I was informed recently that there is going to be a meeting soon celebrating the 150th year since John Holdeman broke off from the old church and founded the CGICM. They want to get together and see how the church now differs from the church when JH started it. And they want to return to the old ways...

Anyone know who's invited?

Wonder what will be decided...

aaaagggghhh..why celebrate him and who gets these ideas?! Some people definitely do NOT have enough to do!

Hmmm... maybe they could call it Potluck on the Prairie-Celebrating 150 years of Dissimulation.

wow... so is their church about serving God or worshipping a man?

I think we should be objective here... The Holdeman people are an identifiable group in the spiritual community, starting 150 years ago with the ministry of a unique and dedicated man, John Holdeman. They have survived as a group and likely are known by all who have studied Mennonite teachings and history. There is no doubt that Holdeman has made a mark in the "church" at large and they are recognized for some specific emphasis within the Christian community.

Why should a 150 year milestone not be recognized and celebrated? The question is not whether one agrees with them or not; but rather to recognize a prominent point in the history of the CGCM. My wife and I attended the 50th anniversary of the H congregation where we first place placed our trust in Jesus Christ and received Christian baptism. It was a memorable occasion and worthwhile in my opinion, to celebrate with them in that community.

Hank, I think I could honestly agree with your positive and blameless approach toward the H people and their history ... IF they would return the favor in some small way.  I have a difficult time recognizing the beauty of an organization that has basically perfected a system of tyranny, control, legalism, and self-righteousness.  Whatever gains they have made spiritually, they have squandered at the personal cost of those that were the closest to them.  The "collateral damage" is just too hard for me to accept and celebrate.  The fact that it has gone on for 150 years is a testimony of the strength of JH's power of persuasion over a gullible people.

Oh by the way Hank, how do you commemorate the anniversary of when they nearly killed your wife?

So Brent D; should we discount those thousands ? who have placed their trust in Christ through their preaching, and have lived their Christian life in that particular church community ? Have realized their daily peace with Christ and fellowshipped within that particular societal group ?

What ever they have come to be, may not be what they always were; nor is it impossible for them to change where they may have aberrations. Are all denominations the same today as yesterday ? do we not believe that the Spirit of God leads believers towards truth ? Is it not so that Christians have their valleys and peaks in life ?

BTW; if you study the history of the KG's from Manitoba, where in 1880 JH took half of those folks into CGCM, you will find by KG's own writings that they were steeped in formalism, against which Holdeman preached a gospel of forgiveness, freedom from guilt, and assurance and joy of salvation. This may have been preaching within a conservative style of life, but JH moved believers to a more open and joyful Christian life. The KG' s are the people of my background. The tide has changed since 1880, and reversed to where the KG's now the EMC, (Evangelical Mennonite Conference, or Church); reflect the NT church closer, in my opinion , then CGCM does. But such is the way history goes. I submit that Holdeman (in part) ministered and modeled the gospel needed among them at that time.

Now, we do not overlook ( as I see it ) that along with a joyful gospel, Holdeman also brought with him misunderstanding of biblical baptism and of the church.

Scott; those are your words, I never said that... My wife and I both believe that God brings grace and deliverance to face every difficulty that comes to one. His grace and strength is sufficient for every trial (may sound like religious jargon) and He sees us through these. In fact, it is the tough things we face in life that build character and makes us who we are.

I have no regrets of the happenings in my life. Of course, if one had had a choice, I suppose things would have gone differently... however... then where would I be today ?? We cannot change the events that have made us who we are; but we can choose to use the experiences of life for our betterment.

I am speaking for myself.

Maybe there was a time and place for JH and his teachings.  The KG's are people of my background as well, and it is hard to say what might have happend to them if JH had not "rescued" them.  It's difficult to say whether he did them a favor, or if he just found a group that would accept his brand of authoritarianism.  If I was not personally paying the price for their (ongoing) doctrinal "aberrations", I would be much more able to give credit where credit is due.

