Sometimes the door of death greatly impresses me as it is so final and so certain, while further we cannot speak to or hear from those who pass through the door. What is on the other side of that door? I believe only fools take it lightly. Many people know they are near the door. Regarding what is on the other side of that door, how much would it help us, if we could speak to those who went through that door? Some people who were dead for a short time, or near death, tell of things they seen, which is a little like speaking to those who have went throught the door. How much do man's beliefs hinge on what man wants to believe, and how much do they hinge on truth and evidence available to the honest seeker? How does the below verse fit into this subject? Any thoughts on the subject?
(Luke 16:30-31) "And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. "
May God help me be honest, merciful, and just while on this side of the door. May God have mercy on us.
While death is certainly something that humans instinctively recoil from and seek to avoid, as well as being final and certain (every human being will physically die eventually and will not come back to life as we experience it here on earth), the Christian faith teaches that physical death is not something to fear and that it (physical death) is only a temporary separation (and that only on the physical, not spiritual level). Charles Wesley puts it quite nicely, I think.
Let saints on earth in concert sing
with those who work is done;
for all the servants of our King
in heaven and earth are one.
One family, we dwell in him,
one Church, above, beneath,
though now divided by the stream,
the narrow stream of death.
One army of the living God,
to his command we bow;
part of the host have crossed the flood,
and part are crossing now.
E'en now to their eternal home
there pass some spirits blest;
while others to the margin come,
waiting their call to rest.
Jesus, be thou our constant Guide;
then, when the word is given,
bid Jordan's narrow stream divide,
and bring us safe to heaven.
The thing we call death is quite likely just removing the outer jacket. It is obviously final for the jacket. My faith lies deeper than the jacket however and yet I say again, this is my belief.
My God is a God of the living and of life itself! My God has not authored death. My belief is that God has not appointed men to die. Sin appointed men to die and then we stand face to face with the truth of ourselves before He who is Truth. What goes around in this life comes back around; why would the pattern change?
The wages of sin is death.
Some men's sins go before them and other men have their sins following after them.
It's life that needs to be taken seriousely and when it comes time to remove the outer jacket things are okay and even fine. This is my belief. Someone may say, who cares what your belief is; I do!
This message has been edited by doug-64 on Jul 6, 2008 6:07 PM
but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
I cannot remember dieing, Or even anything for over a week. However I do know that the nurse on that medivac could not get my heart going and the pilot turned around and asked if they should go back. And as that nurse has told me several times." I told him keep going, They will need to take him to Edmonton for an autopsy anyway." And then my heart started pumping again. So I do realize that God left me on earth here for a purpose. There is no doubt in my mind that I deserved to die. I had it coming,
And no I cannot seem to tally up a list of people that i have led to Christ. However perhaps I can plant a few seeds and maybe God will convict them someother time or someother place.
Why? That is a very good question! After I was exed from Holdeman's I was a drunk, A car thief, A drug dealer! I was convinced I was going to Hell and I was going to have as much pleasure as possible on the way. Why I was never caught for some of these crimes I sometimes still wonder.
>>After I was exed from Holdeman's I was a drunk, A car thief, A drug dealer! I was convinced I was going to Hell and I was going to have as much pleasure as possible on the way.<<
Herman, while those things do sound kind of bad, they don’t seem like the sort of things that would cause a person to deserve death.
Herman, after I was exed from the Holdemans, I didn’t lead a life of crime. Actually, I probably followed the law as close or closer than a lot of Christians. Guess what, though? I ended up believing that there was no evidence that a God existed.
Whad’ya think of that, Herman? Kind of strange, huh?
When I think of death, one verse that most often comes to mind is what Jesus said to Martha, brother of Lazarus. This is a favorite:
John 11:25 "Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
My answer is, yes, I believe.
Herman; bless you for sharing; I had no idea you have stared death in the face. And the beauty of "believing" is that our sins are forgotten by God when they are covered by Jesus Christ. To be "justified" is just as if the sin did not occur. This is a promise of the Bible.
Sirus
It just goes to prove that the devil will "Do whatever it Takes" if he thinks he can bind someone tight enough.
But thank God - He is all power if we only reach out to Him.
