Don Reimer’s Baptism
Saturday, July 19, 2008 at 11am
at Bob Weatherill’s Cottage on OK Lake
with Pastor Larry, Al Luesink, and Bob Weatherill
Don’s Testimony:
I was raised on a farm in Steinbach, Manitoba where my family of ten siblings attended a very conservative, legalistic church. During my teens I was very dedicated to the church rules but became disillusioned in my twenties. God seemed not to care about me and I lost my faith in God and ended up turning my back on Him. At that time I had a 50 cow dairy farm on 165 acres which I sold to move to the city. After I moved I completed an LPN course in Winnipeg and worked as a Paramedic and Pathologist assistant in Abbotsford. That’s when I met Edith who was an X-Ray technologist and married three months later in 1970. As a strong Christian she brought me back to church. Things were looking up and in 1976 we moved to Vernon.
After five years at VJH I transferred to Enderby Hospital working there for twenty years before retiring in 1999. From 1976 to 1984 we were active in the church but due to governing policies were turned off and decided to no longer attend. For twenty years we did not attend any church as it seemed, to us, to be an ethical and political thing. I turned bitter, questioning my beliefs and gradually slipped into agnosticism.
During that time I took up cross-country skiing getting into 30 and 50 km races. Since they were on Saturdays and Sundays they occupied my weekends and in 1995 I completed a World Masters Cup race. I thought I did not need God as life seemed good and satisfying - but God began dealing with me bringing me to the realization that I had to make a change, but how? I hadn’t prayed for so many years as the religious world was just a joke to me. I was far from God.
Then I hit rock bottom. I lost my friends and my relationships crumbled. I fell deep into sin unable to find my way out. Tired of being at the bottom, I began to pray from the hole I had dug myself into. Eventually yet swiftly, the answer came through a supernatural experience. In a very deep sleep I saw my younger brother dying of cancer being close to death and unconscious.
In my dream, he came to me showing his resurrected body. He looked elegant and animated and was all excited but I couldn’t see his face. As I awoke, he left as a shadow through the wall. The year after this event, I looked for remorse trying to find repentance but felt it going nowhere. After about a whole year of battling to gain remorse and repentance, God touched me with His unconditional love and all of the bitterness left me. Love and joy filled me. That was eight years ago.
A second miracle happened as well. I had Basal Cell Carcinoma on my forehead for ten years. It was treated many times even with surgery and always came back. A biopsy confirmed it was skin cancer and was treated by a dermatologist. During the following six months it became worse. The day before another appointment finally opened up, I looked in the mirror and noticed nothing but a small scale on my forehead. God performed a miracle - it had been completely healed.
All through the years of turmoil Edith stayed by my side, and after everything God did we felt we needed Christian fellowship and began to look around. That’s when we began attending Cornerstone Bible Church.
Why do I seek baptism? A key verse in Romans 6:3, “Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death: we were therefore buried with him through baptism into his death; in that Christ was raised through the glory of the father, we too may live a new life!”
This is what I feel I have experienced . . . I have buried my past with Jesus and rose to a new life. Baptism through immersion is a witness as to what has happened to me.
Invitation & Directions
All our GBC family is invited to come. To get to the Weatherill cabin you go past O’Keefe Ranch and look for signs to Fintry and La Casa. Go south on Westside road for about 26 km. At 20 km you pass Parker Cove and the restaurant. At 22 km you see Westshore Road going off to the right. Stay on Westside. Next left is Evely Park entrance. Next left is Wainman Cove Road. Wind your way down and look for a cottage with a brown steel roof. The name Weatherill is on an outbuilding. There will be a lunch. Please speak to Edith (PH: 545-4790) if you would like to help with the potluck lunch. See you there!
don, we would love to come! Really wish we could. But we'll keep your phone # in case we ever come your way. KS is a little far off right now. Love your testimony of the Lamb of God touching you. He is faithful!! calledoutPTL
Don, we've been trying to rearrange schedules to travel but it just ain't working out. I'm sure you will have a great day and wish we could be there to share it with you.
Water baptism is for the remission of sins, just like the Scriptures say it is.....not symbolically, but literally.
One who has come to repentance, believed in Jesus, and been water baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit has been born again and has received forgiveness for their sins.
When we sin AFTER baptism, we are NOT to get re-baptized, but rather, if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
This is the Orthodox belief on the matter.
In the days of the early Church (in the generation immediately following that of the apostles) it was the Gnostic Heretics who denied regenerational water baptism, not the Church.
Martin Luther, the "Father of the Reformation" (who believed that man is saved by God's grace through faith alone) also taught the Orthodox position regarding this issue.
Remission means to send off. The knowledge of forgiveness may come before water baptism. The peace of Jesus may come to us before water baptism. The Baptism of Spirit may come to us before water baptism. "For by [one Spirit] are we all baptized into one body" 1Cor.12:13. Water cannot do this but water baptism is very important because of the remission thing involved.
Something solid occurs in us by water baptism, our sins are actually sent off. It accomplishes something in the mind and it is very important that this occur. I see in different places that little emphasis is placed upon water baptism or that it is put off until summer when the water is warmer or it is put off until there are more believers to baptize making it feasible to fill the tank, or it is put off to test the conversion; these things are not good.
It's important that what happens in our heart immediately happens in our minds!
I was taught and believe that water baptism is mostly a witness to others of our commitment to our new life in Christ. Baptism is not a means to salvation. I don't think it is a literal washing away of sins. But is a symbol of a new birth.
There are 2 baptisms one of water and one of fire, the fire being the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 3 (King James Version)
11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
That was good Paris; our salvation is a Spiritual gift! The Spiritual baptism is life-changing bringing zeal and fire!
Sins are not forgiven by water baptism but the memory of our sins can be sent off or remitted by water baptism, provided we actually believe this can be true of water baptism. If we do not believe this to be true of water baptism, water baptism does not have this effect. The whole matter is about belief and faith.
