THE TRUE CHURCH: AN INQUIRY INTO THE APOSTASY OF THE EARLY CHURCH AND ITS RESTORATION by D. Loy Smith

OFFICES FOR ALL MEMBERS

This analogy of the church being the body of Christ establishes another great principle. Just as each member of our natural body has a work or a function, so every member of the church, the body of Christ, has a distinct work or function.

1 Cor. 12:1-20,27 For the body is not one member, but many.
If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
If the whole body [were] an eye, where [were] the hearing? If the whole [were] hearing, where [were] the smelling? But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. And if they were all one member, where [were] the body? But now [are they] many members, yet but one body. Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

Paul is here showing the necessity of every member in the body. In order for a body to operate properly, every member must function in its own position, doing the work assigned to it. This means every member in the body should be a FUNCTIONING member and should function in its own place or position in the body. This position is their office in the body of Christ. Every member has his own office.

Rom 12:4-5 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, [being] many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

All members have an office, but not the same office. There are different offices for the different members. The word "office" may be somewhat misleading here as the word "office" can have several connotations. Many people, when you speak of having an office, think in political terms or of positions of authority as in a hierarchical system. But none of the offices in the church are political, and only a few of them are positions of authority in the usual meaning of that term. The office one holds in the body simply means his particular function in the body.

If we examine the word "office" used in the NT you will find there are only eight verses in the King James Version that contain the word "office." Of these verses, three have reference to the Levitical priesthood. These are Heb. 7:5 and Luke 1:9, in which the Greek word HIERATEIA (hee-er-at-yoo-o) the verb form of HIERATEIA is translated "execute the priest's office". Our English word "hierarchy" comes from this Greek word HIERATEIA. These verses, of course, concern the Levitical priesthood and have nothing to do with the pattern of the NT church and need not be considered in our present study.

This leaves five verses of scripture to consider in which three different Greek words are translated office. If we examine all the Greek words translated "office" in these verses, it will verify that the word as used in the NT means office in the sense of function or work.

The Greek word translated office in our scripture above, Roman 12:4, is PRAXIS, which means work or action. It is translated "office only here in Rom. 12:4. It is translated "works" once, and "deed" four times. It should be obvious by the way it is usually translated that its basic meaning has to do with work.

THE TRUE CHURCH OFFICES FOR ALL MEMBERS

The Greek word EPISKOPE (ep-is-kop-ay) means overseership and is translated "office of a bishop" in 1 Tim. 3:1. That this is referring to the WORK of a bishop is evident from the scripture in which it is found. "...If a man desire the OFFICE [WORK] of a bishop, he desireth a good WORK." (1 Tim. 3:1 EPISKOPE perhaps comes closest to what most people mean by the word office, for a bishop is a position of authority in the church. But it is first and foremost a work or function in the body of Christ.

The only other word translated "office" in the New Testament is DIAKONIA (dee-ak-on-ee-ah) which means "minister" and its verb form is DIAKONEO, (dee-ak-an-e-o) which means "to minister or serve". DIAKONIA is translated "office" in Rom. 11:13 and DIAKONEO is translated "use the office of a deacon" in 1 Timothy 3:10 and again in verse 13, but these words are almost always translated "minister", for DIAKONIA and its cognates are the principle words meaning minister and ministry in the NT.

All of the Greek words behind the English word "office" have the same basic meaning then, of working, serving, or ministering. So the words "function" and "work" best describe the word "office" as used in the NT. Once we understand that an office in the body of Christ is is simply the function of that particular member, we can readily understand how all members should have an office and be functioning members.

THE TRUE CHURCH; OFFICES FOR ALL MEMBERS

The practical application of this concept is that God uses the various members functioning in their offices to cause the body to grow and increase as they are connected to one another in the body and tied to the head by the joints and bands (ligaments and sinews).

Col 2:19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

Eph 4:15-16 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ:
From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

All nourishment flows from the head which directs the various organs of the body to do their work. Every part, tht is every member of the body, can only effectually work, that is, give his supply, through the joints and bands, that is, as he is connected to the body.

The services in the early church were conducted in such a way that all of the members could function in ther respective offices. When Paul instructs the church at Corinth on how a service should be conducted, he tells them it should be so that "every one of you" can participate, and not just the clergy or the priesthood or a few designated individuals, but every Christian in the congregation was given the right and opportunity to exercise in his office, whatever that office might be. And notice too the variety of activity in that service.

