Many know about communism, or about Hitler, etc and think it is terrible. But unless they have experienced it, they don't totally understand the freedom from it. So Mr calledoutPTL says there is a difference between relief from pressure and experiencing freedom. The reason you have peace with Christ is because you are in commune with Him. God is not an abuser. If you are under fear of what someone thinks, you aren't living in freedom of Christ. calledoutPTL

My Mennonite sister that I have a very good relationship with is the one to whom I asked this question; why are you all so afraid of each other. I had noticed that the system we call law has them afraid of each other. She answered, you know we [are] a fraid of each other, why is that she continued.

She's open and free around me and unafraid, yet she's afraid of her own. What a law to live under. I suspect it takes a whole lot of pot-lucks to compensate.

When the law becomes a many facited thing I may at some level be breaking one of them because not all of them are clearly defined and my brothers in the law watch me closely to see if I go over the unwritten line. Or maybe I am a little friendly with my big brother who is not one of our members. That can cause one to fear as well.

She asked (me) of all people, was the dress I wore to the family reunion too, something or other. My brother in law, a Holdiman preacher asked me if his new glasses were too fancy? I suppose these were afraid that some of the family would think things were too (something or other), I really cannot remember what. Point being, those under the law are not really free even among themselves. My sister needs relief from what? Her fear or her law?

She has some freedom in her heart and I am trying to determine if it is in Christ or not. I do not have to know. Funny how complicated it gets.

It seems to me that one must remember altogether too many things in a many facited law system. The apostle said it this way: do not place a heavy burden on the believers in one place, just tell them to refrain from eating things sacrificed and to refrain from drinking the blood of things strangled. That's already plenty of load in my judgment. I probably would remember the nasty blood drinking thing!

"Nothing of itself is unlawful to me but some things are not expedient!" That is the way one thinks when one is free from the law.

The internal freedom of God's Spirit causes us to be free and yet expedient!

The apostle said it this way: do not place a heavy burden on the believers in one place, just tell them to refrain from eating things sacrificed and to refrain from drinking the blood of things strangled. The first conference!! calledoutPTL

The internal freedom of God's Spirit causes us to be free and yet expedient!

Great statement, Doug!  This is a mystery that totally escapes legalists, and took several years of attending a good Bible-believing church to fully absorb.  The legalist will always say, "well, if we let people be 'free', they will go totally wild and live lawlessly/worldly, or whatever you want to call it".  This is something that I observed for many years in the H church.  At Monte, there was a rule for many years that people could not have weather radios.  Well, the day that rule was released, I think the stores within 100 miles were sold out.  Same thing with anything else.  If the rules were suddenly taken away, there would be a lot of H people that would not know how to act.  There is no internal compass that has been developed within legalism, so it would be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Those are amazing truths Brent. Take away the restraints [the corrals]if that is what one is living by and the horse runs wildly back to the mountains.

A friend of mine was asked by a H preacher if he ever thought of going back to the church. He replied," you know, i get along fine with the H - they are nice to me, i don't have a problem with them. But if i was to go back to that church, someone wouldn't like my shirt, my belt, my car, my shoes, my hair... They are ruthless with each other... I get along fine now, i don't need that." The preacher was quiet for a bit and he says, "you have a point there."

Another friend of mine on observing the H at church, said - "They are constantly critiqueing each other, why?"

So many of them are in fear of THINGS - what will draw attention, and yet, are they following in the right (things). They lose the whole picture - I always said i was unable to truly understand God and what He was trying to tell me, while a H, as i was forever under the fear of man. I was afraid of what would be brought to attention, or what would they think of this fabric? I told the staff on the last visit - a whole roomful... "God is NOT going to tell you thank you for wearing dark hose to church, or having your headcovering just so, or kneeling forward in church vs. kneeling back, when you reach Heaven... that is NOT what it is about." I will admit too that EVERY word was written down - and is in the archives somewhere's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know I crashed under that weight of things and it took me a long time to realise what it really was. I still remember sitting in SS and thinking, "I do not know who I am anymore," because every thing I did or purchased was run thru a rolling screen of other peoples opinions. I could not even tell you what I really liked because I had to run it all thru that screen first. I know that I am not yet totally free of it but I can for sure tell you that I am growing in being free Indeed. and I am learning that I am worth more than just the cast offs of everyone else, for once in my life. I do not have to take what you dish out just because you do it or take someones opinion as the gospel truth of how it should be, but I can weigh it and decide if there is truth in it for me and walk away if there is not.
and no I do not believe that Christian life is something that we arrive in and are now part of perfection permanently without needing to grow and change and learn new things in Christ Jesus.
I am no longer trying to reach that spot that was constantly held up to me," When you get to where you are supposed to be then you will be accepted of God and man"
I am accepted by God and man the way I am, Sorry if you don't agree with me today. I feel no guilt because you don't.

Love and prayers, Locklady

Good point, LL. After we were out a couple of years it became quite apparent to us how everything we did, said, purchased, was first run through the mill of "What will this look like to the church ?" It was just an ingrained behavior that we subconsciously did every time we did ANYTHING. Its become a sin to us of how we really worshipped the church and not God. Now, our behavior is governed by the Holy Spirit and He directs us in what would be pleasing to God.

And, NO, we haven't run off to the mountains like wild horses.

Your Faith is strong! You have my thumbs-up. I have an idea that you're mature people.


The sister with whom I have a good repore thinks in terms of not being out-standing or the better term might be to be plain so as to advert attention away from them. I mentioned to her that it is precisely your plainness and way of dress that draws the attention to you on the street. She said, oh no surely not. Now that's a catch-22.

This is what occurs when what was nonconspicuous and average at a certain point in history begins to be held up highy as "the way". That's the root of legalism already at work in human flesh. "Take no thought with what you shall be clothed or with what you shall eat or drink". I understand that that is speaking of having faith for these things but with it comes the idea that fig leaves may well be good enough. The legalist would deliberate much, finally the legalist would make sure that the fig leaves would be dark green ones rather than the reds and yellows they turn in the fall. Funny thing there. You see if you create pride in small things where there was no pride then you must live by your standard. Jesus said if a man keep a law, He must keep the whole law.

It's a funny thing what that type of thinking will do to us!

It blows me away that Holdemans can't (won't?) tell the difference between the simple psychological identity loss (group think) that LL related and spiritual identity loss (maturing in Christ). Watching my wife undergo the former at the expense of the latter was one of the most disturbing, inhuman things I've ever witnessed. They seem to be able to identify it as such when others do it to someone but not among themselves. How much more "worldly" can a people get than this? I guess when you have the "right" group think that makes the treatment O.K. Scary, scary people.

Right on Gene. Your incisive, carefully ordered insights on this forum are sorely missed. By the way, I have the gourd you gave me in a prominent place on my coffee table in the living room. It is absolutely a magnificent work of art. Thank you again.