I heard from someone tonight commenting about Obama's public claim that he is not Muslim. This person we know .. knows someone who works in the intelligence agency over in one of the muslim countries. This person is saying that the muslims there are mad at Obama because publicly he is saying he is not muslim while privately he has been saying he is muslim.

Some dude told another dude who told me that John McCain is an ex-holde. His last name was Koehn so he changed it to McCain. Heard that ole Gladdy Koehn is mad cause he won't admit he's John Koehn from LoneTree!

My sources say that john mckoehn has been seen worshiping with the baptists...after he left the holdes he attended episscopalian church.how can the people of the usa trust a man as the potus if he cant even stay with the one true church.its obvious he is bitter and confused. I know he cant go back to the holdes cuz he divorced and remarried so to bad to sad for the senator.

also mckoehn was ogling sarah palins butt during her acceptance speech.

"also mckoehn was ogling sarah palins butt during her acceptance speech."


Whats wrong with that,,, so was I.
But I think your candidate Muslim Obama, was ogling McKoehns butt during their debate! heh,herh,heh

Lark: I heard from a friend of a friend of a friend whose brother-in-law's mother's sister's daughter used to work as a receptionist for an abortion doctor in Alaska that Sarah Palin had an abortion when she was a teenager. Now THAT'S credible information!

"I heard from a friend of a friend of a friend whose brother-in-law's mother's sister's daughter used to work as a receptionist"


Ah-ha,,,, now we know who is posting as "The HoldemanNews" on this forum.

YEA lARK, HE SAID SHE SAID. ONLY WORKS WHEN YOUR TALKING ABOUT THE H ON THIS FORUM.

i bet palin is ex-holde to. she's a penner who moved up to alaska with those other holdes then left the church.

Better to be a Penner and ex'ed that to be a black a**ed Muslim.

Watch Sean Hannity of Hannity and Holmes Sunday nite @ 9 p.m., you'll see stuff on Muslim Obama you never knew nor does the news media let you know.
I dare ya Muslim Mennonites to watch it.Your afraid of truth.

yeah, yeah.. so and so said such and such.... that doesn't change the topic I'm trying to address though....

What would you guys think though... if this is true? If Obama has deceived the people of the US and he makes decisions as President of the United States that are sympathetic to Muslim causes? I.e. coming against Israel and support the Muslims.

What would you guys think though... if this is true?

Lark, the problem is that you are asking us to assume that this big fat lie is the truth, so it is really just a hypothetical question you are asking.  What would you think if it was true that John McCain sold classified secrets to the Vietnamese?  Or if Sarah Palin was a bank robber?  You have to prove your claims beyond heresay before it can become a real question.  Baseless speculation just won't cut it.

Excellent post, BrentD!

Lark, did you hear a jet flying over you when you read my post? You should have, since you entirely missed my point. Posting hearsay about Obama (as well as one college undergraduate's musings about one world government on another thread, which obviously were heavily influenced by fundamentalist paranoia about the Antichrist) and then proceeding from there to speculate that these are (possibly?, likely?) true, borders on the absurd.

I have no idea if Sarah Palin ever had an abortion - most likely she did not. I simply made that up in an attempt to demonstrate how stories such as the Obama/Muslim thing gets perpetrated and perpetuated. I mean, check out www.snopes.com - it's full of urban myths and legends that go something like: "I heard from a friend of a friend who has a brother who says X". Thing is, you never actually find out who the actual person is that said "X". It's always left vague, which usually, in these scenarios means that it a) never actually happened but was a rumour that got passed on or b) was a deliberate fabrication.

If you have the name of the person "who works in the intelligence agency over in one of the muslim countries" please send it to me - I would love to hear this firsthand from him.

Edited for clarity.

The only problem here is that, Bin Laden Obama IS muslim, not just a made up story. As I have said if you can't tell that from the name? You're in trouble with realilty. This guy IS A MUSLIM, sorry.

McCain defended Obama tonight when a person in the crowd said she thought he was an Arab. McCain said he was not, and that he was a "decent family man". In another incident, a person was telling McCain that they had a lot of fear of an Obama presidency, McCain repeated that he was a decent man, and said they had "no reason to fear an Obama presidency".