Sometimes we go through the motions of physical things which actually speak of Spiritual things! This is true of the sacriments of wine and unleavened bread as well. Do we eat and drink of His body actually when eating and drinking these sacriments; only if our living Faith is such that we are already eating and drinking of Him!
Once our sins are actually sent off there is no more self-condemnation from our sinful pasts. If we will now walk in the Spirit rather than in the flesh there remains no more condemnation in us. Old things are passed away and behold all things have become new. The Lord Jesus wants us entirely free! Let us keep our eye on His goal for us.
Water baptism is also a public announcement of our repentance toward Christ and our burial into Him. It also announces our faith in His real Baptism which of course is Spiritual in nature!
Thanks for all your replies,its been heart warming.
Jerry your response, is what many believe,and what the pouring baptism people hold against the water immersion. But also is what turns people off to water immersion. Doug I really enjoy your post. the comment holds true for the reason I am going to follow water immersion.Jesus was circumcised, and baptized, and yet had no sin, this shows to me that, baptism can mean different things for people.
For me, I need help in being able to put my past behind me, I know I am forgiven, but my human side, keeps bringing my past before me.I feel by water immersion, symbolizes once and for all I will bury my past with Jesus, and now I am a new person!!I feel that already has happened in a spirtual sense.But I am doing this water immersion, as a witness, to all that will be there at my baptism.Also a greater infilling of the Holy spirit, on myself, and a divine healing for the hurting that are going to be at the baptism.and a pouring of the Holy spirit to all that are present.
don, I just want to say thanks for sharing your testimony. For me it seems I love to hear of and to see people get baptized. It is thrilling for the people watching and listening too. So thank you for sharing.
Don, my son was baptized on Sunday. Last night he was talking to me and he said that he couldn't imagine having a few drops of water poured or sprinkled on him. He said he desperatley wanted to be "submerged". He has never had anyone do any teaching about this, he just knew in his heart what he wanted. He said "I wanted to be washed. I wanted to go all the way under. When I came up I felt like all of my sins and all of my past had been washed away. I have never had such a feeling of peace in my life."
I'm beginning to see that there is a whole lot more in baptism than what I was taught. And yet I don't mean to say it has any power to saver you, per se.
IRENAEUS, who was taught by Polycarp (a disciple of the apostles), said.....
"And [Naaman] dipped himself, says [the Scripture], seven times in Jordan. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new born babes, even as the Lord has declared: Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Irenaeus, Fragment 34)
and,
"And when we come to refute them [the Gnostics], we shall show in its fitting place, that this class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole faith." (Irenaeus Against Heresies, book 1, chapter 21)
JUSTIN who lived during the same time period as many of the disciples of the apostles, and whose writings were well before those of Irenaeus, said.....
"I will also relate the manner in which we dedicated ourselves to God when we had been made new through Christ; lest, if we omit this, we seem to be unfair in the explanation we are making. As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.....And for this we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe.....And in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Ghost, who through the prophets foretold all things about Jesus, he who is illuminated is washed." (The First Apology Of Justin, chapter 61)
THE SCRIPTURES:
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit." (Matthew 28:19)
And Peter said to them, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the forgiveness of your sins." (Acts 2:38)
"And now why do you delay? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name." (Acts 22:16)
"He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit." (Titus 3:5)
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16:16)
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: (1 Peter 3:21)
"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water AND the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (John 3:5)
* Nowhere in Scripture will one find the teaching saying that the water only "symbolically" washes away sin, or only "symbolically" is for the forgiveness of sins. That teaching is adhered to by those who choose not to believe what the Scriptures actually do say. And where does it say in Scripture that it is ok for one who has received "believer's baptism" to be re-baptized? Is there any precedence found anywhere in Scripture for this? I don't know of any. Maybe someone could help me out and show me where it is. My view is that those who do such things are crucifying to themselves the Son of God afresh, and putting him to an open shame.
This message has been edited by UncleRemus. on Jul 11, 2008 3:59 PM
God desires that the whole man enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, not only his spirit but that his soul and body may enter in as well.
Acts 2:38 was not misquoted so much as it was quoted in an incomplete way. It says in the Greek rendering of this verse that sins are [remitted] or [forgiven]or [delivered from] in water baptism.
In water baptism we leave our sins behind us!
Our sins were actually forgiven from the foundations of the earth, but what we recieve is the knowledge of this when they are sent off in water baptism. Sometimes this knowledge occurs in us before water baptism and in these cases water baptism certainly solidifies and reinforces this knowledge.
We must be born of the Spirit, for as it says in another passage, we are saved by His Life! In 1Pet.3:21 the last of the verse it speaks of being saved by the resurrection of Jesus Christ! First His shed blood and then His resurrection made this possible and in the ascention His Spirit was released to us to Baptize us! If I do not go away I cannot come to you, Jesus said! He who is Spirit is our savior!
In the figurative sense the natural water in Noah's day saved them by lifting them into a safe realm on the surface of the flood. This lifting up to saftey is the Spiritual Baptism in the New Covenant! The truth of Noah and his family is a figurative truth as it says in the first part of verse 21. The natural speaks of the Spiritual when it's spoken in the figurative sense.
We must first be born of water, that's our natural birth when the water broke, and then we must be born of Spirit to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. There must be the first birth and there must be a second birth to enter in.
There's a lot of typeology going on here but the real truth of the matter is good to understand. Those who depend upon water baptism for salvation find it hard to depend upon the Spirit of Jesus and the Life of Jesus to save them. There's an irony there. I have seen this different times.
1Cor.12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body; that body is His body! He himself saves us! He who is Spirit is our personal salvation once we are born of Him! We partake of His salvation! It's the salvation of the Lord!
Take a look at Acts 16:30-33 where the Jailer specifically asks what he must do to be saved and where baptism fits in.
"and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved, you and your household." 32And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house. 33And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household," (Acts 16:30-33, NASB).
If baptism were part of salvation, then Paul should have said, "Believe and be baptized and you will be saved." But, he did not. Also, consider Acts 10:44-46.
VS, I noticed that you said you wanted to get baptized again and I think you may have said that before on the forum. I'm surprised that you haven't yet.
