ok, so I have a serious question here. (for those that this applies to)

What draws you to the "plain" lifestyle? I mean for those who are seriously drawn by the homemade dresses, pot-lucks, and minivan lifestyle.

I don't mean to sound rude or indifferent, however, even as a little boy the plain lifestyle was simply not appealling to me in any way. I can completely understand simplifying life, we have done the same, but the dress and accoutrements of that lifestyle is quite frankly foreign to any desire or thought pattern I have ever experienced.

Is it more common in Americans than Canadians? Is it an inherited trait (not in my case)?

I would really like to hear some serious thoughts on what "draws" people to the conservative menno's, the amish, or any of the plain people.

Peter, the attraction (for me at least) was the return to a time when people spent more time with family and the important things in life and less with chasing our tails. The Amish/Conservative Menno emphasis on family/community/church is refreshing when compared to our current culture. It reminds me a lot of the old Lutheran ways that I saw amongst my grandparents and the farming community they lived in. Of course after spending nearly 7 years in semi-community (never fully accepted due to our D&R) with the Charity and Nationwide Mennos, their cultural foibles became apparent (along with their need to break up our family). I might add that the Amish are a lot easier to get along with! Anyway, we took a number of things away from our experience with the "plain". We tend to be very conservative with our purchases, place family first (still don't have a tv), don't care for "high" churches, and don't feel pressured to conform to the current culture (clothing, possessions etc). We don't dress in any uniform manner but still manage modesty thru careful clothing selection. I guess the main thing is the ability to say "no" to this culture, which if not actually sinful is at least stupid and wasteful.

wrong thread

I think what Brent says is a large part of it. around here there is a large group of folks into things like home birth, home school, home church, modest living, getting back to the basics, growing your own food, organic living. Plus we have Wayne county and Holmes county next door where the largest group of amish outside of Pa reside in a place that has idylic scenery and makes people wish for long ago times. I also think that the community life style and working together like their grandparents did is a large attraction to many. Personally I lived the regular life style and have no desire to go back to it. We had TV for a whole 5 yrs of my life and had to have it repaired every summer because we did not watch it enough to keep the tubes dry. WE have personally lived in the country all of our marriage howbeit in a little town of 10 or so houses in a farming community. that was not mennonite although there are 3 denominations represented in the area. In the past 25 yrs amish have moved in and we now have 5 districts in the county ( somewhere in the vacinity of 100-120 families )and the next one south of us. It is changing the standard in the area, but because of the way our economy is run and the taxing system, the family farms are loosing out because it is nearly impossible to just farm for a living unless you do it in such a large scale that you must hire help, or you have another job that supports you so you can survive. The saddest part is that ours and your governments do not understand that they are driving out of business, the very basis of our economy. because if we lose our food base and there is no one left that is willing to work that hard or has the knowledge to put to use, we too will become like the 3rd world countries that are starving to death because of lack of food and knowledge of how to grow it.
Personally I have to tell you that I love to sew and have been doing it since I was 5 yr old and have trained my daughters well also. and the dress was not so much of a problem to me until I had health problems that did not allow me to be able to dress in that manner for various lengths of time, But I still sew even though I am not making the H style dresses, I am making long skirts and modifying T shirts and making modest tops and dresses that do not place me with any particular group. And I still can wear the dresses that I wore H because where we are attending church there is still a modest dress code and shirtwaist dresses are something that has actually never went out of style in my life time.
I am amazed to see my married H children going back to the type of life style I lived growing up. the family cow, their own eggs and chickens and large gardens. and yes they know how to stomp their laundry if by chance the washer machine is broken, just like their Dad did in Brasil.

>> I guess the main thing is the ability to say "no" to this culture, which if not actually sinful is at least stupid and wasteful.<<

I would agree with this, and add that a big part of simple living is the pace which accompanies it. Before coming into the Mennonites, I had been convinced by the media that they lived a simple lifestyle. Newly converted and coming from the counter-culture, I expected to find a lot in common with these folks, but alas, I have yet to find it. It has given me a new appreciation for my own parents who never flew, never traveled, lived frill free and understood "community". The Mennonites I've been associated with, other than lacking a few popular items such as TV and radio, do not live all that much different economically from the rest of society.
One time I remember buying a book from a Mennonite publishing company called, "A Way in the Wilderness". I expected some sort of admonishment of the popular Menno culture and advice on living more simply. It was, not surprisingly, a disappointment, directed more at finding clever ways to earn more. It had nothing to do with altering lifestyle. Even the locals here think that Mennonites are rich - the joke is that they support the airport.
In contrast with "A Way in the Wilderness" I have read a great deal in promotion of a simple life way of living: E.F.Shumacher -"Small is Beatiful" is a good starting place. The Nearings had a lot to offer in the way of eating simply and growing one's own food. There are endless resources directing people to truly mastering the art of simple living.
But...it does not include driving vans, making $50 dresses, wearing such frills as hose and heels, serving roast beef every Sunday, or flying overseas to visit the mission, let alone to weddings in other areas! Recently we had a former H. member drop by - he was here from the West to attend the funeral of a former neighbor. He told me he had just returned home from a family funeral in another province before coming here. Then he went on to say how his business is not as lucrative as he would like, etc. How to keep a straight face? And I thought, since the funeral was for a local man (meaning locals do not generally travel at whim), how that man would NOT have flown West for this guys funeral!
As to the "convictions" of the H. people, I have noted that whenever someone leaves the group (expelled or whatever) the first thing they do is violate all the rules, quickly acquiring the things which have been forbidden in their past, falling into the popular trends of mainstream society. Many of the H. youth here enjoy their cell phone capabilities (photos), and the screen the church declares on internet use is but a joke.
Admitting that we have a computer is humbling though..it does not fit my scheme of simple living either. The real problem I have is not with someone slipping up, as to taking the bold stand of declaring they live "simply" when they simply do not.