I think McCain is taking the high road here, and I respect him greatly for it. He understands he will most likely loose this race, and he wants to leave a respectable legacy behind. There is a radical element in America who may turn to violence if Obama is elected, and I think he wants to try to dampen the flames a little. I like the guy a lot for it.

>>There is a radical element in America who may turn to violence if Obama is elected,<<

Stan, I think there will be violence no matter which one is elected. If Obama loses it will be the black people that will riot, if Obama wins it will be the republicans that will feel like they have been cheated out of an election because of widespread fraud in early voting. When individuals vote 20 to 70 times then the law needs to step in. This is going to be a wild next three weeks.

This voting stuff going on, already the last 2 ? elections. I never thought I would see the day this country deteriorate to third world status!!! Its hard to believe what apparently is going on... and what we can expect on election night.

GM, who says anyone will vote 20 or 30 times? Obama is well ahead in all the polls now. Do you think they are cheating with the poll voting?

>GM, who says anyone will vote 20 or 30 times? Obama is well ahead in all the polls now. Do you think they are cheating with the poll voting?<

Yes, big time. ACORN has 40 offices in Ohio alone and they are paying people to vote as many times as possible. Here is one illustration:


ACORN Pays to Register Teenager 72 Times

Friday, October 10, 2008 4:39 PM

By: Jim Meyers Article Font Size

An Ohio teenager says he was given cash and cigarettes by activists with the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN) for registering to vote 72 times.

“Sometimes they come up and bribe me with a cigarette, or they’ll give me a dollar to sign up,” 19-year-old Freddie Johnson of Cleveland told the New York Post.

“The ACORN people are everywhere, looking to sign people up. I tell them I am already registered … They say, ‘Can you just sign up again.’”

ACORN — whose political wing has endorsed Barack Obama — is under investigation in at least nine states for potential voter fraud.

In Connecticut, officials are probing the allegation that ACORN registered a 7-year-old girl to vote.

Bribing citizens with anything of value to get them to register is a felony in Ohio.

Johnson told The Post his haul over an 18-month period was from 10 to 20 cigarettes and “anywhere from $10 to $15.”

© 2008 Newsmax. All rights reserved.

We do know that Obama has had ties with with unrepentant former domestic terrorist William Ayers, the left's version of Timothy McVeigh. Ayers was a cofounder of the Weather Underground, a domestic terrorist group that bombed federal buildings in the 60s and 70s. Ayers helped launch Obama's political career and is currently an education professor at the University of Illinois at Chicago. Strange world we live in!

GM, the blacks will riot either way. They'll riot if he loses, they'll riot if he wins, either
way theres going to be looting and burning, its the way they are.
Obamas deep inner ties are muslim, I can't believe you democrats can be so damn stupid.

The below Scripture is an example of political deception and what happened. It is a very sad and hair raising story. Johanan tried to warn Gedaliah the govenor about the evils of Ishmael, but Gedaliah did not believe Johanan until to late. May we be careful who and what we believe.

(Jer 40:13) Moreover Johanan the son of Kareah, and all the captains of the forces that were in the fields, came to Gedaliah to Mizpah,
14 And said unto him, Dost thou certainly know that Baalis the king of the Ammonites hath sent Ishmael the son of Nethaniah to slay thee? But Gedaliah the son of Ahikam believed them not.
15 Then Johanan the son of Kareah spake to Gedaliah in Mizpah secretly, saying, Let me go, I pray thee, and I will slay Ishmael the son of Nethaniah, and no man shall know it: wherefore should he slay thee, that all the Jews which are gathered unto thee should be scattered, and the remnant in Judah perish?
16 But Gedaliah the son of Ahikam said unto Johanan the son of Kareah, Thou shalt not do this thing: for thou speakest falsely of Ishmael.


