Little seventeen year old Sally, just got her drivers license. She's a cute little girl and the apple of your eye. But she's a strong willed child, and tends towards intermittent bouts of disobedience, but she has a good heart. But as her father, you have the same MO as does your heavenly Father, i.e., the wages of disobedience is death. So little Sally is supposed to be home by 10:00 P.M but you hear the car door close at 10:15. Well, Hank's question of "at what point" of infraction does the innocent become guilty immediately comes to mind, but you let her off the hook, I mean after all, she's the apple of your eye and you really don't want to club her head to mush behind the woodshed. So you impute to her total innocence (remember, we are not allowed any in-between positions here). Next night, little Sally is home by 11:15. Well, now what? This is clear disobedience.

I have a suggestion. How about a reprimand for the first infraction, and pulling the car keys for a month for the second. But Christians are forced to kill her for both the first and the second, and why not because that is the God they serve. Why should they be more just than God?

With everybody either going to heaven or hell, then the question of "at what point" is truly the question of the day, and the one to occupy all of our time.



P.S. Since Christianity doesn't believe that the punishment fits the crime, then obviously we no longer are allowed a smooth trajectory of an appropriate reward or punishment for every situation, but rather, are faced with examining that micro moment of time during which the believer is demoted from saved to not saved. At one point in time, they are saved and headed for glory land, and one trillionth of a second later, they headed for eternal torment. Now that's a big change of plans, and I'm surprised that we our spirits aren't torn apart by inertia when subjected to such a drastic and instantaneous change of trajectory. Oh that we could have died one trillionth of a second before.

I found this paper among my things and thought I would post it. This was in the school papers of my son Colin at the end of his 8th grade year. A list of sins and the punishment for each.

I hope this satisfies the need for a punishment to fit every crime.

CLASSROOM RULES

1. At the 8:25 bell be in the classroom. Prepare for class. 8:30 bell be in your seat. Any books or materials left outside of class must wait till recess to retrieve.

2. No loud talking or horseplay etc. after 8:25 bell in classroom.

PENALTY: 1 warning, then punishment. PUNISHMENT; fifty sentences to be completed by last recess.

3. Permission must be asked to speak or leave seat at any time during class time. (EXCEPTION; can get a reference book if teacher is busy.)

PENALTY; 1 warning, PUNISHMENT; write out a dictionary page, stay in at noon recess and have completed by the following morning.

4. Have a book to read for times when work is complete



MOST IMPORTANT;

a. follow directions and neatness.
b. work is always due the following day by subject class time unless otherwise instructed. PENALTY; 10 points per day.
c. work is to be placed in the proper folder at times other than actual class time such as on the way to recess etc. EXCEPTION; TEST.
d. outside reading material must be accompanied by a note from a parent and cleared by the teacher. VIOLATION; book will be confiscated and returned to the parent by the teacher.


MISCELLANEOUS RULES

1. Do not stand back and toss balls into the ball barrel.

2. During school hours while classes are in session you may only communicate by whispering at water fountains or in the restrooms EXCEPTION; lunch hour. PENALTY; Mop bathroom or entry hall.

3. Boys must wear belts and shirttails must be tucked n during class time. Pullover shirts are not included unless they have exceptionally long tails. PENALTY; Stay in last recess and practice tucking in shirt.

4. No tipping back in chair. PENALTY; Stand beside desk for 30 minutes class time.

5. No paper wads thrown into wastebasket or otherwise. PENALTY; 100 sentences for throwing trash. 50 more for wadding up trash, OR ONE SWAT IN THE OFFICE.

6. Playground rules; Good sportsmanship required. PENALTY; Sit out of game or be sent to class and given work.

Do not kick balls in the gym. Do not throw basket balls extremely hard at goals from long distances.

Do not pull on volleyball net. PENALTY; Set out of game.