I was a serious agnostic through most of my twenties. I was serious about it. I was not just a doubter and a rebel. I had read nearly all the contemporary books at the time that were written to disprove that God existed. I saw much evidence but I did not see proof. I went to a few Holdiman leaders about it; the one was pretty much flabergasted but the other was understanding and tried to be helpful, neither seemed to be particularly alarmed. I received no help at all. It was later that I realized that if I had been doubting their system I would have immediately been in deep stuff but that was not the issue here. My issue seemed to be more trivial in nature than that, I realized later.
That left me in somewhat of a quandry. I was looking for proof on the one side or the other and not merely evidence on the one side or the other.
I was also reading every book I could lay my hands on that was written in favor of the existance of a personal God. Having gathered and consumed ideas from both sides of the equasion the thing was narrowing down to some kind of a bottom line and I had no idea what that might be.
At 28, D-day came and I was on the bottom line, still a Mennonite in quite good standing. There was all this evidence on the left and there was all this evidence on the right with no proof on either side. I was betwixt and between.
When I saw this issue for what it really was I began to see that it was about the attitude of my heart toward the thing more than it was about provable facts. Suddenly I was overwhelmed by this strong impression which was almost audible, the substance of which was this; that's what this is all about! One must simply choose to believe or to disbelieve. The proof is not available! The impression continued and said this; if there was actual proof then the intellectual man would be forced to believe and no one has to believe. Whow! I immediately said; then I choose to believe!
That was not so much an ending of anything but rather a beginning of something. From that day foreward for the next two years the things that were [man-achieved] in my life were stripped away from me. With no intent of my own, my farm went belly up broke because of weather, my marriage that was incredible rocky already completely failed, and my church discarded me as though I was completely meaningless in my pain. No one wants all that to happen. It took years to recover. I was wasted.
Things began to transpire, all of which I will not mention here but the God I finally believed in began to draw me to Himself! I even heard my name spoken audibly in a loud manner. A people that did not judge me in any way but saw my plight and frustrations loved me pure and unconditionally! They told me of a risen Christ and I saw that they really believed in Him as being alive and that they lived it. To me in my church background Jesus was more of a good idea than actually being alive.. I shall never forget this! I was 34 and I am now 64.
All the while my former friends and church folk were handing down more judgments rather than less. It seemed they wanted me out there womanizing with all the trappings of that, rather than forgiven and filled with the living Christ! That was my utter and final disappointment with my heritage. I simply could not understand it.
I did not mean to get that long on this.
This message has been edited by doug-64 on Jul 7, 2008 2:19 PM This message has been edited by doug-64 on Jul 7, 2008 2:17 PM This message has been edited by doug-64 on Jul 7, 2008 2:17 PM
Interesting post, Doug. I can understand the concept of proof not being available on a general level because then no one would have to believe. But how do you find it now? Do you still "choose to believe" or is it something more than that? What I mean is, do you feel the act of believing is rewarded with personal proof?
I appreciate your story. The big difference between you and me is that I really don’t have any desire to go on a life long search looking for proof that there is a God.
Another thing, Doug, I’d call my beliefs more Atheist than Agnostic. To me Agnostics are fence riders. I’m not saying there is anything wrong with being Agnostic, just that if an Agnostic thinks he will ever find irrefutable proof either way on whether a God exists it will more than likely be a futile search.
Doug, I don’t feel like a rebel. I’m a normal, mostly law abiding, easy going citizen. I don’t even hate the idea that a God could exist. I just don’t believe that there is a God. I also am not searching for a God. If tomorrow I were diagnosed with a terminal disease, I don’t believe I would search out a God. I’m okay with this life being all that there is. I think way too many people spend far too much time and effort trying to prepare for some other life after this one. To me, that’s a sad existence. Sure, it might be kind of neat to think that we actually could get to see all of the people we loved in this life again. I just don’t think that’s going to happen.
Doug, I’m at peace. I think that’s what most humans desire. If you’ve found peace with your belief in God, Doug, that’s probably a good thing for you. There are a lot of folks who probably could glean some good from your preaching and maybe even find peace by following your teachings. I just happen to not be one of them.
My choice to believe [once the man-achieved things had fallen by the way side] has overwhelmingly been rewarded with love, joy, and peace in the Holy Ghost! Jesus came to me bringing Life and that more abundantly!
Because he called me I sought for Him and many things have been added to me. The added things are not so important but my relationship with Him and that for it's own sake, means everything to me! I do not live for the reward in the after life for I am a recepient of Eternal Life now! His Kingdom has come to me! I am ready for the after-life because I have found fullness in this life!
