Just curious! I know of only two - but that's logical since I'm not a member and wasn't around the CGCM as an adult paying attention to this.

Gerald Mininger (our minister here in Greeley - a wonderful soul)
Jake H. Loewen (my grandpa - the man who showed me Christ's love no matter WHAT choices I made in life - and I made some doozies!!)

How often is a minister expelled? And are they expelled in the same manner - with the congregation voting? I know Gerald wasn't. LOL!! Actually - if the Greeley congregation would have been asked to vote on ANY of the expelling that happened there during the purge it would have been rather hilarious. Nobody was really asking to be gone from the CGCM. They were just completely aware that their unwillingness to give up bible studies - and their believe in Justification by Faith and Grace alone and not works - had them in really hot water with the church and that they were likely to be ex'd. But if the congregation had to vote themselves out?? lol Yeah - not likely. So obviously there are times that some group of ministers or such make the decisions outside of a congregation's sight - and outside of their church-given 'jurisdiction' of voting on the expelling of a member.

So -curious. How does a minister come to get expelled - and can church members bring that up to other ministers if they feel that something a minister has done deserves expelling?

Curious in Greeley.

Sophia asked "I asked in another thread and still am wondering...what's the difference between all these terms?:

benched
expelled
excommunication"
I'll share what I've seen and this may vary over the conference.
If there is enough complaint from the laity regards a particular minister, he will eventually be benched, meaning he can no longer preach or function as a leader until farther notice. I'm not totally sure if the congregation votes on this one, I think it will often be done by the CCC board.
Discussions will continue with the benched minister over a period of time, possibly up to 4 years, if it appears there is no change of behaviour or attitude, the minister will probably be asked to repent of his misdeeds. This in most cases will be voted on by the congregation.
There will again be given time and repeated visits will often be made with the minister, if there is hardness or an impenitent spirit felt by the ministers "his own peers" and no change, he will probably be excommunicated or expelled. Same thing. It is my impression that if a minister is preaching apostasy or has been involved in immorality or outright lying they will be expelled immediately with very little visiting done.
This is somewhat the way it is done now. I believe that 30-40 years ago, there was much less care-fullness in the way a minister would be dealt with. I saw some close acquaintances, (VS's father for instance) handled very rudely with little attempt made at reconciliation. I still don't really know what the true issue was, and he doesn't either. But he still isn't preaching today almost 40+ years to the day he was benched. I'm not quite that old to remember everything about the situation, but my father was a very close friend. I'm quite sure this would be handled a little differently today, along with your grandpa, (who I also knew well) and Gerald Miniger (who is also an acquaintance). I am not saying this behaviour is right or wrong and I will not defend any of these people for the actions they have taken, I am just answering your questions.

Hey Forreal! Thanks! Good to 'talk' to you again. I had no idea that you knew VS's father. I must be confused about who is from where...

but that aside - thank you for answering. I know that Grandpa wasn't benched - and have suspected - or inferred (this is a delicate conversation item for even the H in our family,as you can imagine - much less me with my bull-headed questions jumping in to something I don't know much about!! lol) that this was not due to the laity bringing concerns to the ministers of the church. It was instead his peers - including the relative who later apologized to him for his motives - who took that action against Grandpa. I couldn't imagine the decision of his expelling even being brought to the congregation as I have never heard ANY bad word against grandpa except from those men - so to have a congregation vote in the majority to have him expelled - that would be surprising unless there was serious fear of repercussions of not voting that way. Anyway - the benching makes sense. I think that is something that should exist in any church - the ability for the laity to speak up in concern about a leader. I definitely ran into a problem with a pastor when I was still a teenager - I spoke up - but to the wrong person (and no - this wasn't in the CGCM) - and at the time my concern was doused. But i found out years later that his sudden taking of another position elsewhere in the conference was because I wasn't the only one who had brought concerns. It just was never publicized - and he became some other poor congregation's problem. rolls eyes NOT a solution for a bad minister.

Anyway - thank you. Now I have a couple other questions coming from that.

CCC - what's that? You speakin' H at me again!!??

VS - is your dad still in the church? What is your relationship with him at this point?

