One thing I've really notice in the last 7 months, since I've been following this forum, is that many X's keeping crying out that they have freedom in Christ. They can do what they want. Being entangled in a very ridged system for many years, I can understand how someone would want to just BREAK FREE and just do as they please.

Is that not the point? Is it not more of wanting to do what one pleases instead of really wanting to please Christ? I mean the Bible does talk about our freedom in Christ. But is this freedom not a freedom FROM sin, not TO sin. Is it not a freedom from the bondage and slavery of sin and our flesh? "We were bought at a price, therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's." 1 Corinthians 6:20 We are not our own, we are SLAVES no longer to sin but to righteousness. (Romans 6:18)

Roamns 6 talks about just because we are under grace does mean that we can let sin abound...God forbid!! v 12 "Let not sin reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof." v. 14 "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for you are not under the law, but under grace." That doesn't seem to say that we can do what we please, when we please, etc. The grace that has been extended to us is not the kind of cheap grace that we can willfully sin and say "Oh, it's okay, God will (has) forgiven me anyway." No way...1 John totally contradicts that thinking. There is so much danger in taking what ever Scriptures we WANT to use for our advantage to continue to live after the flesh and our own desires. No different really than the CGCM...partial SCriptures and taken out of context at that.

Galatians 5 talks about our freedom in Christ. v 16 "Walk in the Spirit and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh." v 18 " If ye be lead by the Spirit, ye are not under the law." Taking Scripture as a whole, this is not saying that we are free to do what we want. Is it not more indicating that the law which was the taskmaster (Gal. 3:22-25), to point us to Christ, now we have the Holy Spirit that will help us and guide us if we walk in Him. No longer fulfilling the lust of the flesh Gal 5:19-25). The whole of the New Testament flow is that we are no longer under the Old Law with it's harsh consequences (death for rebellious children, etc), but instead through the grace of God, He has now given us the Holy Spirit and it is not only the outward appearance that now gets judged by God...it is the very motive of the heart (lust in his heart has already commited adultery; hated his brother is a murderer, etc).

Eph 4:21-32 talks about a life characterized by Christ (Spirit filled ~ our words, actions). v.23 talks about being renewed by the spirit of our mind. 2 Corinthians 10:5 says to take our thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ.

THis sounds to me like we are no longer slaves to sin but to God ! What a wonderful truth. I would much rather have Jesus Christ as my master than Satan...life on earth may seem more 'thrilling' serving Satan/self, but life eternal with Christ is no comparison.

I brought this up because I haev seen how many people that preach 'grace' abuse that and throw out restraint and the rest of Scripture that talks about holiness. I'm not talking about the 'holiness movement' just the whole of Scripture, yeilding to the leading of the Holy Spirit and upholding the Word of God. Not being merely 'hearers of the Word, but doers also'.

We heard a sermon on Grace not to long ago. It was an interesting perspective on the whole thing of the grace He has extended is not the freedom to do as we choose, but the freedom to choose to serve Him, to give up our own fleshly desires and walk in Him. That HE gives us the grace to do that. The grace of God is not license to sin or live for self, but the enabling of walking in the Spirit and also the conviction of sin. THat is also God's grace. We need convicton of sin in our lives...at least I do.

In conclusion, I understand why so many would like to throw out living a life of holiness for no restraint having been under MAN's control for so long. BUt the joy and peace from a surrendered life to Christ and the comfort and conviction and the directon that a life lived by the Holy Spirit is worth any sacrifice of self. The journey is exciting. My children have been listening to Pilgrim's Progress a lot lately and it is definitely very relatable.

Maybe I don't make any sense. I only had a few minutes to put this together this monring, so forgive me if I'm not coming across clearly. I'll be able to tell by people's responses, I hope.

God bless your day:)

K Suzanne

KS; I believe you make an excellent point to be addressed at Christianity as a whole... all here included. However, I think what you see here is a message of freedom perhaps over-shaddowing an understood message of holy and pure living. Except for a few individuals here, who joke about "life", I have not seen any serious believers here advocate sinful living. There is no doubt, the scriptures urge a life of purity and living after the example of Christ.

But, your point should be well taken. We need more comments and emphasis on what a Christ-follower's life should look like.

I think the post was great. Holiness is absolutely of the heart and manifests in our daily lives, moment by moment.

"... beyond the sacred page, I seek thee Lord... "

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/b/t/bttblife.htm

You got it!

K Suzanne:

Good point!

You might find a couple of my posts on this subject of interest.