Sirius;
Thanks for hearing me out my man. All men should be athiests or at least agnostics until there is a reason to believe and the desire to believe. The religious crowd turns on me in that statement.
Trying to believe is merely rewarded with religion and many good sentiments.
In the sense of the word that most speak of when using the word, religious, I suspect that I do not qualify!
This message has been edited by doug-64 on Jul 7, 2008 6:26 PM
(Heb 2:15) And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
(Ac 17:28) For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.
(Ps 19:1) The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
(Ps 73:11) And they say, How doth God know? and is there knowledge in the most High?
Some thoughts and questions to ponder;
We know man did not create himself. We know that our world as it exists shows much intelligent design on land and sea and air. We know that intelligence does not exist where nothing is or where no presence exists. What is that power and intelligence called that made these things? If evolution were true it must be very powerful and intelligent and I might call evolution God.
When people say they believe in God what are they saying they believe in, and when people say they do not believe in God what are they saying they do not believe in?
Some might say there is no evidence of God, but every thing we see is evidence of Him.
How can anyone claim that no supernatural things happen? I have had many of them happen in my own life and many others have too.
May God help us understand what He is and understand death's door and what might be on the other side. May God help us find the promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come.
Amos, why do you insist on having evidence that a God exists? You have no irrefutable evidence that one does. You can go on searching your whole life trying to find proof that God exists and when it’s all over and you come to your death bed guess what? The only way you will be able to believe it is by using a lot of faith.
Why don’t we turn our Bibles to Hebrews 11:1. Look what it says here, “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”
See, Amos, even the Bible requires that you use faith. Now lets skip on to verse 3.
“Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.”
Faith, Amos. It’s the only way you can believe that a kind and loving God created you and cares about what you think and feel every moment of every day.
In reality this tiny little speck of dust that we inhabit is nothing in the whole vastness of the universe. Lets take wild chance here and imagine that eons ago a powerful being did start the whole thing into motion. Maybe life arose on other planets in other galaxies and maybe it didn’t. Possibly there are civilizations on other planets that are hugely more advanced than we are. Still other planets might just now be evolving life. Who knows? Did some God plan all this out? I choose to say “I doubt it”.
This message has been edited by Sirius65 on Jul 8, 2008 9:06 PM
Regarding atheism, I too am an atheist regarding the God much of our religious world portrays. The large religious world portrays a God that demands even women's faces to be veiled, disallows marriage, disallows music, and disallows almost anything special the true God created to be enjoyed, and further portrays a God that will eternally torment those who enjoy the created blessings as well as eternally torment many without giving them a chance to be saved. Thank God I can be an atheist regarding such a God. I rather believe in a God whose judgments and laws are just and good and who does not want to withhold any good thing from those who walk uprightly and who rather wants to give His children richly all things to enjoy (Psa 84:11, 1 Tim 6:17).
Regarding faith, I don't think it takes a special inspiration of faith to believe an intelligent power much greater and wiser than man was involved in creating the universe, as such is obvious. Yet I believe the inspiration of faith from that intelligent power (that created the first world) can teach us about His future world as well as how He made the first world out of nothing at all. This faith is like a sixth sense that sees into the future world and sees what the natural and physical cannot see. Yet I don't believe it takes that inspiration of faith to realize something intelligent and powerful and greater than man made the world we now live in. May we honestly consider and seek the power and God that created our present world and may He reveal to us His plan and creation of His next world.
(Heb 11:8-10) By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
I am going to take communion tonight at our church and my wife will not be going. She playfully said to me, I know you will have more stars in your crown then mine; as long as I get in heavens door, that matters. So I replied, I'm not sure if I agree with the words of the hymn, "Will there be any stars in my crown" talking here about stars... we will be there for only one reason, and that reason is "a free gift of love" from God.
What about the stars as the song writer puts it ? What is that about ? Listen and read the words at this link. ??
>>If evolution were true it must be very powerful and intelligent and I might call evolution God.<<
Amos, I noticed this sentence in your 8:07 post from yesterday and would like to say that you might actually be on to something. Think about this for a minute. What is your biggest hang up on the universe evolving from nothing. Did it evolve from nothing? Maybe it did, maybe it didn’t.
Amos, I think my belief is honest in the fact that I don’t claim the universe evolved from nothing.
