I wish I had more time to expound on this right now, but I really don't so I'm going to try to say it in a nutshell.


In both past and more recent threads, there is this idea presented that "doctrine doesn't matter anymore, we have liberty" (i.e. including, but not limited to, the head covering). Obedience to the Word of God is becoming (and already is) legalism, not in reality, but in the perception of so-called Christians. Rejecting and avoiding false doctrine is presented as a lack of love. Living and teaching humble obedience to the true Gospel is being called pride and superiority.

This to me is a false doctrine that is feeding the belly of man instead of honoring God.

Liberty is not an opportunity to live for our fleshly desires, it is power to live in truth. Freedom is not an opportunity to do as we please, it is freedom from the bondages of sin.

Doug-64, and many others are pushing this false doctrine (and yes, it is a doctrine) as being truth. I would like to hear how some of you are arriving at your conclusions.



Edit: I see a part of this false doctrine as saying that obedience to the Word of God is wrong, because such inevitably ends up in legalism. The Pharisees are used as an example. Note, the Pharisees were condemned not because the outside looked clean, but because the inside wasn't. Jesus even said that many of the works they were doing was a good thing, and should be kept intact... Matthew 23:23, and Luke 11:42.

Wrong, TR. Obedience to the word of God should come from a changed heart, and one's walk of life should be above reproach. But it should come because the heart is changed, not because one is concerned about following the right rules. Trust me, TR God is not sitting up there somewhere making black marks in his book based upon the clothing you are wearing, or the car you drive. Tell me, does the Bible say, or does it not say, that Jesus came to do away with the writing of ordinances that was against us? What does this mean to you? That the Jewish laws were replaced with BD&P and conference decisions, or that they were DONE AWAY WITH, NAILED TO THE CROSS? There is no set of ordinances that can condemn us.

TR; I think the idea put forward was not to do away with "doctrine", but to not worship doctrine. Doctrine/teachings are for the benefit of believers, and not vice-versa. The teachings of the Bible are there to bring us to a better life for us and those we rub shoulders with. Of course, the Christian faith has its symbols too, and we do well to carefully observe these as the Bible teaches.

I am a little confused as to what all you mean with "doctrine". I do not at all believe we should do away with any teachings of the Bible, and so perhaps you could be more specific. The most important teaching, in my opinion, is that we realize that God is totally righteous and perfect, and man is an imperfect sinner; and that God sent His Son to reconcile man to God, and man must make a conscious choice to honor God in this way. Following this, are instructions how to pattern our life to honor God and serve our fellow man.

Hank, what I mean by doctrine is this; the firm belief that you must wear a headcovering to be saved, a man must wear a beard, you must practice footwashing, holy kiss, baptism by pouring, excommunication and avoidance, etc. These are the "doctrines" that the Holdemans put in the forefront and seem to almost worship. TR likes to postualate that those of us who have left have gone rogue. Actually, the church I go to practices footwashing. I find it quite pleasant. But I don't believe I would be cast into hell forever and ever if I didn't physically carry out this, shall we call it ordinance. I believe in Godly living. TR seems to believe that I believe in going completley wild. Not at all. I just continue to say that when you put the Word of God under a microscope to determine the right or wrong way to do things, and by which you can become more pleasing to God, and ultimately better than other people, you have taken a wrong turn. Jesus said, A new commandment I give unto you. It is about love and having a pure heart, about growing and progressing. Not about stalling out at the correct way to do things.

TR, I would like to reply. I also agree that their are people who take this liberty aspect as well as the legal aspect to far either way.

I can only speak for myself, but I feel that without being personally involved with a living relationship with Jesus I totally lose the balance between the two.

In some areas of my life I tend to be super legalistic not about so much about material things but about attitudes. I tend to think I have to do everything for everyone else, constantly sacrificing my needs and desires to help others. I judge others who do not take the time to help the sick, or the hurting and write them off. Often not actually having a caring heart toward the individuals I am serving. I build up resentment and become overwhelmed and irritated with my family. Giving and serving the less fortunate, and the hurting becomes my idol, and the work I do counts for nothing because God is not in it, and I am not the person that God is going to use to minister to these folks....it becomes about me. How come when I am steeped in legalism in a certain area of my life I get all consumed with what are others are thinking of me????

In other areas such as cussing and swearing I tend to get very liberal not caring how my actions effect others or what they think about my actions...and why is it that during these times I think muttering "Oh God forgive me covers it all"...

