If you can bear with me in my journey to finding peace in my life,I have some questions I want to put out here and I am seeking serious answers. I really wish more of the lurkers would speak up,especially if you are still a Holdeman and have found solid answers on these things that I can't seem to get from any members. How do they expect people to stay in when so often the answers are vague; we are encouraged to "just believe",or "just do it to be on the safe side". I'm not looking for church answers or Bible Doctrine and Practice answers either..please. There are a lot of members who are completely content to stay in the comfort zone and do no questioning so they are happy doing what they have always done. They might not have a conviction on what they do but don't want to research it because it's not comfortable. Those of us that question often get labeled as deceived or wanting to ride the fence,when a lot of times we simply want some solid answers for the beliefs of the church BASED ON THE BIBLE. Unless we are leaving the church because we want to do whatever and don't care about God or being lost or saved,it is a very difficult process and the criticism and disrespect that comes from others looking on and thinking we need to just shape up and get in line is often not merited. Does anyone think it's actually easy to leave something you have always lived in;it's a way of life and changing thinking is agonizing? The self doubts and anxiety we go through is something we would never,ever choose. It's so very difficult when you have been taught from the cradle that this way is the only way to be saved and then when you feel a leading away from it to know how to discern since we have always heard that if it takes you away from the church it is the voice of the devil and he comes as an angel of light.
One thing I find interesting is that our church pretty much consists of families that have continued on for generations with the children being baptized and on and on. We don't have much at all join from the outside and if they do they get very overwhelmed by our culture and traditions and this seems to me like something God would not be happy with. It's true that we have natives from other countries join in the mission areas but there the church tries to blend with their culture which causes fewer problems. In the U S here we insist that others follow our culture which is hard for them to understand because it is intricate in so many areas and yet we would say they aren't rules but our life style would testify otherwise. If we are truly the people of God,shouldn't it be easier to worship together in spirit and truth and not have so many conformities? There's tolerance for a while but after that they better have on the black shoes and have roast and potatoes for Sunday dinner. I wonder if God would call us Pharisees and a religion he despises? We always say we believe God looks at the heart so why so much emphasis on the outward? I don't believe that anything goes on the outside either but I think if our hearts are turned to God we aren't going to think it's ok to dress to make others notice/be tempted;at least,not to make a conscious decision that this is how I'm dressing today.
I do think that through the years we have gradually picked up more and more legalities and I'm not so sure even the much revered J Holdeman would approve.
One of my questions is the church's belief on the covering. I was just reading in Corinthians and there is one verse that says that long hair is a glory to a woman and her hair is given to her for a covering. Now,how do you explain that one away? Some of the answers I have heard: "It's a glory for only her husband." Earlier in the chapter it talks about women having power on her head and that is sometimes interpreted as a covering. Why isn't the Bible more plain on an actual covering if that's what God really means? I have been told that since brethren in our early beginnings got together and felt this was the spirit's leading that I should just accept it that God was directing. Considering the many other churches that consider themselves OTC and they also have what they feel like would be correct decisions,how do we know we are right? Why would God want us to have long hair so we can wrap it up in a tight wad on the back of our head and cover it up? What about the woman who never marries? If it's a glory for the husbands where does that leave her? And the increasing pressure being applied about needing to grow hair longer so the covering is bigger,etc.,starts making it sound like the Pharisees enlarging the border of their garments. The one I have the most question on is the other covering for church? That one makes no sense at all. All I hear is that it's a sign of reverence for God's church. Why just the women with extra stuff on? The men dress up and that's it but so do we and we already have one covering;why another? Is there authority figures trying to make sure women stay trussed up and subdued to keep them in their place under the man or where did this come from?
No musical instruments. This one has no base except thinking we can get too involved or proud of our talents. So instead we have many other areas we get too caught up in and proud of but since there is no known thing against it,it's ok unless you are keen to the spirit. The conference book encourages dark hose for church so most wear black. If you wear dark but not black then you are asked why you do it since you must have some carnal reason for standing out and being different. Too light of shoes for social gatherings are frowned on. Who cares about shoes if there is no motive behind it but then I hear if there's no motive,why not just fit in? If the youth girls go bare foot to play volleyball some of the older mothers think it's immodest and they need to keep their feet covered,preferably with shoes,not sandals. Sandals might be sexy. Makes me wonder if in fifty years the women will be wearing elbow length gloves because hands can be attractive. But the men? Wear preeeetty much what most guys do. Double standard? And why? We sometimes hear that since Eve picked the apple that women are cursed and under the man. I know that God made man first and made women to be their partners and I have no problem with that but when God told Eve she would travail in childbirth because of her sin,he didn't also say she would wear two coverings and hose every time she worshipped in his house.
