:44 No one can come to Him unless He draws them You can’t "chose" to follow Him.

74) Jn 12:32 I will draw all mankind unto Myself Amen!!!

75) Ps 135:6 God does what pleases Him. If it pleases Him to save all that He might be in all, are you upset?

<<< I don't particularly care what God does, his business is his business, >>>

Well Fred, your own words accuse you. Is this how Abraham or Moses responded when God speculated on wasting a bunch people? Did they say they didn't care? Did they say, God, do what you want. Fred, do you have any idea what you revealed in your last post. I refuse to even clarify it for your own sake. What I mean, is, I like you, and I refuse to help readers see how bad you augered in on this one.

Scott, I meant that his will is revealed in the Word, I have surrendered myself to accept the word, and to answer arguments of life and philosophy by that word, whether or not my own reasoning agree or not.

I don't care because God said it, I believe it, and that settles it.

you are sort of hung up on people being threatened with eternal loss by hellfire preachers or whoever, but I don't threaten people with "hell" or eternal loss. My job is to get me and mine there, and maybe help a few others, But I don't know the people that you seem to think, that I think are lost. because I don't know who is lost.

Stop jerking my chain Fred. You simply took your original statement, and added so many words and religious talk that some won't even figure out you said absolutely nothing new, and absolutely did not justify how you have an opposite position from the proactive compassion that Abraham and Moses demonstrated. You believe in "free-will", and yet you are advocating being a spritual robot. You say, God said it and I believe it. What a foolish mantra. Just what did God say Fred?

Scott, it takes a lot of scripture to prove false doctrine, I went through a few of your verses, and found I am truly shocked at your dishonesty!


1) 1Tim 2:4 God will have all to be saved. (KJV) Can His will be thwarted?

Nope, will have doesn't mean it is going to happen. More it means he wants it to happen

2) 1Tim 2:4 God desires all to come to the knowledge of truth Will His desire come to pass?


a desire is not happening



3) 1Tim 2:6 Salvation of all is testified in due time Are we judging God before due time?

KJV6* Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
He paid the ransom but that does not mean they escaped, many kidnappers kill the victim, the ransom has to be received, accepted, and in honor



4) Jn 12:47 Jesus came to save all Will He succeed?
?



5) Eph 1:11 God works all after the counsel of His will Can your will overcome His?

6) Jn 4:42 Jesus is Savior of the world Can He be Savior of all without saving all?

7) 1Jn 4:14 Jesus is Savior of the world Why don’t we believe it?


Scott, I am astonished at your intellectual dishonesty in choosing this mass fortress of almost scriptures! None say all will be saved!



8) Jn 12:32 Jesus will draw all mankind unto Himself To roast or to love?


Okay here is a good one

kjv2* And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto

Now, he does draw all men to truth, but not all men love truth! to be attracted to a thing, look at it, and then walk away is not the same thing as all me are to be saved.





9) Col 1:16 By Him all were created Will He lose a part of His creation?

this verse would take tons of presumptions to amke it say all will be saved


10) Rm 5:15-21 In Adam all condemned, in Christ all live The same all?



17* For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)


Scott!

much more they which receive
much more they which receive
much more they which receive
much more they which receive

WHo? oh, they which receive

11) 1Cor 15:22 In Adam all die, in Christ all live Again, the same all?

kjv 22* For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
obviously the same "all" that are in Christ!

You say, God said it and I believe it. What a foolish mantra. Just what did God say Fred?

Scott, I am a simple man from a very lost family. I was going down the wrong road, and very unhappy with my life, actually seriously considering suicide.

I started reading the scripture, and applying it to real areas in my life, and I found it fascinating, exciting, and actually very fulfilling. Youdon't have to do it. But I like to.


The horse trainer puts horses in a round pen, so God does do the same to man and this infuriates satan and his hordes.





Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.


Now Job accepted the leading of God in blessing and in cursing or the withdrawal of the round-pen so to speak.

