Hank, you have missed the point.

I wrote >>These are all changes from how the church was portrayed when I joined 15 years ago. My question is..are they on a downward spirial of changes heading into "the world"? Or did they deliberately paint a false picture in order to impress converts?<<

I have concluded that they lied, painting a false portrait of what values they hold, solely to impress and "win" outsiders. All of the things I have mentioned would not have been allowed back when I first joined. It is not such "things" which bother me...it's just that when someone preaches one thing and lives another that it makes them look like liars and hypocrits. However if standards have changed that much in the last 15 years, then my question about spirialing into the world head on applies.

Sorry for derailing from your point. I actually was not addressing you but was giving a birds-eye view of the issues you touched on.

However, several points:

1. I see the NT church evolving with the times; society changes and as this occurs the principles of Christ do not change but culture and the times move on. So, what you are addressing is it perhaps this ?

2. Say CGCM really are the OTVC at the exclusion of all others, and they find that they have over-stressed some areas of application of the gospel (maybe areas you see having changed from 15 years ago); do you not think that the Spirit of God would move the OTVC, to re-focus correctly on scripture ? and humbly make the changes to rejoice in more diversity ? and consequently you note the progress (or regress, depending on which side you view from) ?

3. Canadee; I appreciate your view of simple living, (even envy some of that life) but I separate that from your faith in Jesus Christ.

Hank, go look in the mirror and try to make eye contact.

You know exactly what C is saying and you are once again being slippery and dishonest trying to please your h cousins. This is where you get that nickname from.

humbly make the changes to rejoice in more diversity ?

Hank I couldn't agree with canadee more, they flat out lied to me, and when I held them to their keep their lies they wanted me out rather then they confessing they were indeed lies.

They are liars, and no willful liar has eternal life, God and all good men abhor lying, unless it is used to save life or limb, and even then it is still abhored, but perhaps less.

A humble apology would include, "yes we lied to you to get you in so we could steal your offspring and then kick you out after we got them"

"We had never any intention or reasonable idea that you would stay because statistics show 95% of the outsiders leave."

And they would at least also offer restitution of some sort.

Now this would not even be humble, the courts require this of convicted criminals,

Canadee, you will see many more of these 'things' come into play while the "love of many shall wax cold" and legalism is becoming more rampant and visible. A classic example is You Tube. I have never seen a group of people so obsessed with it. But with the legalistic mind, it is a way of enjoying video without breaking the "no TV" law. Yes, to outsiders it looks quite silly, but in the legalistic life it is the only way around the rules.

Hank, I also embrace the diversity and encourage the h to enjoy these diversions and have fun. However, I cannot understand why they then need to continue holding avoidance on people who were expelled for enjoying the "things" of life.

The double standards in holdemanism are hilarious to normal people and unseen to those who have given their hearts and minds to the church.

<<< Hank, go look in the mirror and try to make eye contact.

You know exactly what C is saying and you are once again being slippery and dishonest trying to please your h cousins. This is where you get that nickname from. >>>

Right on Peter? Disgusting!

Alright Peter & Steven; I guess I should use more words to describe what I believe. Your response to my comments (the way I meant them) says that you believe it is impossible for CGCM to change. Is this what you believe ? Is it impossible for them to have changed in 15 years where English riding for recreation is acceptable ? Secondly, it always was acceptable when I was growing up; and in Alberta they all rode "western"... including guns at their hips. At least my buddies there had them, and one of them shot himself in his big toe, if I remember correctly.

OK; number 2 has some sarcasm in it. Let me try again. Logic would tell us that if CGCM really is the all-inclusive church of the NT, then the Spirit of God is active and alive there, and moves them to make changes. The church would make such changes, without pride, and would humbly acknowledge that progress in understanding does occur. This would be a common H mindset.

Canadee, I'm sorry, I will bow out of this discussion. However, I do believe in a God who comes to the aide of such who trust in Him and believe that He exists. This is for Anglicans, RC, Baptists and Holdemans, Amish & 2x2s.

Your response to my comments (the way I meant them) says that you believe it is impossible for CGCM to change.

Hank, you should have been a preacher. (probably what you really wanted anyway)

Of course the h church changes. almost daily. Snowmobiles, boats, and vacation properties were acceptable too. And then suddenly NOT, and now they are. Cars used to need to be plain, now they have some of the nicest.

Things, things, things, and rules have to change to keep up with the whims (and needs) of the staff.

The lying and deceit comes into play when they condemn to hell and hold avoidance on people who were kicked out for the same THINGS that are now deemded acceptable.

And Hhank, of course God is found and dwells withing individuals anywhere and everywhere. You are using slippery words to twist others words and make yourself acceptable to your "friends". This is the exact same thing the h do everyday; using a skin of truth stuffed with subversive untruths. "we don't have ANY policy on dress; our sisters CHOOSE to dress in this way"

Hank, with all the changes, you could probably be reaccepted and still keep your boat! Almost tempting isn't it?