I can't find a scripture base for being expelled for not believing there is just one true church. So where did that one come from? Is there a biblical base or is it a church decision?
Thanks for listening.
This message has been edited by foamhead on Jul 6, 2008 2:28 PM This message has been edited by foamhead on Jul 6, 2008 2:21 PM
And I personally would not recommend the Holdeman Church to anyone because of some of the false doctrine they promote (IMHO).
But then again I would not recommend any specific church to anyone for the very same reason.
Are you ready to jump off the ship?
Have you considered your options?
What have some X Holdeman members ended up settling for?
No longer believe in God or are not sure there is one. Thumbs up approval to war. Denying the deity of Christ. Easy believism. Belief in the false unorthodox doctrine of "once saved always saved" no matter what you do or how you live your life. Falling down/rolling around on the floor laughing and calling it the "Holy Spirit." Legalistic thinking that one must observe the 7th day Sabbath. Universal salvation. And the list goes on and on.
Yes, a whole world of churches to choose from anxiously awaits your arrival.....complete with entertainment, dancing, laughing, show-boating, comedy, theatrics, false doctrine, etc.
My belief is that ALL of the churches today have gone astray from the faith of the OTVC that the apostles established.
So, I guess it comes down to what you personally can put up with.
Those churches today which teach that it is ok for a christian to bear arms, go to war, and fight for what their country thinks is right have clearly departed from a very basic Orthodox truth, and should be avoided (IMHO).
Our backgrounds contribute to asking the right questions or our backgrounds contribute to asking the wrong questions.
Until we can ask the right and proper questions we shall never get the right and proper answers so far as these things are concerned.
You have all of my sympathies and a good bit of my empathy. But you are asking many of the wrong questions, among some of the right and proper questions. This is not about questions or answers really.
What I suggest to you is that you get awfully serious with the Lord Jesus Christ in person. If He is real then He will reveal Himself to you. You will then be led into the Truth of Himself!
If John H. had the adacity to get serious with things beyond the box, pray tell then why should he and his not encourage you and yours to look beyond the box. If we take our freedom, we must give others their freedom or we are altogether dishonest. A man or a people that are not [just] and [internally honest], have no real meaning to others so far as the gospel is concerned.
I am not saying that John H., a fairly close relative of mine got awfully serious with the Person of the Lord Jesus, but I am saying that he took the liberty to look beyond the box and therefore it is imperitive that he and his give you the freedom to do likewise. It is not likely that these people will do this but it's imperitive that they do.
[Remember the law of truth will always call the Spirit of Grace a deception, it always has!] To be called a person of deception is very hurtful especially so is this true if one is sincerely seeking God.. Always expect this from those of the letter of truth. The pharisees were of the letter and these called both Jesus and Paul deceivers and for these same reasons.
The rest is water under the bridge so far as being important. It's about priorities. There is a pursuit of happiness and there is a pursuit of God; seek God himself with an open face, rather than the answers. Forget the answers right now and forget the many questions as well! That realm is far too large to graple with. Don't listen to those who pressure you with good, better, or best doctrines. Those things restore no one! Those ideas are meaningless to where I think you are at the moment!
This message has been edited by doug-64 on Jul 6, 2008 5:39 PM This message has been edited by doug-64 on Jul 6, 2008 5:20 PM
Cupcake,
>If we are truly the people of God,shouldn't it be easier to worship together in spirit and truth and not have so many conformities?<
Another version of Romans 12;2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye conformed to 'our way'if you want to be acceptable and proven to be in the will of the H church.
Reading your post, I found it interesting to reflect on how much of Holdemanism is based on clothing, culture, and external things. I'm not saying that these things are intrinsically bad - or good. But, when the focus of the church and its members is primarily on these matters, Jesus Christ very quickly gets ignored. As I mentioned the other day on the 'Works' thread, if these things become prescribed and seen as a means to salvation, then I would begin to question whether the group or individual even knows what salvation is.
All of the rules (many of them unwritten) that are in effect in the H church (e.g. is there any written rule that says 'sisters' must wear long-sleeve dresses to church - or is it just an unwritten rule and woe betide the sister who would dare to show up in short sleeves?) are so remarkably similar to the rules of Pharisaism and have nothing to do with the two Great Commandments - Love God and love each other.