I, too, would hope that things would be handled differently with Grandpa than they were 20 years ago. As for Gerald - while the shunning was painful for everybody - Gerald being expelled by a minister's vote isn't any more surprising than anybody who was expelled in Greeley. As I said - they all knew it was coming when they were not allowed to select their own ministers for meetings that year...and when Gerald stood up during revivals and asked the visiting minister to stop speaking and that the meetings were over - well that was kind of the nail in the proverbial 'to be expelled' coffin. But the only people who weren't happy about that decision were the four families who WEREN'T expelled and who left the community pretty promptly after that. The rest of the congregation was bonded in Bible Study and prayer with Gerald and fully supported him in his action as their minister. Grandpa - yeah - that one bugs me because of the reasons behind it. Gerald being expelled? Never bothered me any more than my own parents being expelled. Gerald is a precious man to me.

btw - saw a picture of Gerald taken earlier this summer at a Regehr family reunion that we didn't make it to - and noted that he had injured his arm in some way and was in a sling. He's definitely aged lately. That's hard to watch happen.

Sophia, forreal and I started out in the same congregation (many years ago) but we have since both wandered off in different directions (I patting my bun and smoothing my apron, and he muttering into his beard and tugging his suspenders). His dad was a good friend of my dad's and among a number of others was always a faithful and loyal supporter. My dad had a lot of them; in his case, like your granddad, it seemed that the only ones who really wanted him gone were his fellow ministers, and not even all of them. There were those who privately told him that if he would leave and start a new movement they would go with him. That wasn't his agenda though. He didn't want to disrupt, and so he let their offers slide. I wonder what would have happened if he had taken them up on it. Most people probably don't know those details. In any case, he is 87 now, still lives in his own house and drives his own car, and raises his garden. Our relationship has had to undergo some adjustments in the last few years. I think he felt personally insulted when I turned my back on the church that he loved so much, as though it was a personal rejection of him and his parenting of me. I also think that he felt that he had done a good thing by keeping the family structure intact by not leaving the church at that time.(It required a good deal of swallowing to keep that load of dead carp from heaving back up)And so when I lost interest in it, I think he felt I was disdaining his sacrifice. He probably doesn't understand that I am glad he stayed at the time, but in point of fact, I didn't have a choice. I was never asked if I wanted to take a boot right in the middle of my rear end. And all efforts to mend fences failed. I guess he wanted me to live on the fringes, begging for a crust from them. It was when I actually loudly turned against them and began speaking out against "our ministers" that he had trouble being nice to me...for the first time in all my 54 years. Sad. But we're getting used to it and working it out.

VS- thanks for sharing more of your story. And it makes more sense now - cuz I had you and Forreal in two different states - and that threw me for a bit! People move - who knew!! lol

I'm glad that your relationship with your father is adjusting. Sounds like a very active man - love that!! My great-grandpa was like that. He was driving his tractor at 94 - and making a few people nervous too! But I always figured that dying on a tractor doing what you love out in the fresh air was better than dying in a rocking chair penned up in a home if that's not where he needed to be, health wise. Unfortunately - that's where he ended up over some family objections. But I digress...

I have always felt that my grandparents were best suited exactly where they were - inside of the CGCM. So I understand your sentiment on that. I can understand that it pained him to have you speak against the ministers as well - and am glad you're working through that with him.

Honestly - I have supported my aunts/uncles staying in the CGCM as well as long as they could do so without compromising their faith. Where I have begun to struggle is with my cousins. My aunts were raised by my grandpa - and I know they have the same faith. Be they in the CGCM or not. They married men who have been accepting of my mother and her family as well. That is a true blessing. But I wonder sometimes whether that will always be the case with my cousins. Will they find mates/spouses who are accepting of us black sheep who are no less part ofthe family than we were in 1972? Or will they find mates who are of a more conservative H bent and insist on beginning shunning on my parents - and on attempts to convert me?

That's where I see it getting tough for parents in the CGCM who are questioning the church's doctrine - and may even be feeling the leading of the Holy Spirit to leave. If they leave while their children are young - they break with their parents/aunts/uncles. Painful to be sure. And depending on the family - they may be ostracized. But if they wait until their children have spouses and children themselves - it becomes increasingly difficult. Do you leave your CHILDREN and GRANDCHILDREN? This is where I hear the pain in Bryon and Sherri's story. I truly wish that more people had families like my mom's. It wasn't perfect - but it weathered the storm of expelling.

I am glad that you are weathering that storm with your dad as well. God's blessings...

I know of two ministers that were expelled but don't know all the circumstances... but know a little about both. I believe both were from the Montezuma Congregation (?)

- Ervy Unruh
- Ervin Harms

I think quite a few ministers were expelled in the paneling. Harry Wenger was expelled and had to be re-ordained. Milton Boehs was expelled a few years ago and had the dickens of a time getting back in. Never was ordained again. I believe Xep has an uncle who was expelled. Never ordained again. It does happen every now and again, but I think more and more, they are trying to avoid it. Doesn't look good you know. TR< was your granddad ever expelled? He was benched I know, but not sure if he was ever expelled. It seems that would have been done just for good measure.