God said it, I believe it, that settles it.

Well Fred, doesn't look like we will changing each others minds anytime soon does it?

I don't know, Scott, I have learned a lot off you. My mind is not so stuck that I can't listen, and I still like you, I don't naturally trust people that agree with me!


I just don't think everything you say about eternity is exactly "kosher', so I like to compare it to the scripture.

Scott,

You have been asked more than once, and I think it is time you addressed the issue.

The issue is... The Devil.

The devil was once in heaven, as you and I both know.

Do you believe that the devil will be put in this roundpen that you speak of, and eventually be back in Heaven?

If so, do you have more than the reasoning of man to back it up?



The reason we want this issue addressed is this: If God did not spare the natural branches, why would He spare us?



I know you feel passionate about your current view, but please, Scott. I can't reason my way around this issue without having this addressed by you... will you help me?

In regards to your verses, I believe they are all true. However, something I believe you are missing is that God, in His sovereign power, has the authourity to set the rules. He is the one who decided to give man a free will to decide. This view allows me to align my beliefs with the verses you presented, it also allows me to believe that when the Bible speaks of ETERNAL torment, it means the same thing as ETERNAL paradise.

You can't scripturally have an eternal heaven if you don't accept an eternal hell.

I read through the posts.

I hear no one argue that the Fire is not eternal. What I hear argued is that the punishment is either eternal or that the punishment is not eternal but corrective and refining.

What I shall add here is this; if the eternal fire holds men and women eternally then why did the writer speak of [an age to endure] in the early Greek texts and yet the King's English uses such words as [forever] in the place of [an age to endure]?

It appears to me that the English of the sevententh century are those who had the mean spirit in them and not the God of Love who, it says, has no shadow of turning in Him. Can anyone on this forum believe that it is we [as the English of the seventeenth century] who have the same mean spirit somewhere in us? That would be somewhere below our loving exteriors where this God has been able to pentretrate us.

You see, none of us have been there in an eternal Fire and to speak of it is all in the realm of mentally assenting to something we have read or something we have thought of.

God indeed reveals His nature to mankind and this nature is not mean and torturing. We know that an act is commited by the nature of an individual. This is not a belief, this is something we know.

Can the believer who has initially been drawn by the Love of God to Himself readily and easily assume that some sort of wisdom to eternally torture men and women will take over in the mind of God at some point? He cannot revert to a primordial nature for He has none.

To assume that some particular nature in God will manifest eternal torture at some point does not happen readily or spontaneousely in those who have been drawn to Him by the nature of Love and Mercy! Should we force ourselves to think poorly of our God because we have misunderstood some things? If He actually said it I do believe it, but there are translations into which basic human nature has leaked. Our security can be in the Person of the Lord Jesus and is so when we are found in Him! Translations no longer serve now as our security blankets. Many people are only secure when they feel that they are [right] about things rather than by being found in Him!

Sometimes our arguments are just too superficial because that is where we are dwelling at the time.

Somethings we believe and somethings we know. We [know] this; to preach the message of an eternal torture scares men and women enough to move them toward the escape many times, which is thought to be God's provision.

Indeed the living God in Christ Jesus himself is our deliverer from our sin and from ourselves!

If a thing is really in the original inspired Word of God then we should be able to preach it. Proclaiming an eternal torture by fire causes men and women to think in terms of moving toward a deliverer of course. However these repent for all the wrong reasons if and when they do repent. These repent to gain something and that is the critria to serve God for the gain in it. That reveals the God of Baal. The house of Israel had many of these type believers and the Prophet was overwhelmed by it.

[Serve to gain] is what the word Baal means in the Hebrew. So has anything really been altered in the lives of the falsely repented believer? He or she has not been delivered from themselves. Indeed a religious life has evolved.

There is a false repentance and following this there is a false conversion where men and women do many of the right things but for the wrong reasons.

If a false repentance occurs by a certain message then do we not question the truth of the message that brought it about? ponder it.