Do you, Amos, believe that something can come from nothing? I think you do. Ask yourself this question, “Where did God come from, or what made God?”
That’s an honest question, Right? The only answer I can seem to get from a God believer is that God has always existed.
Amos, if you can believe that God has always existed, how is that different from me believing that the universe, along with all the building blocks for life, has always existed?
If you are honest with yourself, your and my beliefs are a lot alike.
So, Amos, is that your answer? God has always existed?
I don’t have an answer even though I’d love to.
This message has been edited by Sirius65 on Jul 9, 2008 6:52 PM
Sirus, I don't have the answer to all of your questions. We really cannot comprehend endless space or time. Yet I believe the power or God that made our world has always existed, likely because that is what the Bible says. Yet it does seem more reasonable to believe that, then to believe such a power and intelligence that could create our complex and massive world all at once evolved from nothing.
Thinking about the time when you lived across the hill and when your brother and I would swim in our creek and had lots of good times together. How is your dad and moms heath?
Kevin I think your position [is] the same as that of Amos at the level you're speaking. Do you guys agree on the issue that this God interacts and gets personally involved in the lives of human beings?
There is another question and it's an honest one; does this force we call God or the controlling thing of creation get involved before faith comes into our lives, or only after faith comes? If it's only an idea of men that this force gets involved personally, then men have jump-started it?
But on the other hand if it's actually real then who once again jump-starts this thing?
I have another question but I'll not ask it unless these vacuums are filled.
This message has been edited by doug-64 on Jul 11, 2008 8:08 AM
A few weeks ago a first cousin to both of my son's wives was killed in a motorcycle accident in Texas. At the time he was living kind of a wild life, and excommunicated from the Holdemans. I don't know if all the following is exactly true, but this is what I heard. I heard he had come home from a rodeo that night and was again heading away from home about 2 oclock AM, and was not found for a while after the accident. Further at this time His wife was staying in Mississippi and sending her boys to Bible School there. I also heard his wife, who likely believed in eternal torment, was very much hoping he had some time to change after the accident and before his death. Yet a cousin to the one killed while cleaning up some of the mess, in seeing his helmet and the mess in it after his head had hit a fence post, thought dreaming about time for change was foolish. I even heard he told such to his wife, yet I can hardly believe that.
Yes all this is very sad, but what then seemed more sad to me is how most of our whole religious world is obviously wrong as it is greatly disagreed, and those who directly disagree with one another cannot both be right. As religious people see how religious people are so greatly disagreed and divided it would seem they all would be a little bit scared they might be wrong too, and thus be very careful before they claim all the others are wrong and they only are right. It would appear all should be very carefully and open hearted researching things to learn what is really truth and who if any are right. But where are those people? Yes most are dying just as they were born and taught, and seemingly without open heartedly, carefully, and prayerfully seeking for truth. Yes many religious people are trusting in lies and are even caught up in doctrines which relate to the anti christ and doctrines of devils and dying daily as such. Many are riding the motorcycle of religious lies and errors right through death's door.
May we believe in Jesus, and not only as one who died for our sins but also as a true teachers who taught important things about being saved and being accepted of His Father. He said those who love their family more than Him are not worthy of Him. Yes may He be our Savior. Thank God He does have some tolerance for errors especially if sincere. May God have mercy on us.
This message has been edited by AmosB1 on Jul 13, 2008 6:57 PM This message has been edited by AmosB1 on Jul 13, 2008 6:54 PM
I just read this whole thread tonight and found a few interesting thoughts. Doug, I enjoyed your heart-felt story about your life, and how believing came down to a choice for you. That is something I once decided also, that I would choose to believe and the grounding faith would come by practice. It didn’t work. Something in my brain kept screaming out that it wasn’t true. I wasn’t living a wild life or anything, and didn’t have to give anything up to just believe. (I’m speaking of a time 15 yrs after the Holdemans) You just can’t “trick” your brain into believing something. I found that out.
Like you, I searched both sides of the debate, really wanting to know what the truth was. I also concluded that you can’t prove it one way or the other. But I can start to assign some probabilities to it. Once I discovered they leaned way over toward towards the Bible being myth, the absurdity of a God who would hold me accountable to what appeared to be myth, sank in.