1Cr 14:26-31 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
If any man speak in an [unknown] tongue, [let it be] by two, or at the most [by] three, and [that] by course; and let one interpret.
But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
If [any thing] be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

Here is what I noticed about the church I go to. In the beginning I was tentatively interested in it, but waited to get disappointed. One thing I noticed was this; The pastor, Brother Coleman exuded some kind of quiet authority that I did not understand. I watched and examined it for a long time. There were no rules in the church. No established order. No membership. According to everything I had always thought, total chaos should have reigned. He has a completely open pulpit. Any stranger is welcome to wander in and is invited to participate. The first time I was there, he watched me sitting there, and he said, Were you getting ready to say something? And of course, I took the bait, and have been doing so ever since. When we are sitting there, he will say, would there be anyone else? He expects us to be strong and grounded enough to catch on if someone is teaching something incorrect. He has no ego and no need to control. I would watch him come in and take his seat, and he will never sit facing the group, but always along the side, and I would literally almost see the robe of quiet authority that he wore around him. But he never overtly exercised it or wielded it. If someone comes in and says or does something that is off key, he will subtly refer to it in the following weeks, but never in a way that could ever be taken as direct criticism, but just enough to bring it to your mind and make you think about it and then compare it to the truth. Now, after listening to Brother Smith teach for the last 2 months, and reading his book, I realize that this church operates under the principles that he describes in his book at the NT pattern. Notice that I am not claiming that it is totally and exactly the NT pattern, but rather we operate according to the way Brother Smith describes it and understands it. What I see is, that if you are operating under what I believe to be the true NT pattern, the order takes care of itself. I have noticed that the church is self cleansing. I have seen zero bitterness, strife, or rancor. People who have any of those tendencies fall away because they do not find an arena in which to act out their illness. They simply find that they have no fun there so they move on. Perverts and weirdos drift through but don't last, because Brother Coleman will take the opportunity to pray over them sometimes during the singing, and not one word will be said that they can take issue with, but they know he understands their nature and is inviting them to repent.

What I see about this, is that it depends upon no lineage, no creed, no organization, no headquarters, no leader. Someone like Fred could apply these principles to his family, start to meet at home or in a building, invite others to come, and create a setting such as the one I enjoy. God's presence would be there, and he would bless it. forreal could freely express his repressed rage at the Holdemans, walk away, find a few friends and create a church completley based on the NT pattern. It is completley portable, completely workable, and completely pleasant. forreal could even lead the singing in any way he wants, let anyone else sing, play the guitar and no one would frown or condemn, but they would all clap happily and shout Glory be to God! Praise the Lord. Come on give it a try! This works.

THE TRUE CHURCH; OFFICES FOR ALL MEMBERS....BY D. LOY SMITH

Paul is not referring here to a special class of men set aside to perform or conduct religious services. he is talking about EVERY member in the church. For the body to work prop0erly, every member must have the opportunity to function in his office. There is no clergy distinct from the laity in the NT church. The idea of the clergy being a separate class from the laity was a part of the apostasy of the early church which finally resulted in the Roman Catholic idea of a sacerdotal priesthood- a priest that stands BETWEEN Christ and his body.

This priesthood became one of the seven sacraments of the Roman system, called Holy Orders, in which men were ordained to re-offer the sacrifice of Christ in the Eucharist, called the Mass. The Eucharist is another of the sacraments in the Roman system. The priest by virtue of his office has the power to turn the bread and wine into the real blood and body of Christ. Remember that in the Roman system the sacraments are the way that God dispenses his grace to man.

Contrary to the sacerdotal priesthood of Catholicism, the NT teaches the priesthood of all believers, simply by virtue of being a part of the people of God. And our sacrifices are not to be flesh and blood, not even the unbloody sacrifice of the mass, but we are to offer up "spiritual sacrifices."

1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Martin Luther recovered this concept of the priesthood of all believers, and renounced the idea that men could place themselves as mediators between God and man. But Protestantism has not followed through with this concept to its Biblical conclusion that every member in the church is a functioning member. While Protestants reject the idea that minister is a sacerdotal person that offers sacrifices on behalf of the laity through the holy Eucharist, they still retain the Roman Catholic concept of dividing the church into clergy and laity. In the services of almost any denomination it is obvious who is officiating and who are communicant or laity. Generally those officiating are even dressed differently than the rest of the congregation. And for the most part the congregation are merely spectators.