41:1 Now it came to pass in the seventh month, that Ishmael the son of Nethaniah the son of Elishama, of the seed royal, and the princes of the king, even ten men with him, came unto Gedaliah the son of Ahikam to Mizpah; and there they did eat bread together in Mizpah.
2 Then arose Ishmael the son of Nethaniah, and the ten men that were with him, and smote Gedaliah the son of Ahikam the son of Shaphan with the sword, and slew him, whom the king of Babylon had made governor over the land.
3 Ishmael also slew all the Jews that were with him, even with Gedaliah, at Mizpah, and the Chaldeans that were found there, and the men of war.
4 And it came to pass the second day after he had slain Gedaliah, and no man knew it,
5 That there came certain from Shechem, from Shiloh, and from Samaria, even fourscore men, having their beards shaven, and their clothes rent, and having cut themselves, with offerings and incense in their hand, to bring them to the house of the LORD.
6 And Ishmael the son of Nethaniah went forth from Mizpah to meet them, weeping all along as he went: and it came to pass, as he met them, he said unto them, Come to Gedaliah the son of Ahikam.
7 And it was so, when they came into the midst of the city, that Ishmael the son of Nethaniah slew them, and cast them into the midst of the pit, he, and the men that were with him.
8 But ten men were found among them that said unto Ishmael, Slay us not: for we have treasures in the field, of wheat, and of barley, and of oil, and of honey. So he forbare, and slew them not among their brethren.
9 Now the pit wherein Ishmael had cast all the dead bodies of the men, whom he had slain because of Gedaliah, was it which Asa the king had made for fear of Baasha king of Israel: and Ishmael the son of Nethaniah filled it with them that were slain.
10 Then Ishmael carried away captive all the residue of the people that were in Mizpah, even the king’s daughters, and all the people that remained in Mizpah, whom Nebuzaradan the captain of the guard had committed to Gedaliah the son of Ahikam: and Ishmael the son of Nethaniah carried them away captive, and departed to go over to the Ammonites.

May God have mercy on us.

This is what makes me wonder about Obama. He did a switheroo when he realized that the church he had been attending wasn't looking good to the US people. In the US, ALL presidents have had some kind of church affiliation. (at least all that I can think of..especially within the last 50 years.) It helps them to get some endorsements and seem like a "good God fearing man." Obama isn't dumb. He knows that if he wants to aspire to be President, having a church affiliation will help him. He knows that the majority of the US citizens (at least up to this point) will not support a person who openly claims to be Muslim as a presidential candidate.

Lark:

Give up this fearmongering already. Obama attended his church for 20 years before terminating his membership. If he is a secret Muslim, you'd hardly expect that he would be a member of, and attending, a Christian church for all those years, just to make himself more palatable to the American public. Yeah, so his minister has some far-fetched views. But think about the ministers that Republican presidents tend to cosy up to: They've got some pretty wacked-out views as well, e.g. Falwell, Robertson and others of their ilk.

<<Yeah, so his minister has some far-fetched views.>> far-fetched? I didn't think the left had much problem with Jeremiah Wright's message....just the fact that it got out.

Steven.. He may not be a "secret muslim" like is rumored... BUT I am betting that he would give more preference to the Muslims than what he would give to the Jews. Do I have I have any proof? No, not yet. However.. the fact that he chose to switch churches as soon as it went public what his minister was saying.. DEFINITELY flashes a red light to me. Which says to me again.. that if he thinks the public is going to have a negative view of what he does or thinks.. then he will switch to something that is more accepted.

I continue to be amazed. It is apparent that the primary focus of this forum is to bring attention to the unjust actions and abuse of a people that allegedly misinterpret various Bible scripture and I don't necessarily disagree with the intent of this forum as long as the dialogue is kept in the confines of the golden rule and there is respect for one anothers views. But what confounds me is that we can discuss every possible angle of scripture and try to interpret what the writer really meant and come to an understanding of how God wants us to live our lives and serve Him to the best of our ability, but when it comes to the political arena, some want to swing to the far left in support of individuals that disdain reverence for God and His commandments and instruction and use deceit and lies to accomplish their ends, which is basically a lust for power and honor and greed and to perpetuate their ideals of socialism.
I believe we would all agree that we hold in high regard our freedoms in our respective nations as Americans and Canadians, or any other free country. As Americans we seem to be teetering on the edge of possible drastic changes in many areas, including a new president. So to me it is contradictory and a complete disconnect that on the one hand it is vitally important to follow the Bible in every jot and tittle and on the other hand express support for those that have very little use for the Bible and denounce God whenever possible. Am I making any sense here, or am I misguided?

