Say unmarried brother (or sister) X and unmarried sister (or brother) Y "get it on" and the whole thing is found out, resulting in their excommunication for "fornication" or "gross lasciviousness" or whatever it's called these days in Holdeland. 6 hours (or days, or weeks, or months, or years) later, they see the error of their ways, repent of their wrongdoing, and cease and desist from the behaviour that got them the big boot. Let's say though, that they don't return to the Holdechurch. According to the Holderules they will both be shunned for the rest of their earthly days (and possibly even in Heaven - if the Holdies actually make it there ). However, they have repented for their sin, ceased from continuing in it, and have been forgiven by God - in other words, their sin is no more, since Christ has made atonement for sin.

Why does the Holdechurch still continue to punish them? Is God's forgiveness not enough?

I think conventional belief on this would be that, if they repent and return to God, they would also return to the CGCM, His Bride. It all comes back to the OTVC, Steven, you know that.

So, unless one seeks to be reunited with the Holdechurch, it's not possible to repent and be forgiven and/or one has not actually repented? Who is doing the forgiving? Apparently the Holdechurch's forgiveness trumps that of God's.

Steven, I have contemplated this one for a long time. I could go anywhere in the whole wide world and live the holiest life possible and be saved but if I came back and visited the H church or family I would still be shunned. In order for them(H) to absolve themselves of the mess and consternation that situation brings, the escape hatch is the OTVC, as annon says. Right there is the reason that avoidance as practiced by the H is not Biblical.

An amazing thought came to me as I was pondering this question. Simply, that by their actions the h's prove they don't have the power to forgive sins. Only God has that power, and confusion reigns when they profess to stand in His place to grant forgiveness. Thankfully, many of us have recognized that God's forgiveness is what our soul asks for and receives and that the refusal of a group of people to believe that we are free doesn't affect the truth at all. Their condemnation just plain doesn't count in the grand scheme of things!

And they think it is autraucios that some people go to confession in other churches for forgiveness. To me it is very much the same.
Herman

I could go anywhere in the whole wide world and live the holiest life

Hey GM, you thinkin bout joinin up with QWERTY?

(Sorry QWERTY, couldn't resist )



Why does the Holdechurch still continue to punish them? Is God's forgiveness not enough?


Yes, God's forgiveness is enough. But for what cause wouldn't they want to make a public confession to the brothers & sisters in the faith of their sins, tell how God has delivered them from those things, and allow such to be done in a formal, decent, and orderly way? That, to me, is the basis of reaceptance as practiced by the CGCM.

2 Corinthians 7:11
For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

If one refuses to do so, it is their choice, not the choice of the CGCM.

So TR,, you want them to confess before YOUR church? Ok,,, what if they come confess that "Furin Spurit" before all of you holy Holdies,,,, then,,,, go on and join another church,,, are you hooldemans going to accept that person as a brother? BTW, how do you confess a "Furin Spurit" when nobdy even knows what it is?

Sorry to burst your little bubble there TR, but it is entirely possible to stand before your H cong and ask forgiveness and tell what God is doing for you and how sorry you are and not only not be forgiven, but also not be reaccepted. Ask Me how I know. Beside what if the person seen their sin but did not feel that the H structure was doin right, but asked forgiveness for their sin and part in what put them out originally. I can still guarantee that there would be no drop in the avoidance. Men make a lot of requirements to forgiveness on people based on their own personal experiences and opinions that are not always God's. I have never yet met a perfect person, don't expect to, none without sin either. I have watched for years how certain people can be totally accepted by the H and put in places of authority while their neighbors don't trust them in business dealings any farther than they could throw. these folks will stay in the H all their life and never get into any kind of trouble. when the person joining from the outside asks about them, they will be told," O they are on their way out, you are on your way in." 20 yrs from now the new person will be out and the old will still be there just as dishonest as they ever were. Seen it happen over and over in more than a few places before I never saw a forum to discuss it.

>>But for what cause wouldn't they want to make a public confession to the brothers & sisters in the faith of their sins, tell how God has delivered them from those things, and allow such to be done in a formal, decent, and orderly way?<<

Hey, if someone wants to do that, fine! Go ahead and knock yourself out, but that is certainly no prerequisite for forgiveness by God (and presumably God is the important one). (1)

2 Corinthians 7:9-11 (NAS)(2):

"I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to the point of repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to the will of God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us.

For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.

For behold what earnestness this very thing, this godly sorrow, has produced in you: what vindication of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what longing, what zeal, what avenging of wrong! In everything you demonstrated yourselves to be innocent in the matter."

I've read the verse you refer to (as well as the preceding ones - in order to get a little bit of context - not that context matters to the Holdies most of the time) and do not follow where you're going with that as it relates to the sin needing to be confessed before the whole church in order for it to be accepted as being forgiven.