<<<<<<forreal could freely express his repressed rage at the Holdemans, walk away, find a few friends and create a church completley based on the NT pattern.>>>>>>>>>
VS: I could? Wow! THE CHURCH of FORREAL Could I preach and lead the singing both? If I had a spiritual need, would I reprove myself and if I started to preach false doctrine would I also be the one to defrock myself?
How convenient and pleasant! Actually I appreciate my christian friends helping me see how wacked out I am at times. (Just an off the cuff remark) Carry on, carry on! Now for a personal question, Did you let WTK ruffle your ruffle recently?

No, I simply carried out some much needed discipline with the dear brother!

And ha ha ha, you were paying close attention, just checking!

Are you serious about the mumbo jumbo you wrote? you think no one reproves in a NT church? Are you mocking me and what I have written, because if you do, you will have to find scriptures to contradict what Brother Smith has written. Forreal, in the church I mention, you could preach, you could testify, you could bring a song, you could ask for prayer, or state that you felt moved to pray for someone else. Everyone would join you in your heartfelt conviction to do what ever you felt to do. Did you read one of the last statements I wrote about a NT church? There is no clergy versus laity. That is the first serious mistake you are going to have to rectify in your present denomination. Either do away with it or the scriptures that have been posted which show there is to be no such thing. Don't just sit there and type silliness to me. I mean you don't really have to do away with it if you simply want to be Holdeman forever, but you don't have a leg to stand on if you are going to refute it.

Why do you mention defrocking yourself if you start to preach false doctrine? Are you thinking that the only one who can defrock a rogue minister is his fellow ministers? Did you not notice that I mention that from what I have seen so far, the thing seems to be satisfyingly self cleansing. And it also appears to me that when the whole pattern is being followed, so many things like false doctrine aren't a problem, because you are dealing with people who have read the Bible carefully, are committed to following it, and who have no ulterior motives or ego or need for power. This eliminates the need for so many of the laws and rules in place in most churches. I look forward to fellowshipping with you! I would travel to your church if you got it going on!



You can tell I am in a bit of a annoyed condition at the refusal of Holdemans to examine things clearly, but rather they deflect with unrelated comments and accusations. Never a word of scripture with which to refute. Now, I shall carry on, soon enough.

Thank you muttherlode, I see it your way now. Thanks for helping me.

forreal, slinking away

OFFICES FOR ALL MEMBERS, (cont)

The Reformers simply did not go far enough to return to NT order. Tradition is a hard thing to overcome. When practice has been sanctified by age it is difficult to make the stringent changes required to return to the NT teaching that every member is to have a particular function or work in the body of Christ. It is very difficult for natural or carnal men to recognize that the church of Jesus Christ is a supernatural institution with Christ as the head, with the members being added by God, and God setting them in the body in the position that he wants them.

In some denominations the congregation is allowed to participate in the singing. It is not uncommon to find some who encourage "lay" participation by having someone help in some of the ceremonies or to give a talk or to share their testimony. It of course, depends on the denomination and even the type of service they are having. some are very formal and some are very relaxed and informal. Whatever concessions these denominations may make to the "laity", this is a far cry from the way Paul is instructing the Corinthians that a service should be conducted here in 1 Corinthians 14:26-31, where "every one of you hath...." something to contribute.
It should be obvious from this scripture that the services could not be programmed. How could someone be put on an agenda in a service conducted like that described here? Contrast this with the services in the denominations where even "Programs" or "Bulletins" are passed out outline the order of the service and detailing every event that will occur in that service. Others of course don't need a program, because tradition dictates exactly what will take place and it is the same routine every time.

In that NT church one never knew what was going to happen. Their first meeting, after Jesus returned to haven, started with a prayer meeting that lasted ten days, culminating in an outpouring of the Spirit of God that left the whole congregation speaking in tongues. I have heard denominational preachers object: "Well, they were speaking in tongues because of the different nationalities there." Oh no! When they started speaking in tongues, only the hundred and twenty Galileans were present. The foreigners came later, AFTER they heard about it. This particular service climaxed in a great sermon preached by the apostle Peter, followed by a baptismal service in which three thousand were baptized.

OFFICES FOR ALL MEMBERS (con't)

In determining the basic elements of a NT service a key scripture is Acts 13:2 The word "ministered" here is from the Greek word LIETOURGEO (li-toorg-eh-o), from which we get our English word liturgy. The liturgy of a church are those rites prescribed for public worship.