I might add here that the teacher compiled the list of crimes, and the children were allowed to set the punishment. One of them jokingly suggested a whipping for throwing trash at the trashcan and missing it. If you got it in, you were ok, but if you missed, 1 swat in the office. My son tossed some paper at the trashcan from his seat which was about 2 feet away, and horror of horrors it was wadded up trash. It bounced off the rim and hit the floor. The teacher, said ok class, what's the punishment for this? They laughed and said A whippin! Everyone still thought it was a joke. My son was called to the front of the class and told to bend over. Before he knew it he was laying flat on his face in the middle of the room. The teacher had picked up his big paddle off of his desk and whomped my son so hard he went flying. May the punishment fit the crime!!! The Holdeman church stood firmly behind this teacher for abusing my son in this manner.

Don't mean to derail your thread Scott, with my personal anecdote. Carry on.

To labor under the premise of law is to labor under the premise of things being right and wrong which gives rise to the idea of punishment rather than correction.

In the premise of Grace we are washed by the water of the Word of God but I can tell us this; if water does not cleanse us then fire shall. The fire is eternal but the cleansing is an age to endure. The Greek term [forever] used for suffering after Grace and Faith has done it's best, is better translated as [an age to endure].

We know that information concerning good and evil comes from the forbidden tree where that type of thing flourishes. That's where the the premise of law got going. The Apostle once said it this way; I perceive that nothing of itself is wrong but some things are not expedient for me. We are free to be restored my friends! Jesus said that He came to restore what had been lost!

To be refreshed in the premise of Grace is to think in terms of restoration as the salvation that the Lord has Graced us with! This information is that of the Tree of Life!

Hey bud Scott, there's a bigger picture here.....that exholdemanism and popular Christianity aren't any better or worst than the Holdeman religion, and that dividing issues like heaven and hell are their little-pictured-arguments and that no matter which side you're on, everyone involved is participating in it, and what are you arguing the other side for when it's just as weak?.

Obviously there's not a set line or moment where you are vastly opposite things right then. So the religious things people argue about are so small with drawn in and contracted pictures, they do nothing for a person all their life, and they die as others die. The Bible says something to the effect there's hardly no profit in exercise.

I saw a T shirt the other day with big bold letters stamped across the back - "THE END WILL CONSUME US ALL" I didn't miss a beat when I read it.

Now I'm waiting for Peter to put in his two silly cents for you.

Hi doug, how you been?

Brent

Still not missing a beat, are you Brent?

The possible fullfillment of your a-priori anticipation of a just and well-deserved response from Peter and Doug does not vindicate your matrydom, nor does it make you a prophet, but on the contrary, merely accuses your agendas, and demonstrates that deep down, even you know that you are a bad boy.

Scott, don't accuse me falsely. What are my agendas? Who am I daily trying to persuade? Everyday I get up and go mind my own business.

Brent

Hey sugar plum, are you minding your own business now?

Scott, now you've fell to mocking. But I'm not hurt by it.

Brent

"Hey sugar plum, are you minding your own business now?"

Scott, this is the only place I do my business, right out here in the open.

Brent

" I might add here that the teacher compiled the list of crimes, and the children were allowed to set the punishment. One of them jokingly suggested a whipping for throwing trash at the trashcan and missing it. If you got it in, you were ok, but if you missed, 1 swat in the office. My son tossed some paper at the trashcan from his seat which was about 2 feet away, and horror of horrors it was wadded up trash. It bounced off the rim and hit the floor. The teacher, said ok class, what's the punishment for this? They laughed and said A whippin! Everyone still thought it was a joke. My son was called to the front of the class and told to bend over. Before he knew it he was laying flat on his face in the middle of the room. The teacher had picked up his big paddle off of his desk and whomped my son so hard he went flying. May the punishment fit the crime!!! The Holdeman church stood firmly behind this teacher for abusing my son in this manner."

Yikes! And - who votes on the punishment for this teacher?

VS - if this were today - with what you have learned and the strength you have found within yourself and God over the last years - what would your action be? Would a complaint to the church be enough? Or would you involve the police?

For myself - if the school - whether that be church-run or private or public - was harboring such abusive teachers - I would absolutely pull in a higher authority - police in this case - to look into the situation. And that would be ONLY after removing my child from the situation.

I think this example you gave, VS doesn't hijack anything - and in fact is an excellent example of punishment fitting crime in our sin-based human minds gone seriously awry.