Cupcake... on the headcovering issue... a thought on the having authority on her head..
the verse says..
1Cr 11:10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on [her] head because of the angels.
I have thought on this verse quite a bit...
According to Youngs Analytical Greek & Hebrwe Concordance..
Power = Privilege, Authority
For this cause ought the woman to have privilege, authority on (head) head because of the angels.
This may be an odd thought.. but sounds to me like Paul is saying that women have the privilege/authority to decide what they will or won't wear on their heads.
Cupcake
I very much would like to encourage you to Search the Scriptures and Pray. Throwing the covering away or tying it tighter is not going to save you. I have to think about Jacob wrestling with the angle. I am sure if you know that you want to be right with God and you pray in earnest I am sure he will answer you. For some it looks to me that they have an easier time finding peace with God but perhaps some of us strayed further than others. I know that the Good Shepherd want nothing but the best for his sheep. And nowhere do I see that he divided the colours like Jacob did when he was herding for Laban.
Since it's been noticed that I like to talk, let me say this:
Any passionate Muslim or any passionate Satanist is the one who furthers the cause of those respective religions.
Being passionate about the Person of the Lord Jesus is who I am; all I share reveals this. I am passionate about spreading the good news of the Person of the risen Christ! I am not passionate about the christian religion. My faith is not in the christian religion. I could never get excited about the christian religion.
If it were known that I was an absolute and serious agnostic for years and years, and were it known just who it was who rescued me from incredible darkness and who it now is that mightily works in me, elevating my life for twenty nine years now, there would be no surprise why I talk so much! I would like to talk more!
I am completely passionate if that's possible about the living and risen Lord Jesus! I will forever further the gospel of Christ Jesus! Other than living this out day by day it also requires the speaking of words, for which I am available.
I make no apology for my absolute Love for Christ! He has forgiven me of so much! Out of the abundance of my heart I continue to speak of Him! Was I born into that type of zeal and passion, no. The risen Christ has revealed Himself to me and that's why I am passionate!
I feel passionate about Christ also not because I have been here or there or that I have known one theology from another, but because I have searched for the saviour.
>Have you considered your options?< Yes. Good thoughts,Jerry.
>But you are asking many of the wrong questions, among some of the right and proper questions. This is not about questions or answers really.<
In a way it isn't but in a way it is because if you feel like something you have believed is wrong,then you need to understand why so you can move on from there.
>What I suggest to you is that you get awfully serious with the Lord Jesus Christ in person. If He is real then He will reveal Himself to you. You will then be led into the Truth of Himself!<
Any wise answers to my question: If I have been awfully serious and feel like God has revealed himself in ways he never has before,then what do I do with still feeling the need to completely settle these questions so I make a decision that I don't regret?
>I'm not saying that these things are intrinsically bad - or good. But, when the focus of the church and its members is primarily on these matters, Jesus Christ very quickly gets ignored.<
This is true,Steven,and the church knows this is a problem. With things being so emphasized this is a result because it is too easy to fit in just by "looking right". If things weren't so noticed I think lack of spiritual life would be more obvious.
Good answers,all,and interesting things to think about! Btw,I wasn't trying to emphasize the whole covering thing because it's no more important than a lot of other things. It is just one of many things that doesn't seem very clear and it is an obvious thing that we women have that sets us apart and when we stop wearing them we are considered to have thrown a vital part of our salvation away.
>>I wasn't trying to emphasize the whole covering thing because it's no more important than a lot of other things. It is just one of many things that doesn't seem very clear and it is an obvious thing that we women have that sets us apart and when we stop wearing them we are considered to have thrown a vital part of our salvation away.<<
So WHAT are you saying that a "head covering" is part of our Salvation!???
Wow, I have never worn a head covering and I am saved.
You need to stop being so two faced cupcake,, if you want to wear a head covering and consider that as part of your salvation you need to take that to the Lord and stop worrying about what everyone else thinks. That is what is considered facing the Lord head on.
If your not sure,,, you need to ask God and stop looking for opinions.
♪*•.¸¸¸♥¸¸¸.•*♪
This message has been edited by pariskat... on Jul 6, 2008 10:19 PM
Paris, Paris; you do not understand the culture. What Cupcake is saying is that coverings are so in the system and conscience, that to go against such, it becomes sin; and if one sins, then one is separated from God. Its not that they think the covering is part of salvation... maybe somewhat circular but such is the thinking.