Acts 13:2 As they MINISTERED to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

Notice it says "they ministered TO THE LORD", not to each other, not to the church, but to the Lord. How does one "minister" to the Lord. We cannot serve him food or take care of God's physical needs, for he has no physical needs. As example of ministering to the Lord is given by Daniel where this same Greek word LIETOURGEO is used in the Septuagint version of the Old Testament.

Daniel 7:9,10 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment [was] white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne [was like] the fiery flame, [and] his wheels [as] burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

The scene in heaven is further illuminated by a similar scene described in the book of the Revelation.

Rev 4:8-10 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about [him]; and [they were] full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

Rev 5:11-14 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, [be] unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four [and] twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.


It should be plain to see that ministering to the Lord is nothing more than worshiping and praising the Lord. This is confirmed by all the other scriptures showing the activity of that early church.

MothermayI: Don't take me so serious, I'm not trying to belittle what you wrote. I find it very interesting what Smith writes and what you are finding in your fellowship group. And incidentally, I'm not slinking off, sometimes it takes more courage to keep from issuing a rebuttal then it does to offer one.

You can tell I am in a bit of a annoyed condition at the refusal of Holdemans to examine things clearly, but rather they deflect with unrelated comments and accusations.


Hold steady lady, you shall reap in due season if you faint not. Many holdeman members see a problem but have no clue how to fix it.

Many holdeman members see a problem but have no clue how to fix it.

I do! I do! According to the Gospel of Fred, I do!

VS, FYI, I haven't read all this yet, (I hope to when I have more time) but, you guessed it, I picked this one out

He expects us to be strong and grounded enough to catch on if someone is teaching something incorrect.

Does anyone "get by" with not wearing the Scriptural head covering?











Just yanking your (short) chain Lay it on!

Mutterlode,

You mentioned that Brother Coleman exuded some kind of "quiet authority" that you didn't understand. Perhaps he is not exuding authority at all, but a quiet confidence that he is filling the roll, or office that Gods has called him to. Jesus has "all authority". An overseer need not have any, because his job is to point people to Jesus. The apostles (and their assistants or representatives i.e. Timothy and Titus) had a certain type of authority as they helped to establish the church. Whatever type of authority they had ended with their passing.

Historically and through today, whenever men(or women) under the banner of Christianity, have acted as an authority in the church, problems arise. It should be of no surprise, Jesus is the head, there is no other. Jesus needs no one to "stand in His Stead". He is perfectly (pun intended) able to do the job Himself.

Anyway, just my 2 bits. I appreciate the effort you are making in sharing this fellows perspective.

My friends, this song is impressive to me, because it speaks of fellowship in the church with others who trust in Jesus Christ. My life has been an exciting one, not always knowing where or with who I would commune. But God always supplied Christian fellowship for us, and these people have been "The People of Living God" for me. These are ones who believed the Bible, and honestly lived their faith.

However, further to words of the 2nd verse, faith does bring a sense of loneliness, because it strips away all earthly connections and causes one to trust in Jesus alone... no one can do this for us. It is here that we must resign every idol, every connection, and depend on the promises of the Word. Only here can one's deepest longings be satisfied.

2nd verse

Lonely I no longer roam
Like the cloud, the wind, the wave;
Where you dwell shall be my home,
Where you die shall be my grave;
Mine the God Whom you adore;
Your Redeemer shall be mine;
Earth can fill my soul no more—
Every idol I resign.


http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/p/p/polivgod.htm

One comment here, Too many people are looking for the true church. Does the bible tell us to be looking for the true church? Spending so much time looking for the true church takes away from looking for or being with the true God.

If there was ever anything I learned here on this forum it's that there is no TRUE CHURCH nor should we be looking for one. To spend time looking for the "true church" is a waste of what our purpose on earth is.

To think that we have found "the true church" or belong to the "true church" is elitist. No thanks.


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Be True to God, Study his word. Live up to your committments, The idea of finding a perfect church is sort of like trying to change the world. One has to start with himself. If one can control the tongue and even most of his actions he does better than most. And on here it might be the pen (or the keyboard) I don`t see many people swayed here. And I do not see many people converted by people, That is done only with conviction from God. Study the Bible - Earnestly pray and listen for the still small voice and Do not forsake meeting and praying with others that are willing to pray and worship with you - Not just people who want to change you. And if you have not found God's Church I will be surprised.
Herman

andrew, Hank, Vine and Herman, those are some really good posts.