Was Ervy expelled? Or just benched 'forever'? He's passed now - right? If I'm remembering the right man - he was Inez Unruh's father. Love that lady!! She's a crotchety as they come - but I've been drawn to her since I was a little girl and everybody found her to be a loud-mouthed opinionated so-and-so!! lol AND (shhhh) she's a DEMOCRAT!!!

So where these two expelling incidents near the same time? Anything to do with the purge timeframe? Or was this more recent?

No, you have the wrong man there. Inez Unruh's father was not a minister. Don't ever recall him being disciplined by the church. Maybe forreal knows. I thought he was quite faithful. Wrote The Helpless Poles.

Sophia, the CCC also known as the triple C stands for Conference Counseling Committee. I think it's seven men that are elected at annual meeting. Usually they are put into play when a staff has an internal disagreement. They are considered some of the "top dogs" of the church. I've seen where they are called to a church with a problem and they will spend 600.00+ on a plane ticket to get them together for a day or two.
My father in law was on it. I told him that if the congregation was given the authority to deal with the problem you could save the church a lot of money. In fact, you could eliminate the CCC. That never seemed to go over very well

I know of a minister who has been permanently benched but never expelled. I think it was a unique case and not sure how that all works but he was benched for many years and finally he was just completely relieved of his office and would now have to be re-ordained if that ever came up, but I think the reason he was benched was because he was just not preacher material.

**And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.**

I know of two ministers expelled here in the east. One was expelled for hiding the fact that his son, also a member, was playing hide the salami. The other was having emotional problems so he was expelled just to get him out of the office. He is back in the church but to this day he doesn't know why he was expelled or why he was reaccepted.

I told him that if the congregation was given the authority to deal with the problem you could save the church a lot of money. In fact, you could eliminate the CCC. That never seemed to go over very well

Yea Byron, I believe they wouldn't like that. Can you imagine the H with authority that appeared like the bible teaches?


The congregation could just fire the liars at the first bell!



_____

VS, I didn't realize your pops was pushing so hard over your leaving them. What in the world does he want, they would never let you back in!

But what struck me was the idea that his offense is grounded in the "sacrifice" he made to stay in there.

My hat is off to the H's that defer integrity, to remain H, for I totally recognize that sacrifice, however the sacrifice is an abomination, and one of the greatest spiritual sins a man can commit against the Holy Ghost. May God wake is all up to the sacrifice of abomination.

Fred, you have to remember that my dad is 87. I watch his face when we talk about it sometimes, and I can see that the effort of thinking it through is too much for him. He is remembering the church he grew up in, the one he raised his family in, the one that I myself was sentimental about. It was a safe place and he doesn't trust the world around him, and with good reason, of course. It's crazy. He is too old to think it through anymore.

That is cool VS, I was piping off, and not considering the nurture involved. I've seen lots of people be mean to and "write off" their kids over religious disagreement.

I'm glad you have empathy for him though.

Fred: You probably weren't aware of this but VS's father was practically my surrogate father for a time when I was young. He spent so much time with my real father, in fact even farmed with my dad for a period of time. It seemed like he had time for me and I truly love him. I admired him for his kind, generous nature and somewhat affable way about him. He was present at my father's funeral a few years ago and after the funeral he was with family and I had a long talk with him about what had happened so many years ago. In my view point, he was badly misrepresented by an elder minister who probably was somewhat power hungry and finally admitted some on his death bed. It appeared through all of this turmoil, VS's father kept his head above the tempest even tho he was hurt to the heart. I know this was a very sad time for me and especially for my father. Ervy Unruh was a young staff member in that congregation at the time and his father was the elder minister if I recall correctly.

VS - thanks for the clarification on Ervy Unruh/Inez. Hopefully I didn't start some mad rumor in the H grapevine!!

Bryon - thanks for the answer on the CC. lol at your FIL not taking kindly to the elimination of the committee he served on! Isn't there a 'problem committee' or some such as well? Or is this a new name for that old committee (thinking back to purge time).


Tirone -
How can somebody not be 'preacher material' if the only way that somebody is called to the ministry is through the calling of the Holy Spirit on men who step forward and tap somebody and say 'you. You are called'. Isn't that how it is done? Does this mean the Holy Spirit was wrong the first time around? Or does this mean that somebody got His message wrong? If so - please tell me that they didn't take communion during that time they were wrong - for that would surely discount the validity of that communion - would it not?

YES - sarcasm and rhetorical questions.

