According to the Book of Acts, Chapter 17 verse 11, Paul of Tarsus and Silas preached at Berea, and the inhabitants "eagerly examined the scriptures every day to see whether these things were so", and many of them believed.
Aren't we called to be good Bereans? So how is it that a whole group of men would discourage it,,, ever!
I read the scriptures daily as well. I guarantee Fred's statement is accurate in my part of the world. You are fine as long as what you discuss is in accordance to conference rule. There is a conference decision that makes conference decisions mandatory, even if a decision contradicts a previous decision and the new decision completely ignores scripture. If you try to even discuss this you will be a marked man. I am a H member.
<<< So long as the study leads to an assurance that the conference is right it is okay,but woe betide the guy that hears a different tune and says so! They simply so punish anyone deviating their conference ideas that it is not worth looking for the truth. >>>
Now we all know that that is true, very true.
Now here comes TR, and he asserts:
<<< Fred, you present one mans opinion. I search the scriptures daily. By them I endeavor to live.>>>
Now his response to Fred is presented in the form of a rebuttal, but the careful reader will notice that he never actually rebuts what Fred is saying. In other words, the timing, rhythm, and cadence of TR's post is as a rebuttal, and the reader is left with the impression that he has rebutted Fred, but the actual wording doesn't even address Fred's point. This fascinates me. It suggest a spirit of dishonesty occuring even below the conscious awareness level of TR's mind. But the bottom line is TR's dishonesty staggers me because we all know that you may search the scriptures until you are blue in the face as long as you never find anything that disagrees with the conference.
This message has been edited by oldmanrip on Jul 28, 2008 6:32 PM This message has been edited by oldmanrip on Jul 28, 2008 6:32 PM This message has been edited by oldmanrip on Jul 28, 2008 6:30 PM
If TR were on "Dancing With The Stars", he'd win, hands down. I've yet to see anybody dance around the scriptures like TR. Never. A master at deception.
Come on guys; TR says he searches the scripture and lives by them. He also takes the teaching of "unity" seriously and for that he cannot be faulted. All I heard him say is that he lives as he understands the scriptures. What's wrong with that.
The opening post was of Acts 17:11, and posters started to indicate they did the same. But I have not heard Scott say whether he too is a Berean. No, he puts an intellectual spin on it and suggests others are being tricky.
Many will search the scriptures and not find the same thing. One thing that is a must is a willingness to let God speak. A willingness to look at things from a different view than what one has always concluded was God way. And when we read to prove something that we already are convinced of or support our beliefs what will we gain?
Fred: >>>deceptive little turds aren't they?>>>> This coming from the mouth of someone who just stated two days ago that he was quite soft and easy going. Fred, I am asking you to apologize for that statement!! Your credibility has taken a major hit in my mind in the last few days with your constant, unmerited, unsolicited judgement of anything H even to resorting to personal name calling. Come on, you can do better than that, can't you. All I can say Fred, I am deeply disappointed. If you represent the GREATER and BETTER christian way may God have mercy on all of the rest of us heathen! Yes, I am angry and I'm not ashamed of it either. FORREAL
I consider the behavior the H has done to my family completely contemptible, but forgivable, but they want to continue in it, so they are turds.
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<<< If you represent the GREATER and BETTER christian way may God have mercy on all of the rest of us heathen!>>>
That comment does not stretch me at all. Freds way is GREATER and BETTER, but Foreal, I doubt if you much care about intellectual honesty, or marriages ripped apart by avoidance, or ministerial intrusion into marriage, or preachers having authority over a man's wife, or enforced unity, or fear to speak from the heart, etc. etc. but only as long as the men speak in gentle loving tones, then to you, that is the Jesus Way. I'll take Fred's rough-cut honest way ten thousand times over your dishonest soft poisoness Holdeman way.
I'd say the term 'turds' could apply to the person making the types of statements that Fred was referring to, or it could apply to the statements themselves.