GM, what you're saying makes perfect sense at face value.  However, there are a number of subtle assumptions built into your viewpoint.  Such as...

1)  It is an assumption to say that (political) conservatives are somehow inherently more God-fearing than (political) liberals.
2)  You're making an assumption that a more conservative government leadership will somehow be better for all aspects of our lives.
3)  You seem to be making an assumption that all political liberals want to immediately bring complete socialization to every aspect of life.

These assumptions seem to be the fear tactics of the right.  I'm not saying that you are doing this personally, but I think you have been influenced by this.  Right-wingers seem to live and operate in fear.  Here's a list of fears:
1)  Fear of non-white races
2)  Fear of non-Christians
3)  Fear of not having a gun nearby
4)  Fear of social programs that help the poor or disadvantaged
5)  Fear of any kind of government regulation
6)  Fear of facing the fact of global warming

Just so I'm not misunderstood, I want the freedom to be a Christian, and I don't want to see those rights eroded by government regulation.  However, I can also understand that we (Christians) can't just cram our ideas and values down everyone else's throat.  The reality is that we share this country with many different religions and races.  Our laws must provide protection, tolerance, and equality for all.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal.  For me, it's not about trying to support someone who is against religious freedom.  I'm just very weary of the heavy-handed policies that have been used for the past 8 years.

May I point out....Clinton was president for 8 years, and we did not become overnight socialists.

...and, during Clinton's tenure as POTUS, the U.S. national debt decreased, in rather sharp contrast to the 8 years of the Shrub.

Where did you come up with this BS BrentD??

1) Fear of non-white races------This is total bullcrap
2) Fear of non-Christians-----More bullcrap
3) Fear of not having a gun nearby----Uhh...read the 2nd Ammendment to the Constitution
4) Fear of social programs that help the poor or disadvantaged----Where in the Constitution do you find that it is the responsibility of federal government to administer wealth redistribution?
5) Fear of any kind of government regulation----More bullcrap...of course we need a certain amount of regulation.
6) Fear of facing the fact of global warming----we don't fear the fact that the globe is warming. It's been warming and cooling for eons...what's to fear?

You need to get a grip pal.

BrentD, does the Constitution of the United States of American limit what the federal government may do?

" during Clinton's tenure as POTUS, the U.S. national debt decreased,"


Yeah, but, White House B.J.'s and adultrey increased. National debt when down because of daddy Shrubs
policys. Clinton did nothing. Zero. Oh, yeah he did,, he made sure you could still legally run a baby
butchering shop.

"Do I have any proof? No, not yet. However..."

Just a little more thinking like that and there is still hope for a place at the main table for you.

Where did you come up with this BS BrentD??
I made it up based on my observations of the information that I see and read put out by Republicans.

1) Fear of non-white races------This is total bullcrap
Well, just look at the videos posted here.  They are full of anti-black, anti-Muslim propaganda.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/419882/thread/1223736143/last-1223830910/Obama+%26amp%3B+Black+liberation+theology

2) Fear of non-Christians-----More bullcrap
Same answer as #1

3) Fear of not having a gun nearby----Uhh...read the 2nd Ammendment to the Constitution
Ok, fine.  Have your gun.  I know the constitution gives us the right to keep and bear arms.  Just don't whine when a whole restaurant or school full of innocent people gets mowed down by some guy distraught over losing his girlfriend.

4) Fear of social programs that help the poor or disadvantaged----Where in the Constitution do you find that it is the responsibility of federal government to administer wealth redistribution?
The republican's answer to social assistance is that it should come from "private sources".  Now just how would this be administered with fairness?  The responsibility of any civilized society to provide assistance to the poor.  I guarantee you most churches and non-profits could not do an adequate job of this.

5) Fear of any kind of government regulation----More bullcrap...of course we need a certain amount of regulation.
A "certain amount"?  How much would that be?