No TV?? Man, Brent R, you beat me by a country mile. The lure of Clint Eastwood westerns are to great !!

<making $50 dresses>
this one has always blown my mind, I guess I have spent too many yrs on nearly nothing, that I cannot comprehend spending that kind of money on clothes. I remember one time in SS that I said something about setting a price in my head and not going over it and trying to get my fabric for not more that $1.50 a yard, $2 being my max.. I had a sister come up to me afterchurch and want to know just where I got that kind of stuff cause she simply could not get any thing that cheap and was spending 3 or more times that. I thought it was hilarious cause we went to the same stores. but I never bought anything unless it was on sale or clearance I guess. I have upped my anti and have a couple that cost me up to $7 a yard, which still is less than $30 a dress. I still make it a habit of spending less than $3 a yrd unless it is for something really special like my son's wedding. But I also get all my accessaries on discount pricing. lately I have had a blast going to a mennonite thrift store where I have been getting stuff that is usually priced at $8-12 a yrd for $1-3.5 a piece, not a yard, up to 4-5 yards. it is pieces that different Amish-menno women decided not to make and cleaned house and gave to the thrift store for money for missions. My girls do not care if they don't have lots of money in their clothes. they just need clothes. and my 5 grandaughters have spent most of their lives in dresses that grandma got at the thrift store, garage sales, goodwill and taken the fancy stuff off of. women walk up to my daughter and say "Oh you've been sewing again." She says," no, mom's been shopping again." For $1-2 I can't afford to buy the material and take the time to sew it. And little girls just love boxes in the mail from grandma.

Nas, I forgot to mention thta I do have high speed wireless internet at home. So we can snatch old movies and TV shows off the net if we want. But, between work (my wife and daughter also work off farm) and the farm, usually we just relax and chat or play a game in the evening before bed.

there is a definite difference of standard of simple from place to place. I can still hear the collective gasp one year durring revivals when a minister made the statement that it was not necesary to go to the mall and spend $80 on jeans. His $40 Levis held up just fine. Hope he figured out what it was he said, most of the guys here only bought their pants on sale and mostly the cheapest jeans they could and here he was advocating 3 times what they were paying for theirs. I will say this, this looks like a real rich place but even the most rich looking is not above dumpster diving and garage sales and thrift stores, damaged goods places.But the pants deal was totally hilarious, kinda felt sorry for the guy though.

Lockway - a cheaper way still to make a dress is to buy a second hand sheet ($4 and under at our second-hand outlet) -if you look long enough you can find ones in excellent condition and usually better cotton than from the fabric shop!

would do that but the nearest sheet outlet is about 10-12 hrs away. we do have a discount store that has tablecloths for $4-5 that my girls use quite abit. used to go the sheet outlet in NC. but since my DD move west. I probably won't see that one again for a long time.

I appreciate the honest thought in these responses.

I can kind of understand the desire when it is put into a culture or family oriented setting. As I mentioned we probably don't fit the materialistic mode of many people we know either but do enjoy a very comfortable lifestyle.

I guess what I don't understand is when it is put into a religious setting. (which the above posters did not seem to do)

I think the desire to spend more quality family time should have major benefits in the next generation. And part of my inability to fully understand is partially due to the fact that I have not enjoyed a very close relationship with my own family due to their involvement with the h group. We have a very wonderful close knit group of friends who are closer then I've ever known family to be. They are our family.

Ah just noticed you said second hand sheet that would make a difference. do have lots of those around, haven't paid too much attention to them. As I can still get new stuff for $.50 to $2 a yard regularly. but I will definitely keep that in mind.

Peter, what it might simply amount to regardless of whether a religious organization or a mainstream individual is "good stewardship". We live in a very materialistic society, but have the freedom of choice. I read once in a Donald Kraybill book about the Amish how their rules "liberate them from the anxiety of choice". I think we could all use a dose of this level of liberation - I have experienced it already when volunteering the release of a lifestyle habit, and it truly is liberating.

