TR wrote:

<<< I am all for the Godly order of a home. However, true leadership isn't about "control", it is about setting an example. >>>




Benny G. wrote in is book, "Keeping the Faith":

<<< Church discipline, as set forth in God's Word, is a work of tremendous power. It cleanses the church, it is corrective for the erring and fallen, and it removes reproach and scandal from the Church brought about my members who sin. It is an exercise indispensable for the preservation of the Church. A NATION WOUILD BE IMPOTENT IF IT HAD NO PROVISION FOR ACTION WHEN ITS LAWS ARE BROKEN, NOR COULD IT OPERATE BY ONLY HAVING LAWS WITHOUT ENFORCING THEM. So it is impossible to operate the Church without attention to disobedience.>>>

Now the bible (which you accept in theory) draws an extremely close parallel between husband and wife and Christ and the Church, and clearly, both the home and the Church have and need a governement.

So do you feel that Benny's conclusions "A NATION WOUILD BE IMPOTENT IF IT HAD NO PROVISION FOR ACTION WHEN ITS LAWS ARE BROKEN, NOR COULD IT OPERATE BY ONLY HAVING LAWS WITHOUT ENFORCING THEM." can be harmonized with your comment that "true leadership isn't about "control", it is about example, because you disagreed with my position as leader of my home for taking any action against a disloyal and disobedient wife. Does this also mean that you disagree with your Church ever taking action against disobedience in your Church, or do you NOT believe that there is a close parallel between the two as Paul wrote about? Or perhaps you believe that division or disagreement and division in the Church (where you meet together for three hours per week) is much more harmful than disagreement and division in the home where you live with your wife 24/7, sleep with her, have intimate relations with her, and set the subsequent course for your children.

In a nutshell, you and Benny cannot be harmonized. Either you believe that authority can move against disloyalty and disobedience, or you don't. Which is it Holdemans?

I will admit, I almost feel sorry for you, trying to deal with these kinds of questions in a public forum with perhaps hundreds(if not thousands) of your fellow Holdemans watching.

Possible solutions:

1) Peace and harmony between people who meet for three hours per week is more important than between husabnd and wife who live together, sleep together, raise children together, and are "one flesh", which then justifies "force" in the Church setting but only allows "example" in the home setting.

2) The bible lied and the woman is the head of the home.

3) There is no head of the home but the strongest person wins by virtue of strength of personality

4) Paul was kidding and trying to be funny when he said the parallel between Christ/Church and husband/wife was a great mystery.

5) The husband is the head of the home only as long as men who the wife has chosen agree that he is qualified.

Can you think of any other ways to deal with the huge contradiction between Benny and TR?

Do not look for any clear answers to those questions from anyone with a theory that has severe error in it.

A true New Covenant church of Jesus is washed and cleansed
by the washing of water by the Word of God! There is a water out beyond the letter of the Word of God that washes and cleanses us! This is what the Spirit of the Lord says concerning the washing and cleansing of the New Covenant church! Eph. chapter 5:24-27 This church has real authority which is over sin, sickness, disease, devils, and ultimately over death itself, but never over the believer. Law alone gives us authority over our fellows.

The old covenant tried and failed to cleanse the house of Israel by an assumed authority over the believer by implimenting the law. The harder they tried the more the leaders were contaminated by the spirit of the nicolaitans.

Which covenant have we embraced?

The old covenant leaders were constantly trying to gain control and purge the house by their assumed authority. An assumed authority seeks to control and purge the house by an outward law; that is the defination of an assumed authority!

God did not give a law, God gave ten Life-giving commands. Ro.7 Men reduced these commands to mere laws by which they could then govern. These leaders assume the authority that was given to them by the law and not by the living God! The scribes and pharisees were the ultimate product of this assumed authority!

Secular governments all around us assume authority in the same fashion. God has ordained the secular governments to do what they do in order to check anarchy. That pattern however is not the will of Christ Jesus for His church which is a Spiritual body!

Authority in His church is Spiritual and judges those things mentioned above but never do we judge the believer who sins or is sick or who has devils. Discipline, harsh or lightweight in accordance with the letter or law cannot touch any of these things.

Scott,

I don't really have time to respond to VS's post, and made the commitment not to comment further on the subject of marriage, order of the home, etc. until I responded there. In addition, I failed to completely fulfill my obligations last week in the business world due to a number of, and am going to be doing what it takes to remedy the loss this week. I will try to check back here and respond on the issue when things are back under control, and when I have time to respond to VS's thread.