I do truly believe that it is possible for them to change, but I also think JH really drove the stake in the ground when he wrote the Mirror of Truth, which contains those misunderstandings that you poinited out about biblical baptism and the church (foundational concepts!!!).  Without repudiating those fundamental errors (which they are celebrating), I don't have a lot of hope for significant change.  In any case, I suppose they're entitled to celebrate, but I won't be clapping my hands.

Holdeman government and history is what should be recognized.

One is obligated to accept people on their appearances and claims when that's how they live too.

Brent

To validate the abuser is to invalidate the reality of the abuse that was done. To invalidate abuse has the same (if not worse) effect as repeating it. Perhaps Hank simply does not understand the visceral response of an individual, when a system is commemorated and honored which tore their life apart.

Sometimes, it seems like all of us who are genetically Holdeman have almost a predisposition to have low emotional IQ's. We really are a low-class ghetto-type controlling, sadistic people who have attempted to compensate by excessive tidiness, cleanliness, politeness in public, wealth, etc. I don't say that lightly. I'm serious that the majority of Holdeman people, because of lack of exposure, and proud exclusivity, have never bothered to acquire much of the basic knowledge of how the human soul operates. Therefore, they (we?) tend to have no comprehension of how bad we hurt one another with brazen and graphic control and manipulation (which has been doctrinalized into legalitiy), and then are puzzled by reactions of hurt and anger.

Scott:

Very, very well said. And yes, I recognise some (most?, all?) of those traits in myself.

Hank: As far as commemorating anything significant in the history of the Holdemans goes, anything that could be commemorated should be done with an attitude of repentance, remorse and regret on the part of the Holdemans for all of the evil, pain and suffering that their 'prophet' enabled and initiated, his successors perpetrated and perpetuated, and the complicity that the every Holdeman member has by virtue of the fact that they (explicitly or implicitly) support this unholy, heretical and abusive cult.

In deference to opposing views of celebrations, I make it clear that I never intend to celebrate wrong theological concepts or abuse that such may bring. I readily admit that such concepts are evident within the Holdeman leadership and have permeated into their social structure, to the detriment of individuals. My recent visit with a high level H person, clearly brings out the fact that they think they are "the way", at the exclusion of all others. This likely always over-shadows/or equals to the level of "true faith" in Jesus Christ in the most churchy folks among them. However, there are many where such exclusion is on the back burner, or perhaps is tolerated but not embraced, and allows "true faith" or "believing" in Jesus Christ alone. I have met many such H folks.

Such true faith is evident in may others; say the RC or take the Greek Orthodox folks. They identify with a cultural connection, but have their hearts in the right place.

OK, my H friends; who am I to make such a statement. I only say what I observe (and feel). One cannot go by feelings, however what is real life? Real life is when we can experience and feel social acceptance, toleration of one's views even when we may disagree, and individual respect. I see such acceptance among many H folks and that I can readily celebrate with them.

The "St. Sophia's Greek Orthodox Church" in our town has a yearly 4 day fall festival of food, worship, joyful cultural dancing and outreach to the community. (BTW, these believers, I understand, are closer to the NT teachings then evangelical groups) I could not attend due to schedule, however, I would have celebrated with them because they are a community of faith... and not because I may not understand the scriptures to every jot and T as they teach.

(Off the subject, but shortly after we were separated from H, the Eastern or Greek Orthodox ladies had a bazaar in the city next to our town. I made a point of connecting with some of their booths, and I engaged an elderly lady in some discussion (I do not recall, but likely she was veiled). I asked her how she understood the word "baptize" from the scriptures, and what their practice was when baptizing babies. She replied that it meant to "dip, to wash" and they baptized their babies in the baptismal laver.)

And so, to be on the WAY is to "believe" and with one's belief to reflect the teachings of Christ. With such believers, I will celebrate anywhere.

I think Hank is correct, it should be recognized and remembered.

Just like 9-11 and Hiroshima are remembered every year.

Peter; I'm happy to have your agreement, and I often depend on it; but I believe we may differ in some of our concepts.

I do not equate my ST. Sophia Greek Orthodox friends and believers celebration to 9-11 or Hiroshema. My view is that one is a memorial and the other is a celebration of "life", peace and joy.