When our sons were young they were both baptized when they were "confirmed" into the Methodist church. I was real leary about even having them confirmed in a church but I went along with it. At that time my oldest son really did not know what he was doing. About 3 years later he was at a Christian camp and accepted Christ as his saviour and then he proceeded to find a church on his own, I have a feeling through the help of the Holy Spirit and then he got baptized again because he knew what it meant then.
Also my husband got baptized just about 3 years ago because in the Lutheran church that he had grown up in they did infant baptism which I believe they just called "Christening? in any case I don't see the harm. It's a heart thing anyway.
I'm happy to hear of your sons baptism in the Lord.
Thanks Doug& Paris,Mother, for your replies.YOU warm my heart.
Jerry, it would be nice it you could cut down your post.The articles, you quote, I can find for myself, on the Internet.I appreciate some of your own convictions, even if I don.t agree with them.I am not planning in sparing with you on your interpretation of baptism or what you find on the Internet.
But I will leave with you 1 Peter 3;18-22:For Christ died for once for all,for the righteous,and for the unrighteous, to bring you to God.He was put to death in his body, but made alive by the spirit.Through whom, also he went and preached to the spirits in prison.Who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the Ark was being build.In only a few people, eigth in all, were saved,through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you, also not the removel of dirt from the body, but the pledge of a good conscience, toward God.It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.Who has gone into heaven, and is at the right hand of God, with angels authorities and power in submission to him
>>>Why did Paul say this then? "For Christ did not send me to baptise, but to preach the gospel." (1Corinthians 1:17)?<<<
Why? Most likely because Christ did not send him to baptize, but to preach the gospel. Paul did baptize some, but preaching the gospel is what Christ specifically sent him to do. So, someone else obviously did the baptizing. The apostle Paul said.....
"I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth." (1 Cor. 3:6)
When the apostle Peter preached the gospel in Acts chapter 2, "those who had received his word were baptized; and there were added that day about three thousand souls" (Acts 2:41). Do you think it was necessary for the apostle Peter to personally baptize every one of them? I don't think so. He might not have baptized any of them. It doesn't say. But what it does say is that the apostle Peter told them to "repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF YOUR SINS" (Acts 2:38). And the apostle Paul was told by Ananias to "arise, and be baptized, and WASH AWAY YOUR SINS, calling on His name" (Acts 22:16). This is God's word, and it's really not that hard to understand if one just believes what it says. The early Christians who were aquainted with the disciples of the apostles believed it AS WRITTEN. But new age partial truth christianity waters down the word of God. And so they read "symbolic representation only" (or something else) into the text..... because their theology won't allow them to believe what it actually says.
doug said.....
>>>Sins are NOT forgiven by water baptism but the memory of our sins can be sent off or remitted by water baptism, provided we actually believe this can be true of water baptism. If we do not believe this to be true of water baptism, water baptism does not have this effect.<<<
You've got to be kidding me! That's cult talk. The Bible says that sins ARE forgiven by water baptism (Acts 2:38), and doug says that they are not. Doug is watering down the word of God by saying that "the memory" of our sins can be remitted by water baptism, but not sin itself. Also, contrary to what doug said, one's own personal belief regarding what is or is not true about water baptism doesn't change what actually is true. I believe that what is actually written is what is actually true. And that's why I'm opposed to re-baptism for those who have already received believer's baptism. It's FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF YOUR SINS, not some self-edifying show and tell dispay of one's "rededication to the Lord" or whatever other reason they come up with to try and justify it.
But you can believe whatever you want to believe, paris. To side with the unorthodox false teachers of this age and their partial truth christianity is what's popular now days.
"And when we come to refute them [the Gnostics], we shall show in its fitting place, that this class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole faith." (Irenaeus Against Heresies, book 1, chapter 21)
Jerry, also look at this; John the baptist was a forerunner of the Kingdom with a forerunning message and a forerunning practice. John baptized with water but there was to come one mightier than He who would baptize with Spirit and Fire!
The house of Israel had rolled their sins ahead year after year since the sacrificial system had been put in place. John was baptizing in this same Israel so that the people could stop carrying their sins. Therefore, for the remission or sending off of these sins John baptized in river Jordan.
Sin and it's guilt must be dealt with before the Kingdom of God could come in them. The same is true today.
The Kingdom of God was at hand but was not yet come with John the baptist. The Kingdom of God is Spiritual! This baptism would be greater than the one of water in river Jorden! This Kingdom came, even blew in as a rushing mighty wind on the day of Pentecost fully come. Wind cannot be seen.
The Kingdom of God is Love, Peace, and Joy in the Holy Ghost! "The Kingdom of God cometh without observation for this Kingdom is in you!" This Kingdom does not come in us by water baptism but rather by the greater Baptism which is one of Spirit and Fire!
I hope this helps in this matter of salvation/restoration. Those two words when used to discribe salvation are synonomous in the Greek texts.
all the best to you! have a wonderful day on that day! you are loved by the King that's what matters. And once again thank you for sharing. I put July 19th on my calendar and will be thinking of you.
IRENAEUS, who was taught by Polycarp (a disciple of the apostles), said.....
"I am able to describe the very place in which the blessed Polycarp sat as he discoursed, and his goings out and his comings in, and the manner of his life, and his physical appearance, and his discourses to the people, and the accounts which he gave of his intercourse with John, and with the others who had seen the Lord. And as he remembered their words, and what he heard from them concerning the Lord, and concerning His miracles and His teaching, having received them from eyewitnesses of the Word of life, Polycarp related all things in harmony with the Scriptures. These things being told me by the mercy of God, I listened to them attentively, noting them down, not on paper, but in my heart. And continually, through Gods grace, I recall them faithfully." (Irenaeus, Fragment 2),
and,
"But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time." (Irenaeus Against Heresies, book 3, chapter 3)
and,
"And when we come to refute them [the Gnostics], we shall show in its fitting place, that this class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole faith." (Irenaeus Against Heresies, book 1, chapter 21)
* Hey doug, I think this guy's got a little more credibility than you do. I think he knew "Greek" a little better than you do too, seeing as how it was his first language. I believe that the writings of those early Christians who lived either during the same time of the apostles or during the same time as the disciples of the apostles well expose the dishonesty and/or ignorance of this generation.
