This topic is probably more sensitive than all others to an XH. In my years as an X, I've gone from submission to who-cares to anger about this. It's not so much that I want to deny the H the right to interpret scripture how they believe, but I am horrified at the net effect that this interpretation has on the everyday lives of those affected. The more I observe, the more tragic this unthinkable practice seems.
The basis for this practice seems simple enough: 1) Matt 18:15-17 = excommunication 2) I Cor 5:11 = avoidance
I have no problem with either of these scriptures, when each is taken in the proper context and on its own merits. I wouldn't call these major Biblical points, but they are practical teachings worthy of consideration in the right time and place. Just like the mixing of two otherwise inert chemicals can produce a deadly result, it is the (improper) mixing of these distinctly different teachings into a single "doctrine" that creates a new monster that is so totally inhumane and unscriptural. It is not the practice of each of these things that is bad, but practicing them in parallel as though they were one and the same, that is a sad disaster.
In the teaching of the H church, excommunication and avoidance are always practiced simultaneously. They begin at the same time, end at the same time, and are practiced against the same people. You can't have one without the other. The problem with that is that the "rules" regarding each each of these teachings was very different. Excommunication comes about by an offense that is verified first by one, then by several, then by the church (assembly). Nothing at all is mentioned here about avoiding the offender. Avoidance is only to be practiced against someone that commits specific sins while claiming to be a brother. Those specific sins are listed in the verse.
One issue that comes to mind is that the H have some odd reasoning where even a person that has been excommunicated is still considered a "brother", making the avoidance applicable until the end of time against that person. However, all you have to do to prove that this is incorrect even in their way is to look at the Messenger of Truth, when weddings are announced. The names of any expelled parents are never preceeded with "Bro." or "Sis.". So this proves that they no longer consider them a brother or sister. Therefore the avoidance per I Cor 5:11 should not apply.
Brent
You are soo right. With the legalism one sees, And the difference of handling the avoidance sometimes I do not know whether to laugh or cry. I KNOW whom I believe, I KNOW God has forgiven my Sins. Some in that Church are caught between a Rock and a Hard Place. I believe they are convinced that I am forllowing God. However they are not convinced that it is for them to leave. And if they stay they need to follow its rules. In fact I think some have admiration for me for following my convictions - But they cannot do speak out and do the same. I do not know what the solution is for them. I must follow God's leading. I think they need our prayer, Especially the leaders of the group.
A Man Convinced against his will is of the same opinion Still.
My 2 cents (part) from a long discussion of last fall. We might ask, which is worse? To wash the feet and partake the bread and cup with a hypocrite? Or to cast one out of the assembly who Jesus has healed/accepted ? We should always lean to the side of mercy and forgiveness.
TR, I do not claim to have everything right; and I also admit that to a certain extent we are products of our experiences in life. What impresses us or just how we often believe debatable issues, may be shaped by how we have had to cope with those issues. What we may consider to be lax, we likely will tighten up on, and what we consider to be too tight, we will loosen up on. I have said in the past that I see a different biblical excommunication then what came on in the 1970's.
Firstly, excommunication is for unrepentant stubborn sinners who turn their back on God. It NEVER should be used on any sin, regardless what the sin may be... if the person acknowledges, repents and seeks reconciliation. If you want to base your understanding on excommunication on what Menno Simons writes, then you would change your practice as fast as you can (at least the practice as of mid 1970s).
Secondly, it was only the Dutch arm of the early Anabaptists churches that taught "tough" excommunication, and the practice caused constant friction between the churches; not a good witness to the community. My view is that excommunication and avoidance should be a "non-formal issue", practiced personally where blatant deceit is in evidence. Where one does not try to hypocritically hide his sin, another approach may be in order.
If we are to follow the example of Christ then we would freely and deliberately mix and minister to the sinners and outcasts of this world. Paul taught and debated in the Synagogues and streets whenever he had a chance. The church of today (not only H) in my opinion, have isolated themselves far to much from their "neighbors" including such who have left off of faith. The best evangelism is to create relationships with people ( 1 Cor. 9:19-23; ...to the Jew I became as a Jew...). Paul certainly did not mean with this to partake of another's sin, but rather to identify with the inner need of others. It is when we acknowledge our own errors and the temptations we deal with ourselves, that we can effectively minister to those who struggle or are out of fellowship. Our constant need of Christ is no different then the needs of open sinners. For dealing with sinners, I read Gal 6 to say that we are to gently help others bear their load, being careful to lay aside our (potential) conceit which breeds an attitude of intolerance of error in others, and causes one to think he is above failure. This is not the way to deal with discouraged sinners.
Having said this, we must understand that the scriptures teach admonition, correction and restoration of sinners. For me, this is a hard area to practice... .
They will never give it up, primarily because the general eduacation level of an H (both formal and informal) is so low that they have no comprehension of what they are actually doing on a emotional/psychological level. Second of all, they won't give it up because it works. I'm sorry it works, but it does. It works for the wrong reason, but who cares. Imagine a groom wooing his bride with threats of excommunication and avoidance, and imagine using emotional violence to encourage a love affair with the Christ. When you ponder it, it staggers our minds, but again, they are a primitive people with minds still running in the sixteenth century where physical and emotional violence were standard.
Avoidance works because acceptance, connection, and belonging are one of a human's most primary needs. Does one actually believe for a nano-second that a fascist system would give up its methodologies of inflicting pain in order to gain submission? Not only NO, but HELL NO! Inflicting pain for non-compliance is at least 2/3s of their control. They know that they could never draw most of us on a positive basis. Now they will defend this by saying that the bible teaches it, but clearly, they desperately want the bible to teach it. If the bible flat-out commanded to not do it, they would twist it until it was the apposite. When some ex-H ignoramus gives his/her typical testimony of how thankful they are for the avoidance, it ALWAYS reeks of fascist submission and breaking of the spirit.
Bottom line is that rejection works, and it works good, but it does not help one to love God.
This message has been edited by oldmanrip on Aug 12, 2008 8:11 AM
sad,,,it is so very sad. I was asking my husband yesterday about if we are really supposed to use these avenues of excomm. and avoidance and he said yes probably they apply but it is so rare and far from what Jesus would want us to do that it is hardly heard of in Christianity. I told him about the type prayers that VS mentioned that the H pray for the return of people to "the fold" and he said that reeks of anti-Christ.
I have spent an awful lot of time here on this forum in my meager little way to show the love of Christ and how much I know he loves each and every person weather they are steeped in sin or just huaman sinning as we will in the flesh.
There comes a time when a person who is merely a bystander can look at the accident and say "yep it's horrible but I can't help"..that's me.
My husband and family and the Lord have been very patient with me spending all this time thinking, praying, trying to get people to see the love of Christ does work to change lives. It's not about punishment.
This whole Holdeman tribe,,I can only hear the echo of my sons words when about a year ago he said,,,"mom they are not just wrong they are deceived."
I have nothing more to offer, It's in the Lords hands.
Caution: This forum may contain statements and comments that are offensive. If you are easily offended, please exit this forum now.
By using this forum you agree to be accountable and liable for your post's. All postings are the responsibility of the posting participant. The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the management.