Whatever the case may be, I always find it rather ironic that certain individuals get their Hanes twisted up tighter than if they'd gotten them caught in a 1,000 RPM PTO shaft over a couple of rather inocuous words, all the while basically turning a blind eye, or expressing indifference, or even belittling or mocking, the pain and suffering that many of the contributors and readers of this forum have suffered due to the actions of COGICM Inc. and its minions.
Foreal, Stephen said it straight. If you choke on Fred calling TR a turd (did that really hurt the poor baby?), but you have not one word of protest for Steve's mother avoiding his father, which causes tremendous hurt, which violates natural law and decency, and refutes every scripture on marriage in the bible, then your self-assessment is correct, and you really are a turd and no man. Sorry, can't respect that one bit...detest it actually.
Maybe I am a turd for asking the question,,the question is,,,
Do the Holdeman let their congregants study the Scriptures ie,,be good Bereans,,, freely and without judgement and are they allowed to question the conference about the things they might disagree on?
Paris
If you really study the sciptures you will see things the way they do. I mean all there rules are based on the scriptures. I would also like to sell you a share in the Lions gate bridge.
Maybe I am a turd for asking the question,,the question is,,,
Do the Holdeman let their congregants study the Scriptures ie,,be good Bereans,,, freely and without judgement and are they allowed to question the conference about the things they might disagree on?
Lets not talk about the principles here, lets get bogged down on Fred's bad vocabulary.
Seriously Paris, if you ever speak on scripture that goes contrary to the holde-diana, you may well expect a vicious attack on your character in the next week but it will be about how you got excited as you explained what the Lord showed you, and the rumor ill be tht you had a bad spirit, or some other non issue, and if you don't put out the fire that the deceptive turds start against your character real quick, it will make the rounds and bite you, they are a busybody little people that really pick on Christians.
>>Many will search the scriptures and not find the same thing. One thing that is a must is a willingness to let God speak. A willingness to look at things from a different view than what one has always concluded was God way. And when we read to prove something that we already are convinced of or support our beliefs what will we gain?<<
Adiel asks: "What did you mean by this statement, Forreal: "Why do so many resist that search?" I find very few that are willing to think for themselves, most H get REAL nervous to throw away established bias and do a true search on their own. Quite often their search for Truth will revolve around, "The Mirror of Truth" or some of Menno Simon's writings and also "Bible Doctrine and Practice". This is just a perception and probably it is rooted in my own reluctance to be more open minded. What do you think? Fred asks: "Forreal, why don't you take one of the conference points and do a study on it so everyone here doesn't have to just see my side." I have been told to never argue with the man that is holding the microphone, I may applaud from time to time, jeer on occasion, sigh at other times, roll my eyes, throw things at my computer, but it is just simply too emotionally draining to get much deeper into the discussions here. Part of it is the lopsided structure of this forum. One H will post something a little contrary to the politically correct rules and everybody comes crawling out of the woodwork to chew his hide. That isn't honest discourse, that is gang rape. I don't have the time or the talent to take on almost everybody at once. My significant other feels I spend way too much time with trivial pursuits, and in some cases neglecting responsibilities. I tend to agree with her. Life is very busy and I find it rather amazing the volume of posts that some people generate! I hesitate at mortgaging my time for something that is not productive for me.
This message has been edited by twinspapa on Jul 28, 2008 9:05 PM
Standard response to scripture questioning....
"Well, when 18,000 people gather with God present and are in total unity on something..."
Voila, we have the power to override scripture.
yo yo, the preacher pulled that one on me many times, just about every time I would honestly question a belief he would end the conversation with the 18,000 at conference how could they be wrong?
If I answered him "because they are following the leader to the pit"he would get irate! In fact there is no way to answer him that isn't extremely rude. Isn't there a rule in etiquette to make a way of escape for the rival if he is your brother?
Just a little something I was thinking about this morning, maybe you two could give me your thoughts.
