We H's have grown up with all the H's (parents, friends, staff) always saying, "If you leave your kids are gonna go off the deep end (into drugs, sex, etc... etc..)" Is this always true? We have 2 small boys and never want to see something like that happen to them but also we are sick of how extremely legalist the church as a whole has become! I hate the thot of my boys having to go thru all the things that we went thru in our youth!!! Any thoughts? Has this turned out true for any of you that have left?

I was told the same thing when I left the H church. My mom told me my marriage would fall apart and everything else.I have been going to a womens prayer group at our church and I was telling the women about things that were spoke over me by the H church and that I have believed them. They told me those are curses that were spoke over me. Do not beleive the lies they tell you. Read the word and beleive what God says.

I think leaving the H church and seeing your family through to successful finishing is one of the trickiest things there is. It has been very very hard for my family, but God has been seeing us through. There are a lot of difficulties that come up that most likely would have surfaced if you would have stayed in the H church. For example, not all Holdeman young people who have 2 church member parents grow up without difficulty. I think the problem is that sometimes people try to move too quickly or make changes to suddenly. Children are very very sensitive to the changing of rules (things that were formerly forbidden are suddenly available,) to the loss of friends, to the disapproval of formerly doting grandparents and cousins, etc. These things are very very tricky to deal with, in my opinion, and almost cannot be done without difficulty, but God will be there to see you through. I would rather have my children face the difficulty that they have, which I see as an opportunity to build character rather than stay flabby and weak in a society that decides everything for them and where they are never faced with making real choices for themselves. If you have small children you are faced with the issues of school...homeschool, private school, or public school. These transitions have to be prayerfully considered. It took me years to fully extricate myself from the system. And let me say this; the H family will not do anything to make it easier. They are very concerned with seeing their prophecies come true and then throwing it in your face. There was one woman one time who nagged me that if I would be where I was supposed to be that my son would be good and stable and alright and doing everything he should do. She forgot to think about the fact that she herself had a daughter who was acting out quite dreadfully. I did point that out to her and asked her what she made of it. There was no answer of course.

Please move ahead as God leads you and HE WILL TAKE CARE OF YOUR FAMILY. I gave my daughter The Diary of Anne Frank to read and pointed out to her that life is not easy and nothing is handed to us on a silver platter. There are thorns among the roses and all of us must negotiate a path that is our very own.

>>the H family will not do anything to make it easier. They are very concerned with seeing their prophecies come true and then throwing it in your face.<<

Exactly. It's not even so much about them wishing you ill (although that is part of it; i.e. if your life goes down the toilet, perhaps you will 'lay it all down' and go through the squeeze chute and submit to the church). It's more about them, (as it ALWAYS is). If these prophecies don't come true, then many of their own reasons for staying in the H church begin to look invalid. That is, if they see that you are able to have a good and successful life outside of the Holdechurch, they will have to admit that it is not necessary to stay in for that reason. This means they then have to find other rationalisations to continue to cling to the skirts of the Holdechurch.

ETA:

As far as drugs and sex goes, don't kid yourselves: Remaining in the Holdechurch is no guarantee your kids will not get involved in those things - yes, even with other kids from 'good Holdeman homes'. If anything, your kids would benefit from being in an environment in which drugs and sex are not simply taboo but are actually discussed - including their risks and how to avoid them.

/

I personally know a number of great families whose children did NOT get into any trouble, in fact are in vocations including healthcare and full time ministry.

My own children are young as well, and we get many comments from other families on how incredibly well behaved our children are.

Anybody can get into ANY trouble, there are no guarantees. It's just that the trouble IN the church is more HIDDEN while those on the "outside" are more honest about what they have been through.

By the way, talk to Hank. His children have grown up very well.

(and email me if you would like to discuss more personally and privately. we could share ideas on raising young children)

>>our children are still quite small so i think it would be easier now than later for them...<<

I agree. It will be a challenge at any point in time, but it might be better now than later as the negative elements of Holdemanism will be less deeply imprinted on their psyches.

>>but we have very few friends outside the church and of course th ones we have in the church would shun us... some not by choice but because they get into trouble.<<

The question is, are your friends in the H church TRULY your friends? Or would they fade away as soon as you left. If they would, that's not true friendship, in my opinion. As far as finding new friends, yes it would take some time, but once you're out there, you'll realise there are a lot of good people around. Also, while you're likely not ready to 'out' yourself on the forum, you might find there are people you know on here or are living in your area. Something to think about.