I believe that baptism is required, but it is because of obedience to God, not because the physical act itself washes away sin. In other words, someone cannot know God, even though they haven't repented of their sins, just because they have participated in water baptism. However, someone that disregards the commandment of God (water baptism) despite better knowledge also cannot know God either. In other words, in every case of a man's salvation, it has always been because of obedience to the Lord's command, rather than something such a person contrived upon his own merits. I believe this stand is at the root of the quotes from the forefathers which you have presented. If that is not so, you can feel free to correct me
Concerning immersion, there was someone else that thought "complete immersion" was necessary for the "real" effect...
John 13:9-10
Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.
Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit
OK, so it's not about baptism... however, I see it as a parallel in reasoning and emotion...
>>> In other words, someone cannot know God, even though they haven't repented of their sins, just because they have participated in water baptism.<<<
I agree with that. The apostle Peter said, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the forgiveness of your sins."
I'm not too sure about what you are asking in referrence to what the early Christians believed.
Contrary to the teachings of the Holdeman Church, they definitely believed in regenerational water baptism to those who had first repented. We had a conversation regarding this once before, and it can be found here.....
>>>Sins are NOT forgiven by water baptism but the memory of our sins can be sent off or remitted by water baptism, provided we actually believe this can be true of water baptism. If we do not believe this to be true of water baptism, water baptism does not have this effect.<<<
You've got to be kidding me! That's cult talk. The Bible says that sins ARE forgiven by water baptism (Acts 2:38)
38* Peter replied, “Repent and be baptised, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
_____
Jerry, I think you are mixing up verses here
Eph 4:5* one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
Ac 11:16* Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
the Baptism is referred to as being the one that fills with the Holy Ghost, not the one of water,
How do you figure water baptism into Acts 2:38?
This message has been edited by bawar on Jul 12, 2008 10:59 AM
Admittedly it is a little unclear on the surface of Acts 2:38 which baptism it is speaking of and yet we do well to remember to whom Peter was speaking. He was not speaking to us in order for us to make a doctrine some 2000 years later.
Peter was speaking to the Jewish people to the greatest degree at just the turn of the covenants when animal sacrifices were being exchanged for the ultimate scarifice of Jesus when Peter said; Repent and be baptized in the name of the [Lord Jesus] and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Well, the gift of the Holy Ghost is it's own baptism.
Was not Peter saying this to his fellow Jews, look you fellows, repent of your sin, be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, and you shall receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost? This question will certainly raise some remarks but that's okay.
It's all about receiving by Faith. Jesus said; your faith has made you whole when the lady finally caught up with Him in the crowed and touched Him. Upon touching Him she was healed. That is when Jesus turning to her said; your faith has made you whole. Some may argue with the idea that something or some action on our part can become our point of Faith, but why would they?
If water baptism is thought of as a sacriment which becomes our point of faith for remission of sins, what is wrong with that? Why is that cultish? I believe that is what was happening in Jordan River. The muddy waters of Jordan did not do it, but their Faith did perform it! We can argue on details about how this occurs but let Faith arise!
Sins are remitted or sent off in water baptism was Peter's word. Sins were [forgiven] from the foundations of the earth when the works were finished. Displayed once again to us at Calvary is the forgiveness of our sins by the slain Lamb i.e. the shed-blood atonement! What we receive is the [knowledge of sins forgiven] at a given point in our lives. Faith in the blood atonement frees us! If that is a system of thought then let it stand.
This message has been edited by doug-64 on Jul 12, 2008 1:05 PM This message has been edited by doug-64 on Jul 12, 2008 12:30 PM This message has been edited by doug-64 on Jul 12, 2008 12:13 PM This message has been edited by doug-64 on Jul 12, 2008 12:00 PM This message has been edited by doug-64 on Jul 12, 2008 11:54 AM
>>>How do you figure water baptism into Acts 2:38?<<<
You are only the 2nd person who I have ever heard ask that. I'll get back with you on that in a day or two. I've got some other things going on right now that I need to do, and I don't want to give you just a brief answer. I think it's a good question.
This message has been edited by UncleRemus. on Jul 13, 2008 5:57 AM
>>>How do you figure water baptism into Acts 2:38?<<<
Although I believe Acts 2:38 is speaking of water baptism, I incorrectly stated previously that Acts 2:38 SAYS that sins are forgiven by WATER baptism. Acts 2:38 doesn't specfically mention the word "water". And neither does it specifically mention in Acts 2:38 that "the Baptism is referred to as being the one that fills with the Holy Ghost, not the one of water," as you stated.
I believe that Acts 2:38 is speaking of the same baptism (which is for the forgiveness of sins) as in the following verse (which I also believe is referring to water baptism).....
"And now why do you delay? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name." (Acts 22:16)
Take another verse that you quoted.....
"one Lord, one faith, one baptism" (Eph. 4:5)
I also believe that that's referring to water baptism, and you do not. But it doesn't specifically say one way or the other.
I also believe that the following Scripture is referring to water baptism.....
"Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we toomight walk in newness of life" (Romans 6:3,4)
Take another verse.....
"For BY one Spirit we were all baptized into one body." (1 Cor. 12:13)
I believe that the word "baptized" here is also referring to water baptism. I believe that the Holy Spirit is the One who effects with water the second birth.
"He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit." (Titus 3:5)
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So, you say "this" and I say "that".
But what does the "course of performance" say?
This is where I turn to the testimony of the Christians who were either directly aquainted with the apostles or the disciples of the apostles (as well as other Christians who lived during that same time period). It's no secret around here that I give them and their written testimony greater weight than all of the numerous personal opinions and interpretations of Scripture by man today. In the age immediately following that of the apostles, the apostolic churches were one and undivided in the faith, and the folowing is a sample of what they believed regarding this issue.....