Cupcake; you obviously feel have some decisions to make, and you should not be in a hurry. I have no doubt that you trust in Christ, so these issues are really just side issues. One thing you can be sure of, and scripture backs you up; that is that no one can pluck you out of Jesus arms. You trust in Him, and all will be well. Regardless, of what others around you say.
<You need to stop being so two faced cupcake>
Paris I don't want to be critical here but until you have spent some time in cupcake's shoes, those kind of comments come across as totally lacking consideration.
You have no idea of the freedom you have grown up in to think for yourself and not cross examine yourself and everything you do or be cross examined for your every thought. I realise some of us come across as pretty simple minded or something to you, but you need to understand that what cupcake is facing is very serious to her and affects her whole life, soul, life style and family. the questions she is asking are a threat to her whole sense of who she is now and forever and need to be taken that way. It is no easy simplistic thing to leave your whole world behind and find a new one where your relatives shun you for life and no matter what God does in your life, it is not ever good enough because you are no longer a Holdeman Mennonite in good standing.
It changes your whole identity as a person, as a woman and how others including those in the world around you relate to you. Some changes are easier to make than others, but some have the affect of moving to a foreign country without ever leaving home.
>>So WHAT are you saying that a "head covering" is part of our Salvation!???
Wow, I have never worn a head covering and I am saved.<<
Paris, you almost sound a little worried, there. You know what? If you continue to allow yourself to be exposed to these Holdeman "truths" you’ll lose your innocence and be required to wear the "head covering" in order to make it to heaven.
This message has been edited by Sirius65 on Jul 6, 2008 10:38 PM
Paris that is much easier to do when you have not been trained from birth to question every opinion you have and pass it thru the screen of the staff to decide if Jesus would actually talk to you or not.
Paris, Hank is right. Also Paris, I don't think it is a matter of being two-faced, sometimes there are issues that need to be worked through and other people's opinions may be a part of that process.
>>Paris that is much easier to do when you have not been trained from birth to question every opinion you have and pass it thru the screen of the staff to decide if Jesus would actually talk to you or not.<<
So LL why do you give more reasons to hold on to head covering as a Salvation issue?
Your words give more value to hanging on to it then letting it go. What would you like to say to cupcake that would allow her to see what bondage she is in, instead of reprimanding me for seeing the truth.
Regional thing ??; reminded me of one theologian who wrote that the Bible should never be interpreted to take a regional custom and make it a universal norm. Principles taught in the Bible never change, but the practical application may differ from place to place. Take modesty for instance, in practice it likely is totally different from a equatorial country to the North Pole.
Paris I am not trying to reprimand you for seeing the truth, I am merely asking you to try and understand where she is coming from. I have been X for 12 yrs and still do not have a clear stand on whether or not I should wear a head covering except that I only wear on one type now if I do, a veil style. I still wear it for church,and if I spend the day with the whole H family. or go to a predominately mennonite(no matter what kind) gathering. I don't feel condemned for not wearing it around the house, nor do I feel condemned for wearing it to church. I am quite well aware that it is not part of my salvation, but to my 7 children it is still very important. I also have simply not taken the time to study it all out and find my own conviction on it, I have been too busy sorting out various other mind boggling traditions.
I realise that you see your opinion as the freeing truth but not every one sees it the same way you do. Sorry/
I guess that's up to her. I'm not trying to influence her one way or another all I know is the more I ask for opinions the more it interferes with what the Lord wants me to do, in my walk.
Cupcake if you you want to wear your head covering proud then do it. If you want to worry about it then seek God.
K the church we are currently attending still wears a head covering too. although it runs about 4-6" in diameter.. something I haven't been able to wrap my brain around yet either. Beside the fact that it is only 7 mos since we left the H church and when we were X Lm told me that if I took off my tie down covering he would shave his beard off and I haven't been able to reconcile that thought in my head either, I happen to like his beard very much. I couldn't bear the thought that he might resemble a certain relative without his beard. He hasn't shaved though since I haven't been wearing a tie down for a couple years.
Maybe I'll figure it out one of these days when I take the time.
>>I'm not trying to influence her one way or another<<
Actually, Paris, I'm beginning to think that it is your and my duty to take both cupcake and Locklady out on the town and show them how to loosen up a bit. Maybe they'll forget all about head coverings and floral dresses and black shoes the like.
Paris, honestly, cupcake showing up at church next sunday without the head covering would be like you going to the beach topless. I'm not kidding.