6) Fear of facing the fact of global warming----we don't fear the fact that the globe is warming. It's been warming and cooling for eons...what's to fear?
I'll tell you what's to fear.  If it doesn't get under control, we will have huge ecological and economical impact in the next generation.  The natural forces of capitalistic economies that are driven by profits will only make it worse.

You need to get a grip pal.
Well, maybe.....but I'm just telling you the message I see in the right-wing propaganda.

In the big picture, I really think our political world has become far too polarized.  We probably agree on most things.  We all want freedom, democracy, and security.  I think the philosophies of how to achieve those goals are just different.

BrentD... your kinda funny on your points.

I must not be the typical right wing conservative....

1) Fear of non-white races
Let's see.. I'm married to a black man, have a Korean, Thailand and Brazilian currently living in our house... OH yeah... I'm REALLY fearfuly of non-white races.


2) Fear of non-Christians
Hmm... gotta say.. that's not legit. either.. Our Thailand exchange student bio.. said she is a practicing Budhist. I'm not fearing anything there.

3) Fear of not having a gun nearby
Oh boy.. this one is good. We don't even own a gun. So.. I don't even know where the closest gun is. (Maybe the police station?)

4) Fear of social programs that help the poor or disadvantaged
Nope... gotta say.. that one doesn't work here either. I work for a company that IS a part of a social program that helps the poor and disadvantaged.

5) Fear of any kind of government regulation
Nope.. that one doesn't fly either... The school my kids attend... is regulated by thte government because it is a certified by the state board of education in Kansas. (Which btw.. it is a christian school.)

6) Fear of facing the fact of global warming
Now that's a wild one. Yeah.. it is warming up. I expect it to get quite a bit warmer yet. Not fearing that one.


btw.. a person could turn all of your points and direct them straight back at the left wing liberals.

i.e.
1) Fear of non-white races (Fear of offending non-white races.)
2) Fear of non-Christians (Fear of Christians)
3) Fear of not having a gun nearby (Fear of having a gun nearby)
4) Fear of social programs that help the poor or disadvantaged (Fear of programs allowing the poor and disadavanted to help themselves.)
5) Fear of any kind of government regulation (Fear of non-government regulation.)
6) Fear of facing the fact of global warming (Fear of facing the fact that global warming will happen regardless of all the efforts that man does.)

by Steve,
>...and, during Clinton's tenure as POTUS, the U.S. national debt decreased, in rather sharp contrast to the 8 years of the Shrub.<

Steve, Nas is right, that G H W Bush played a big part in a healthy economy, but I will give B Clinton a lot of credit for balancing the budget and trying hard to keep spending in check. Even though Clinton made a lot of mistakes personally and the alleged killing of people he didn't want around, I would still prefer him any day over Obama. From all I know about Obama and the vibes I get from him is that he is a sleeper, that should he get into the White House he would change the political landscape of Washington DC to where it would be unrecognizable in several years, especially with a democratic congress. Just think of all the pressure that would be brought to bear on him by all those such as Louis Farrakan, Jesse Jackson, the Muslim countries that would depend on him to carry out their agenda. He simply scares the beejeebies out of me.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=77539>

Lark, maybe you're actually a Democrat.    Better take a look at the Republican propaganda and see if you really agree with it.  Sounds like you have more in common with the Democrats.  Don't keep being a Republican just 'cause your Mom told you to.

Yeah Lark, become a demo like Brent D , it'll give you some experienced in how to kill unborn babies,
then just dump them in the trash can, laugh, and collect your money.

by BrentD,
>4) Fear of social programs that help the poor or disadvantaged<

RM, I think a few taxpayer funded social programs are in order as it applies to Social Security, Disability, medical care for poor families and special needs people. I would lots rather have it spent there than give billions to countries that are against us and all the wasteful spending.

But universal health care would be a disaster. My friends,(McCain lingo there,ha)it would break all the rules of supply and demand and the cost would be astronomical.

Brent D. .. My parents haven't told me to be a republican or democrat. They taught me to look at the actions & words of the candidates (i.e. how they vote and what they say.) I tend to vote for the one that I believe actions and words closest line up to how I believe God wants me to live.