"I will also relate the manner in which we dedicated ourselves to God when we had been made new through Christ; lest, if we omit this, we seem to be unfair in the explanation we are making. As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.....And for this we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe.....And in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Ghost, who through the prophets foretold all things about Jesus, he who is illuminated is washed." (The First Apology Of Justin, chapter 61)
Jerry, if you follow a dead man into eternal life, are you not divining truth by Necromancy?
What I mean is, if you read the bible and allow the Holy Ghost to reconcile the Meaning, then the living God is the diviner, and then the divine, but if you see two ways, and you allow the engraved words of a dead man to tip the scales of your understanding, how is that not diving truth by necromancy?
This message has been edited by bawar on Jul 14, 2008 7:27 AM
>>> if you read the bible and allow the Holy Ghost to reconcile the Meaning<<<
There are literally thousands of different churches today because of NOTHING MORE than man's own personal opinions and interpretaion of Scripture. And while at the same time of claiming that "the Holy Spirit" has led and guided them into truth, they all somehow come up with different and opposing truths that "the Holy Spirit" had supposedly led and guided them into.
I believe that the writings of those early Christians who lived either during the same time of the apostles or during the same time as the disciples of the apostles well expose the dishonesty and/or ignorance of this delusional generation.
I believe that Calvary Chapel is a good example of a "church" today which is being led by dishonest and/or ignorant delusional people.
Jerry; I will quote more "dead men"... just for the record. Our Dutch Anabaptist ancestors argued that 1 Cor. 12;13, spoke of Spirit baptism and not water baptism. They said it was clear, that one is baptized into the body of Christ by the HOLY SPIRIT as this scripture says.
The infant baptizers of the day used that verse to justify infant baptism, saying it meant water baptism. They argued that in order for infants to be in the "body or church outside of which there is no salvation", (by one Spirit we are all baptized into one body "), infants needed water baptism.
The Anabaptists taught that entry into the "church/body outside of which there is no salvation" is by FAITH, and all who are restored by faith are in this body. Of course, children do not have faith, but ARE in the body by virtue of God's grace... and I could go into more detail..."
Not to argue, only for the record... (and to show that CGCM is opposed to the teachings Menno SImons and Dirk Philips in this regard.)
I believe that Calvary Chapel is a good example of a "church" today which is being led by dishonest and/or ignorant delusional people.
Ge 42:11* We are all one man’s sons; we are true men, thy servants are no spies.
U.mmm sounds like you Jerry, but no offense meant here and I sure don't want you tossing daggers at my unworthiness for pointing this out, but your vehemence tells me you are hiding something? I don't believe anyone here on the coG forum has been more deceitful about his own person, by making up new forum names and pretending to be a new person, than you. Now to give you credit you have apparently done better lately, but why do you expect any church leader to be more honest than you expect of yourself?
Now about the baptism and your "justin Martyr" his theology sounds like church of christ, they baptize by immersion in water to save people, so a conversion is the baptism.
There are literally thousands of different churches today because of NOTHING MORE than man's own personal opinions and interpretation of Scripture.
1Jo 2:27*according to jerry
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need that first century dead Christians teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, since others come up with variations you must learn at the feet of dead saints making a unity of belief and an unusual interpretation, which is no lie because they are confessed to have walked with the original apostles, and even as they hath taught you, ye shall abide in their theology.
>>>How do you figure water baptism into Acts 2:38?<<<
Although I believe Acts 2:38 is speaking of water baptism, I incorrectly stated previously that Acts 2:38 SAYS that sins are forgiven by WATER baptism. Acts 2:38 doesn't specfically mention the word "water". And neither does it specifically mention in Acts 2:38 that "the Baptism is referred to as being the one that fills with the Holy Ghost, not the one of water," as you stated.
38* Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Now it looks to me like the baptism got them the gift of the Holy Ghost as opposed to a wet swim suit, but maybe I am missing something?
_____
I believe that Acts 2:38 is speaking of the same baptism (which is for the forgiveness of sins) as in the following verse (which I also believe is referring to water baptism).....
"And now why do you delay? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name." (Acts 22:16)
This was of Paul athis conversion, he was told to be baptized, (no doubt with water) as a sign that he is following the Christ and is a member of the universal church outside of which is no salvation, and he was to wash away his sin by confession and forsaking it. How does dipping oneself in water make a person get rid of willful sin and the guilt it causes? Jerry that simply is not good doctrine, it is not right, for it covers sin! it allows unconfessed sin to reside in the hart and life.
____
Take another verse that you quoted.....
"one Lord, one faith, one baptism" (Eph. 4:5)
I also believe that that's referring to water baptism, and you do not. But it doesn't specifically say one way or the other.
I also believe that the following Scripture is referring to water baptism....
Mr 1:8* I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Ac 1:5* For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Ac 11:16* Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
If there is only one baptism according to EPH 4:5, which one is the greater, and which one the lesser? Water or the Holy Ghost?
_____
also believe that the following Scripture is referring to water baptism.....
"Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we toomight walk in newness of life" (Romans 6:3,4)
The baptism of the holy Ghost is a death to self wherein he fills the believer with his Spirit baptizing it with anointing of the Holy Ghost.
If you honestly think Col 3 is speaking of water, I honestly think you are deceived
3* For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
And Rom 6:3 -4 goes right in that verse like a kid glove.
I believe that the word "baptized" here is also referring to water baptism. I believe that the Holy Spirit is the One who effects with water the second birth.
Jerry, this line really jumped out at me. It seems (on the surface) to hint at an answer I've been looking for regarding the orthodox teaching on babtism. do you have some more early (or orthodox) writings you could suggest for further study on this specific subject?