If there is some sort of spiritual communication with the creator of the universe, that would be pretty awesome to be involved! If it ever happens I will welcome it as a highlight of my life. But it hasn’t happened for over 50 years, so I’m not holding my breath.
I feel exactly like Kevin/Sirius. We are humans, so let’s do what humans are born to do; take in life and live it like there is nothing else! Our quest should be to make to most of our LIVES, not our death. If there is an afterlife, and it is fair, then everything will shake itself out and I will have nothing to worry about. If there is an afterlife and it is not fair, then I can’t deal with that anyway and no matter what I do I will likely be deceived. But if there is not an afterlife, then what a shame it would be to not live life to the fullest!
No afterlife does not bother me. I was non-existent for billions of years before 1954, and I don’t remember that being any hardship at all!
I very much agree you cannot trick your mind into believing something that it does not naturally believe. Yet I believe our minds can naturally know and believe that a power and intelligence greater than man created our complex world involving every thing on it and surrounding it. I call that power God, even if it would have involved evolution as some claim. Further it is easier to believe that this power always existed, than to believe such a great intelligence and power suddenly derived from nothing at all. Further it also is quite natural to believe that such an intelligence and power would not suddenly die or cease to exist. Further it also is quite reasonable to believe that the intelligence and power that made our complex world of creatures pertaining to air, land, and water, and the very heart that beats in us, would also be aware of and watching what He made.
You wrote above that "If there is some sort of spiritual communication with the creator of the universe, that would be pretty awesome to be involved!" and wrote, "If it ever happens I will welcome it as a highlight of my life." Yet were not expecting it. I don't know how serious you were in writing that, but I therewith would think it very reasonable to try to communicate with that intelligence and power much greater than man which made man, which power is quite reasonable to think would not suddenly disappear, and rather would be interested in and care about what He made. I know of a certainty that super natural things happened in my life which I believe came from this power, while many others tell of super natural things happening in their lives. I believe it to be a fool who claims nothing supernatural happens in this world. Yet for some reason many seemingly never get in contact with this power till they get to deaths door, and many never do get in contact with it.
Yet concerning this power, may our knowledge of Him not merely bring about fear of death's door and bondage, but may we know Him as a good power and know Him as the following verse portrays.
(Heb 2:15) "And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage."
I believe there is not only just punishment for the prejudiced and biased (which can include both the religious and non religious), but there is mercy and great reward for those honestly seek, love, believe and obey the intelligence and power that made us.
May we seek the power that made us and may He reveal His future plan to us.
Amos, you say, “I believe our minds can naturally know and believe that a power and intelligence greater than man created our complex world involving every thing on it and surrounding it”. The majority of people throughout the years have agreed with this statement, and it does sound like a reasonable belief. But if something seems natural, does that make it true? Einstein’s relativity certainly does not seem natural, but it has been proven to be true many times over. What I’m getting at is that our “natural” intuition is not always as trustworthy as we assume it to be.
If you study all the evolutionary sciences, you will discover the evidence for a slowly evolving life system based on random variation and natural selection is overwhelming. That doesn’t necessarily mean that some creator is not in the picture, but it sure rules out the inerrancy of biblical scripture. It also places the role of a possible creator further and further away from us. Mankind always has a tendency to place God at the margins of scientific knowledge. Before Newton, we assumed God controlled planetary motion, and Newton was only one in a long domino effect of removing God from the gaps of understanding.
You also say, “Further it also is quite reasonable to believe that the intelligence and power that made our complex world of creatures pertaining to air, land, and water, and the very heart that beats in us, would also be aware of and watching what He made.”
If there is an intelligence involved in our creation, It could very well be that it is so much greater than our intelligence that we are hardly on its radar screen. It would be very comforting if he is aware and watching what he made, but once again, I don’t see the evidence there is any interaction from him if this is the case. Some claim they do, but the evidence can never be shown in a credible way to the remainder of us. If he is watching, I certainly have nothing to fear at deaths door. Should a lion repent for living according to the natural instincts of a lion? Neither should a human repent for doing the same.
You also say, “I believe it to be a fool who claims nothing supernatural happens in this world.” I have lived over half a century and have never seen any credible evidence of the supernatural and certainly never experienced anything first hand. Am I also a fool for not believing in UFO’s or flying unicorns? Without any evidence, how can I have the perception to know which parts of that huge pool of supernatural claims to accept?