I think you are likely right there!
What I am wondering, Am I being a witness more if I keep my beard?? Or would I show them that God gives us freedom by trimming it right off?? I need to keep it trimmed close to wear an SCBA at work if necessary and am sort of a rebel there. I am fully aware that many are slaves to the law there not free like Christ would like us to be.
Cupcake, I well remember the time when I was fighting within myself with many of the same type of questions that you are right now. I still have some of them, but today there is a quietness and rest that I found only when I drew near to Jesus in a full resignation to WHATEVER his plan was for ME. Honest questions about issues that draw us in closer to God or about ones that could seperate us from God are healthy and strengthening. But it is a challenge to sometimes know ourselves and why we are challenging what we once believed.
God is not the author of confusion. He does have answers for us that he will reveal when we come to the end of ourselves and call mightily on Him.
I have prayed for you and will continue to do so.
rreest@gmail.com
***Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, ***
>>>I'm not biased either since I'm not H or XH. <<<
I knew you were not ever H, but didn't you and/or your wife once fellowship with a group where the women wore the head covering? I remember seeing a picture of you and your wife, and she had a head covering on.
Feel free to release or not release as much info as you so desire.
>>>Btw,I wasn't trying to emphasize the whole covering thing because it's no more important than a lot of other things. It is just one of many things that doesn't seem very clear<<<
ALL of the written historical evidence regarding the head covering, as well as the archaeological evidence clearly refutes all the wild-eyed theories nowdays which mankind has come up with in order to do away with the head covering. The head covering was definitely practiced in the churches of apostolic origin for many years (over 100) after the passing of the apostles. Around 100 years after the passing of the apostles, the issue wasn't whether or not the head covering was to be practiced, but rather, how much of the head was to be covered.
Paris I think we have come to what you can call an Impass. there is no earthly way for your to comprehend or for us to explain it in a way that will really tell you where we are coming from.
<But LL is it a salvation issue? I think that is what cupcake is wondering.>
to me it isn't really a salvation issue anymore but a matter of preference. In H land it is totally an issue of Salvation, no woman claiming to be saved would be caught dead without a covering or if she did, her salvation would be totally questioned and church work would surely be forthcoming
<I can't believe LL how you can have such a desire to wear the head covering and then equate it with how your husband would look without his beard!>
When I was exed I thought " Oh great I can take off this anoying tie down and leave it behind and never have to deal with it anymore." Then LM said what he did about shaving and I could not bear the thought. He looks enough like a certain family member and I could not stand that thought that he would really look like him without a beard. It was a matter of picking and choosing my battles and I chose the head covering over the loss of the beard which to me is simply part of who my man is. eventually I was able to take off the tie down and it didn't matter to him anymore.
I have never said that I desire to wear the headcovering, I do so out of respect for others. to me there is a distinct difference. it is a choice I make.
<What is the real issue??> the real issue is finding out who LL is really as a person and who LL is in Christ and what LL is going to do to keep peace and to live her life as a spiritual person in light of eternity. the other thing that I keep in mind is that I also live in a community at large that is very conservative and deal with a lot of mennonite/amish people that look to me as a mediator between them and the world and If my modesty of dress and covering allows them to be open and free and God to use me as more of a witness to them then that is the place I want to be.
And no I do not expect you to ever understand, it seems to be impossible for those who have not had to live the life and make the choices that we have.
This message has been edited by Locklady on Jul 7, 2008 8:32 AM
Thanks LL,,I guess I was kind of hard on you all and I have no background in these things. It is very foreign to me. I could count on maybe both hands the number of women I have ever even seen with a head covering on.
I just don't see it's value. But if it makes you feel closer to God then go for it.
♪*•.¸¸¸♥¸¸¸.•*♪
This message has been edited by pariskat... on Jul 7, 2008 8:45 AM
I know Sirus likes dialogue rather than sermans. I find no fault with that other than we all need teaching and preaching at times..My grown daughtor likes teaching rather than preaching. Sirus may be a dialoguer but others are teachers and preachers. Can we not free one another?
Amos has done an indepth study on the cloth head covering. Some of these fellows like Amos have been sent to us for particular reasons. We need not brush them off so readily.
I am still amazed in all honesty how the cloth covering becomes so central. I cannot get my head around it other than to know that it does become a central issue. My heart goes out to anyone who labors under a tradition or custom that binds us up.