The letter of BARNABAS is actually an anonymous early Christian writing which took upon the name Barnabas because some (but not all) believed that it was written by Barnabas, the fellow worker with the apostle Paul. The letter of "Barnabas" was written before the writings of Hermas. "Barnabas" said,
"Blessed are they who, placing their trust in the cross, have gone down into the water.....we indeed descend into the water full of sins and defilement, but come up, bearing fruit in our heart, having the fear and trust in Jesus in our spirit." (The letter of "Barnabas," chapter 11)
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HERMAS, whose writings were before those of Justin, said,
"There is no other repentance than that which takes place, when we descended into the water and received remission of our former sins." (The Shepherd/Pastor, book 2, commandment 4, chapter 3) and,
"Before a man bears the name of the Son of God he is dead; but when he receives the seal, he lays aside his deadness, and obtains life. The seal, then, is the water: they descend into the water dead, and they arise alive. And to them, accordingly, was this seal preached, and they made use of it that they might enter into the kingdom of God." (The Shepherd/Pastor, book 3, similitude 9, chapter 16)
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JUSTIN, who was put to death for the faith, and whose writings were before those of Irenaeus and Theophilus, said,
"I will also relate the manner in which we dedicated ourselves to God when we had been made new through Christ; lest, if we omit this, we seem to be unfair in the explanation we are making. As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.....And for this we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the WATER the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe.....And in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Ghost, who through the prophets foretold all things about Jesus, he who is illuminated is washed." (The First Apology Of Justin, chapter 61),
and,
"And this food is called among us the Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined." (The First Apology Of Justin, chapter 65)
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IRENAEUS, who was taught by Polycarp (a disciple of the apostles), said,
"And [Naaman] dipped himself, says [the Scripture], seven times in Jordan. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new born babes, even as the Lord has declared: Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Irenaeus, Fragment 34)
and,
"And when we come to refute them [the Gnostics], we shall show in its fitting place, that this class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole faith." (Irenaeus Against Heresies, book 1, chapter 21)
and,
Giving to the disciples the power of regeneration into God, He said to them, "Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." (Irenaeus Against Heresies, book 3, chapter 17)
and,
He [Peter] also bare witness to them that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, the Judge of quick and dead, into whom he did also command them to be baptized for the remission of sins. (Irenaeus Against Heresies, book 3, chapter 12)
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THEOPHILUS, who was the sixth bishop from the apostles over the church in Antioch, and who lived and wrote during the same time as Irenaeus, said,
"Moreover, the things proceeding from the waters were blessed by God, that this also might be a sign of men's being destined to receive repentance and remission of sins, through the water and laver of regeneration, as many as come to the truth, and are born again, and receive blessing from God." (Theophilus to Autolycus, book 2, chapter 16)
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>>>I don't believe anyone here on the coG forum has been more deceitful about his own person, by making up new forum names and pretending to be a new person, than you.<<<
I believe that there's a time to have fun, and a time to be serious. I was having fun, that's all. And I also eventually let everyone know that it was me who had been posting using a different name. If anyone doesn't like it, then that's just too bad.
Fred, are you still watching those movies (that you either rent or buy) with the nudity in them and claiming that there's nothing wrong with doing that?
Did the same "spirit" who taught you that it's ok to watch your nudie flicks also teach you your Gnostic heretical beliefs about baptism and the flesh of Christ?
You don't even have the basics down, Fred.
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Fred and millions of other people today claim that "the Holy Spirit" has led and guided them into this or that truth.....and then they all somehow come up with different and conflicting truths that "the Holy Spirit" had supposedly led and guided them into.
Is it really that diffiCULT for someone to see that there's something wrong with the picture here?
The fact of the matter is that Fred and millions of other people today are simply delusional (delusion: a persistent false belief held in the face of strong contradictory evidence especially as a symptom of psychiatric disorder).
The "Freds" of this age are merely swallowing the bologna and drinking the kool-aid of their false teachers and then delusionally claiming that "the Holy Spirt" taught them the nonsense that they have gullibly fallen for.
This message has been edited by UncleRemus. on Jul 15, 2008 7:48 AM
So are all the other deceivers, Practice having fun, and see who is gullible and when pressure hits you say as spoken in the proverb,
Pr 26:19 So is the man that deceiveth his neighbour, and saith, Am not I in sport?
Jerry, just to set the record straight, I do not think Christian people should watch porn, I consider it not only wrong but also sin, and very addictive. I do not watch, or imbibe in watching porn, and havent for years. How about you?
Sorry if that shocks you.
As far as watch movies that have naked people, I must admit I have seen several movies such as "into the wild" and if the story line is good enough the naked pictures skipable enough, I may finish the move such as I did with that one, but for the most part I watch silly children s movies and clean pg's I particularly like cody banks, Holes, second hand lions and such like.
But you put a lot of faith in the forefathers faith, and must trust the interpretors of their writings, and also trust they are not of the group that Paul warned us about in
Ac 20:29* For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
I personally do not find that dipping in the water washes away willful transgression, to me that is "easy beleivism"
Fred and millions of other people today claim that "the Holy Spirit" has led and guided them into this or that truth.....and then they all somehow come up with different and conflicting truths that "the Holy Spirit" had supposedly led and guided them into.
______
Just like you claim that they Holy Spirit has led you to believe the early fathers writings, and as such discount the alleged millions of others peoples right to do as their conscience dictates.
Don't get me wrong though, I read the forfathers and if they are right I agree, but if the bible goes one way, and they go the other, I simply do not trust them, or their interpretors, and that is why I don't trust you.
Jerry, I don't want to play holdeman type mind games including "pin the legal words on the chump" with you okay? Go play pin the words with yourself.
You know you ought to seek out a friend that at least pretends to be a christian and do something nice for him beside trying to be his discerner of truth.
Edited to make meaning simple for the filthy minded
This message has been edited by bawar on Jul 15, 2008 4:56 PM
>>I read the forfathers and if they are right I agree, but if the bible goes one way, and they go the other, I simply do not trust them, or their interpretors, and that is why I don't trust you<<
With all due respect, Fred, what makes your interpretation the valid one?
>>>Jerry one usually casts blame on others for things he does in secret, like i asked earlier, do you care to openly confess your sin?<<<
You're the one who confessed to me on the telephone that you don't see anything wrong with watching the movies with nudity in them, and that you did so.
Know what I mean, pervert?