How to Stop Falling Into Sin
Pauls Experience in Romans Chapter 7
Progress From Grace to Sin in 8 Steps
Grace Offered For Obedience

A surrendered life to God is freedom from manmade rules. A surrendered life to God has Blessings beyond man's ability to measure and imagination. LM

I am with you totally Lockman. Surrender to Christ Jesus is quite the opposite of surrender to precepts and ordinances for the sake of righteousness. We must be careful to what we surrender for what we surrender to becomes our master, that's what Jesus said. I think He knew. No man can serve two masters. ponder.

KSuzanne,

I don't know about freedom per say, but what I think happens is that in exercising the freewill given to man, as a member of the H, you incur the wrath of the rule keepers, when you get out from under that continual harassment there is a release from that fleshly pressure.

I don't think being a Christian is that complicated, it may be complicated to get to know Christ because of the untangling of the affairs of life, but once you know him, it is simply not complicated to keeping knowing him.

Some very good thoughts so far. My thoughts are I have Freedom in Christ does not mean I follow all the humanly lusts. It does not mean I follow manmade rules either. It means that I communicate daily with My God and my Saviour and when I am close to him I am eager to follow his guidance. It is when I fall away and do not keep focused on my Lord and Saviour that I look at other things that entrap me and bind me. What may look to some as freedom is actualy slavery and what may look to some as slavery may actually be freedom.

Lockman I really like your post, I agree. I have also always thought of freedom in Christ to be a place in which I am free to be what I feel called by God to be. Not intimidated, or insecure just trusting God to work through me, in spite of me. In my opinion freedom in Christ looks slightly different on everyone, but somehow the joy in their spirit is all the same.

People get mixed up with what "holiness and pure living really is" thinking that is something that they have to do something to make themselves pure and holy. Many forget what salvation saved by grace really means. Many can not accept that salvation by itself, and think that it has to be something they do which the word considers works. Works is burned up as hay and stubble.

Following the Holy Spirit is harder then any man-made rules can ever be. It doesn't take thinking to do that. Following the Holy Spirit does not mean what some man or woman said the Holy Spirit told them to do. God looks at the heart while man looks at the outward appearance. (Freedom in Christ absolutely does not mean willful sinning.)

Many of you have posted some good posts. calledoutPTL

>>Following the Holy Spirit is harder then any man-made rules can ever be.<<

I'd like to hear some discussion on this thought.

I'm heading out for the weekend so this needs to be quick, but cupcake, I think that when rules are substituted for spirituality, the result is to make it quite easy to live a 'Christian' life - wear a beanie, don't have radios or TVs, etc. etc. When living by the Holy Spirit, we do not have the handy little (un)written rule book to follow but need to remain spiritually awake to ensure that we are listening when she speaks to us in her still, small voice.

Hi, cupcake, following the leading of the Holy Spirit means you have communion with Jesus. The Holy Spirit is the communicator with Christ, comforting you when you are going through rough times, telling you what to do at times, feeling the arms of Jesus around you, giving you peace that words cannot describe, and even telling you when you mess up. It isn't someone else telling you what is wrong or right to be acceptable for God to accept you. When the Holy Spirit tells you to do something that is your Commander in Chief (The King of Kings)The Holy Spirit lines up with the word.) You have to know the word, spend time in prayer and talking to the Lord and the Lord communes back with you through the Holy Spirit. An example is when you feel the spirit telling you to talk to the person you have never met before, going to a place and not knowing why until you get there, and give them some money for example and they break down in tears telling you they didn't have anything to eat in their house. When the Holy Spirit tells you to do something, something happens. It can at times be telling a person you have never heard of before, of something that is happening in their lives. The Holy Spirit has many gifts for you. You don't get to pick and choose what gift you want. Read Acts and Cor.

Following man-made rules means you don't have to know the word. Doing a routine scrpture and prayer (although is good) IS NOT communion with Christ. I like to get some good praise and worship music quietly doing the communion with Christ, but is not something that has to be. Worship and Praise is though. calledoutPTL

Cupcake, I think that is a great subject to discuss.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I find the life of rules and regulations one that is designed to "maintain" spirituality. You pray at a certain time, you go to church like a programed robot every Sunday morning and attend the same Sunday school class. You do this and you don't do that....

I find living a life lead by the Holy Spirit is much more challenging then that, I am constantly being challenged to do so the things I don't want to do, I know the Spirit is asking me to and once I decide to do it, I actually have a blast. Often these are little things, sometimes things that loom huge - things I know I can't possibly do. Those are the times I tell the Lord this is something I am relying on 100% and He always comes through. I don't nearly always stay on track and often lose out because I put my pride or my wants ahead of His plan for my day.