>>also my dad and husband are partners in 2 businesses and my dad would get in trouble if he didn't get out of a partnership with an ex menno... it's all just REALLY COMPLICATED right now!!<<

I understand. It's tough when those sorts of considerations are also part of the picture.

Best wishes on sorting things out. You'll figure it out eventually. Trust God AND trust your gut feelings.

My parents saw through the "change" to extremism in the 1970's when my wife and I were separated from CGCM, and realized that things were amiss. However, they remained H and here is what my mother said to me. She said, "Hank, I understand faith as you do and I am not worried about you; but, what about your children ?" My reply was; Mother, it would be terrible if my five children or any one of them would miss salvation., but what about 5 Holdeman children lined up, all dressed correctly, all seeming to tow the line, but did not know Jesus as a personal Saviour ? She had no answer because she realized (from their perspective) that CGCM was making a turn for the worse. At that time they were wintering in Arizona and I still have letters from my mother that confirm these comments.

Our 5 children are all grown, all married, are believers and have had 10 grandchildren for us. We committed our children to the Lord, tried to train them as best we knew, gave them a new church atmosphere and tried ease the transition. Church school was not an issue for us since it was after that that H brought in their own schools.

One thing that happened is this. Hardly a day went by that I did not tell my children that baptism did not gain salvation, church membership does not gain salvation, our goodness does not obtain salvation... it is what Jesus did for us and it is for the accepting. Consequently ??, our 3 youngest have never been baptized. They are church going believers, but something stuck with them that I did not intend to stick. We talk about it, but I will not push them into baptism (as if I could; they are adults). That is their choice, in their timing.

By the way, I had my first beer and smoked my first joint while I was a member and these things were offered to me BY members in the youth.

After I left the cgcm most or all of my "worldly" friends that I met were non-drinkers, and lived cleaner and much more spiritually than I had ever imagined possible.

It's interesting that none of the holdeman's(mainly WTK, TR and Xep) who are staunch holeman's have not replied to this. Nor, do I suspect they even will. Many holemans ,I believe, are totally embarassed by the hurt trail their church has left behind. If they are not,,, they should be,, for these numbers are great. There will be an answering day soon.

WE left in 76 when our kids were 14,12,&6. All of them grew up to be christians and all are married to christians. The thing we did was send them to Bible school for a year after high school. When we left we attended a good church, Evingelical Free church in our case. Those kids sure grew spiritually big time. They were cut off from family and friends big time but well worth the price, sorry we didn't do it sooner.

Barky

Barky, thanks for posting that. You were one of the families I was thinking about. You have done a great job raising a wonderful family.

(and to think we were taught to think you guys were rank heathens, lol)

Peter Still got a bit of heathen in me!lol

Mickey... my parents left the H church back when I was in 3rd grade... they were ex'ed about a year later. This was in the late 70's during the panel/purge time. I repented of my sins and began the journey of following and serving God when I was in 6th grade. I attended church and youth group all through my years in school. I did not have sex until I was married. I have never smoked a cigarette or marijuana joint. I have never drank an alcoholic beverage or wine. I can't stand the smell of either of the those habits. I have never tried any illegal drugs. I still attend church and serve God. My husband is a youth pastor and we are teaching our children how wonderful it is to serve God and the value of making good choices concerning moral values.

Mickey08,

To comment: I left the H at 19, went to college, got a degree. Participated in many of the extracurricular activities available. Attended a small church where many of the students and faculty attended. Sang in their choir. Participated with the chorus in college and acted in the drama team.

I'm married to a wonderful christian woman. We've recently adopted 3 great kids. Still participate in a local church, drive the church bus to pick-up underpriveleged kids. Sometimes sing with the praise team. Occasionally teach the alcohol/drug recovery class.

I have yet to have my first beer or smoke a cigarette let alone a joint. My wife and I were not intimate before marriage. Yes I did know many of my H youth friends who did those things. I chose not to. There were students in college who did the same thing and I chose not to participate there either. I did have parents who taught me personal responsiblity and I guess that with me it caught.

I think that the act of leaving the H and taking responsibility for your spiritual destiny will teach your children more than you can possibly imagine. I'm assuming, of course that taking responsibility is your intention. If you would like to visit personally, my email is embedded in the login.

Be blessed.

Mark and Kris

Mickey.. I also have 2 sisters. 1 had already joined the H church and she left around the same time that my parents left. She would not have considered herself a christian during the time that she was in the H church. At this time, she is serving God and desires to do His will in her life. She was turned off of having a relationship with God for a long time due to some of the stuff she went through. If you want more of her story.. ask her here.. her name is Kimma.