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I can just imagine seeing towel head Fred raising his hands up in the air and "praising the Lord" at Calvary Chapel, and then going home to watch his nudie flicks.
It seems to me that if you give the water the literal meaning and basis for washing away our sins then you run the risk of beginning to worship the water more than the Spirit of the sacrament. Kind of like the Holdeman have in that they think their water or ways of baptism are better because they have put the emphasis on the water too much.
>>So I'll take my chance on the bible being right,<<
That should actually read "So I'll take my chance on MY INTERPRETATION OF the bible being right" because while your reading of the scriptures brings you to certain conclusions, others can (and have) read the same scriptures and come to other conclusions.
You know, the one where you said that I had fallen from grace.
Well, there you go revealing your own lack of knowledge of the Scriptures again.
But what else is new?
Uh, you might want to throw up some of that bologna and kool-aid that Calvary Chapel has been feeding you and actually go and see what the BIBLE says it means to fall from grace (not that that means you will actually believe it just because God says it).
That should actually read "So I'll take my chance on MY INTERPRETATION OF the bible being right" because while your reading of the scriptures brings you to certain conclusions, others can (and have) read the same scriptures and come to other conclusions.
Are you saying you do it differently Steven? the bible
(in my opinion) is a personal book and is meant for the individual not the group, and individuals are the priests of their own destiny.
SO yes you are right I will take my chances on my interpretation of the bible to be my guide proper living.
Jerry, I don't know what exactly you think about "Calvary Chapel' or why, but you will find a link at the top of the forum and that has a link to my preacher's sunday morning sermons. If you think he is teaching koolaid, he has an email, and I invite you to reprove him personally, if he refuses to answer you let me know and I'll remove the link from the forum.
I have nothing to do with the Calvary Chapel, I'm not a member, and they do not have me in any office, it is the best place for me to go this week, the other choice is the holdies which hate me, a Nazarene church and a CLC, or no church which I presume is the one you go to, and that is not a very family orientated option.
My friend Fred, with all due respect, I can't count the times you, as well as nameless "others", have held posters' feet to the fire over the very same "pin the legal words on the chump" principle; have held posters' feet to the fire over some jot or tittle on their post until the whole point was lost or they were too frustrated to continue. In fact, I caught the very same thing Jerry did, and wondered if he would pounce on it. Now it happens to you, and instead of backing up and rescinding your accusation like a big boy, you go ballistic and call it "Holdeman type mind games" Well. it may be a "holdeman game", but you have been playing it for a long time, Fred, and you are better at it than any Holdeman. So what's it gonna be? Are you going to keep playing "pin the legal words on the chump" when it suits your agenda? Seems kinda dumb and childish when it gets pulled on you, doesn't it? Before you take this personal and gett all fried, remember you asked me to explain. Furthermore, I have more respect for your intelligence than to think you had no idea what I was talking about.
oh and by the way Axel, I am hardly ballistic, I enjoy the fight here, but I really am having a hard time figuring out why exactly it is happening.
The best I can tell is the baptism by certain of the early fathers is real important to jerry and since he cant get to the principles of the message by debate he needed to stoop to kicking the messenger.
After all if i sit in front of naked people movies and do as he accused me of, and if I go to a church on Sunday morning with other people that are "sinners" well that certainly proves God's word is wrong, doesn't it?
In case anyone hasn't noticed, I don't converse much with Fred on this forum. And the reason is because I really don't like wasting my time with deceptive idiots. And a good example of what I'm talking about is right here in front of us, folks. Fred said.....
>>>jerry...cant get to the principles of the message by debate he needed to stoop to kicking the messenger.<<<
Anyone with a normal brain can review the conversation between Fred and I on this thread and see where the "kicking the messenger" actually started. I maintained integrity in the conversation between Fred and I until he posted his idiotic accusations of me "divining truth by Necromancy" in his July 14, 2008 7:27 AM post. And so I had to speak to him in tongues (his own tongue). And then after I did so, the delusional one with the abnormal brain deceptively suggests that I am the one who is "kicking the messenger". How pathetic. Fred has a twisted mind, and that's why twisting things to make himself look "right" is the pattern of his ways.
The fact of the matter is that everything Fred believes regarding his faith came from a dead man because the whole Bible was written by men who are now dead. Even Fred's own belief that "the Holy Ghost" is revealing this or that truth to him is based upon what a dead man's writings proclaim. So, according to his own idiotic beliefs as stated in his July 14, 2008 7:27 AM post, he himself is "diving truth by necromancy".
Fred said.....
>>>After all if i sit in front of naked people movies and do as he accused me of,<<<
I got my information right from Fred's own lips in a past telephone conversation, folks. If he denies it, then that would be due to the fact that he's a liar.
>>>I had a very legitimate question in diving truth by dead men instead of the living bible<<<
No you didn't, Fred. That was just your usual abnormal loose screw voodoo/withcraft/divination talk that you so often resort to when you can't adequately defend your position.
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Fred said.....
>>>I really would like to know why it is not necromancy<<<
Like I already said, folks.....
The fact of the matter is that everything Fred believes regarding his faith came from a dead man because the whole Bible was written by men who are now dead. Even Fred's own belief that "the Holy Ghost" has revealing this or that truth to him is based upon what a dead man's writings proclaim. So, according to his own idiotic beliefs as stated in his July 14, 2008 7:27 AM post, he himself is "diving truth by necromancy".
So, it is actually ME who would like to know why FRED is not "diving truth by necromancy"?
Jerry, don't you think there is a big difference between watching a good movie that might happen to have brief nudity and watching porn? (I think that's what Fred was talking about.)
Fred, I think you might be a little far out with the necromancy thing. At least I sure don't see the connection with authors who have died and conjuring up dead people!
And as far as orthodoxy goes, my studying and thinking has been in that area as well for the last year or so. It seems that the more my "liberal" philosophy evolves, the more the orthodox starts making sense and actually confirming many things that I thought were "new thinking"!