Sometimes by being the robots and following the "rules" wondering what others will think, we miss out on the true picture.
There is nothing more rewarding then driving home on a Sunday night, sunburned and bug bitten, dirt in every nook and cranny because you spent the day helping some old friends 76 miles away who are market gardening to keep their farm and have no money to pay laborers, an no energy to keep going. No, when we called we had no idea they were in dire straights, the spirit just kept bringing them to our minds, we talked about it and decided to give them a call, (we hadn't seen or talked to them in years) and ask what they were doing that day - they said weeding the garden, so we jumped in the truck and went to help them.
They had prayed someone would come and lift their spirits. It was an amazing time! We were not in church our children sitting in the pews like angels....no, we worked our butts off all day long all of us, and never once did we doubt why we were there. Ironically they blessed us more then we blessed them. We laughed till we lay in the rows having the best time of our lives. That in my opinion that is freedom in Christ. Free to work on the sabbath if it brings Him honor and Glory!

Too often I miss out on the joy of the journey cause I get so busy following rituals that I miss the magic in the moments.

Zonta! great post. calledoutPTL

calledoutPTL
People get mixed up with what "holiness and pure living really is" thinking that is something that they have to do something to make themselves pure and holy. Many forget what salvation saved by grace really means. Many can not accept that salvation by itself, and think that it has to be something they do which the word considers works. Works is burned up as hay and stubble.

While salvation is grace alone by faith alone the Bible is very clear that there is work for us to do thought the power of God after we are saved.

We don't do works to product salvation but real salvation will produce works.

Here are a few of the many Bible commands showing there is something for us to do.

Ask, seek, knock, work, perfect, hunger, add, give diligence, labor, follow after, lay hold, fight, contend doesn't sound like doing nothing to me.

Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

2Co 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Heb 4:11 Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

1Ti 6:11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

1Ti 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

Qwerty, while I agree with the scriptures you presented, but that by itself won't make you holy or pure. You forget everything is a heart issue and when it is a heart issue you do these things, not to make yourself holy or pure, because the Holy Spirit told you to do or not do and because you love the King of King, the Lord of Lords, etc. Get my point? Many try to do these things on their own to make themselves holly and pure and it doesn't work. calledoutPTL

Grace;

I enjoyed much of what you wrote in your post.

To be free means to be spontaneous! Let's remember that if and when the Spirit of Christ Jesus asks us to do something, he immediately gives us the want-to to do it as well; we do not have to [get willing]. That's of the soul, soulish! He is the will and to do!

There is a whole lot to be said for spontaneity! Instant in season and out of season cannot occur if one must first, [get willing]. If we feel that we must [get willing] on an issue the spirit behind it is likely not the Spirit of Jesus but rather a religious spirit.

We are a new creation in Christ, all things have become new and exciting! Let us not mix the soulish with the Spiritual and that advise applies to me first.

He is not only our Lord and Master, He is our power to live!

Doug wrote: Instant in season and out of season cannot occur if one must first, [get willing]. If we feel that we must [get willing] on an issue the spirit behind it is likely not the Spirit of Jesus but rather a religious spirit. AND I say exactly! calledoutPTL

Hmm, interesting...I am an overwhelmed mother, business women and have a huge pile of responsibilities every day. Often my husband is out of town and I have running around to do from early morning till late night. We have a huge yard, large house and there is never an end to the list of chores I could be doing. Honestly at this point of my life if I waited till I was totally gungho about something to know it was of God, the only thing I would do is go to bed, stay in bed and ignore the phone! LOL
I don't remember the last time I had a day to do what I would like, I am not excited about all the mundane chores and piles of chores that need to repeated over and over knowing they will never be finished, but amazingly I have a great life!
I am so overwhelmed most mornings by the schedule I have to face I don't get out of bed without begging God to grant me the strength to get through the day. Doug I have to get willing to do what it takes to keep this family going every day, putting other needs ahead of my own, and it is rewarding totally rewarding. I would not explain myself as an overwhelmed person, but rather a happy one.
Often I am not excited about the sacrifices I know I need to make ...but according to your post Doug, it is a legal spirit that keeps us together not the Spirit! LOL
So Doug my man, Is my heart not filled with the Spirit, or is it not Gods will that I be a mom and wife? If I am honest with myself, I do struggle many times to put the needs of others before my wants. I choose to make the decisions I know will be best for my family long term and choose to be happy about it. Honestly it is not bubbling out of my heart naturally every day!
I am constantly struggling between what I feel is what I am called to do, and what "I" would like to do. I am too busy to visit the bedridden parents and doing so will set me back so I will lose 21/2 hours more of sleep, No I don't want to offer to take the elderly neighbor lady to the dentist today, (that means canceling a scheduled appointment with a client) You see often I know what the spirit is nudging me to do, and usually it works out in the end, but often in the interim I need to "get willing", and lay down my agenda,or give up what makes me feel better at the moment.
You see in theory that is a noble thought but it is not realistic in my life....Help me out here! Am I fake? Am I walking outside of God's will.