 

Where did you come up with this BS BrentD??

I made it up based on my observations of the information that I see and read put out by Republicans.

1) Fear of non-white races------This is total bullcrap

Well, just look at the videos posted here.  They are full of anti-black, anti-Muslim propaganda.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/419882/thread/1223736143/last-1223830910/Obama+%26amp%3B+Black+liberation+theology

So we can't expose Obama's close ties to the black liberation movement without coming off as racist? Come on, you guys are the ones that have made race an issue in this election. I couldn't care less what the skin color is of our President as long as he is a conservative.

2) Fear of non-Christians-----More bullcrap

Same answer as #1

Same bullcrap...You have not shown any basis for your charge.

3) Fear of not having a gun nearby----Uhh...read the 2nd Ammendment to the Constitution

Ok, fine.  Have your gun.  I know the constitution gives us the right to keep and bear arms.  Just don't whine when a whole restaurant or school full of innocent people gets mowed down by some guy distraught over losing his girlfriend.

I'd probably whine if someone didn't take him out in a timely manner.

4) Fear of social programs that help the poor or disadvantaged----Where in the Constitution do you find that it is the responsibility of federal government to administer wealth redistribution?

The republican's answer to social assistance is that it should come from "private sources".  Now just how would this be administered with fairness?  The responsibility of any civilized society to provide assistance to the poor.  I guarantee you most churches and non-profits could not do an adequate job of this.

For the most part our socialism programs have increased poverty. They have created dependence on the government. Churches, communities and we as individuals have been conditioned to leave it up to the gov to distribute wealth. It would work better than what is in place today, only the feds wouldn't have control over it.

5) Fear of any kind of government regulation----More bullcrap...of course we need a certain amount of regulation.

A "certain amount"?  How much would that be?

I don't know .... cut the federal regs back a hundred years for starters and turn it over to the states and local control. The feds have waay over stepped their bounds!

6) Fear of facing the fact of global warming----we don't fear the fact that the globe is warming. It's been warming and cooling for eons...what's to fear?

I'll tell you what's to fear.  If it doesn't get under control, we will have huge ecological and economical impact in the next generation.  The natural forces of capitalistic economies that are driven by profits will only make it worse.

<> And who do you propose to put in control of our climate? We can't change the climate cycles of earth in any measurable way! Thank God the feds can't screw our climate system up! They may bankrupt us trying to but at least the damage will end there.

 

You need to get a grip pal.

Well, maybe.....but I'm just telling you the message I see in the right-wing propaganda.

In the big picture, I really think our political world has become far too polarized.  We probably agree on most things.  We all want freedom, democracy, and security.  I think the philosophies of how to achieve those goals are just different.

I agree with the last two sentences.

Honest hard working Americans built this country up, liberals and socialism are tearing it down. If we elect Obama as president it will be akin to treating a heroin overdose patient with another shot of heroin. I'm done with this thread.

Source:  http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/13/campbell.brown.obama/index.html

NEW YORK (CNN) -- You may find it hard to believe that this remains an issue in this campaign, but it does.

The candidates, both candidates, are still getting questions about Barack Obama's ethnicity and religion. If you are even semi-informed, then by now you already know that of course, Barack Obama is an American.

Of course, Barack Obama is a Christian. Yet just a few days ago, there was a woman at a rally for John McCain incorrectly calling Obama an Arab:

Woman at rally: I don't trust Obama. I have read about him and he's an Arab.

Sen. John McCain: No ma'am, no ma'am. He's a decent family man, citizen that I just happen to have disagreements with on fundamental issues. That's what this campaign is all about. He's not, thank you.

Now, I commend Sen. McCain for correcting that woman, for setting the record straight. But I do have one question -- so what if he was?

So what if Obama was Arab or Muslim? So what if John McCain was Arab or Muslim? Would it matter?

When did that become a disqualifier for higher office in our country? When did Arab and Muslim become dirty words? The equivalent of dishonorable or radical?