What do you hold against the Greek Orthodox believers ?

>>Peter; I'm happy to have your agreement, and I often depend on it; but I believe we may differ in some of our concepts.

I do not equate my ST. Sophia Greek Orthodox friends and believers celebration to 9-11 or Hiroshema. My view is that one is a memorial and the other is a celebration of "life", peace and joy.

What do you hold against the Greek Orthodox believers ?<<

Hank: You (appear to) misunderstand, I think. Peter was comparing the sesquicentennial of JH's founding of his little cult as something that should be treated (albeit on a less globally significant scale) as a 9-11 or Hiroshima. His comments were not connected to any comments by you re: the Greek Orthodox.

But you really should clear your schedule in order to take in part of the festival. Greek cooking beats the stuffing out of Holdecooking, in my opinion. The souvlaki, spanakopita, lemon potatoes, and, to finish things off, baklava, are most delicious.

Hank, I'm sure your way has served you well in business, but you further abuse the people who have been abused by that system, and I believe you are well aware of that, and I also believe you take a subtle pleasure in doing that. You know exactly what you are doing, and you know that your superficial position which appears to be so tolerant and loving is hard to assail. Why? How does one impune love? In this way. "love without justice is from Satan", C. S. Lewis

I agree with higheagle. I don't see any point in having the celebration. As holdemans, we don't make it a point to celebrate any other man, so why should we celebrate JH? If he was supposedly elected to be our servant, why would we celebrate a servant? Do we celebrate any other of our ancestors, such as any of the apostles?


Cupcake, it is very likely the legalists who have come up with the idea.

>>As holdemans, we don't make it a point to celebrate any other man, so why should we celebrate JH? If he was supposedly elected to be our servant, why would we celebrate a servant? Do we celebrate any other of our ancestors, such as any of the apostles?<<

The Holdemans (largely, at least) don't even celebrate the true servant (Christ), but rather engage in church/conference worship. Arguably, JH is more important to them than JC.

LOL Hank, I love the Greeks and the geeks. I was talking about the Johnny memorial day!

Peter; I know you were... but I was talking about a bigger picture then some of you want to look at. Objectively (that is how I prefaced my comments as in my first post on this subject) all Christian church groups have the right celebrate their milestones.

Hank, good to see you haven't lost your sense of haha.

<<< all Christian church groups have the right celebrate their milestones>>>

Looks like were changing the subject now, as if this was the question all along, of whether the Holdies have the right to celebrate their milestones. Of course they have the right, and so does Hitler and Stalin, but the questions raised here was your motives in desiring to assist them. This was about a slippery of an evasion that I've ever seen.

Maybe we could turn it into an annual Holdeman paid holiday day.

>>Looks like were changing the subject now, as if this was the question all along, of whether the Holdies have the right to celebrate their milestones. Of course they have the right, and so does Hitler and Stalin, but the questions raised here was your motives in desiring to assist them. This was about a slippery of an evasion that I've ever seen.<<

Scott: Thank you for putting that into words. I was thinking down those lines but didn't take the time to formulate that.

Go ahead and twist it any way you like. I stand by all I have said. Note my first post:

"Why should a 150 year milestone not be recognized and celebrated? The question is not whether one agrees with them or not; but rather to recognize a prominent point in the history of the CGCM."

No Hank, I'm sorry. It is not us who are twisting.

<< The question is not whether one agrees with them or not; but rather to recognize a prominent point in the history of the CGCM."

>>>

I propose a commemoration of the day the ovens were first heated at Buchenwald and Auschwitz, which was also a prominent point in the history of Germany, and even mankind.

Scott, you are completely off your rocker today!!!

Where the hell did Hank say anything about HIM celebrating this thing??

Fact is fact. There is an anniversary when the holdie thing started.

GEEZ I feel like Brent. they are a recognized tax exempt societal group. They can celebrate whatever the hell they want to. Maybe he's right, they must be a government if they hold that much sway over your life that you can't even recognize a stupid little thing like an anniversary.