Canadee, we are trying to instill this in our boys as well. Just because 'everyone' else does something, we don't have to. We teach them acceptence rather than tolerence, and extend the stewardship ideals (although I've honestly never thought of it as 'stewardship') to include the land around us and the air we breathe.

We are finding more and more people who think like us. (from all walks of life, religious or not)

I am also realizing that having it all, can't be all its cracked up to be...everything requires maintenance and upkeep. The more things we drag home from someplace be it garage sales or pier 1 the more things control you.
I'm starting to think we don't have things, things have us, hook line and sinker, we are the slaves to the crap we think we want.
Another car, a place at the lake, addition to the house, a pool, having employees to take care of it all. It all detracts us from what is really important, relationships with family and friends and time to just be in the moment.
All these things deteriorate and look impressive for a brief moment...but soon the shine wears off and they become the burdens that weigh us down.
I have been trying to take time to consider these implications before I purchase something...Its been surprising how quickly my wants loss their shine when I think about them from this perspective.

My father, a young man during the Depression, did not believe in debt. He was able to live his life with nothing more than a car payment, and that only because the bank offered an insurance that covered the debt upon death. (My father was a practical man.) :0)

Until we met the Holdemans, we were debt free. We lived a basic life and saved cash to build a house, but after meeting them we moved to their area and bought a farm, assuming a mortgage. It has weighed heavy on my soul, even though we are well able to cover the monthly payments. It seems so "worldly". It does not fit in with living simply.

I have been checking to find what the Bible says about borrowing and living in debt. Here is some of what I have found so far:
The Bible does not prohibit debt. However, everywhere that debt is mentioned, it is discussed in a negative light.
It makes you a servant to someone other than God. Proverbs 22:7 says: “The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender.”
If you do borrow, you must pay back all of the debt. It is a sin to borrow and not repay.
Psalm 37:21 says: “The wicked borrow and do not repay, but the righteous give generously.”
Ecclesiastes 5:5 says: “It is better not to vow than to make a vow and not fulfill it.”
Deuteronomy 15:1-2 says: “At the end of every seven years you must cancel debts. This is how it is to be done: Every creditor shall cancel the loan he has made to his fellow Israelite. He shall not require payment from his fellow Israelite or brother, because the LORD’s time for canceling debts has been proclaimed.”
Luke 16:13 — "No servant can serve two masters…. You cannot serve God and mammon."

Perhaps I ought to start a new debate but I think it fits in with the theme of plainer living. What prompts me to want to discuss it is that my Holdeman son is thinking about taking on a huge mortgage.

That is an excellent subject Candee

I think we also need to think of the purpose of the debt. I do think there is a big big difference between borrowing for a bedroom suite, A TV or a new car or borrowing for a Farm or a Business.

And even borrowing for a business can excessive. I well remember leaving the farm with debts at 27 different places, Most of them past due. And we eventually did pay them all off.

I am now in debt again, Probably 50times as much as I was then. But I have most of my debts being paid by my renters and returns on other investments. And yes if the economy went for a big enough loop I could look really foolish. However if oil prices stay near the same or go up I might be able to pay all of my debts in 3 to 6 years. I do think careful planning, Using advice from others who are successful and common sense are important.

there is much scripture on taking care of your blessings, or talents, and tithing, Do not forget to look at the positives as well as the negatives in the scripture.

And remember it is just as rewarding to oneself to be able to put $100 or $1000 in the offering plate when it comes around as digging in your pocket for change and realizing you then won't be able to stop at the ice cream shop on the way home with the kids.

But I do know if you are faithful puting in that fifty cents or 5 dollars when that is all you can afford that God will likely reward you with the ability to contribute more later.

Herman

Canadee,

I largely agree with you about debt. I grew up in a home where debt was a motivator, in other words, to motivate one's self to get a lot of work done, go buy a new truck, or house, or maybe both, etc. That same pattern has somewhat infected me, and I found myself next to unable to pay my bills about 3 years in to my marriage. I need to add here, though, that I had some older brethren raise some words of caution for me before that time, and I fell in to the age old trap of thinking "they just don't understand my situation, they have all the money they want, so of course they think that way". I am very thankful that today I am not nearly so strung up as I was not so long ago. I am now more content with my lot in life than I've ever been. This does not mean I'm not motivated, but it does mean that I choose my motivations carefully, instead of foolishing motivating myself for the fleeting things of life.

I have absolutely no experience with farming or living off the land, unless tilling the garden once a year for my wife qualifies me , but do have a tendancy to buy natural products, and find natural solutions. Our 2nd baby was born at home (on purpose ), the first was born in a midwife clinic. We paid for both out of our pocket, rather than rely on insurance companies, the state, and all the regulations that go with such reliance.