Hank so true about the lonely feeling, sometimes I just long for home, as yet, I don't belong here and I can't go there.

But when I express my love for the Lord and the hope that I have,, through whatever gifts I may have,,I feel a sense of connection that makes due until then.


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We were never called to be Christians. We were/are only called to be fully mature individuals in the realm of the the magnificence of the masculinity and femininity which God created and God called "good". Gender separation is under bitter attack in this new world.

I don't want to be a Christian. I want to be man. What higher calling to aspire to then to mature into what God made you? This idea of a third a sorta of genderless persona of the "Christian" is total BS (and I know the scriptures twisted to get there). If God wanted "Christians", He would have made them in the garden. If we can become real men and women (in Christ), then the Christ attributes will follow spontaneously.

And also, looking for a Church is an old covenant idea. If we are called to anything other than being beautiful men and women, it is to BE the Church and not to FIND the Church. Looking for the Church is a throw-back to the Levitical priesthood of lineages and "external requirements" that the Hebrew writer refutes. The priesthood of Melchizedek is based on the inward life and inward journey.

I have always marveled at arguments of lineage. Because, even if you could prove that you had a connection all the way back to Peter, James, and John, and even if you would prove that at each branch, your group was the true branch, even then, at the end of the day, all you have done is satisfied the Levitical type requirement, and guess what, you go all the way to the back of the class. You know, in some ways, Benny G was a studied man who seemed to stand a little taller than his brethren when it came to scholarship, but how did he miss this salient point? I suppose it is easy to stand tall when standing among midgets, none of whom have the courage to call you on your pseudo scholarship.

>>I don't want to be a Christian. I want to be [a] man. What higher calling to aspire to then to mature into what God made you? This idea of a third a sorta of genderless persona of the "Christian" is total BS (and I know the scriptures twisted to get there). If God wanted "Christians", He would have made them in the garden. If we can become real men and women (in Christ), then the Christ attributes will follow spontaneously.<<

Good points, Scott. While I self-identify as a Christian, my concept of being/becoming a Christian is, I think, down these same lines. You might call it being/becoming a man. I would call it being/becoming a Christian (Christ-follower). Whatever our terminology, I don't believe that Christ envisioned his followers as being some sort of emasculated zombies.

Andrew, I think you made a good point. The thing that I was noticing and trying to understand was some sort of presence. Intense love and kindness and no judgment. He said to me once when I was distressed about my son, "He doesn't need judgment, he needs mercy." That was so opposite of the way I was raised. The order that I was seeing bothered me, how did it come about, without someone wielding heavy handed control?

TR, you're funny,throwing in that bit about headcoverings. Interestingly enough, nothing like that is ever mentioned. None of what I was formerly taught to think of as "doctrines" is ever mentioned. What is mentioned is letting Jesus change your life, deliver you from habits and behaviors, loving one another, working together to build something. Commitment to a goal, trusting God to see us through when times are hard, leaning on him and one another. It's really simple. But not one word about which color of clothing is proper, which headgear is required, what you can be expelled for, how much money you can spend or which equipment or job it is proper to have. You might have to make some big adjustments.

Paris, as far as finding the one true church, I think the point of all Brother Smith's writings is more to show what is NOT a true church. So many people claim to have it but the truth is, a true church can be anywhere, no one has the right to say their denomination is better than another one. And he points out that beyond a shadow of a doubt they cannot be a true church if they do not follow the NT pattern which is very clear and simple. I don't mean to be imposing anything on anyone by writing this. But on this forum there has been so much discussion of OTVC that I found this writing very interesting. I think anyone who is in the Holdeman church and struggling with the issue of whether or not it is the true church, and if that issue is preventing them from making changes that they know they need to make, then this information is valuable.

Scott and Steve; if a religion or a church in any way prevents a man from experiencing the personal growth that prevents him from being first and foremost a man, then it is certainly achieving the opposite of what it is designed to do. I agree that personal growth and the full expression of what we are supposed to be according to our gender and calling should be the thing that God should do in our lives, above all else. Because when we achieve all of this we cannot help but be pleasing to him and to be a blessing to everyone around us. That is more what he had in mind for us as human beings than carrying out the proper kind of religious behavior, which would proudly set us up above everyone else in the world. What hogwash. Reaching our full growth as a human being is what it is all about. And where do headcoverings, beards, lineage, shoes, cars, expelling, etc contribute to this? From what I can see, most religion is designed to twist and thwart the potential of a human being to be the best that God wants him to be. Hence so much rage and frustration at religion.