Not everybody believes in Christ either but they still celebrate Christmas.

 

I do not want to speak for Scott but I think he is speaking of intellectual honesty here. If you do not believe in Christ then do not celebrate Christmas and furthermore that we should not encourage men and women to celebrate Christmas that do not believe in Christ.

Am I missing you Scott?

Dougie, get a grip on reality.

Peter-man, try to understand Scott here and a new level of converstation may open up. Edifying conversation? Possibly. For sure? No but it may be.

I did not say that I was that intellectually honest, I was trying to understand Scott. There's a reality in that my man.

Dougie-man, I do completely understand Scott here. He is letting his prejudice on Holdie-supporting-Hank get in the way of his higher intellect. He's a much better man than this.

I will go back to my original meaning. It doesn't matter whether you like a group or not. The fact is they had a origin date and that is coming up to 150 years. Now you might wish it had never happened, but like many things in life it did.

No where did I read into Hank that he was considering making this a national holiday. but I was not reading Hank with prejudice either.

Peter, huh, huh, and HUH? Am I missing something? If so, I will back down and apologize. Ok Doug, help me understand where I fell off the wagon, because apparently, you see both sides here.

I do understand. It's very possible to allow our intellectual honesty to over shadow common sense. Particularly is this a truth when we are immotionally involved. Emotion can easily cloud the part of the mind where common sense resides. Common sense can dove-tail with intellectual honesty but what an art to practice for those who are astutely honesty.

Scott, show me a good reasonable argument why someone should NOT celebrate the origin of their movement.

(nowhere did Hank or anyone say this should be celebrated anywhere outside their own little circle of buggies)

 

Doug, your Scott can never do no wrong......and you think you're "astutely honesty" and a righteous man!!!

Peter, you're right. Religious exholdeman intolerance is unacceptable no matter how it's reasoned.

Brent

The fact of the matter is, the Holdeman church is built on the rock JH, not the rock Christ Jesus. They are perfectly free to celebrate his influence and great visionary status, but it is not as benign as some claim it to be. They are not only marking the beginning of the movement, but acutally trying to return to the least savory of boundaries that were established. They want to nail down the old ways, and that does not mean the foundational doctrines, but the ways of control and legalism need to be reinstated on a more formal level. This return to the old ways will not lead to greater spirituality, but rather to greater control. Control is what these jokers are after. Does it matter to me if they celebrate this thing? Not a whit. They can dance around in the moolight and stir the cauldron all they want. I am gone from it. But do I think it is an admirable thing to do? No, because as I said, they are built on the rock JH. This is proven by how many people fear that they cannot be saved outside this church. People who worry about this prove that they do not have salvation, and that they do not know Jesus Christ. For if they did, in totality and reality, this question would never enter their minds. Hank, Peter, et.al., this is not merely marking a milestone, an anniversary of 150 years of cultural bliss, no, it is a commemorating of the influence of a radical false prophet who mixed a little truth with a lot of lies and created one of the most seamless and diabolical religous systems I have ever seen. They are celebrating the man when they do this. But as I said, who cares? Let them. They are nothing to me.

>>it is a commemorating of the influence of a radical false prophet who mixed a little truth with a lot of lies and created one of the most seamless and diabolical religous systems I have ever seen<<

Very well stated, Mutther!

Mutther, I guess my approach came from the fact that they really don't affect my life in any way. I was looking at the whole situation from a greater distance than Scott et al. I view them as I might my Muslim neighbor, my Wiccan friend, or the pagan in the other end of the city. They can celebrate whatever holiday they like.

In fact, I would encourage them to start being more open about their veneration of Johnny. That would at least mark them for what they are.

To be fair to the Holdies, their veneration is not so much directed towards Johnny Himself, but to The Church That Johnny Built. Of course, the veneration of either entity is, in fact, cultish behaviour. However, I have found from past experience that if you besmirch the Holdewhore (aka COGICM Inc.) or Johnny Himself, many Holdies react more strongly to that than if one speaks negatively against the Christian faith.

In many cases????