To the Sinnick:
How horrifying that somebody was expelled due to emotional problems. But - are we dealing with H lingo here? Is 'emotional problems' another word for 'mental illness'? If so - which is how I was interpreting - how horrible that somebody would be sent to hell for an illness. What's next? Diabetics? Sometimes they get foggy in the brain when low on sugar you know. Might not do well to have a foggy mind in the purity. YES I'm being sarcastic. But I'm truly horrified at this being a reason for expelling. And does this mean he was re-accepted without repentance? Yes - I know this happens. Not publicized - but I have original testimony to that fact. But that would mean that he was judged as going to hell for some period of time and never knew his sin - nor what magic was wrought to bring him from the pits of hell to the possibility of heavenly gates again?

Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practise to deceive! Sir Walter Scott

"Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practise to deceive! Sir Walter Scott"


Oh Sophia,,, are you SURE that Sir Walter said that? If remember right, it was Andy Taylor on the
Andy Griffth Show,,,, episode 24, entitled, "The Jewel Thief" !!

BTW, I know of no minister that did a 180 like Ervin Harms!! Mercy me!!

lol@Andy Griffith. Cute. And no - I'm not sure! Googled and cut/pasted.

Gotta say 'HUH???' to your comment on somebody doing a 180. Which circumstance is this referring to? Somebody found to not be fit after all? Emotional problems? And DOES that mean mental illness? Cuz a LOT of us suffer from mental illness...hope it doesn't surprise anybody to see us in heaven!?

Sophia

I used the term "emotional illnes" to differentiate from a "mental illnes", one which can be clinically diagnosed and usually is of organic origion.

Emotional illness, on the other hand is difficult to diagnose. We call it depression, lack of self-esteem, inferiority complex, and a number of other buzzwords with flexible meanings.

This particular minister was not raised in a Holdeman, or even a christian home. He came from a very troubled home situation. He lost his father as a young boy. When he met the Lord, he was very sincere. He moved to a small congregation in PA. and joined the H. It was a troubled congregation with many growing pains. I do not know the details of his expulsion or his reacceptance. All he told me was that he didn't know the reason for either one. No, he did not repent for he had nothing to repent of.

Sophia, my comment about a 180, was Ervin going from the holdeman preacher that expelled my sister
for simply writing a letter,,, to a cab driver in Dodge City stopping in at Ray's Bar, the hang
out for us Monte guys, and getting his Saturday nite "sasperella" as he called it, which was a six
pack of Adolph Coors.

Thanks for being kind about my father, forreal. He was/is the kindest person I have ever known. In all my life he never spoke unkindly to me or hurt my feelings. He was incredibly empathetic to the feelings of a child and as patient as he could be. He was always everything at home that he appeared to be in private. I never understood hypocrisy until I was much older. It has always been hard for me to understand because my father's life was an open book. He had no capacity to be political, which probably was not in his favor in the end. I don't care how holy men claim to be, in the end it's usually about politics. I have thanked God many times for a kind and godly father. My mom isn't half bad either.

"Sophia

I used the term "emotional illnes" to differentiate from a "mental illnes", one which can be clinically diagnosed and usually is of organic origion.

Emotional illness, on the other hand is difficult to diagnose. We call it depression, lack of self-esteem, inferiority complex, and a number of other buzzwords with flexible meanings.

This particular minister was not raised in a Holdeman, or even a christian home. He came from a very troubled home situation. He lost his father as a young boy. When he met the Lord, he was very sincere. He moved to a small congregation in PA. and joined the H. It was a troubled congregation with many growing pains. I do not know the details of his expulsion or his reacceptance. All he told me was that he didn't know the reason for either one. No, he did not repent for he had nothing to repent of."

Sinnick - I would have to strenuously object. Depression is absolutely a mental illness. And is of organic origin. I DO agree with your definition of mental illness - the organic origin - and the fact that there are in fact genetic ties with depression - and it is chemical in nature. I strenuously object because I have fought so often in my adult life against the 'she doesn't have anything to be sad about' comments about me - about my life - including from in-laws. That's the point. My depression doesn't stem from something I am in control of - though I certainly can MINIMIZE the symptoms through medication and good health practices - it remains that the chemicals in my brain are just diseased - ill.

That said - and no harsh feelings - really! But that said - to have nothing to repent of means that he was sentenced to hell by the church for no reason. That is utterly and profoundly - sad. If it's a sin that one man/church/minister says is a sin - and another says it is not- well that's one thing. But to be expelled - sentenced to hell - for no reason whatsoever - that is what is wrong at the heart of every OTVC.

Nas - I don't know your sister's story. I've heard you speak of her and know she was expelled and did not wish to be and is/was miserable being expelled. But I've never heard her whole story. Have you shared it here somewhere?