I see I get mentioned on this thread without even having written on it.

Peter: Excellent posts (especially the last one).

>>Of course the h church changes. almost daily. Snowmobiles, boats, and vacation properties were acceptable too. And then suddenly NOT, and now they are. Cars used to need to be plain, now they have some of the nicest.<<

No kidding! My dad got all kinds of flak for having, or wanting to have, some of the things that are now totally acceptable and commonplace in Holdeland.

>>Things, things, things, and rules have to change to keep up with the whims (and needs) of the staff.<<

Again. Bingo! Suddenly when the ministers and deacons and higher ranking laity wanted some of the things my dad would have liked to have had, God changed his mind and now they're all ok. Funny thing is, my dad doesn't even have most of those things now.

>>The lying and deceit comes into play when they condemn to hell and hold avoidance on people who were kicked out for the same THINGS that are now deemded acceptable.<<

And that, is the one of the most demonic and dastardly things about this whole sordid mess.

>>Hank, with all the changes, you could probably be reaccepted and still keep your boat!<<

Quite true. And, I bet that if you gave a few generous donations to the missions program, maybe to the Holdeman personal care facilities, or towards a fancy new church building, you'd be allowed to keep pretty much everything else you might want. Heck, all that, and you could even go down to Arizona for the winter (for health reasons OF COURSE!) and fellowship with the 'brathren' down there.

I was visiting with a friend of mine the other day regarding why it is that what is sin seems to change with the times. His explanation, and I think this would be the opinion of most Holdemans, was that some things are not right for us when they are on the leading edge, but later they are ok when they are no longer on the leading edge. For example, four wheel drive pickups are acceptable now (but apparently weren't at first). When that rule was made, 4 wheel drive trucks were highly esteemed among men. Now they are not, so the witness to the world (and temptation to be proud) would be different.

I think this type of thinking is what is behind some of the things that have been mentioned on this thread.

Last Thanksgiving I was talking to an older H deacon. I point blank asked him why we don't hear much about vehicles these days compared to when I was a teenager. These were his words "oh, we lost that game!" He said it with a smile on his face

>>Last Thanksgiving I was talking to an older H deacon. I point blank asked him why we don't hear much about vehicles these days compared to when I was a teenager. These were his words "oh, we lost that game!" He said it with a smile on his face.<<

See, here's the thing. While the 'staff' have 'lost that game', there are still people out there who are still having the avoidance held on them for having things or participating in things that WERE against the rules but now have the Holdestamp of Approval (It's what 'our people' are doing these days, you know).

These people get stuck at separate tables at family dinners, are socially avoided, and to top it all off have been cursed by 'being handed over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh'. So, now that the game has been lost and the rules have been changed, I'm thinking the punishment for breaking the old rules should be stopped.

No, they will never stop punishing because the rules change. They are punishing for disobedience. You know good and well it has NOTHING to do with the legality or acceptability of particular item, but is ONLY about obedience to the Church. So when the Church changes, you change, period! It doesn't make a hill of beans that chrome wheels were illegal then, but are legal now. Bottom line is, when the Church says it is illegal, you don't have them...and when it changes it's mind, then go get them. CGCM is quite progressive regarding "things", at least from an analbaptist point of view, but they cannot and will not tolerate any "will" in the people.

Scott. I agree with your post. It has dick all to do with chrome and shadow beards.

I noticed your spelling "analbaptist". I would like to reprove you for a lack of respect and decorum. It is improper to make fun of Gods people.

Dale

Dale, please accept my heart-felt apology. It was a Freudian-slip to be sure...and I hope your delicate sensibilities and fragile emotional constitution can recover from my crassness, ...and I too for one can say that I too just want to do my little part, and it is indeed a pleasure to be here this evening, gathered together with god's true people, while those out on the cold mountain bare are freezing their arses off, and you would have to be one of us to understand, and if we aren't the OTVC, then where is it, and did it really happen that way, and I wasn't making fun of God's people, but lo, perhaps I had a few others in mind...

>>Last Thanksgiving I was talking to an older H deacon. I point blank asked him why we don't hear much about vehicles these days compared to when I was a teenager. These were his words "oh, we lost that game!" He said it with a smile on his face.<<


Well, now I can go buy that new red Cadillac! Lol! (I wonder why they didn't announce that in the last conference? Hmmm?)Any changes need to be made in conference.

>>The lying and deceit comes into play when they condemn to hell and hold avoidance on people who were kicked out for the same THINGS that are now deemded acceptable<<

Oh my forum brothers, you misunderstand. You are never kicked out for THINGS. It's the spurrit that caused you to WANT the things that gets your jugular snipped.

cupcake, could you email me please?