We Holdemans tend to disqualify things on this forum that are brought rudely/crudely or by rude people. Someone can post something, that if one can get beyond the rude comments or arrogant attitude, can make quite a bit of sense or challenge one to think a bit, but we throw it all out the window because we feel they have a wrong spirit or are "offended and bitter against the church". Apparently, here on cog forum, unless it is brought in just the right way, its illegitimate. Now, I wholly agree, there are people posting here that are hard to stomach, but does that negate all they have to say? We don't follow that course in the church. If a brother brings you a reproof in the 'wrong spirit" do you immediately throw it out? If the ministers sit you down and "overreach" you, do you believe that negates their concerns? Thats not how we operate, guys. So why is it so easy to ignore someone's thoughts here because of how they are brought? Are we scared they might actually be right, and finding something wrong with the messenger is our only defense?
AnonH, what you say is true, now consider this. Just how much of the rudeness and vulgarity on this forum is a back-lash of total disgust and repulsion that we feel for crushing Church authority and abuse parading as a soft gentle "loving way"? Once I saw that good and proper, a soft, gentle way that was never clear, never direct, always beat around the bush, hiding in the indistinct, this became so repulsive to me that in response, it gives me great pleasure to be clear and direct. I hate that soft indistinct way which disguises the reality of an unbelievable fascist authority, Church worship, and spiritual pride.
What I'm saying is that I bet Fred doesn't walk down main street calling other groups whores, and I don't either. CGCM, pushed their luck, went beyond the pale, passed the tipping point, and now we are pissed. It is so sad, that not only is CGCM's treatment of the human soul beyond the pale of Christ's teachings, but it is beyond the pale of common human decency.
And it is 100% the fault of you castrated Church men of the laity who sit in the pews, afraid to speak out, afraid to protest, meek as lambs, laundering your support of abuse of souls through the laundromat of submission to Church authority. Great, you console yourself that you need to submit one to another and to the Church as you witness people getting reamed by the ministry. It is not the preachers fault. Why? Because men are always reaching for power. It is your fault. It is the fault of the rank-file. The ministers would not do what they do without your collective support. Every man in the benches, it is YOUR fault. I cannot comprehend how you can go home and face your wife and call yourself a man. CGCM's MO is so defiled, that to me, it is my greatest pleasure and opportunity as a man to stand up, call a spade a spade, and be summarily heaved out on my ear. "the only thing necessary for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing".
This message has been edited by oldmanrip on Jul 30, 2008 11:02 AM This message has been edited by oldmanrip on Jul 30, 2008 10:56 AM
We Holdemans tend to disqualify things on this forum that are brought rudely/crudely or by rude people.
I do decide to exit a conversation with anyone that cannot bridle their tongue, especially when they go on to self justification over such things, whether on or off this forum, and I’m not really ashamed of that. Should I be? I do very much respect a couple people for refraining from lustful and vengeful talk, even if they don’t agree with me or I with them. Hank would be a good example.
But for the record, I do think a “Snopes” for more than just emails on this site would probably be a good thing. Most of what is posted here has a pretty strong bias against the CGCM. That does not mean that some of the things posted aren’t true, but it does mean that they are magnified and construed in such a way as to get the reader on the side of the poster, and what is posted doesn't reflect the real heart of the matter (for the record, I expect some flack for that statement, and thats OK, it doesn't change my view). I do understand quite well why. I’ve been there myself. But what of it?
Someone can post something, that if one can get beyond the rude comments or arrogant attitude, can make quite a bit of sense or challenge one to think a bit, but we throw it all out the window because we feel they have a wrong spirit or are "offended and bitter against the church".
What would you be referring to? Maybe you can help me out? What am I throwing out the window?
Apparently, here on cog forum, unless it is brought in just the right way, its illegitimate.
You know this statement is true, and can be applied from more than one perspective, yes? I made a statement above, and it didn’t go over very well, because I didn’t bring it in “just the right way” (i.e. I wasn’t quite negative enough about the CGCM), did you notice that? I did. No offense here though, I knew full well it wouldn't, and that's OK.
So why is it so easy to ignore someone's thoughts here because of how they are brought? Are we scared they might actually be right, and finding something wrong with the messenger is our only defense?
Subject to my opening statement of this post, the way it is brought has less to do with it than whether or not I think it is true. I disagree with Fred, and he responded by calling me a contemptible person. Perhaps he was worried I may be right? Just maybe?
