Dear Convert,
This little pamphlet has been prepared to help you to understand better God's wonderful plan of salvation and the commitment you will make when you are baptized. As you know, the promises you will make are for life. If you keep them faithfully you will be happy in this life as God's child. But best of all, you can look forward to a wonderful home in heaven when this life is over.
Following are the questions the minister will ask when you are baptized. Read them carefully and prayerfully. Then take your Bible and look up the references following each question. This will help you to understand the questions and how to answer them when the minister baptizes you.

God as Father and Creator
1. Do you believe in one true, eternal and almighty God, who is the Creator and Preserver of all things, visible and invisible? Isaiah 46:9 Genesis 1:1

Jesus as Son and Saviour
2. Do you believe in Jesus Christ, as the only begotten Son of God, that He is the Saviour of mankind, that he died upon the cross as a ransom for our sins, and that through Him we have eternal life.? Psalm 2:7 John 3:16

Holy Spirit as Comforter and Guide
3. Do you believe in the Holy Ghost which proceeds from the Father, that He is an abiding Comforter who comforts us when we do right, and reproves us when we do wrong, and guides us into all truth? John 14:16-17 16:13

Confession of Faith in the Blood of Christ upon Repentance
4. Do you believe that you have realized your lost state and condition, and upon true repentance, confession of your sins, and faith in Christ Jesus, you have remission of sins and have received the new birth and peace with God? Isaiah 53:6 John 1:7-9

Commitment to Christ and the Church
5. Are you now resolved to forsake the world with all its lusts, deny yourself, take up your cross and follow the Lord Jesus Christ, being obedient to Him and His Church, as long as you live? Luke 5:11 Matthew 16:24

Bearing Responsibility in the Church
6. Do you promise to love the brotherhood, and to exercise care and concern for the spiritual welfare of your brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus, and to accept the same from them?
Are you willing to reprove your spiritual brethren when you see them do wrong, and are you also willing to accept reproof from them? Matthew 18:15-20

7. Is it your desire to be baptized?

To be a Christian is the most rewarding and happy life that a person can live. It is true that Christians have troubles in life, but Jesus said, "Lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world." It is the will of God that you not only have forgiveness of sins and receive baptism, but that you also grow in grace and wisdom in spiritual matters.
It will be very important for you as a new convert to be obedient to the Holy Spirit. If and when you fail or should be overtaken in sin, come to Jesus in true repentance: He has promised to cleanse you anew. To prevent Satan from overcoming you repeatedly, talk to some Christian parent or minister. Don't be afraid; they will help you and even pray for you. This is what makes for spiritual fellowship and helps you to grow.
Make a daily habit of secret prayer; alter the time of day and place of prayer so that Satan will not make you feel mechanical. Pray as you would talk to your best friend. Tell Jesus how much you love Him, and don't be afraid to tell Him how bad you are when you fail; He knows it anyway.
Spend time with your Bible. You may not understand everything you read, but feel free to ask questions. Remember the Bible contains God's will for man, and the more we love Him the more interested we are in His Word.
Be ready to speak to some unconverted friend about the joys of being a Christian. They, too, have a burden on their heart and need someone to encourage them. Jesus said one time, "Ye are my witnesses." "If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them" (John 13:17)

6. Do you promise to love the brotherhood, and to exercise care and concern for the spiritual welfare of your brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus, and to accept the same from them?
Are you willing to reprove your spiritual brethren when you see them do wrong, and are you also willing to accept reproof from them? Matthew 18:15-20

Is this one newer? I don't remember that being part of baptism when I was around the h.

1. Do you believe in one true, eternal and almighty God, who is the Creator and Preserver of all things, visible and invisible? Isaiah 46:9 Genesis 1:1 NO

Jesus as Son and Saviour
2. Do you believe in Jesus Christ, as the only begotten Son of God, that He is the Saviour of mankind, that he died upon the cross as a ransom for our sins, and that through Him we have eternal life.? Psalm 2:7 John 3:16 NO

Holy Spirit as Comforter and Guide
3. Do you believe in the Holy Ghost which proceeds from the Father, that He is an abiding Comforter who comforts us when we do right, and reproves us when we do wrong, and guides us into all truth? John 14:16-17 16:13 NO