Historically religious men and women have been bound; is that what we want to be known for when the history about us is written? Even democracy is trying to free us on a world wide basis. That of itself speaks. Whom the Son has set free, is free indeed! The believer is to be without law but not lawless. Ironically freedom can also be misused to further more corruption. That is where the true believer has the Spirit of God to lead him into all Truth. In the secular realm that is where the rebublic of law comes to bear.
Here's a rule of thumb; any thing at all that requires an invention of men, is of mankind. Before such inventions as needles and thread or sowing machines, men and women were able to walk with God quite well, the man being the covering of the woman! Our inventions seem to alter our view of God and truth. Dare we ask why?
"God made man upright but man has thought out many inventions!" Men invented paint and now it matters to God what color our cars, houses, or curtains are? Our minds have been awfully altered. It says this; Jesus calls us to soundness of mind and to Love!
I am just now thinking of Scott's Massy tractor and cattle trailer scene. How much soundness of mind do we see in that?
I understand that our unsoundness is all in increments and degrees. I question myself before God in this way; show me my unsoundness and deliver me of it.
Let His love flow, knowing His love flows best through sound minds! Bound people find it hard to Love freely and unihibitidly! Unsoundness of mind fosters inhibitions and inhibitions inhibit the free flow of God's Love.
This message has been edited by doug-64 on Jul 7, 2008 8:46 AM
I feel for you guys, cupcake. I am probably going through a similar time of searching as what you are. Sometimes I wish I could get off the Holde-merry-go-round until I have some solid answers. Instead I just get dizzy.
Someone said here once, and it has stuck with me, that if you want to know the Christ of Scripture you need to find Him in the Scripture. (Or something like that) I am starting to think (and this may sound like a duh! statement) that if one wants to find God the Bible is the best place to start.(and I am talking about someone from very religious background - like we have) I mean studying it and searching it out, mining it for truth without ANY preconceived ideas about what it says, not the typical? H approach of reading a few verses or chapter in the morning, running out the door and forgetting what you read. Not reading it through the filter of BD&P, Mirror of Truth, MOT, Conference Decisions, what the CGCM teaches or what "the forefathers" said.. Read it for what God says to YOU. Try and understand what it is actually saying. I have been surprised sometimes what the Bible actually says if you read it that way, and mortified that I have read it so many years with blinders on.
This message has been edited by anonoH on Jul 7, 2008 11:00 AM This message has been edited by anonoH on Jul 7, 2008 10:34 AM
Cupcake.. I will have to think about the things I want to tell you before I put them all down here but just want you to know that I love to read your posts and I have wanted to respond to you many times but usually by the time I'm done reading what all I want to read I feel guilty for being on the computer and have to get off to get some things done.
I've been expelled for... well since 92. WOW!! 15 years!! I didn't leave in a searching for God mode but I can just imagine how leaving the H. searching would be so incredibly hard cuz we are taught that is the only way and who in the world wants to leave knowing they are getting onto the broad road headed for Hell when they could stay on the straight and narrow where you have a whole church full of friends and family headed for Heaven together. I know that's how it feels. I also know how it feels to ask these questions and get answers like "just take it to the Lord and honestly seek His answers." We are so use to being able to take our questions to our mothers, aunts, preachers wives, deacons wives or almost any sister or brother in the church and have our questions answered very easily in an audible voice we hear with a face we can see. So much easier than relying on the faith and trust it takes to hear the voice of Jesus... Okay I have to go, I have children needing me but I will write more later..
Prayers and Love, Shannon
As an H it becomes so hard to trust anybody so how can you trust, really trust, God? As an H when you "become willing for whatever he has for you" that means whatever the church says, period. It can seem so right. It may seem like what God wants, but in reality may have nothing to do with being saved. Thank you for asking questions.
Studying scripture and learning to trust God is the only true answer (OTA), and I urge you to continue doing that, cupcake. You are an intelligent thinking woman and I believe God has plans for you, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." (Jer. 29:11) Don't give up asking questions.
I'm not an H, but have Holdi-background and understand it pretty well.
I have truly been overwhelmed and touched by the care and encouragement you have all been giving out-through forum and email. I never expected so many responses and the emails have been warm and enlightening. This forum has been an answer to prayer so far! Before I felt very alone in all this and it's been wonderful to hear that many of you know exactly what it's like and understand and by sharing your stories I can see light at the end of this tunnel...hugs to all of you. It must be late;I'm getting sappy...
>>Since it's been noticed that I like to talk, let me say this:<<
Doug, since this thread seems to be about cupcake's questions, why don't you start a new thread for your sermons?