So was Ervin one a minister who was expelled? Or are you just saying that he was a minister who would expell for a minor infraction of some sort (letter writing - gotta hear this story - she must be a gifted writer!! ) - and then would live his own sin that would/could have him expelled if it were to be a known fact to other ministers?

you're assuming I know something of these parties - I'm at a loss! I remember you telling me your name eons ago - but don't know your family...and i'm wrong generation of 'removed from the church' to know any of these parties...

Sophia, these are "back in the 50's and 60's" here. I don't hasve time tonight but I'll give you
somemore details later, it was the craziest dang thing I've ever heard of, or seen in my life!!
BTW, I worked on your grandpa Arnold's heat pump serveral times, and enjoy visiting with them
while there.Went to see her at the manor also.

Tirone wrote:
"I know of a minister who has been permanently benched but never expelled. I think it was a unique case and not sure how that all works but he was benched for many years and finally he was just completely relieved of his office and would now have to be re-ordained if that ever came up, but I think the reason he was benched was because he was just not preacher material."

I don't know if this is the same person I'm thinking of, but I was in a congregation where such a one was ordained after the home minister came out of the room where the "staff" had been counting ballots and said nobody had gotten the required amount of votes, but asked if we could support the man that had gotten the most votes. Of course, almost everyone raised their hands, for we knew quite well what the head minister wanted us to vote. It's almost beyond belief that such a thing could happen. Imagine if this man had only received 5 votes, but it was still more than anyone else! What a bunch of baloney! This man was ordained, but in a year or so, he was benched, and never reinstated. He was not expelled at that time and as far as I know is still a member in good standing. It was quite obvious that he was just not preacher material. But then I've listened to more than one preacher speak that I didn't think was really preacher material either!!

Whoa, Sophia! Slow down , Girl! You are absolutely correct about depression being a mental illness with organic causes. Consider me duly chastened. My intention was to convey the fact that the term "depression" is often bandied about without a clear definition of its actual meaning. It is very likely that this minister was suffering from undiagnosed clinical depression.
However, I would submit to you that depression can have causes other than chemical imbalances in the brain. I have suffered from depression in the past also. However, I received no relief from medication. Through trial and error I discovered mine to be caused by circumstances. I subsequently took control of my circumstances and thereby control my depression.

Friends?

Sophia, It is my understanding that the CCC replaced the problems comittee. The CCC is a two year term with the option of being reelected once. The old problems comittee was a much longer term and from what i heard at one point they deadlocked on some issue or the other and they all ended up losing their "jobs".
They actually disbanded the whole thing for awhile and then reorganized under the CCC title. There, now I believe you know more then you want to

Absolutely Sinnick! As I said - I strenuously object and have battled the misconception of depression many times - I totally know it's a sensitive subject for me. One I get passionate and rant about.

And yes - depression can absolutely be circumstance caused as well. Usually that's pretty obvious. When my sister in law lost her newborn to Trisomy 13 - I fully expected her to suffer from depression for a time after that. Because that's a natural reaction. Still organic - still a lessening of them 'feel good' chemicals working in our brains - but in that case brought on by circumstance. I in fact attribute mine to both pre-disposition and circumstance. It's always worse during stressful times or soon after when the adrenaline rush of dealing with crisis is gone.

I still say that whether a minister (or member) was emotionally ill with self-esteem issues...depressed due to genetic predisposition...or depressed due to circumstances in his life - that a sentence of hell is totally off the charts crazy thinking.

"...that a sentence of hell is totally off the charts crazy thinking."

Yes, it is. What is still amazing to me is that this man submitted to the expulsion & reacceptance and is still a member to this day. He looks at the whole thing as a tool that was used to remove him from office.
LOL, how's that for imagery? Excommunication as a scalpel to remove cancerous growth.

Nas - didn't know you had met/knew my grandparents.

Bryon - no - actually I like learning. Sometimes what I learn disturbs me - but I still come back for more!! lol

Sinnick - scalpel to remove a growth? More like amputation of the leg to fix a hangnail!! lol The scalpel makes WAY too much sense for me to see that analogy. Glad we see eye to eye on the lunacy of that decision. Poor dude.

Jane, I think we're talking about different people - although I think I've heard of the situation you're talking about, or one like it. I believe the one I'm talking about was re-instated at least once and he preached for a lot longer than a year. I maybe shouldn't say this because I don't know the situation well but I've got the impression that he was extra power-hungry while 'in office' but out of office i think he is very humble and I am under the impression that he saw that in himself and it was a mutual agreement that he shouldn't fill that office.

**And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.**