Confession of Faith in the Blood of Christ upon Repentance
4. Do you believe that you have realized your lost state and condition, and upon true repentance, confession of your sins, and faith in Christ Jesus, you have remission of sins and have received the new birth and peace with God? Isaiah 53:6 John 1:7-9 NO

Commitment to Christ and the Church
5. Are you now resolved to forsake the world with all its lusts, deny yourself, take up your cross and follow the Lord Jesus Christ, being obedient to Him and His Church, as long as you live? Luke 5:11 Matthew 16:24 NO

Bearing Responsibility in the Church
6. Do you promise to love the brotherhood, and to exercise care and concern for the spiritual welfare of your brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus, and to accept the same from them? NO
Are you willing to reprove your spiritual brethren when you see them do wrong, and are you also willing to accept reproof from them? Matthew 18:15-20 NO

7. Is it your desire to be baptized? NO

Sirus,

Why do you state "No" to these questions? Do you not believe in God anymore? Are you being sarcastic? What?

When I read this I thought,"Oh great! This actually sounds pretty acurate Scripturally!" Knowing what I know that some of it actually means I don't agree with it, but to a very gullible and easily swayed young woman that doesn't see (or want to believe) the negative side of the H system, this would all be very convincing.

Her former baptism (believer's baptism)had a few similar comments/questions...but not the rebuke and faithful to the church th ing. Just faithful to Jesus Christ. In fact, it was stated clearly that she was NOT being baptised into a CHURCH but into the body of Christ (universal).I'm not sure where these wires got crossed!

Thank you for going to the effort of passing this covenant out:)

Mel's Mom

I find it interesting more and more how big of a deal Holdemans make of baptism. Those are a lot of questions to go through and if there are 10 'converts' (together with listening to their experiences) that is quite a big deal just to have a few drops of water poured on your head. I wonder how 3000 people could have gone through that in one day. In the church I go to, they only ask one question, something to the effect if they believe in Jesus and have decided to follow Him. The question is not a 'form' question that has to be read from a book and the wording is different every time - possibly incorporating the individuals testimony (which was heard/seen on video earlier) into it. The actual baptism is the celebration - not a ceremony leading up to it.

**And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.**

>>Sirus, Why do you state "No" to these questions? Do you not believe in God anymore<< No.

>>Are you being sarcastic? What?<< Somewhat.

MM, which would you rather have, a son like me or a daughter like Mel?

http://www.network54.com/Forum/419882/thread/1208227454/My+Beliefs

Sirius,

<WOuld you rather have a son like me, or a daughter like Mel?>

Good question. I have never talked to a REAL atheist. I've talked to a few who have been extremely disillusioned. My brother has a friend who is an atheist...his father was a pastor all his life and put the congregation as a priority and I guess did not live a consisent godly life at home...let me guess???Anger probably? Most P.K.'s get turned off because their pastor fathers say one thing behind the pulpit and live another at home. My husband was a pastor and it easily becomes this way. The key is humility and transparency. Like "God is teaching me this truth, I have not perfected it, but He is working on me..." Instead of appearing like it's all perfected in us.

I can see how a person could get completely disillusioned with God. My husband was almost there. He was really disappointed with the 'Christians" in church leadership...the backbiting, lies, etc. He is in the process of really finding out who God is and that He is who He says He is. Too often the problem is that we come to Him with our own agendas and expect results-leaning on our own understanding. We went through a tape series on the attributes of God and were quite inspired. But, yes, I understand what your testimony/poem said...my heart goes out to you.

Would I rather have you or Mel? I think both have their sad side. I would grieve for you equally as I grieve for her. She is an innocent young woman who is very gullible...not extremely firm in what she believes (contrary to what Grace said in A Disturbing Story.) My heart bleeds for the pain that she may encounter someday as she sees friends shunned...eventually her husband excommunicated (if she gets married in there)...the pull to be loyal to her husband above any church leader (as we have taught her) and the vows she made to the church. Yet if she gave up on God and did not believe in Him at all anymore...I would also grieve for her. But I would have more hope. God has a way of meeting with people on their journey of life...surprise visits! Without a religion in the way blocking their view of God, without all the baggage...it would be much easier to be rescued and to find the ONE TRUE GOD than in Religion!!! In other words, YOU have more hope then she does!!!