My other sister was in 8th grade when my parents left. She had not joined the H church. She repented of her sins and starting serving God when she was in either 8th grade or a freshmen in high school. To my knowledge she did not have sex before marriage, did not drink alcohol and did not try any illegal drugs. She attended church and youth group during school. She went to college and has a masters in special education. She is married and has children now. Her husband is a christian and high up in the nursing field where he can run a clinic. Both of them are active in their church and desire to raise their children to serve God and make good moral choices.

Mickey.. one of the biggest things that influenced me... is watching my parents decide to serve God fully. I would watch them read their Bibles comparing what preachers say with the Bible and discussing it. They would pray for people and witness to them as God would lead. I saw God answer prayers and move in their lives. I watched and still do see that they continue to forgive and love their H relatives who continue to be offensive (and the offensive word is my input not necessarily theirs) towards them by continuing to hold the avoidance on them.

On a sidenote.. my parents are still married to each other, they don't drink or smoke and they attend church. (They are CalledOut on here.. if you want to ask them any questions.)

Mickey
I left because I was tempted of the devil and fell into Gross Immorality. I could not seem to pick myself up from some of my temptations and since I thought I was going to hell anyway I might as well have as much fun as possible. It was Wine Wimmen and Song for about 6 or 7 years. Plus a few drugs, When I was sick and tired of the life and I was about to Give up God sent a lovely lady who trusted and loved and adored me and I lived saintly for her for 11 months until she died as the result of an Auto accident. I came very close to death at that time and never did want to fall into such sins again. The next year was rough and although I did not get into drug trafficking I was not exactly saintly. Then I met another beautiful lady who married me and we raised 2 children and adopted another. I remember when the second one was a baby I battled with smoking and although I prayed daily for God leading and guiding I could not seem bo beat the habit. It was only when I totally gave up and wept to God that he freed me from the habit. We did our best to raise the Children as christians and then 3 months short of 26 years of marriage she went to meet her reward. It was always in the back of my mind or in my subconsciece that I would need to get right with the Church I was born into and baptised into in order to reach heaven. Many times I prayed and asked God for forgiveness and it seemed I still had an unwillingness to go back to what I had failed at twice.
I did know that the sins I had committed (Fornication) was definitley against God's word. And I had no hatered for those who refused to shake my hand or eat at the same table. I did a lot of study of John Holdeman's books, Menno Simon's writings, and other Holdeman oriented literature. It was when I became willing to do what it takes to rejoin that I got a Peace that is still there. However it was at the same time that God showed me many scriptures that pointed me to His way. It is NOT the church that saves you from your sins or from Hell.
I strongly believe that one should not forsake the gathering together with his people.

I mentioned having 3 children, A forth one found me 2 years ago looking for her Natural Father. She looks almost indestiquishable from her two half sisters and it would be a worthless to argue. Although concieved in Sin she has been a Fantastic blessing to me.

2 of my 4 children are committed to living a Christ based life.
1 says he is an atheist.

Considering my past I think God has blessed me beyond what I deserve. In fact I thank him every day for his blessings.

It is more important to have a relationship with Christ, Study his word. Have devotion with your family and find a Church that you can worship together with the people. And I doubt if you will find one that is perfect.

My Prayers are with you and your Family

Herman

I think the danger is not so much raising children "in the world" as it is the transition from such a sheltered life, and all the rejection and dissolution of former beliefs, that is tricky. It is a fine balance, and requires much prayer. If the parents are united in what they are doing, if they pray and walk carefully, it will work out.

VirSis; you are right on. Parents have a responsibility to train their children, but ultimately individual children must make their own choices. If we set everything before them, they do not learn responsibility.

Here was how my wife and I approached child training. When they got to the age where they needed to make decisions (different circumstances at different ages) we told them what we believed, what we thought was right for them, but let them make certain decisions. When we trust kids, or if they feel they have the parents trust, it creates obligation to live up to such trust. If we do not show respect and trust, then if they err, they feel they are just doing what was expected of them anyway. It is extremely important to allow individuals to develop responsibility. Of course, with this comes possibilities of goof ups and the consequences it brings when goofs occur.

I would think long and hard about what your being told. There's more here than meets the eye. What some folks call Christan isn't. Just be sure you pray for Gods direction in your decision and He will give you light.

wtk.. and who are you are saying is not a christian by your statement "I would think long and hard about what your being told. There's more here than meets the eye. What some folks call Christan isn't." ?????