I am reminded of a parenting moment that I do not claim the inspiration for. I give the inspiration to the Holy Spirit. My daughter had broken a rule that she knew meant there was a serious punishment heading her way. When I called to her to come to me - she was already sobbing - knowing that she was 'in for it'. My daughter is sensitive to even a reprimand - and is generally a well-behaved young lady - so to know she was not only going to be reprimanded severly - and I'm sure the anger was audible in my voice - and was going to lose privileges important to her - this was a big deal in her world. As she came down the stairs - I heard that internal H.S. voice. 'Forgive her'. 'Let it go'. Which made ZERO sense to me because I WAS angry. But I said a quick prayer of 'you'll have to guide me' and had her come sit on my lap. It flooded into me at that moment that her 'sin' was no worse than my own - and that Jesus had paid the price for ALL of this. I gave her a hug and said 'I know you realize what you did was wrong - I forgive you - just don't do that again'. She started crying harder - and asked me why I wouldn't punish her. To which I had NO good answer before that! lol But then I realized that this was just what Christ had done. And we had been talking about that - that He forgave us our sins and took the punishment for us. And in this case - her 'sin' had caused something material but precious to me to be broken and become trash. So - in a sense - i took the punishment. We talked and cried together about Jesus' love - to be able to forgive us even when we were talking the wages of sin being death (eternal loss of relationship is how I interpret that - not hellfire and brimstone). Afterwards, I was stunned once again at how God can use moments. I seriously am NOT that parent!! And my daughter knows it!! She knows that I am more likely to respond in frustration and anger - to hand out her punishment and to be steadfast that I am right - she was wrong.

So - to the OP - I think that 'one punishment for every crime' - is not only wrong - but in fact Jesus LIFTED that through his death and gave us the greatest example possible of how sometimes - NOT being punished is a far greater life lesson.

Sophia, if that were to happen today, I don't know what I would do. At that time my husband was still a church member, and I was still thinking I could go back, so I didn't go as ballistic as I might now. My son was only 3 months from graduating from the 8th grade, but even at that we withdrew him from school. I don't know for sure how I was planning to proceed, but I do know that I knew I could never let him sit another day in that monster's classroom. The school board got involved and two of them came to our house and were very apologetic. They told us that the teacher would be required to apologize and begged us to let Colin go back. We finally did after a week, but as I remember, the teacher never did apologize. The school board was very displeased with him, but the ministers upheld him. We were told of course that this simply showed our resistance to discipline and showed that we didn't have that meek and humble spirit. I think someone else might have reported it but I never did, but then this was one of the accusations that was held against me, that I had reported them to the law. In any case there was never any legal repercussions from it. That was only one small example of the things that teacher did. My son has been working his way through some of his issues lately (age 28) and these are some of the things that come up. This is one incident; we had gone shopping in Oklahoma City and I bought him a new coat. I didn't buy him junk, so I'm sure it was a really nice coat, although I don't remember it exactly. He loved the coat so much that he didn't want to take it off. When he got to school on Monday, when the other kids hung their coats up he left his on to go into class because he was so proud of it and loved it so much. The teacher asked him to come and stand in front of the class. Then he said "Where did you get that coat?" My son said "My mom bought it for me in Oklahoma City." The teacher said "I don't believe it. Your mom BOUGHT you that coat? That is the ugliest coat I have ever seen". I'm not sure what happened after that, but my son stills remembers the humiliation, but the worst thing was that his pride and enjoyment of his new coat was completely destroyed. One thing he mentioned recently about the whipping incident was how he remembered sitting all alone at the lunch table that day, trying to choke down his lunch past his tears. He sat apart from his friends feeling betrayed and rejected because they had pronounced his judgment. That man continued to teach school for several more years until he got a better job and quit. The church was quite pleased with him and he was never reprimanded for anything. But my son has suffered the after effects of the abuse ever since. Hate and rage and rebellion and low self worth. It sickens me now to think that I permitted to be in that environment, but that was where my head was right then. I had no other world than the Holdeman church, that was my only framework and understanding. Unjust punishment, abuse, no recourse. That's who they are.