Mel's Mom

What an absolute miserable, negative mom! To be publicly saying this junk and wishing her daughter was an athiest is pretty low. I don't know this Mel, but my admiration for her STRENGTH is growing. She must be a strong person to have left such forceful control.

Woah! You must have misunderstood what I was saying.

Melanie is my daughter whom I love very much. She herself has told us often how gullible she is. She has always believed people for what was said. Too bad this world is so corrupt and we CAN"T trust people as we should be able to. It would be GREAT if we all were continually trustworthy. I'm not saying she is a floppy noodle. No way! When she makes up her mind she CAN be pretty FIRM...yet, the honey coated words and presuadingly friendly demise of the leaders here were very alluring...

Sirius asked me who I'd rather have. I wouldn't trade my daughter as a person for anyone, but the situation she is in could end up being hurtful to her. I grieve for her and yet I see much hope as so few 'outsiders' actually stay blinded very long.

<My heart bleeds for the pain that she may encounter someday as she sees friends shunned...eventually her husband excommunicated (if she gets married in there)...the pull to be loyal to her husband above any church leader (as we have taught her) and the vows she made to the church.>

I was told this would be very likely to happen many times by X H's and have seen the results myself. So if this sounds negative, I'm sorry...maybe realistic is more accurate.

<Yet if she gave up on God and did not believe in Him at all anymore...I would also grieve for her. But I would have more hope. God has a way of meeting with people on their journey of life...surprise visits! Without a religion in the way blocking their view of God, without all the baggage...it would be much easier to be rescued and to find the ONE TRUE GOD than in Religion!!! In other words, YOU have more hope then she does!!!>

By this I was NOT meaning SHE has no hope. To the contrary!! I believe she has lots of hope. She still loves our family VERY MUCH! I was actually meaning, Sirius has tons of hope. Seriously, religion blinds people. Even in our 1 year of homechurching...God used it to help us focus on Him again...Him ALONE...not relying on a church or program to keep our hearts in tune with Him. It was a hard year but beneficial in many ways. God couldn't have done what he did in our hearts as well if we had remained in an organized church with all the program distractions.

<What an absolute miserable, negative mom! To be publicly saying this junk and wishing her daughter was an athiest is pretty low. I don't know this Mel, but my admiration for her STRENGTH is growing. She must be a strong person to have left such forceful control.>

I do NOT wish she was an athiest!!! I am glad she still has a heart to follow God...I just hope the religious aspect doesn't cloud her vision!!!

I didn't mean to come across negatively about Melanie, I tried to come across positively about Sirius. Please define 'forceful control'. She has made her choice. We hardly ever bring it up to her. She is free to discuss her life with us and does share many things. We are not trying to control her...she is in God's hands...we can't change her mind. That DOESN'T mean we are NOT concerned about the hurts and turmoil she could face...as this forum is totally full of examples of. I guess no one out there knows her as well as us and knows that she can be the sweetest most sensitive, compassionate individual...these people the ones with soft tender hearts...they are the ones that get hurt.

Unless you have a child such as this in these same circumstances...with the only hope of God to take them out or keep them safe in His arms...or have walked in our shoes...you can't understand.

Call it what you want...to me it's NOT CONTROL...it's being a Mom that CARES what happens to those you love. IF she were dying from cancer, I would pray and help were I could, were she'd want me to, I'd do whatever it would take to ease her pain and help her through...but we can only do what they want us to do...the rest we trust God for.

Mel's Mom

>>Commitment to Christ and the Church
5. Are you now resolved to forsake the world with all its lusts, deny yourself, take up your cross and follow the Lord Jesus Christ, being obedient to Him and His Church, as long as you live? Luke 5:11 Matthew 16:24<<

As i read the verses and the before and after verses, somehow I couldn't see anything where the church part came in. I couldn't even twist it in there. So what am I missing between the lines where the church part comes in this picture? Lockman

I haven't read the supporting verses, but if one is obedient to Jesus, what more do you need? Certainly seems to be elevating the institution to status of God by making the parallel mandate. But the CGiCM adds nothing to scripture, so how did this slip up occur?

Lockman, those scriptures talk of the deny self and following Christ part and then they just slip in the part about being true to the church but have no scripture to back that part up. I think they just hope people will trust them (and not actually read the scriptures) when they see a list of scriptures that those scriptures back up the vows. Too bad we exposed that. Now people will be begging for scripture to back up the faithful to Christ and His Church part. I can see those scriptures backing up being faithful to Christ (although there are plenty other scriputes they could use for that) but like you said, nothing is said about the church in those scriptures. Is there maybe some deceit used?