I do agree with this statement..."Just be sure you pray for Gods direction in your decision and He will give you light."

thank you all for the support! we are praying about it and we will see how the Lord directs our lives. Pray for us and our little guys!!

Mickey, You have my prayers,

There is simply no answer for your concerns, except for you to listen to the voice you hear in the "closet".


May God guide you.

By the way Mickey, just a word of advice, if you're going to do it, the younger your kids are, the easier it will be. Do it now if you're going to do it.

Mickey,we are in the same dilemma.We are somewhat settled in the H church,but I am liberal when it comes to things that the church deems worldly.We have the internet in our home.I allow the kids to play games and listen to music on the computer.(Yes only accapella gospel.)When we travel we watch the TV in the motel and will visit a adventure park if we get close to one.I feel we have a well rounded out home.We have regular family times where we read the Bible and discuss spiritual matters.I feel the church that I belong to is a great place to fellowship,hear the gospel and raise a family.Now,here's the dilemma.Even though my wife and I are in good standing with the church and we can give a clear testimony of the leading of the Holy Spirit in our lives we do not follow the MO of a typical H home.Now as our children get older and get converted they are and will be subjected to the annual scrutiny of a panel of staff members.This is done with all the youth whether they are struggling spiritually or not.When they go through these inquisitions they will probably be asked questions that would incriminate the order of our home.We want to stay in the church and I believe it is the right place for us.However in recent years it has began to fall away from true Holy Spirit led leadership and the leaders are becoming too legalistic. All of my wifes family and all of mine are in the church and if we would leave it would hurt a lot of people, including us and the children.How can we continue this charade and stay open and honest before God.I wish some of my fellow H would respond to these questions,but I guess they are afraid.

P.S email me at jalen08@gmail.com

Jalen said, We have the internet in our home.I allow the kids to play games and listen to music on the computer.(Yes only accapella gospel.)When we travel we watch the TV in the motel and will visit a adventure park if we get close to one.


You sound pretty normal to me. I think a lot of your brethren do the same. Don't you? Or maybe I am just in a liberal area.

Jalen,

I also have the internet. We, however, have a pretty strict stand against using the computer (including the internet) for entertainment purposes. We in the past have allowed some "harmless" games (for example, Monopoly) on our computer, but have since deleted those as well. I did not do it because I found a verse that said "thou shalt not have games on the computer", I did it because I believe it is in the best interest of my children's spiritual life. Same goes for TV in the motel. Same goes for you-tube and such sites.

I believe very strongly in the Biblical parrallel of "as in the days of Noah". In that day, most people had so far removed themselves from truth that they had confused even themselves. Instead they mocked Noah for building an ark in the wilderness, far from any ocean. Noah had clear direction to do so, and he obviously didn't use the reasoning of men to do what he did, in fact, it looked downright foolish to the world looking on. It didn't follow the reasoning, natural law, and such like that Scott often talks about. However, when the flood came, there were only 8 people, consisting of Noah's own family, on the ark. The New Testament refers to this incident when speaking of the last days, when knowledge shall be increased.

So when I decide things for my family, it isn't necessarily based on a technical "where in the Bible does it say", rather it is based on letting the whole Gospel work in my life.

I believe that most of the amusements and attractions are a part of the devil's scheme to draw men away from God. I don't even question slightly that the TV and internet play a huge part in this scheme.

Why not find a constructive alternative to the things you are allowing? For example, instead of listening to music, learn to sing and make the music.

When you are building a house, you don't get it built by sitting on the sidelines and watching it get built, you get it built by physically applying yourself. Why would your spiritual house be any different?

Just some thoughts...

Mickey,

I don't necessarily believe that everything will (immediately) fall apart in your family if you leave the CGCM. However, I do believe that the chance of such does in fact greatly increase.


If I had grown up in the same environment as some of my relation, I don't think I would be a Christian today. Oh sure, I may profess to be, but I believe I would have followed the path that many do, and fell in to marrying someone I later couldn't find a way to get along with, I wouldn't have the influence I have now regarding child training, etc. etc.