Kevin, just out of curiosity, why do you question and provoke Doug, and then when he replies with clarity you get all #@#$# off and tell him to start his own thread? If you don't want to engage in dialogue with someone, then don't provoke them in the first place. (Especially not Doug!!)
cupcake, I have come to suspect that not one single doctrine is worth quibbling over. Read the Bible and see if you notice Jesus saying something like this. The moment you start to put a magnifying glass on any portion of scripture searching for the correct way of doing things, you are already quie a ways down the wrong path, barking up the wrong tree. Instead of pondering headcoverings, ponder instead if it is possible to comprehend how far astray the Holdemans actually are. Their entire premise rests upon knowing the right way of doing things, and the punishments and rewards for good or bad behaviour, all doled out by Holdepreachers who keep their own sins under the rug. Do you hear what I am saying? Get way back, take a looong look, are ask yourself if you have been missing the forest for the trees. It is all wrong, all based upon the wrong idea. A book of rules and interpretation of rules is what Jesus came to wipe out. They are doing exactly what the Jews did. They wrote a book called the Mishnah which clarified all the laws and gave further instructions which helped the people to make a wide enough circle around the laws so as not to break one. Sounds like BD&P. Much was added and the Pharisees were the ones who got to be the legal guardians of these laws. They watched with an eagle eye. Jesus simply said he came to do away with all this. Can people not read the Bible? Laws and books of laws are to be done away with. It is ALL about the condition of the heart. I don't think that a person is judged by God for one single outward thing. The headcovering is one thing that is extremely hard to get past, but once a person does, they feel no condemnation and never look back.
Lack of a headcovering has not bothered me one single time since I cast it aside. It is the glue that holds the Holdeman church together. No wonder it's so hard to get past.
Cammie, the idea that the farther you go in the direction of self-applying what can be known of good or of God, the farther you get from anything that's real. That's perfectly said. We need less deception, not more of it. Deception is what occurred in Eden at precisely that same tree i.e. the knowledge of good and evil.
To start with no one self-applies the printed page for righteousness until we have idolized the printed page! We have got to come to terms with this. The living God is trying to take us somewhere! At the point of self-applying the printed page for righteousness or for right doing, we are inadvertantly calling the printed page God himself. Even though men have written as moved upon by the Holy Ghost, the printed page is an invention of man but that which abides out beyond the printed page is the Living God! This is what the writers of the Bible were always pointing us toward!
We idolize the printed page because we do NOT properly believe in the living God. It's a religious form of athieism. I have seen more doubts and unbelief among legalists than anywhere. If a legalist is not doubting his salvation he is doubting God himself. Trying to believe may get us an E for effort but it is not Belief!
Such idolatry merely props up the idea of one's belief in God but it's not the Belief in the living God or in His name! Belief on His name is how the early church began at Pentecost! How far off have we swerved and how much counterfeit behavior are we all guilty of? What happened to spontaneity and to power? For the gospel we preach is not only one of words but one of the demonstration of Spirit and of Power!
Thank God for the power of God, Colin!
This message has been edited by doug-64 on Jul 8, 2008 10:34 AM
>>Kevin, just out of curiosity, why do you question and provoke Doug, and then when he replies with clarity you get all #@#$# off and tell him to start his own thread? If you don't want to engage in dialogue with someone, then don't provoke them in the first place. (Especially not Doug!!)<<
Relax, Mutther. I know Doug is your friend, but I'm sure he is more than capable of defending himself.
Btw, over on the "death's door" thread Doug and I had a nice little conversation. Apparently I'm not too pissed off at him.
Yeah, I always have a tendency to jump up and protect my friends, such babies they are!
Really, I don't see myself as defending Doug, I just wonder why such a smart guy as you behaves in such an unstable manner sometimes. I thought this forum was designed as a place for people to preach!
At first glance you’re asking thought provoking questions regarding the church you belong to but are having a difficult time leaving. The most outstanding feature is the fact that you are asking these questions at all. And on secnd glance, might I add, rather silly questions from an outsider’s perspective. You are merely asking them in order to avoid the inevitable. As long as you keep questioning the petty issues you continue to avoid asking the really important questions and thereby assuage and soothe your unrest by assuring yourself that you are genuinely searching for the truth (and you may well be). The fact of the matter is you know what is right and true, you’re just not prepared to follow your instincts with action. You’re avoiding the inevitable. You know without a shadow of a doubt that once you stand up and speak out, your church and your family will in unity stand up and betray you and that is what you are afraid of. Nothing wrong with fear of betrayal. It hurts like hell. While you dither about in the land of indecision you continue to commit the worst sin of all which is that of betraying yourself. It takes much more courage to speak up and defend your personal truth than it does to dither about in a “Christian” community that does not love you unconditionally.