Back to my question. How do Christians solve the perplexing and gross inherent injustice absolutely inherent in a system of justice that only has one response, i.e., eternal torment. Think with me for a moment; how would you feel about being forced to train, reward, and correct your child with that type of contstraint?

Scott; I might take you more seriously if you would use scripture to explain to us about God. It is the Bible that tells us about the God who Christians believe and worship. The Bible is the basis of Christianity; Christianity does not first find its roots in our intellect.

"Christianity does not find it's roots in our intellect"

That's true Hank but on the other hand there would be no recordings of Christianity nor of any other truth in which we anchor our thoughts, without the intellect.

The living God did not create natural law and then procede to violate His own laws to confuse us. What's true between a man and his wife at many levels is true between the believer and Christ Jesus! That's analytical, that's deductable. It's the word of Paul. The mind is in motion here pursuading men and women of the Truth of Christ Jesus toward us! If we denigrate this divine process we violate God and enter into a repetitous and copy-cat religion. That is where the pharisees and scribe found themselves when Jesus came on the scene.

If the God who lives revealed it once, he can reveal it again!

The Apostle Paul was very deductable in how he thought things through and yet indeed he was a Spiritual man as well! That's the balance. If this does not become the balance then we easily get off into an intuitive and religious swamp of sorts.

Dead-end [religion] on the other hand suggests that we ought to be mindless while looking only on the surface of the page; in so doing we begin to walk in a blind-faith. The living God desires that we walk in a seeing-faith! Seeing with the eyes of the Spirit of course rather than with our natural eyes.

What occurred on the road to Damascus was that Jesus Christ revealed himself to Saul who was later called Paul; this is what his testimony was later. Paul now believed because of experience and because of seeing the Lord Jesus by this revelation! Paul did not believe because Isa. 53 spoke of this same Jesus! As Saul he certainly read and re-read Isa. 53 many times and yet without producing a living Faith in Christ Jesus! To come that way would be a blind-faith in what one can see with the natural eyes and understand with the natural and unrenewed mind.

What Paul walked in was a living Faith where the intelect was very active and cooperative with God! Renewal of mind is a powerful miracle! This is what a living Faith produces in us! We need this balance!

If this helps then so be it if it doesn't we'll continue to speak by the renewal of mind and the leading of the Spirit of God!

Justice means to prescribe the right way, to do things in an appropriate way. Deuteronomy 1:17 is a good expression: "You shall not show partiality in judgement; you shall hear the small and the great alike. You shall not fear man, for the judgment is God's."



"What is false doctrine? - To deny or ignore the cross."

The concern of biblical justice is <*>always</*> restitution to the victim of a crime or wrongdoing.

You don't find the concept of prisons included in the Bible's system of justice. The reason is that an incarcerated person cannot pay back the victim.

The idea in American criminal justice is that of paying one's debt to society through the punishment of the offender. But in biblical justice the idea is to pay one's debt to the victim. When a criminal is simply locked up, what he or she did to the victim never really gets addressed.



"What is false doctrine? - To deny or ignore the cross."

Hank, you have skipped some steps, and have jumped to the conclusion that not only the bible, but our current translations of it are infallible. Now go back one step. Now hand an unbelieving man a bible and a koran. He needs to decide between them. He will read both books and decide which book has the best answers for the terrible plight of man. Will the one-punishment-for-every-infraction stand the bible in good stead? I understand very well that a Christian who has already decided he will go to hell if he ever doubts that the bible is the word of God will say what you did, but what about before he has decided? And oh by the way, won't he decide like a Berean, and heaven forbid, use his mind to do this like you have just forbidden.


I have the firm belief that for a word to be from God, it needs to provide some answers for the terrible plight of humanity, and not bring even more crushing bondage such as TR has been espousing on divorce and remarriage. Is this asking too much of God, that His word should make our lives better and not worse, please, don't fill me with rhetoric at this point about how good your life is now because you know what I'm saying here, and just because your a rich man with a nice family and you like your life doesn't have anything to do with the terrible injustice "Christianity" teaches.