Like Steve said, being members of the CGCM is no 100% guarantee that your children won't fall in to sin. I did. However, I knew without question what I was doing was wrong. I knew that the way to get right with God was only by my repentance, and the saving blood of Christ. I knew if I would turn my life around and commit myself to God instead of living for myself, He would be my strength to live above the vices I was falling in to. I knew all this not because my home was necessarily a stable home, but probably more so because of the church I go to. I deeply appreciate that. At one time in my life, I eventually came to the decision that I was either going to follow those principles, or find another path. I chose the principles I had been taught, because of the effect they had on my life, and on others whom I observed (both those that were a part of the CGCM, and those that were not). That still affects me today.

Further more, I know that some of the churches, even ones that, say, 50 years ago, would have been viewed as conservative, but today have lost a lot of that reputation, no longer are as clear concerning the things of the self life. There is a tolerance for sin that should not be. People are trying to mix man's reasoning in with the power of God, and it isn't working. If it was, the gay issue wouldn't even be an issue in any churches. It would be clear that such a life style is sin. But that isn't clear anymore, false prophets are teaching a gospel that soothes the itching ears of man. They are teaching that one can live for ones self and still be a Christian. One can live his own life like he thinks it should be lived, and still be a Christian. Such a view is not Scriptural, and I feel like leading my family down that road would be a serious error on my part.

TR, you raise some good points, but I consider it the duty of the parents to have th final decision, not the duty of the conference. As WTK says he thought that stuff was "normal" and it probably is in his place, but not here let me tell you. This is toe the mark and kiss the holdetoes of the preacher.

Parents are to do as they are told, and fear the preacher here. It simply made me sick, I couldn't stand it.

As Jaleen and Micky attempt to work their way through the minefield of holdeman clutches, they surely do need a friend!


My advise is to be honest, and if the Lord leads you out, think about it, if honesty leads you out of a place, why would you want to be there in the first place?

You don't have to quit the church, simply start being honest and the church will quit you!


Now what kind of Christians punish honesty?

Jalen,

Going to put in my two cents so take it for what it's worth. You mentioned the only difference you have with the church is a few "things".

My personal experience is to leave for "things" is unsuccessful. You'll be back and the "good standing" is gone. You've done nothing but destroy their trust in you and it's not easy if impossible to earn it back.

If your ready to believe that God does exist outside those four walls and you can have a spirit filled, meaningful relationship with Him then you will be successful. The things you learn and the discoveries you make will be worth the drama your leaving will cause.

Trust me, I know

but I consider it the duty of the parents to have th final decision, not the duty of the conference.

Fred, I don't know if I've ever heard you expound on Luke 14:26. How do you align your statement above with this verse?

"The things you learn and the discoveries you make will be worth the drama your leaving will cause."

Amen Deb. Been there done that. It is the best thing that happened to our family.

Dale

but I consider it the duty of the parents to have th final decision, not the duty of the conference.

Fred, I don't know if I've ever heard you expound on Luke 14:26. How do you align your statement above with this verse?
f


26* If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.


27* And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.


Eph 6:1* Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
Col 3:20* Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.


Um... Who does the word tell children to obey? regardless of whether they hate them or not?

Here is the holde-hoopla twisted interpretation!


Eph 6:1* Children, obey rules and traditions of the conference whether in the Lord or not and wheter written or not!: for this is right.
Col 3:20* Children, obey your ministers in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.

help me out here tr, exlain to me where you are coming from?


May God richly Bless your day!

Why not find a constructive alternative to the things you are allowing? For example, instead of listening to music, learn to sing and make the music.

I agree with TR. I have the internet also.We also have a computer in the house.Maybe I don't have such a hard fast rule against games as TR but I don't allow my children to "play" on the internet.We have used it together on school activities such as research reports,biographies etc.We have accumulated some A Capella songs over the years and have listened to them at times.However my rule is moderation.I have noticed that if I forbid any use of the computer or internet the children are drawn to it by some unseen attraction.We are a family that loves to sing together.We spend a lot of time outside playing ball riding bike and skateboarding.I have noticed that the more we do together as a family the less the kids want to spend time glued to a computer or electronic game.We also do a lot of sightseeing etc. when we travel.Sea World is fun but we have had our best family times hiking to a beautiful waterfall or tubing or rafting down a clear cool river.God has created such a beautiful world and it seems we can never see enough of it.

Mickey and Jalen,God has a plan for you.Whatever you do make sure that He is in full control.As has been stated if you leave for "things"you will not find happiness in them.Only Jesus can satisfy your soul.