(1) If one were to go on the assumption that a public confession is necessary, what if the penitent one DOES make that "public confession to the brothers & sisters in the faith of their sins, tell how God has delivered them from those things" but does not request, nor desire, to be taken back into the Holdechurch? What would the basis for shunning be THEN? Certainly the shunning could not be for the initial sin that resulted in the excommunication. There would be no reason to continue to do so.

(2) That's 'New American Standard' not 'Nas' as in 'Nascar'.

>Hey GM, you thinkin bout joinin up with QWERTY?<

Lol, TR, that hadn't even crossed my mind! How about it Qwertz, what all do I have to DO? I know one thing, I'm not in to wearing hats and suspenders so that would probably disqualify me right there, if in fact that would be a requirement. And I'm way too imperfect!
No, I was thinking of living somewhere more tropical so I didn't have to worry about or face cold winters.(fat chance of that ever happening,ha!)

Screw it...why bother.

GM:
>>>How about it Qwertz, what all do I have to DO?

Seek God for godly sorrow which will lead you to repentance, forsake all sins, believe in your heart through faith that Jesus died and has risen and paid the price for you sins, confess your sins to God through Jesus and accept his forgiveness and then trust in the grace of God to go and sin no more. That will make you a member of the OTVC called the church of God. To keep your membership in good standing you will need to read your Bible and pray regularly, resist all temptations by the grace of God, get rid of every thing that will lead you into temptations, and grow in your love for God and your neighbor.

In the Bible it is called being born again.

What is it with church people that makes them lust over hearing another's sins? I went through that with the mennonite brethren. Actually has one tell me she could not wait to hear my horrible sins on testimony night! What about forgetting the past as God does? How about the part about becoming a new creation? Repent! means to turn from not tell all.

You going to be ok grace?

surely this couple wouldn't be given permission to marry without church discipline if they had actually fornicated. the church excommunicates fornicators without fail if it is found out.

Right now in our congregation there is someone who has fornicated and it is common knowledge,but the staff won't expell him because he denies it ever happened.

the staff should just prove his spirit. if he had really fornicated then their spirits wouldn't flow at all since he would be spiritually deader than a doorknob and a group of preachers is always spiritual.

LL said "Men make a lot of requirements to forgiveness on people based on their own personal experiences and opinions that are not always God's."

A few months back at a re-acceptance meeting one of the brethren voiced, "Well I guess he's been on probation long enough...." I think this type of arrogant statement and attitude might support your thought.

And in case "skeptic" or TR or anyone asks "did it really happen that way?"

Grace is being very kind and not even telling half the stuff that, yes, is really happening.

if the preachers can prove the spirits they will catch this. if they cannot then they have to go on the only evidence that is given them. then it becomes a he said she said kind of thing. if there is no proof one way or the other what are they to do?

They could check for stains if they need proof.

DALE!!!!

It seems to me the scriptures always come on the side of mercy and forgiveness regardless of the sin, and this when guilt and sorrow is felt. It is when we refuse to admit our sin and the need of the blood of Christ, that guilt will continue.

For brevity, the following is not complete, but gives Menno Simons view of "repentance" as related to excommunication. page 1044.

"If the ban was in part instituted for the purpose of repentance, how then, if repentance is already shown (namely in a sorrowing and contrite heart), can excommunication be pronounced against such ? O my brethren, cease from such plans, for it tends to destroy and not to reform.

...Not the weak but the corrupt members are cut off, least they corrupt the others..."

don't kid yourselves ... there are happenings in the H church and it is nicely swept under the carpet... to save face(s). Sad but true... They claim to be the unspotted OTVC but... there are stains! Pre-sex does happen and they can get away with it... i know of situations and they are still in that church.

higheagle
where did that happen at? I got kicked out faster than you can imagine! now we wish we woulda stayed out but we where young and couldnt handle the shunning... anyways Steve, I could tell you some stories about what they ask when they visit with a person about what happened and what they require when you try to get back in that would absolutely make you have a fit!!

do tell, micky!

I better not for ID sake. Lets just say it was definitely for the preachers benefit.. not at all anything that he needed to know. just wanted to know. ;( they'd probly x me just for telling

"if the preachers can prove the spirits they will catch this. if they cannot then they have to go on the only evidence that is given them. then it becomes a he said she said kind of thing. if there is no proof one way or the other what are they to do?"


I think this points out the fact that the whole process is wrong. If it is important to expel someone for a certain type of sin, and the person adds lying to the original sin, and no one can prove any of it happened, and yet people suspect or know that it did, and the sin remains untreated, and it all depends on these preachers having tons of supernatural discernment, which we all know they are greatly lacking in, well, just examine this whole system for flaws. Something is wrong at the very bottom of it.

wow micky either we had the same preacher-man or there is more than one of them lusting after all the steamy details! I'm dying to know, but don't worry. I won't ask.

spedals you sound kinda like someone I know.. maybe it was the same preacher?