Anon H I have been trying to tell H that very thing for years.. but It falls on deaf ears totally because It comes from Me an EX of such a rebelious reputation that I cannot be taken seriously. Why would she have anything to say to us, she is just OFFENDED? I cannot tell you the difference that it makes to find someone that will actually listen to what you have to say and at least act like they have some kind of idea of what you are talking about.
If you want my honest opinion, there would be a whole lot less EX"S if the H would actually listen to each other and share totally from their hearts and listen to those struggling young people, that young woman that is dealing with abuse from her past, that young husband that is struggling to reconcile something he has come across that makes no sense to him in his spiritual life.
I may never again be an H, because I will never again ex people like I was taught to do, nor will I ever again be subject to a tied down headcovering that is a struggle because of birth defects and partial deafness. nor that fact that I never have been able to tell others that they must do exactly like the H to be saved. Being H does not save. The blood of Christ does.
But I value the friends I have there that are able to see beyond the standard and accept that they may not have the only perfect way to live a christian life on earth. just lately I had the priviledge of sharing with an H minister about something we are both concerned about. We stood there and cried together as we shared our struggles and concerns. That my friends is being able to truly love without disimilation. when we can lay down the differences we have and share in the spirit of the Christ that loves us.
"But for the record, I do think a “Snopes” for more than just emails on this site would probably be a good thing. Most of what is posted here has a pretty strong bias against the CGCM. That does not mean that some of the things posted aren’t true, but it does mean that they are magnified and construed in such a way as to get the reader on the side of the poster, and what is posted doesn't reflect the real heart of the matter (for the record, I expect some flack for that statement, and thats OK, it doesn't change my view). I do understand quite well why. I’ve been there myself. But what of it? "
Actually, my friend, I wasn't thinking as much about personal accounts - (i.e. "the church done me wrong") as I was about input on doctrinal issues. I am well aware that people tend to slant things to gain the support of their listeners, but we do that as well. I would suspect that there is a certain amount of "defending the church" in your reason for being here. You post with a strong bias FOR the CGCM. That doesn't mean that what you may say is all untrue either........but well, you get my drift. Don't let that cloud your judgment.
I disagree with Fred, and he responded by calling me a contemptible person. Perhaps he was worried I may be right? Just maybe?
okay tr, iI am calling you on this'
here is the subject of the thread:
So how is it that a whole group of men would discourage it,,, ever!
I clearly articulated my view: so that in just a few short words, the real reason h people don't search for truth like the Bereans did is exposed.
so long as the study leads to an assurance that the conference is right it is okay,but woe betide the guy that hears a different tune and says so!
They simply so punish anyone deviating their conference ideas that it is not worth looking for the truth.
Then instead of you saying what the reason is, you call me a liar which either I am speaking truth, or I am lying. An opinion is either true or false my friend. I am either saying the truth or a lie.
Fred, you present one mans opinion.
I search the scriptures daily. By them I endeavor to live. I am a CGCM member.
You didn't say I could be right, or I am right some of the times, but you said I am expressing an opinion, and you say it in an insulting and belittling way as if I am a terd.
So since I felt you were calling me a terd, I simply gave it back to you in kind, except in my way of speech which is a little less deceitful but perhaps just as cutting.
listen tr, you are free to say everything you said up there. I am very used to being verbally abused, and infact didnt even think about the insult involved util writing this post, except to think it was a veiled insult somhow and Scott sort or mentioned.
I know what I am about, and have no shadows of doubts about my own destiny and calling. I am a very happy person, and I have nothing to 'prove" to you or anyone else that doesn't appreciate me. I love my friends and do not like neither desire to be around my enemies, but my friends allow me to say what I think. Also I consider myself to be your friend, and as such i allow you to say what you think! (even if it is contemptible)
I don't have to call your church a thing that is not true, because if I simply speak the truth of the beast, it's own people stand up and know they've been ground up by it too.
Now back to the subject on hand, do you honestly think the H is some sort of a place were people are encouraged to study the bible and act on what they see without getting permission from the "brethren" first? Because that is what this discussion is about, either you are your own priest, or the brethren are or the preacher is, but somebody is!
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