I have read this thread with great interest and am once again thankful for Amos' honesty and sincerity. You may recall that QWERTY took me to task as an SDA because I believe in "soul sleep." I will start a new thread to deal with that since the subject has come up. I have been holding off, not wanting to start something that no one wanted to discuss anyway...
But here I want to add a couple of comments concerning an Intelligence in the universe. I teach radiation physics among other things, and have some understanding of scientific processes.
First of all NOTHING becomes more complex on its own. Period. As matter is left to itself, it disintegrates into simpler and simpler particles until it's back to the basic building blocks. Any scientist will admit this in his/her honest moments.
The above statement precludes macro-evolution. For some one-celled creature to progressively become more complex until it is the amazing organism we call humans is scientifically impossible. Period.
This leaves only one inescapable conclusion - there IS an intelligent Designer. For me, that's the God of the Bible. For you, you were created with a choice, so you can choose to call it whatever you wish, but you cannot honestly decide that matter, left to itself, became more complex.
I will give you a scientific example. As radioactive rocks emit particulate radiation, they change form because particulate radiation involves emitting nuclear particles. If the number of protons change in a nucleus, the element changes with it. Therefore, uranium becomes radium which eventually decays further and is basically lead at some point. It is one of incalculable examples of matter becoming more basic as it "decays."
Watch a deer hit by the side of the road. Minutes after it dies, it begins to decay and become food for simpler life forms. In a matter of weeks (depending on climate etc.) it has "returned to dust." This is the course of nature without a Creator.
I will hasten to add that the Creator built into nature the ability to micro-evolve with the changing environment he/she is in. There is no chain of evidence that man is linked to anything else. Some of the bones scientists like to parade as "prehistoric" are very likely humans with birth defects. I have x-rayed very current humans with a lot of the features in those old bones.
I would like to deal with carbon dating too, but this is getting too long...
I in driving past a cemetary this morning was made to think about how all those stones mark those who have passed through deaths door. May God have mercy on us.
You bring up the point I have heard from the creationist many times, about evolution violating the second law of thermodynamics. This argument has been debunked multiple times over, and you can probably find plenty of reasons why by doing a search. But I’m going to take a stab at debunking it myself.
The statement you make about all things decaying and becoming more disorderly is true for material objects or living things. But it does not apply to information. When a new organism is born, it receives information from it’s parent in the form of DNA. These are instructions on how to construct itself as it grows. It grows and comes to full maturity and starts to decay, but before doing so passes on genetic information to another generation.
The information passed on is not an exact copy of the parents. There are random variations and mutations that cause the offspring to have slightly different features. Some of these features are beneficial to survival, and some are not. Those features that are beneficial to survival are rewarded by passing their improved genetic information on to a new generation.
The process I just described does not in the least violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics.
If your proposal was true, we should expect the human race to be going downhill since Adam (assuming you believe in Adam). But we instead find that athletes continue to break records, and intelligence and the ability to discover is increasing instead of going backwards. If you look at the early human fossils, or pre-human fossils of Neanderthal or the Hobbits, you will see a smaller frame with a smaller brain. I think it is an undeniable fact that humans are not deteriorating from generation to generation.
I would be interested to hear your take on carbon dating sometime. I know many creationists like to throw doubt into that science, and bring up incidents where the carbon dating got it wrong. But it seems to me they deny the vast amount of confirmable data on the methods. Many objects have multiple ways of determining age, and the dating methods have proved to be quite reliable. For carbon dating, I know techniques are used to calibrate using objects of known age.
You are involved with the science of radiation, but are you familiar with it on a technical level (knowing how to use the machines) or a scientific level (understanding it on the atomic level)? I took a year of chemistry in college, but don't pretend to understand it enough to defend or debunk it.
Maybe you are right and the whole dating method thing is a scam. But if it is a scam, it seems to me one of two things must be true.
1. 90% of the worlds scientists are perpetuating a known scam, aimed at enforcing naturalistic beliefs on the public (even though they have secret evidence against naturalism). These people have little or no integrity.
2. Although they are very competent when it comes to all sciences which do not disagree with the Bible, (computers, space program, DNA, Medicine, GPS, …) 90% of the worlds scientists just happen to be totally incompetent in only the areas which do not agree with the Bible (age of earth, universe, evolution..).
Which is it? Or can you think of a third possibility?