Cupcake I sense from what you write that you are a woman of strength and integrity. Speak out with confidence in defense of your rights and personal beliefs and utilize the wonderful talents you so obviously possess.
>>I just wonder why you behave in such an unstable manner sometimes.<<
Mutther, I was thinking about what you said concerning me being unstable sometimes and I had kind of a good laugh.
Mutther, who are you to speak about my so called unstableness? I can remember you coming on here and ranting about the Holdemans. If I recall correctly, you didn’t exactly come across as the rock of Gibraltar either. It’s okay, Mutther, I still like ya anyway. Everyone is allowed to say what they really feel sometimes, right? Okay, even Doug. As much as his words start to blur together for me sometimes (sorry Doug) it’s still his right. Listening to someone preach just isn’t my thing.
Also, Mutther, I’ve never been to see a therapist nor have I utilized anti-depressants. Some people turn from a life of drugs and go straight to a life of religion.
I prefer the natural state. No God, no drugs, no religion.
Cupcake,
You are not alone, the same thoughts exist among many of us. But people are scared of voicing things for fear of holdeHeaveHo.... Seek God's word, you will find the answers. My prayer's are with you.
We are agreed about the words Kevin. I am trying to use less words to say the same things. Believe it or not when I preach publically my messages are not nearly so long as they used to be.
As to words; Kevin look at Romans chapter seven and tell me how you did. Get back to me on this one my man. I must hear from you!
Jerry,
I was outa town this week...sorry for the delay in responding.
I knew you were not ever H, but didn't you and/or your wife once fellowship with a group where the women wore the head covering? I remember seeing a picture of you and your wife, and she had a head covering on.
That is correct. It was a culture that my wife and I choose to not be a part of anymore. The covering is a cultural issue. If you really believe it is a Biblical issue then men should never wear hats.
Feel free to release or not release as much info as you so desire.
I have nothing to hide...what information should or should not be released?
edits for spelling
This message has been edited by freeNdeed on Jul 12, 2008 1:40 PM This message has been edited by freeNdeed on Jul 12, 2008 1:39 PM
1 Corinthians 11
4Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
I believe Mark is referring to the above verse. Its about consistency.
From another thread;
Does this sound familiar? When I was at a restaurant the other day I removed my cap to pray and then I put the cap back on my head. This would be the equivalent of hanging the covering on the back of the chair in the past. Now women must be covered at all times based on the scripture "pray without ceasing", yet men don't have to be uncovered all the time. This type of inconsistency in itself shows error in our guidelines.
>>>The covering is a cultural issue. If you really believe it is a Biblical issue then men should never wear hats.<<<
Yes, I do believe it is a Biblical issue. I believe that a woman's head should be covered while praying or prophecying, and I believe that a man's head should be uncovered while praying or prophecying.
I believe that those groups which truly believe that women should always wear a head covering are definitely being inconsistent with Scripture if their men ever wear hats.
>>>I have nothing to hide...what information should or should not be released?<<<
I'm curious as to which group or fellowship you and your wife were associated with.
This message has been edited by UncleRemus. on Jul 13, 2008 5:52 AM
>>>Some called it Amish/Mennonite or more commonly referred as "Beachy" (which was the last name of the person who started the group)<<<
Well, isn't that interesting! I used to visit a certain Beachy Amish/Mennonite church when I lived in Kansas. VERY nice people. One time when we were all sitting and eating after church, I asked one of the Beachy women (who was seated right across from me) if she wore her head covering when she took a shower. And then when she told me "no," I asked her if she ever prayed while taking a shower. I honestly don't remember her answer, but I'll never forget the look on her face!!!!! I mean blushing and everything!!!
Some of the friendliest people I have ever met in my life. I was definitely touched by the warm welcome they gave me.
* I also noticed that they used a Holdeman Hymn book when I was there.
>>>I would like to think you are including me with that statement. <<<
Absolutely!
To my knowledge I have never met you personally, but you and Peter have both displayed to me great character in that you have both been very reconcilable towards me after disputes we have had.
This message has been edited by UncleRemus. on Jul 14, 2008 5:50 AM
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