If I don't stay plugged into the Spirit regularly I very quickly lose the balance that is intended for me and I begin to judge other Christians around me and compare myself to them instead of being obedient to what the still small voice requires of me. It is amazing how quickly I lose the balance and focus God has intended for me personally.
If I find myself totally uncaring and harsh about something or consumed with what others think in another aspect of my life those are red flags for me to check the Spirit-o-meter.

We aren't born corporately and we will not die corporately...it is a solitary journey we take with God from here to eternity. No man knows our path better then He does. I know that while I respect and care for others and their opinions and ideas, the relationship I have with Him is all that matters. He knows the balance for my life that will allow me to be the person He created me to be.

As for following doctrine, I do not believe we are asked to follow doctrine for doctrines sake. It is not through works that we are saved but through Him.
Here is my practical explanation of this in my life.
I do not wear a covering or a certain style of dress to be a Christian witness. I don't understand how this has anything to do with Him, the focus is on me and the "strange" clothes.
I dress in clothes that suit my body type and the ones that usually hang on the sale rack...I don't give to much thought to them actually. I do understand that in order to be a witness for Him I must be filled with the Holy Spirit. If my words or deeds touched someone and helped them out, it is about Him, not about me and my doctrine about dress that was the witness.
God is big enough He can use me dressed however I am.

I don't follow doctrine I do not understand. If God reveals something He wants me to do or not to do I understand very well why, and the implications it has on my life. If I am disobedient, I also know the consequences that will follow...I'm not talking about fear being expelled or going to hell, I'm talking about things that hinder happiness my life, either physically or spiritually.
I just don't understand how anyone can follow all the rules written or implied, not understanding them and stay passionate about their Jesus. He is not a formula or degree to be learned.

I also accept that we are all progressing and there are many more truths He wants to reveal to me, and some of the so called doctrines that seemed ridiculous in the past now make a lot more sense to me. In fact I even practice them, not for doctrines sake but because I know they improve the quality of my Christian life. ( personal debts )

TR, I believe the same is true for others. I trust God to lead you in the path that He has chosen for you...and I'm pretty sure that everyones journey will look slightly different then mine, but I have no doubt that they will all bare forth fruit.

May each one of us learn to walk in obedience hearing His voice coaching us down the path that is ours alone.

BTW, Tr, when you see me helping Granny paint her garage doors, baking cookies for the lodge, cussing like a sailor under my breath, go ahead....reprove me I need it!



Edited to add the doctrine speech...

awwww, Grace! What a sweetie!

As Hank said; the real truth of what some are saying [if I understand Hank]is that we should not worship the scriptures but rather accept them, look at them, and then look past them to Christ.

True and accurate doctrine is incredibly important. These are the pointers toward the living God in Christ; these are the windows through which we gaze upon upon Him! As we see Him we become like Him! He alone is truly righteous and only by seeing Him can we vicariousely partake of His righteousness!

Christ alone can really change us! Self-applying precepts and ordinances to our lives may give the appearence that real change has come. Jesus said what he did to the Pharisees about their outer appearence while they were under the old covenant. The record of the New Covenant begins with the Acts. He told them perfectly right for the covenant they were under.

The Covenants have changed and the idea that to self-apply a known precept or ordinance to our lives is now a dead one so far as righteousness is concerned. It was nailed to His Cross! Why is this hard to understand? And yet I do understand.

Either the original post is coming from a person that does not understand what is actually being said or this person is still veiled by the law and is yet in the position of the old covenant. Many church type people are still veiled in this way. These call the true gospel message a false thing because that is the way they see it.

The veil of the old covenant is in the idea of ordinances and precepts for righteousness or as guidelines to righteousness. This veil will not allow these to see! The veil is rent, there is no veil over us unless we slip back to the old covenant position.

Those veiled in this way think that they must get [willing] for the old covenant way of walking this thing out. This type of [willingness] does a despite to the Spirit of Grace! Carefully read the whole letter to the Galatians with unveiled face. Now read 11Cor.3:16,17 and 18. The veil can be lifted and it happens when we actually sell out to the Person of Christ Jesus who is risen and alive! The old covenant type veil though applied to new covenant script is simply not in Him! That veil is torn into. That system is nailed to His cross. We can be found in Him having no righteousness of our own which is of (precepts and ordinances). We can be clothed by Christ Jesus!

In Christ there are no guidelines to righteousness for He in person is our righteousnes! Those ideas conflict with each other. Unveiled by Him I live to tell!

We are a New Creation and we can freely walk in His righteousness, it happens spontaneousely because we are actually a New Creation! Honesty dictates now that we walk our lives out from that which we now are. That is the obedience to Christ Jesus! Free from the law altogether but not lawless!


I need no apology from this person