Whenever this gets raised, the implication is that there is something wrong with being an Arab-American or a Muslim. And the media is complicit here, too.  Watch Campbell's commentary »

We've all been too quick to accept the idea that calling someone Muslim is a slur.

I feel like I am stating the obvious here, but apparently it needs to be said: There is a difference between radical Muslims who support jihad against America and Muslims who want to practice their religion freely and have normal lives like anyone else. iReport.com: iReporter pleads with voters to 'stop the racism'

There are more than 1.2 million Arab-Americans and about 7 million Muslim-Americans, former Cabinet secretaries, members of Congress, successful business people, normal average Americans from all walks of life.

These are the people being maligned here, and we can only imagine how this conversation plays in the Muslim world. We can't tolerate this ignorance -- not in the media, not on the campaign trail.

Of course, he's not an Arab. Of course, he's not a Muslim. But honestly, it shouldn't matter.

Oops, I meant to post on the other thread, "Obama Spreads the Weath around". See that thread for my post.

Brent.. why shouldn't it matter? If a president's religion plays a part in his decision making (AND it ALWAYS does) than of course it matters.

Lark, I'm glad you challenge me on this stuff, because it makes me think and read.

My idea is that government and religion should be separate.  IF religion truly plays a part in a president's decision-making, then I can certainly see why you would rather choose someone with a Christian background.  However, I don't believe that the president of a secular government should be making decisions based on their religion in the first place.  It just isn't a good basis for governmental decision making.  It may be good for personal decisions, but really has very little place in governmental affairs.  The role of government is not to defend or promote religion.  I think this is a fundamental and serious misconception of many Republicans....that somehow the government is here to promote or facilitate Christian ideals.  No, government is here to protect the freedom of all religions, whether you and I agree with them or not, as long as those practices are peacable and do not interfere with the same freedoms for other people.

The first amendment of the Constitution reads "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . .".  This (to me) means that laws may neither promote nor prohibit religion.  This is primarily why religion cannot be "promoted" in the public school system.  Whether we like it or not, this is the foundation of our Constitution.  I think for many years, the high percentage of Christians in the US allowed government and religion to get intermixed, which it never should have been.  With the percentage of Christians declining (for better or for worse), we are now forced to go back and examine the original intent of the founding documents.

<<The first amendment of the Constitution reads "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . .". >>

BrentD, there was no law established that made prayer in school mandatory. It would seem to me that by banning Christian prayers in school government is "prohibiting the free excercise thereof". Why does Congress open every session with a prayer? Prayers are offered during many official ceremonies. Big deal, they aren't forcing anyone to pray.

I want my freedom back.

BrentD... read your post way late.. and won't have time to respond until sometime this weekend. (And I do want to respond on this.)

BrentD... Your idea sounds good and theory but putting it into practice has a totally different outcome. Governments are ran by people. Here in the US our laws are made by popular vote. These people are ALL voting off of their ideas of what right and wrong are. You can put someone in office who is an atheist. Just because he is an atheist DOES NOT mean that he will make judgements that are fair for everyone.


"The first amendment of the Constitution reads "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . .". This (to me) means that laws may neither promote nor prohibit religion. This is primarily why religion cannot be "promoted" in the public school system."

My comment on this... where does the money come from to run our public schools? From Christians AND non-Christians. If Christians are paying their taxes the same as the non-Christians, why shouldn't Christians get a say in their child's education? Right now... the non-christians are getting more of the say so in the education realm. This is why I believe the government should allow the parents to have the vouchers so the Christians and Non-Christians can place their children in a school that promotes their individual beliefs if they would choose to do that.

Btw...our laws against stealing or killing ARE religious laws that the secular government wants to keep because they can see the value in them.

Edited to add: And just because a Christian gets into office does not mean that he will make decisions that are fair to everyone.

Question on this.. is fair always right?

where does the money come from to run our public schools? From Christians AND non-Christians.

This is exactly my point.  Since both Christian and non-Christian taxpayers foot the bill for public schools, it must not promote a religious agenda of any kind.

If Christians are paying their taxes the same as the non-Christians, why shouldn't Christians get a say in their child's education?