**And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.**

I read Mel's M. post and got a total different message then hick-up did. In fact, I felt that MM has mellowed since her first posting, and is more accepting today then before she got some input here. MM, your response should have put Hick-up in his place.

MM, if I was in your shoes I would not fear your daughters decisions in respect to her wanting to become a part of CGCM. They too are children of God and reconcile to Him the same way you and I do. Certain congregations may be out to lunch, but I believe ultimately that may change. Society has a way of correcting itself... and certainly God has a hand in it. Perhaps I feel this way about CGCM because I was a satisfied believer there and had a good upbringing, got a good biblical understanding, found a wonderful wife and have had a happy all around life, even when we had to move along.

Now, some here disagree with me. Perhaps that is because they consider me be be too "liberal" in my beliefs... that is that I look at one's honest desire to live after God/Christ. If that is evident in one's life, then you have to decide how much you want to sweat the smaller stuff in life. Jesus never abandons any believer who has an honest trust in the gospel and a desire to be a follower of Him. None are perfect, and all struggle with our sinful humanity including our less then perfect view of scripture and how it applies to mankind. This does not differ in H folks or you or me.

And so I wish to encourage you and your family. All things do not work out exactly as we plan or think they should. When we can trust our lives and outcome of our efforts to the perfect and loving providence of God, we can and will find inner peace in our lives. This has been my experience and I am sure you and your husband have experienced the same.

I was asked last week when I talked to a Bro in Law about what is happening in my life. and he asked me "Do the vows you gave mean nothing?" I knew I only wanted to follow God's leading and guiding, I had No idea what I had actually agreed to 49 plus years ago. Pardon me I should say I had an idea but this has brought out the wording much better. In fact I read it all and the supporting scriptures as well. And yes I have broken the vows in the past but I do know God has forgiven me. And I see nothing there that I together with God's strength do not want to live up to now. However the definition of Church is somewhat different than what the H people would have it.
Thank you all for your prayers.
Herman

Thanks for the encouragement Hank. Mel's father & I hope the best for her. She is coming over tonight..for night and the day tomorrow. I'm not sure why they allow her to have so much contact with us (3x's in one week)? or will they eventually curtail that?? Anyway, I'm thankful for the time I get...I can hardly wait!!

mel's mom

I don't quite understand where you are getting your ideas, Mel's mom. My family is not H and I am with them lots. I visit them, they visit me. I stay at their house, they stay at mine. We take vacations together. I get my picture taken in the family photo shoots. As of yet, over twenty years in contact with this church, I haven't heard anything about it from any H's. Do you think they will forbid her to have anything to do with you? I'm just not sure where you're coming from, or what you've been told (and are believing) about the Holdeman people that may not be true. My family may not agree with what I do and believe, but they have accepted me for who I am and what I have chosen to do with my life. That is the best thing they could have done, and shows their love for me. Yes, they will tell me when they think some things this church does is not right, but they have never tried to draw me away from it. Don't treat her any differently than you do any of your other children, love her for who she is, and support her (even if inwardly you don't agree) in the decisions she makes. She is now an adult, and we have to make our own choices in this world. If she finds out later she made a mistake, love will not be telling her "I told you so. You should never have done that." Wishing you peace in accepting Mel's decision.

>>Don't treat her any differently than you do any of your other children, love her for who she is, and support her (even if inwardly you don't agree) in the decisions she makes.<<

Easy there, pilgrim. Are you sure it’s the Holdeman Mennonites you’ve joined yourself up to? When did they become so liberal? Not that I care now, but I remember being treated differently when I made a decision to leave them.

I agree with your advice to MM on not treating Mel differently.

It sounds to me as though you’d better listen a little more carefully next time the Hs teach you how to avoid someone who has chosen to serve God some place else.

Sadly,there are the legalistic Mennonites, who will let you know often, that you are wrong... these are the ones who follow true form. (self-righteous)
Thankfully, there ARE the more kind hearted ones too... that will love you unconditionally and treat you like a human being... feelings count. They are a welcome treat in the confusion of "things" and judgement...