VS, the book is probably a good, comparison study, if the author is good. I might delve in and read it for that reason. I do think that there are churchs that are pretty far off the mark and we should be informed. However no church is perfect or true. I would however judge a church as truly wrong if it was a cult.

If it walks like a duck...


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Paris, I think maybe you are starting to see where I am coming from with this. I am not trying to draw everyone to my, or this man's idea of THE TRUE CHURCH, and his book title is actually maybe a little bit tongue in cheek, because he means to show that modern religion misses the mark, is full of lies and deception and caters largely to people's need to be entertained and babied. What I see happening with him and the people who have received teaching from him is that they are being EQUIPPED. They fully well realize that we are facing some very hard times, and in those times it will be of the greatest importance to be EQUIPPED. Not just by being bonded and cohesive group who can support one another and work together, but by being fully equipped by the Word of God. He loves it more than anything. I sometimes almost think there isn't a scripture reference you could throw out there that he couldn't quote the scripture. He says all the time "Those who know their God will be strong and do exploits." (Dan 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do [exploits]. I think the day is coming when we will need to be strong if we are going to do the kind of exploits required to endure in the evil that is to come. I want to do exploits, not sit on the sidelines and wonder what hit. Like one of my friends here in Kentucky says all the time, "I want to be right in the great big middle of it!"

It is true, as Scott and Steve mentioned in another thread that their purpose is to become a man, but in my experience, the men whom I look upon as real men love God above all else, are deeply committed to his cause, and subsequently love their wives and families and the responsibilities that God has given them, and this gives them a charisma and makes them deeply attractive on a level that convinces people that they want what these people have. Manliness without Godliness is absurd. God made man in his image. He wants a man to pattern himself after Him. A man who tries to realize his manliness without God being first and foremost in the equation is missing the mark by a mile, not that I am saying that Scott and Steve are leaving God out, I am simply saying it is the first and foremost ingredient. And any man who believes he can put allegiance to a church and a ministry in the mix and be a true man is also guessing. That is where he sacrifices his true masculinity and misses teh mark before he even starts. Just some of my observations along the rough and bumpy highway of life!

Scott wrote:

"We were never called to be Christians. We were/are only called to be fully mature individuals in the realm of the the magnificence of the masculinity and femininity which God created and God called "good". Gender separation is under bitter attack in this new world.

I don't want to be a Christian. I want to be man. What higher calling to aspire to then to mature into what God made you? This idea of a third a sorta of genderless persona of the "Christian" is total BS (and I know the scriptures twisted to get there). If God wanted "Christians", He would have made them in the garden. If we can become real men and women (in Christ), then the Christ attributes will follow spontaneously.

And also, looking for a Church is an old covenant idea. If we are called to anything other than being beautiful men and women, it is to BE the Church and not to FIND the Church. Looking for the Church is a throw-back to the Levitical priesthood of lineages and "external requirements" that the Hebrew writer refutes. The priesthood of Melchizedek is based on the inward life and inward journey."

Let me ask you this. How can a man be a fully mature individual if he has not taken on the responsibilities of being a man of God. For a woman to be truly a woman, she must be willing to be sheltered and protected fully by a man. What man is capable of that, or worthy of doing such, if he is not fully a man of God, fully committed to that which is of God, and prepared to supply the gentle woman with that which her heart craves most, and that which she will obtain on her own, through Jezebel-ish means if he does not fully meet this deep need for her and provide Godly leadership and shelter for her. A man can claim all day long that he is not called to be a Christian, which I am not sure is true, and he will inevitably fail to meet the deepest need of the woman in his life. She will then turn to those dreaded Jezebel ways that you so thoroughly hate and dread, and the man will proudly thump his chest and say "I only want to be a man." I don't think I follow your thinking here. Manliness is not a stand alone thing. It is woven into the tapestry of life in a way that not one thread of it can be extricated without damaging the whole picture. Fully mature and fully realized human being, men and women are indeed what God desires to see, but in Him. He has the perfect pattern for us.

Fire away, big guy.

Thanks VS for that,, you seem to have come a long way from your roots and it looks good on you. I have at my church heard many sermons on "equipping the saints".


In the earlier post,,I am not going to edit it but I am feeling checked in my heart about the reference to a cult. I guess for the most part I should have said that some churchs appear to "operate in a cultish style" for I am not qualified to judge.


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