They should....and do.  But the critical point is that the say that they get should be about education, not the promotion of religion and morality.  "Religion" encompasses many things that may have been taken for granted at one time.  For example, I remember during my (public) school days, the teacher would line us all up before lunch, and have a Christian prayer.  Now, let's suppose that teacher was a Muslim, should she be allowed to have everyone in the class kneel and say a Muslim noon prayer?  Rather than have that problem, I would be just as comfortable saying that all "prayers" (Christian, Muslim, or anything else) are not allowed as part of structured school activities.  Students have always been free to pray on their own, and can continue doing that.

our laws against stealing or killing ARE religious laws that the secular government wants to keep because they can see the value in them.

Personally, I don't see these laws as inherently religious.  Sure, they do happen to coincide with some religious laws, but are not primarily in place to support the Christian religion.  They're in place to protect the freedom and happiness of all religions. 

Question on this.. is fair always right?

Yes, fair is always right, and should be a guiding principle of all laws.  If there's an exception, I'd like to hear it.  Of course, I hope that goes without saying that we should not be "fair" to criminals, since they have themselves violated the rules of fairness.  But as a general guiding principle, fair is always right.  Justice demands fairness.

Brent..
I believe you are still missing the point.

"it must not promote a religious agenda of any kind." BUT the school system DO promote a religious agenda AND it's not a christian religious agenda. I hope you are not equating just muslim/christian etc, as being religous. There are people who are just as religous about their view of creation as being evolution as there are christians promoting their views in schools. Going from what you say, then they should not teach on the subject of creation in school, because it is a religous issue.

School age children/teens spend more time at school and under the influence of their teacher then what they do at home. Religion and morality play a HUGE part in a childs education. For example.. looking at how the schools are today, as compared to 30 years ago... tells us exactly what happens when you take MORALITY out of the school.

Lark,
Would you feel comfortable with an atheist teaching the religion course?

The problem I see is that people want the school, the church and everyone else to be teaching their kids about Christianity but don't want anyone teaching their kids about sex education.

The parents should have enough depth to their own spiritual life that every day object lessons can be taught. If the kids see you having an enjoyable relationship with Jesus they will desire the same. If they see you worshiping an idol (religion, denomination, church, etc.) they will come to either hate it or become even more idolatrous.

For example very seldom do our kids bow their heads to pray for a meal but sometime before, during or after the meal in the course of the conversation they can be heard to say from their heart "thank you JESUS (with emphasis) for this food this is a great meal". And they'll do the same in a restaurant but the neighbors in adjoining tables probably never even find out what was just said. They are talking to Jesus as if he is sitting right their in their midst which of course they know he is because that is what we taught them. Religious courses would have them make a scene, bow their heads, pray for the meal, the elections, salvation for their friends, pink teddy bears, on and on till everyone in the restaurant has been made aware that you prayed for the food.

OK getting off my high horse...

Could it be that Obams's status is neither Christian or Muslim at heart level but rather a cross between the two and therefore it may be almost a mute point? Could it be that he is more of an intellectual than either of the above? Could it be that he is a real politician and merely power hungery like many others? I have my own questions.

Is it be possible he can become a real statesman for this nation, or do those words clash in mid-sentence? Our gut may speak the truth here but what is the gut saying?

It could be this simple; Obama has a powerful way with words and is actually a road scholar out on a new adventure.

He has not convinced me of any of the above but I do see some evidence. He's smooth. How awake are we?

Can anyone safely vote for someone whom the jury is still out on? Or, are we so feed up on what's in a bush that saftey no longer matters to us? Even if we made a mistake in 2000, it hardly calls for another mistake. It seems to me that McCain should have been our choice in 2000, unless of course there is a larger thing in the making than can be seen on the surface.

We have the same choice before us once again but at a different level.

I do believe that Obama is a decent family man but we're speaking of becoming the most powerful man in the free world.

The real truth does well to decend into the voting booths!

edited to clarify.

Mark.. Of course our beliefs should be taught at home. I also believe it is important to maintain consistency throughout all areas of life, school, home, play etc.

Mark do you live in a large city? How old are your children?