(Human) Hank is going boating for the day. Maybe God will give me inspiration (and the ability to better use my intellect) while I try to let the ocean breezes blow the cob webs out of my brain. See ya later.

May God have mercy on us... no, God always has mercy on us ! Thank you, Lord.

The so-called law of retaliation Exodus 21:22-25.

"...a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."

This is so badly misquoted, misunderstood and misapplied today that one needs to take a look at what it actually teaches. look at the deterrent value- if a criminal knew he was going to suffer a physical loss for injuring someone else, he might think twice. But if he knows that the worst he will get is a place to sleep, free medical care, and three meals a day, then what he does to his victim doesn't really matter that much.

People say that the law of retaliation is brutal and vengeful and has no place in society. But, the law of retaliation actually limited vengeance. God says, if a person knocks out your tooth, you cannot go after his eye. If a person puts out your eye, you cannot take his life. The punishment is limited to the extent of the infraction. It spells out the maximum penalty the court can impose. Our sinful tendency is to return two blows for every one we receive.

Does the church "law" then trump the word of God? Has it not returned two blows for one, expel and avoidance for one wrong? And once expelled God's word would limit our actions to what? We are not to be about changing the church, that's for sure! But expel for expel, now that would be within the law and then take a look at Exod. 21:28-30. And lastly, hold the ministry to Exodus 23:3.


"What is false doctrine? - To deny or ignore the cross."




SpellCheck a wonderful gift from God.

"Now go back one step. Now hand an unbelieving man a bible and a koran. He needs to decide between them. He will read both books and decide which book has the best answers for the terrible plight of man."

Scott, Let's do it like todays church, hand the unbelieving a bible and a copy of BD&P. Or, closer to home, a copy of the bible and a copy of "the Message".

Followed by the "Martyr's Mirror" or the "Purpose Driven Life" respectively.



"What is false doctrine? - To deny or ignore the cross."

I think that you understand what denying or ignoring the cross means my friend. Keep saying that. The experiential Cross is the very central truth of eternal God! The Father experienced the Cross when sending His Son and when creating the universe! The Son experienced the cross! It is a great privilage for us to experience the Cross for the Cross alone in mankind deals with and puts to death the original deception of mankind in Eden!

VS, the story of your son brings back memories of one of my class mates and how he was treated by one particular H teacher.

This young man was in my grade and must have had a phobia about expressing himself in front of the whole class. When he was called upon to answer a question during class it was extremely hard for him to get it out. Well, this particular teacher demanded that he answer audibly and I remember more than once where she stopped the whole class for more than several minutes and basically,in silence, waited for my friend to try and choke out his answer. Almost like public humiliation to try and get a person with an obvious mental challenge to “perform”. To this day, it still almost pisses me off when I think about it.

That’s part of my problem with uncertified H teachers. They are not trained to deal with challenged students.

I’m not saying that just because a teacher is certified that they are automatically an excellent teacher. I’m saying that they need to be trained to deal with basic psychology

"To this day, it still almost pisses me off when I think about it."

What's with the ALMOST! It should ALWAYS piss you off.

There is always a qualifier around the Holdemans. It's like almost being good enough. Almost understanding. Almost being saved. Almost getting it. Almost but not quite. Does God almost love you? Is God almost pleased by the Holdeman church? Did Jesus almost die for you? Is this so pounded into every member that even when you are forsaken, this thinking justifies the actions of the church?

>>What's with the ALMOST! It should ALWAYS piss you off.<<

What are you, Vine, a f***ing psychologist?

When I say it ALMOST pisses me off I mean that I try not to let myself be overcome by emotion.

I try to get past old sh** and not be dragged down by it.

You should give it a try

Yeah, vine. I don't have any trouble getting pissed off about it. I have a hard time not going after someone with a sledgehammer. I think of myself with loathing when I contemplate that I was so blinded by Holdemanism that I didn't see what was happening to my child and that I allowed it. That I didn't call the law on that %$@* and get my kids far far away from that. My son has suffered because of that abuse ever since. He was doing that to my son at the same time the church was doing it to me. Just throw in a little for the kid for good measure, I suppose. Let's try to raise some psychopaths.