If you would relate to me when your tongue is in cheek and when you're being playful in what you say, we might get on the same page.

I was of the opinion we were speaking of being free in Christ and following his direct words to us in the matters of righteousness.

If you need to get willing to become less busy then being so very busy is very likely outside the will of God for you. We can find that balance by His direction! When he does direct us even in these type matters, He gives the want to at the same time He directs us.

You receive no judgment from me. I think what happens is that we get apples with oranges sometimes when we try to dialogue.

I greatly respect your hard earned week-ends. Women are absolutely overworked many many times. Men also arrange their things and do this for their families. It's possible that you may need some new direction from the Lord in these natural matters.

Many times it's too much debt that causes us to be driven crazy by the work it demands. I know nothing about you other than what you wrote.

Doug; I have met grace and her man once... and it is not because of debt she/they have a busy life. Grace is (1) just plain too honest to put up a facade; she speaks honestly and for many others too; (2) she is who she is and that is an energetic person of faith and reality who lives an exciting life with her family. Its her make-up; its in her DNA and such basic personality does not change by "believing". If she was stifled of her activity, she would die. Right now!

Christians are made up of all sorts, some of us are slow and easy going and some run all the time. Qwerty, in my opinion, is one who runs all the time. He bikes on cathedral steps for leisure at 2:00 AM; so he can run his computer ventures challenging Bill Gates' people, Google and the likes, and be in that fast lane in the right time zone. I picture Grace this way... metaphorically. And they both freely admit they are dependent on God's grace for peace. And I'll bet, they are each equally busy, each in their own way being a witness for Christ.

But thanks Doug; if no one had tangled with Grace, I would not have been able to show off my gasconading insight...

I always thought that the only thing we "need" to do is spread the good news of the Gospel. Now how one goes about that is between them and God. It can be done in many ways and I suppose others can pick it up in accordance to Gods plan, if we are aware that we are not in charge.

However if we are not a messenger of the good news,,saved by grace through faith:

Ephesians 2:8

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Then we are a clashing cymbal

1 Corinthians 13:1

If I speak in the languages of humans and angels but have no love, I have become a reverberating gong or a clashing cymbal.




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Paris, your absolutely right that without love nothing else counts. The letter of the law killeth love don't you think? I do enjoy your posts. calleodutPTL

calledoutPTL:
>>>Qwerty, while I agree with the scriptures you presented, but that by itself won't make you holy or pure.

I think I made that very clear in my post. You may want to read it again. I clearly stated works doesn't saved you but that true faith produces works.

>>>You forget everything is a heart issue and when it is a heart issue you do these things, not to make yourself holy or pure, because the Holy Spirit told you to do or not do and because you love the King of King, the Lord of Lords, etc. Get my point?

I don't think I forgot that everything is a heart issue at all. Not sure where you got that. Any one that obeys the Lord is became they love him. The Word is very clear on that.

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Just because I don't state that doesn't mean I have forgotten that.

I think those that teach you can sin and still love God are the ones that are missing (or forgetting as you put it) Bible principles.

>>>Many try to do these things on their own to make themselves holly and pure and it doesn't work.

I would agree with that but clearly I am standing against salvation by works. I strongly hold that salvation is by grace alone thought faith alone. But at the same time saving faith is only born in a heart that has godly sorrow and repentance. Godly sorrow works repentance to salvation (2Cor 7:10). Then salvation brought by faith that is born in a heart that has godly sorrow and repentance will product works.

Then we go back to my post and where the Bible clearly instructs Christians to ask, seek, knock, work, perfect, hunger, add, give diligence, labor, follow after, lay hold, fight, and contend.

Also we need to realize that it is possible that Christians don't ask, seek, knock, work, perfect, hunger, add, give diligence, labor, follow after, lay hold, fight, and contend like they should.

After Peter told us to ADD he tells us if we don't we are blind, can't see very far spiritually and have forgotten we were purged from our old sins (2Pet 1:9).

Thanks calledoutPTL,,there are a lot of good posts today from a lot of people.


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Some pretty good news,,,

John 15:12
This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Romans 5:6
For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us



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Your right many have had good posts today. calledoutPTL

Hank, Grace and I were not tangling to my knowledge. I thought she was asking me honest questions, I was trying to help. I did not question her faith. I do not do that with anyone.

Grace seemed to be out of sorts that she was so busy that she could hardly find time to do what she thought God wanted her to do, unless I misunderstood her.

We were speaking of God giving us the want to, at the same time he asks us to do something. We were speaking of an obedience to righteousness that manifests rather spontaneously rather than in a contrived way.

Doug; no offense meant (I was trying to be funny) ... but we all tangle here and it makes good discussion.

Indeed and okay!