I will just have to applaud you as being a man of more faith than I have. To believe that dna code continues to become more complex starting with a one-celled organism and ending in a complex organism like man, versus an almighty God saying "let there be..." ands it was done, takes incaculable faith.
Carbon dating is based on the fact that radioactive material decays at a known rate. Carbon 14 has a half-life of 5,780 years. This means as long as something is living and respiration is taking place, the carbon 14 activity is the same in that organism as it is in the atmosphere. However, when something dies and respiration stops, the carbon 14 trapped in that substance begins to decay. To keep it simple, if you found something that had been dead for 5,780 years, it would have half of the activity (measured with a radiation detector)than is in the atmosphere today. The problem is, the flood was probably about that long ago, and there is no way to know how much carbon 14 was in the atmosphere prior to the flood. It is possible there was little or none prior to the flood based on the drastic changes that took place at that time. Now say you find an organism that was alive at the time of the flood and it was killed in the deluge, you might do a carbon 14 dating and get a reading of millions of years old simply because there was little or no carbon 14 in the pre-flood atmosphere.
Just for the sake of interest, the radioactive material used for medical tests is technetium 99 which has a half life of only 6 hours. You wouldn't want sdomething injected into you that had a long half life because you would be radioactive for a long time...
As far as man becoming smarter, stronger, etc. We are told we use only 10% of our brain capacity. Let's say Adam (yes I belive in him)was able to utilize all 100% - he would be dramatically more intelligent than we are today. The Bible says that in the last times "knowlefddge will be increased," and you know that most of the physical records being broken today are the result of doping.
Actually, a better proof that God exists is what He can to in the heart of a man. Look at how quickly men became animals down in New Orleans after Katrina to see what man would be like apart from God. I would imagine you know someone who was a terrible person changing and becoming Christ-like. This is the ultimate evolution! There is nothing in the god-less or evolutionary theory for a heart being changed. That is supernatural.
I will say this, Stan, you are a man of great faith.
Regarding how biased and closed minded some people are who oppose the creation story, it was interesting and sad how quickly the following question got accused at "yahoo questions and answers" as being against their rules and thus deleted. Yet possibly some or many who do not believe the creation story would not be as unfair as this. On yahoo questions and answers I simply stated if man slowly and actually derived from monkeys it would appear there would still be some creatures around that are in the process of changing and which creatures would be about one half monkey and one half man, which creatures could be called monkmen. Then was given the question where are the monkmen? The question only lasted about 15 minutes and then was deleted by someone as being a question against yahoos rules. Why? I was very grieved at the time.
Yet if these people think they must believe in a God as false religion has portrayed Him no wonder they try to convince themselves such a creature does not exist. It is quite possible that those men who injected today's popular anti God and creation theories into our society, thought they must believe in such a God or none at all. Yet there is another option. May God have mercy on us.
This message has been edited by AmosB1 on Jul 27, 2008 7:05 AM This message has been edited by AmosB1 on Jul 26, 2008 7:35 PM
Galen, I would like to hear your choice from my earlier post, 1 or 2.
Your explanation about the flood distorting the Carbon 14 record sounds a little ad hoc to me. (Ad hoc, the addition of extraneous hypothesess to a theory in order to save it from being falsified. [Wickapedia]). You are overlooking the fact that there is really no good scientific evidence for a world wide Biblical flood to begin with. I am not familiar with the science that would predict (based on evidence, not ad hoc) that levels of Carbon 14 would suddenly increase significantly after a flood. We should be able to test that theory by submerging objects in water for 40 days plus the time the water subsided, and see what happens.
Galen, I don’t have a lot of faith in things not seen, but I do have faith in things for which there is sound evidence. I have looked at both sides of the evolution debate and I see way more evidence for evolution than against it. If you are not aware of what I am talking about, then you should look into it. But don’t go to the Discovery Institute or Answers in Genesis to find out about the evidence for evolution, go directly to the source instead. There is plenty of info on the web. I have a book by Michael Shermer called “Why Darwin Matters” which is very good. Dr. Zach has a series of poscasts available on itunes which is also a very good introduction.
No, I don’t accept things on faith alone. I accept things on evidence. But I realize accepting the evidence requires a bit of faith, since it’s not practical for me to experience the evidence first hand. That is another discussion though.