Mr. Gomez

I maybe don't agree totally with everything Herb said (or maybe implied as I saw it) but he does say it well. You may notice that as you rely fully on God (rather than the church) that some of those things you allow you may see what they really are and gain true conviction on them and some of the things you may actually see the good in them that you may have missed because of trying to 'hide' them. As an example, music is a taboo thing with Holdemans but as I listened to music I became very inspired and saw the truth in very many songs that I hadn't seen before. I know many Holdemans have a strong temptation to listen to evil music but when I turned to Truth, I had a strong conviction about what I listened to and I feel I have been strongly blessed by that conviction. I can freely listen to music that edifies while having a conviction to refrain from music that is a bad influence. And the 'things' will sort themselves out when you face the Truth.

**And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.**

Tirone-
>As an example, music is a taboo thing with Holdemans but as I listened to music I became very inspired and saw the truth in very many songs that I hadn't seen before.<

Talking about music for inspiration, back in the early 90's computers were just coming on the scene and I had a new one but back then there was no youtube or hardly any music on there. During that time I was really sick with very high blood pressure and severe headaches with a very serious health problem and my wife was working and my children were in school and reading was pretty much out of the question so I had to have something for inspiration. So I got a cassette player and had some gospel singing tapes like the Inspirations, Chuchwagon gang, Jim Reeves,etc. That's what kept me from going totally bonkers. I remember laying on the floor one day going through one tape after the next just to keep my mind off myself and all my problems. And I felt totally justified in doing that. With the H not believing in recorders I couldn't take one to church and tape any singing or sermons and being sick I didn't go to church very much so you tell me, where was I supposed to get inspiration from? Even listening to a few songs just on Sunday didn't cut it with me. I had to have more than that. I and my family were/are singers but with our situation then it just wasn't conducive to spend time singing. So there needs to be some exceptions.

I had a post all nicely done for this thread on fri and my cat walked across the keyboard and deleted it for me.
Mickey, Jalen, spedals My heart goes out to you and your current struggles.

I will say that the fear of having children because of the conditions around us or whatever we can think of does not come from God. Children are a blessing from God and should always be looked upon as such. In our current society we have lost the treasure that our children should mean to us because of fear of the unknown.

Search the scriptures, live your life in the true grace and forgiveness of our living God, learn to accept yourselves for who you are, not for who others expect you to be. teach your children to live life based on christian principles at all times, no matter where they are and who they are with. Teach them how to truly love the unloveable. It is humanly impossible for us to keep our selves and our families from ever being hurt. But we can learn to love thru the hurt and forgive and learn to love the person that hurts us, especialy if we learn to recognise that hurting people, hurt people. teach them to not judge others by externals. richness, poverty, niceness and meanness are relative and are really not what the person is really about. Many mean people have been won to Christ by children's unjudgemental love.

We are somewhat of an oddity here in that we were exed 12 yrs ago and did not just leave but raised our 7 children in the H church as we attended as Ex's. consiquently we have 6 children that are members, 3 of those are married H's. 1 son still lives at home, attends the H faithfully but for reasons unknown to us or him, they have diligently refused to baptise him for 3 yrs.
4 of them have served in units. another is currently CDR personel. I have made this observation lately. The more they have a relationship with Christ the less our differences, and the less judgemental they are. When they are going thru a struggle or are slack in their spiritual life, the more critical they are of us and the more judgemental they are of all that are outside the H. I think this could be said of all H. and also of all EX's. And really of the world of christian's in general. We are currently observing much church confusion in many places and many hurting people changing places of worship and criticising those that leave their presence. this phenomonym is not limited to the H group but encompasses all the christian world as we know it.
It seems to me that Satan is working overtime to destroy and kill as many Christians as he can. He is not killing them by taking their life, he is taking their souls instead, by riches, cares of life, hurts, fears, and general despair.
We are currently doing a project at church called 40 days of community on learning to live within the Christian community and reach out to those around us that need our Saviour and bring them into the Christian community.
One of the things that was pointed out was that we as Americans are very independant and often times it is this very independance that separates us as Christians. I see a lot of truth in that. Unless we are going to learn to work together we are going to continually fail as Christians. And we are going to continue to (do as you see here often times) Chew each other up and spit em out, instead of learn to love and serve as Christ did.

Love and prayers, Locklady

We all have a chance to choose what we are going to do in life... i felt that i wanted to be an outstanding citizen and just becuz i left the Holdeman's was no excuse to make a mess out of my life. I chose to do to find a career and make a difference in my life. I believe that some of it came from the upbringing i got. It helps to put a foundation for my values and beliefs today. Children are quick to catch things and things stay with you for life too. Gotta believe that we are making a difference that way too.