>>Steve believes what I'm saying, but that's because he and I are the only one's on the forum who represent Orthodox Christianity.<<
Thanks for the compliment. I think...
But seriously, while the fathers of the early church were human beings, capable of error, they do provide the best existing record of what the earliest Christians believed and taught. Christianity of course was still emerging as a religion in its own right, as opposed to an emerging sect within Judaism. But, when you have people like Justin, Ireneaus, Polycarp, Ignatius, etc., (some of whom were taught by the apostles) writing on things theological and you see a common pattern emerging and testimony that this is what they were taught by their mentors, it should give some cause for thought and perhaps a valid reason for not rejecting their writings.
What I am saying is that when it comes to what has historically been considered to be the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith, I would tend to give more credence to those who wrote the Bible and those who knew some of the writers of the Bible, than to the interpretation of someone 21 centuries later, reading a text that has been translated (often rather inaccurately) and coming to their own personal conclusions about what it says. I realise this may not be a logically defensible position, but it seems to me to be the better of those two options.
Fred, I think you might be a little far out with the necromancy thing. At least I sure don't see the connection with authors who have died and conjuring up dead people!
Peter, if you read the post it was posted not as a threat, or an insult, Jerry blew it way out
Re: baptism
July 14 2008, 7:27 AM
So, you say "this" and I say "that".
But what does the "course of performance" say?
Jerry, if you follow a dead man into eternal life, are you not divining truth by Necromancy?
What I mean is, if you read the bible and allow the Holy Ghost to reconcile the Meaning, then the living God is the diviner, and then the divine, but if you see two ways, and you allow the engraved words of a dead man to tip the scales of your understanding, how is that not diving truth by necromancy?
This message has been edited by bawar on Jul 14, 2008 7:27 AM
How am I accusing him of necromancy? I am asking a simple question regarding how to divine truth, and get insulted instead of a decent answer. He didn't have to insult me, all he had to do is say nothing or give a decent answer like Steven just did.
At any rate, I apologize for coming off with a "far out" idea and appreciate your words Peter.
Steven; you do make sense with your comments. I will read up on what David Bercot says regarding baptism and post more. He is very into the early church writings and (I believe) is careful not to deviate from their positions. A quick quote from Bercot:
"Interestingly, we evangelicals seem to recognize the need for some type of initiation ceremony or rite of passage to mark the Christian rebirth. But strangely enough, we have generally rejected the historical ceremony of the baptismal rebirth and developed our own special ceremony-- the alter call."
quote corrected.
This message has been edited by Aaronsboy on Jul 16, 2008 7:28 PM
>>>Jerry, don't you think there is a big difference between watching a good movie that might happen to have brief nudity and watching porn? (I think that's what Fred was talking about.)<<<
Yes, I believe there's a big difference between the two. I never mentioned a word about porn. Yes, I also believe that Fred is referring to movies with brief nudity in them, and he made that clear to me in the telephone conversation we had. The only reason why I even brought this kind of stuff into the conversation is because as far as I'm concerned, Fred ended any kind of legitimate debate when he went off on his divination routine and turned it into mud slinging.
Jerry, one thing I've learned about you on this forum is that you reaaaally don't like to be called down or have accusations (especially about the past) thrown your way.
I actually thought you kept it (pretty much) under control this time! And Fred's a big boy, he can handle a lot.
"Interestingly, we evangelicals seem to recognize the need for some type of initiation ceremony or rite of passage to mark the Christian rebirth. But strangely enough, we have generally rejected the historical ceremony of the baptismal rebirth and developed our own special ceremony-- the alter call."
Hank that one really caught my eye.
Have you noticed how many rituals evangelicals have "borrowed" from the liturgical churches?
Jerry, one thing I've learned about you on this forum is that you reaaaally don't like to be called down or have accusations (especially about the past) thrown your way.
Steven; I meant to say your reasoning sounds sensible... I guess I have my pet idea(s) about baptism, however, I have given my opinion in the past that God recognizes one's honest heartfelt desire after Him, rather then that we get all our theology and symbolic worship absolutely right.
Briefly, here is some things Bercot says in "Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up:
1. John 3:5; "... unless one is born of the water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven." The early church believed to be "...born of the water..." referred to water baptism. Page 77
2. The early church fathers believed water baptism cancelled past sins, and they referred to baptism as "grace".
3.Water baptism imparted "clearer vision" of spiritual matters; not necessarily receipt of the Holy Spirit, but Bercot suggests some connection. page 79 (This is somewhat in line with what John Holdeman taught.)
4. This one brings me back to my understanding... Bercot says the early Christians did NOT separate baptism from faith and repentance. Baptism wasn't some magical ritual that could regenerate a person if it wasn't accompanied by faith and repentance. They specifically taught that God was under no necessity to grant forgiveness of sins simply because a person went through the motions of baptism. A faithless person was NOT reborn through water baptism. Page 80
5. About unbaptized persons, Bercot says early Christians never put God in a box; they always believed that God would do what was loving and just towards pagans who had never had the opportunity to hear about Christ; also babies and those who believed but died before baptism, were not abandoned by God. "So, although early Christians stressed the significance of baptism and its role in the new birth, they didn't portray God as a cold, inflexible Being who could work in no other way." page 81
In addition to my earlier quote about "alter call", Bercot says: "Since we feel the need to associate our spiritual rebirth with a fixed day and hour why don't we tie it to baptism, rather then to the alter call." (I just wish to comment that I do not advocate knowing the exact day and time... and Bercot's comments seem to suggest that I rethink my view on baptism.)
Bercot quotes 5-6 of the common early fathers previously mentioned on this thread.
Hank - interesting comments. There are a few things that come to mind in reading that post. I may not have time to elaborate on them for a day or two, but I'll try to come back to them when I do.
I didn't look deep into all the t points, but the first one caught my eye after I read it,
1. John 3:5; "... unless one is born of the water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven." The early church believed to be "...born of the water..." referred to water baptism. Page 77
4* Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5* Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6* That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
The water there is without question a reference to the bag of waters one is born out of, How can they say it was referencing water baptism?
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