No, I have never known someone who was a terrible person changing and becoming Christ-like. I have known of people who became overwhelmed by choices in life, and turned to religion for some stability and reconciliation with family. They were not terrible people before the switch, and I believe they lost some of their humanity in the switch. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, just that I have never witnessed someone truly terrible becoming Christ like (whatever that may be). Christ was quite a tolerant, progressive, and revolutionary figure, who violated much of the socially accepted behavior of his time.
>>On yahoo questions and answers I simply stated if man slowly and actually derived from monkeys it would appear there would still be some creatures around that are in the process of changing and which creatures would be about one half monkey and one half man, which creatures could be called monkmen.<<
Come on, Amos, look in the mirror!
Consider this one little tidbit for a moment. Have you ever noticed when you get cold that you get goose bumps on your body right where there is a hair follicle? Theory has it, Amos, that back when our bodies were covered with hair, this process actually served a useful purpose so that when our bodies sensed we were getting cold, goose bumps caused our hair to stand up thereby creating a layer of insulation close to our skin.
I admit this is a theory, Amos, and I don’t claim it as fact, but I do ask you, does this not make sense?
Also, consider wisdom teeth. As a young man, mine were removed because there wasn’t enough room in my mouth for them and I understand that this is a common problem for others as well. Do you really think God would have created us with unnecessary teeth or is it possible that millions of years ago they really did serve some useful purpose?
I’m not claiming this as fact, either. Just another thing to consider.
Amos, I don’t hate the idea that there could be a God, I just doubt there is a God.
Concerning goose bumps making hairs stand up to insulate our bodies, that could be why God made them, and especially for those with thin hair. But monkeys are hairy enough I don't think they really need goose bumps to make their hairs to stand on end to insulate them. Concerning our teeth I don't know why our wisdom teeth come in so late. Even they, if they develop properly can be used for normal eating. Yet I don't want to ague about such. I know that animals and plants and even people seem to change to some extent to adapt to their environment. Things seem to develop immunity to things etc. Amazing.
One might also ask, when did animals start killing each other and get big teeth? Regarding our present world, I personally think a lot of things changed when God cursed the earth after mankind sinned. Not only did thistles come into being, but likely big teeth on meat eating animals, ugly spiders, etc. Are our wisdom teeth a part of the curse? When I see the good things our Creator made, such as flowers, good tasting foods, and many other good things, and then also see the evil things He made such as pain, thorns, evil looking spiders, and death, I marvel and have the right to want His mercies and to be on the good side of such an intellegence and power.
Regardless how some things might change to adapt to their environment, and regardless of our questions about our complex world, it is simply obvious that an intelligence and power much greater than man designed and somehow made it, and regarding this intelligence and power it also is very reasonable to believe it always existed rather than suddenly deriving from nothing, and further to believe this force would not suddenly become extinct, but rather would continue to exist and would be interested in and watching what He made. This intelligence and power I call God, and which intelligence and power I believe does supernatural things among humanity and which I have witnessed some of. Obviously an intelligence and power that can make a body that can heal itself as ours do when hurt, could have made a body that would get healthier every year, or resurrect that body into a better one if He so desires. May this God have mercy us.
Kevin, I don't mean to put you on the spot, but I sometimes wonder what you or others really mean when they say they don't or hardly believe in a God. What exactly is it they doubt exists, or why do they doubt He exists? Has there never been a much greator intellegence and power in our universe than man? Or is that not God? Did He never exist? Did He cease to exist? Does He not care about what He created? What are the details.
I for some time was thinking about posting on this but did not get around to it.
Someone in an above post wrote,
>>If there is an intelligence involved in our creation, It could very well be that it is so much greater than our intelligence that we are hardly on its radar screen.<<
Using the term radar screen is a very interesting way of portraying God's knowledge and view of His creation. Yet I believe our creator is so great that even the smallest things appear on His radar screen, even if He often allows nature to take it's course. But further, He likely changes the course of nature much more often than we realize, as He at times particularly protects people from harm. I just now am reminded how my dad one time left the house to go to the other farm and something told him to go back, but he did not want to, but it kept saying go back so he did and found a chimney fire in process and I believe had to call the fire trucks, but they saved the house with little damage.
Following are some verses about what appears on His radar screen,
(Matt 10:29-30) Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. 30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
He sees the posts on this forum, and knows if they are kind or bitter. He see everything on His radar screen. May we seek, know and respect this GREAT God and may He have mercy on us.
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How is your dad and moms heath? 
